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Old 07-13-2018, 06:03 AM
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Default The Hijacking of Evangelicalism

There is a huge disconnect in what Christian Evangelicals advertise vs how they behave. You need to walk your talk. We are fighting the poor when the root of solving is fighting poverty. There are those who vilify the wrong subject via a political agenda and I am calling out the right who are the obvious culprits. The right (collectively) have co-opted Christianity and to highlight this is to point is the Canonization of Trump by Evangelicals. Sorry, I just don't believe in using God like this. It becomes cultish, IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_co...&v=DMpO74f1BcQ

When we go back to the Bible that all Christians share in common, the word “evangel” shows up on the lips of Jesus when he reads from the prophet Isaiah at the occasion of his first sermon in Luke. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,” Jesus declares, “to proclaim good news [that is, in the Greek, evangel] to the poor.” The root of evangelicalism in Scripture is Jesus’ message of liberation to the poor and marginalized people of the Galilee, who were suffering under Roman occupation.

In Matthew’s Gospel, the Greek “evangel” only occurs in connection to justice for the poor, righteousness, healing society, and treating each other well. ”Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people” (Matthew 4:23); “Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness” (Matthew 9:35); “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and good news is proclaimed to the poor” (Matthew 11:5).
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Old 07-15-2018, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sokpupet View Post
There is a huge disconnect in what Christian Evangelicals advertise vs how they behave. You need to walk your talk. We are fighting the poor when the root of solving is fighting poverty. There are those who vilify the wrong subject via a political agenda and I am calling out the right who are the obvious culprits. The right (collectively) have co-opted Christianity and to highlight this is to point is the Canonization of Trump by Evangelicals. Sorry, I just don't believe in using God like this. It becomes cultish, IMO.
Be careful of those who wield scriptural references to argue temporal policies.

Christianity has covered vows of poverty as well as prosperity gospel revivals. It seldom fails to support whatever the speaker promotes.

Once you start ricocheting between, say, Jesus comforting the poor, not leading a political revolution, saying you'll always have poor people with you, yet praising charity, you can land anywhere you choose, and see obvious culprits all around you.
Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_co...&v=DMpO74f1BcQ

When we go back to the Bible that all Christians share in common, the word “evangel” shows up on the lips of Jesus when he reads from the prophet Isaiah at the occasion of his first sermon in Luke. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,” Jesus declares, “to proclaim good news [that is, in the Greek, evangel] to the poor.” The root of evangelicalism in Scripture is Jesus’ message of liberation to the poor and marginalized people of the Galilee, who were suffering under Roman occupation.

In Matthew’s Gospel, the Greek “evangel” only occurs in connection to justice for the poor, righteousness, healing society, and treating each other well. ”Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people” (Matthew 4:23); “Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness” (Matthew 9:35); “The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and good news is proclaimed to the poor” (Matthew 11:5).
(Speaking of terms, per se, what's become of the word evangelism? What means evangelicalism? Usually when new argot pops up it emits that faint but distinctive aroma of artificial sophistication. But maybe it's just spun from the habit in some regions of accenting the first syllable of words, like INsurance or UMbrella, and Evangelism doesn't work. In any case that's just the tiny hackles on my own neck.)

Rev. Barber you quote has an explicitly earthly assignment for evangelicals:
Real evangelical Christians should be holding a fusion and Biblical critique of judge Kavanaugh asking how he will seek justice for historically marginalized people (those whom the Bible calls the least of these) — women, the millions of sick people in our nation, workers, LGBTQ people and their families, communities of color and the poor who are threatened by voter suppression.
That figures, of course: he bills himself as "President of Repairers of the Breach, co-chair of the Poor People’s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival, & author of The Third Reconstruction."

And Rev. Franklin Graham is listed among Barber's heretics, but I don't hear Franklin meeting this description by Barber:
Quote:
As President Trump nominates Brett Kavanaugh to replace Justice Kennedy on the Supreme Court, many self-appointed spokesmen for evangelicalism are excitedly anticipating a conservative majority that will roll back decisions on marriage equality, women’s rights, civil rights and equal protection under the law. These enthusiasts confess they had to give Trump a mulligan or even “hold their nose” to vote for him, but this is their reward. Since the Brown decision of 1954, little has been more important to religious extremists among white evangelicals than winning control of the Supreme Court.

But their imagined victory lays bare a reality that has long gone unquestioned in America’s public square: that the heirs of the John Birch Society and the Southern Strategy — the 20th century’s Redemption movement — speak for “evangelicalism.” They do not.
Fact is, Sok, Franklin Graham's signature work is "Samaritan's Purse," a charity giving succor and comfort directly to the poor, something Barber would seem to support.

Graham's sin seems to be success itself, plus his praise for anything positive connected with the current president.

That makes Graham an obvious culprit to some, but the declaration that he does not speak for evangelicals is absurd. Does Rev. Barber speak for evangelicals? On what basis? His number of followers? His being holier than Franklin Graham? He may be that; I don't know either man. Barber may also be holier than Louis Farrakhan, but that wouldn't depose Farrakhan as a spokesman for the Nation of Islam.

Chasing blasphemers and heretics is a thankless task. It's better left to the Inquisitors of times past.

Jesus is a personal thing, as both Marilyn Manson and Johnny Cash sang.
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“There's not going to be a 'President Trump.' ” Barack Obama.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." — Ronald Reagan.

“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” — Barack Obama.
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  #3  
Old 07-15-2018, 07:01 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corodon View Post
Be careful of those who wield scriptural references to argue temporal policies.

Christianity has covered vows of poverty as well as prosperity gospel revivals. It seldom fails to support whatever the speaker promotes.

Once you start ricocheting between, say, Jesus comforting the poor, not leading a political revolution, saying you'll always have poor people with you, yet praising charity, you can land anywhere you choose, and see obvious culprits all around you.

(Speaking of terms, per se, what's become of the word evangelism? What means evangelicalism? Usually when new argot pops up it emits that faint but distinctive aroma of artificial sophistication. But maybe it's just spun from the habit in some regions of accenting the first syllable of words, like INsurance or UMbrella, and Evangelism doesn't work. In any case that's just the tiny hackles on my own neck.)

Rev. Barber you quote has an explicitly earthly assignment for evangelicals:
Real evangelical Christians should be holding a fusion and Biblical critique of judge Kavanaugh asking how he will seek justice for historically marginalized people (those whom the Bible calls the least of these) — women, the millions of sick people in our nation, workers, LGBTQ people and their families, communities of color and the poor who are threatened by voter suppression.
That figures, of course: he bills himself as "President of Repairers of the Breach, co-chair of the Poor People’s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival, & author of The Third Reconstruction."

And Rev. Franklin Graham is listed among Barber's heretics, but I don't hear Franklin meeting this description by Barber:
Fact is, Sok, Franklin Graham's signature work is "Samaritan's Purse," a charity giving succor and comfort directly to the poor, something Barber would seem to support.

Graham's sin seems to be success itself, plus his praise for anything positive connected with the current president.

That makes Graham an obvious culprit to some, but the declaration that he does not speak for evangelicals is absurd. Does Rev. Barber speak for evangelicals? On what basis? His number of followers? His being holier than Franklin Graham? He may be that; I don't know either man. Barber may also be holier than Louis Farrakhan, but that wouldn't depose Farrakhan as a spokesman for the Nation of Islam.

Chasing blasphemers and heretics is a thankless task. It's better left to the Inquisitors of times past.

Jesus is a personal thing, as both Marilyn Manson and Johnny Cash sang.
I do not see anything here with which I would disagree. My rub is with politicians who use the bible, in a nation of may faiths, to chastise and vilify any group of people. You know they do. My first experience, shockingly I might add, was Liddy Dole v Kay Hagen in NC.


This is the BS that gets my goat.

“I would cite you to the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13, to obey the laws of the government because God has ordained them for the purpose of order,” Sessions said. “Orderly and lawful processes are good in themselves and protect the weak and lawful.”

Later, White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders summed up the same idea: “It is very biblical to enforce the law.”


Yet there is another tradition of interpretation that has unfortunately proven more prevalent: that for which the Bible serves as a source of covetous power.

Historically, such interpreters filter every verse through a lens that privileges acquisition of assets and authority over altruism and our own comfort over compassion. Hyperbolic denunciations of particular enemies in scripture become a universal license to hate and condemn others. Paul’s defense of slavery, patriarchy and imperial power are used to sanctify an unjust status quo. Martin Luther’s condemnation of the Jews as a “whoring” people, the Spanish Crown’s justification of genocide against Indians in the Americas, and Andrew Jackson’s defense of chattel slavery and the Indian Removal Act of 1830 are just a few notable examples of perverted biblical interpretation. No wonder so many pages of the Bible are filled with the blood of anti-Semitism, racism, sexism and colonialism.http://time.com/5318938/donald-trump-jeff-sessions-bible-evangelicals-immigration/


I realize this might get fingers wagging and pointing; but I am not some millennial speaking here from my parents basement. I, thankfully, was raised in a loving church; but I do not recognize it any longer. We are a nation of many religions, many ethnicities, many cultures. We do not need to assimilate to the vision of the 1% and in fear of burning in hell should we choose otherwise. I, also, am curiously amazed at the language of politicians on minute and the sitting down with Netanyahu the next in solidarity. For me...my God does not and never did favor one group of people over another. That premise is antithesis to the New Testament, IMO. *not a bible scholar; but I have some working knowledge.

As far as taking God off our money and from the pledge of Allegiance, I most certainly do understand doing just that as people in positions of power have lost the vision of our founders and rewritten history through their beliefs. Much like I believe the bible was formed. If you are going to abuse the word, then there are those who will agree it should be removed. "God" is as personal as any verse and topic/person in the bible and should not be lifted from the page and used as a club against another to get in line, IMO.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:01 PM
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Flags go up for me whenever someone cites Paul. He wasn't God, he was a man of his times, inspired (some of his writing is incomparable) but not divine.

And it's true that God is made in the image of man. The Blues Brothers are one thing, but the Aztec butchers were also on a mission from God.

Even so, I believe God is indispensable to a western democracy, insofar as God represents a moral order superior to the invention of man. I subscribe to the words now ascribed to MLK Jr, and woven into the Oval Office rug, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

One example, human sacrifice to the gods, so common millenniums past, is gone. Aztec rituals are no more. I credit Christianity for that, but MLK's slogan applies.

For all its flaws, faith remains our only insurance against the vanity of man.
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“There's not going to be a 'President Trump.' ” Barack Obama.

"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." — Ronald Reagan.

“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” — Barack Obama.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Corodon View Post
Flags go up for me whenever someone cites Paul. He wasn't God, he was a man of his times, inspired (some of his writing is incomparable) but not divine.

And it's true that God is made in the image of man. The Blues Brothers are one thing, but the Aztec butchers were also on a mission from God.

Even so, I believe God is indispensable to a western democracy, insofar as God represents a moral order superior to the invention of man. I subscribe to the words now ascribed to MLK Jr, and woven into the Oval Office rug, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."

One example, human sacrifice to the gods, so common millenniums past, is gone. Aztec rituals are no more. I credit Christianity for that, but MLK's slogan applies.

For all its flaws, faith remains our only insurance against the vanity of man.
Faith maybe; but certainly not Christianity, which is fraught with the vanity of man.

The only reason I am using the bible at all is due to it being used as a club by the CCR (Republicans in general) against the Left. Do you deny the Republican Party et. al. have co-opted Christianity insomuch as battle field? Do you not agree the right have come together and denigrated public education (not secular enough), teachers (even you should see this easily enough), anti-regulation (anti-environment *fracking, drill baby drill *taxing green energy *consumer protection left to the consumer to be held 100% accountable and not predatory businesses), etc. etc. etc. I don't think one need be a "Christian" to have morals, or good will toward men. We have many religions globally and here at home. I believe we are best served by leaving religion out of politics all together.
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:00 PM
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We don't disagree all that sharply here. But a couple of clarifications:
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Faith maybe; but certainly not Christianity, which is fraught with the vanity of man.
Yes, Christianity. The Christianity of slavery, inquisitions and crusades. Other major religions are also deeply flawed, since as I wrote we do make God in the image of man, and "organized religion," as critics like to call it, easily becomes a tool of the powerful.

But yet. The essential ingredient of the major religions is the idea that we mortals are not the final arbiters of justice, that morals and ethics exist independent and superior to our best insights and/or schemes.

Churchill's quip is famous, about democracy being the worst possible form of government except for all the others. Likewise, governments that reject Nature's God are far more dangerous to humanity than the others, flaws and all.
Quote:
The only reason I am using the bible at all is due to it being used as a club by the CCR (Republicans in general) against the Left. Do you deny the Republican Party et. al. have co-opted Christianity insomuch as battle field? Do you not agree the right have come together and denigrated public education (not secular enough), teachers (even you should see this easily enough), anti-regulation (anti-environment *fracking, drill baby drill *taxing green energy *consumer protection left to the consumer to be held 100% accountable and not predatory businesses), etc. etc. etc.
I guess rhetorically speaking it would be an "appeal to authority," and yes, it's been abused by conservatives.

And by liberals, often with the idea that if you were a true Christian you'd support Democratic policies. Let the little children come unto be, over the border, etc.

Quote:
I don't think one need be a "Christian" to have morals, or good will toward men. We have many religions globally and here at home. I believe we are best served by leaving religion out of politics all together.
It might be easier to get money out of politics.

The distance between our republic and a true theocracy is vast enough so I don't worry too much about it. After all the Constitution DOES prohibit laws establishing official religions, the immediate experience of our Founders.

It would require true fascism to drive religion out of public life, and were we to succeed we'd be much the worse for it.
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“There's not going to be a 'President Trump.' ” Barack Obama.

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“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” — Barack Obama.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Corodon View Post
We don't disagree all that sharply here. But a couple of clarifications:Yes, Christianity. The Christianity of slavery, inquisitions and crusades. Other major religions are also deeply flawed, since as I wrote we do make God in the image of man, and "organized religion," as critics like to call it, easily becomes a tool of the powerful.

But yet. The essential ingredient of the major religions is the idea that we mortals are not the final arbiters of justice, that morals and ethics exist independent and superior to our best insights and/or schemes.

Churchill's quip is famous, about democracy being the worst possible form of government except for all the others. Likewise, governments that reject Nature's God are far more dangerous to humanity than the others, flaws and all.
I guess rhetorically speaking it would be an "appeal to authority," and yes, it's been abused by conservatives.

And by liberals, often with the idea that if you were a true Christian you'd support Democratic policies. Let the little children come unto be, over the border, etc. That is a bit hyperbolic, IMO. The Democrats platform differs from the Republican platform. And for all the hyperbole I would like to reduce my perspective to this as I see a distinctive difference: if companies want freedom from government intrusion including fines & regulations, then maybe they should self govern. Ex. PG&E Also, our immigration problem could have been/should have been solved decades ago; but for both sides interference. How? Holding the AMERICAN companies/individuals accountable for hiring them. This would have been much easier and less costly; but now, we have dreamers, families, and military who are decent and tax paying citizens who now rise being torn apart &/or deported. Trump's "No Tolerance Policy" went from allowing the "catch and release" to everyone coming across (legal POE or illegal POE) as criminals, rapists, drug traffickers, child traffickers and bleeding this meme into those here for years leading a noncriminal life comparing all young people with MS-13. We OWE them. Personally, I understand the influx asking asylum from unstable and criminally run countries to our south. I also believe the USA (both parties) has some responsibility in their instability. Also, the left support Human Rights over the policy and actions of those on the left. I say, stay in your lane. Live an let live. Hypothetically, my gay child isn't going to "infect" your gay child. Who are those who have called the police on minorities across this country for no good reason? I believe you can be Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. It is not my business what another woman does with her body and under the care of a physician. Stay in your lane. You are not responsible for others salvation; but what party wants to be involved in a woman's body while doing nothing to men and their ED issues? So, I feel your comment is a broad brush.

It might be easier to get money out of politics. Definitely; but who voted for Citizen's United? That was the WORST SCOTUS decision EVER! That is singularly the open door to monies from other countries to flow into and influence campaigns; especially when campaigns seem to be measured on how much as candidate has in their war chest. I cringe every time I hear anyone for any candidate brag about how much $ they have raised. Makes my skin crawl.

The distance between our republic and a true theocracy is vast enough so I don't worry too much about it. After all the Constitution DOES prohibit laws establishing official religions, the immediate experience of our Founders.

It would require true fascism to drive religion out of public life, and were we to succeed we'd be much the worse for it.
Again, we are facing the same "self-governing" issue. Politicians & churches have been conflated and acting within the attitude of "victim". No one is trying to destroy religion; but asking that religion be left out of politics.
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