McCain: "I hate the gooks"

[AlonzoMourning23]

Just a reminder of what we may encounter if McCain gets the nomination:

Arizona Sen. John McCain refused to apologize yesterday for his use of a racial slur to condemn the North Vietnamese prison guards who tortured and held him captive during the war.

"I hate the gooks," McCain said yesterday in response to a question from reporters aboard his campaign bus. "I will hate them as long as I live."

McCain, a former Navy pilot who spent five years in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp, was questioned about the language because of a story last month in the Nation magazine reporting his continued use of the slur.

Since then, reports of McCain's language have been circulating on Internet chat sites and e-mails among Asian Americans, many of whom find the the term offensive and inappropriate for an elected official.

McCain's appeal to voters has been as a wartime hero and a feisty politician who speaks his mind and damns the consequences. But his comments on the eve of the key South Carolina primary show the candidate's vaunted "straight talk" in another light.

"The use of a racist slur can't be acceptable for any national leader, regardless of his background," said Diane Chin, executive director of the San Francisco-based Chinese for Affirmative Action. "For someone running for president not to recognize the power of words is a problem."

While McCain's words may have little effect in conservative South Carolina, where few Asian Americans live, they could come back to haunt him in other states.

"Historically, straight talkers who say things off the top of their heads eventually hang themselves with those sorts of remarks," said Bruce Cain, a political scientist at the University of California at Berkeley.

"While it might not hurt him now, Democrats are not going to have any hesitation about using this stuff to string him up later."

TERM FOR HIS CAPTORS

McCain made no apologies yesterday.

"I was referring to my prison guards," McCain said, "and I will continue to refer to them in language that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends."

McCain made it clear that his anger extends only toward his captors. As a senator, he was one of the leaders of the postwar effort to normalize U.S. relations with Vietnam.

Campaign officials do not expect the controversy to hurt McCain, either in tomorrow's South Carolina primary or later in the campaign.

"If people understood the context, they wouldn't be upset," Mike Murphy, a senior adviser to the campaign, said last night.

But the racial slur used by the senator has a long, painful history that is felt by many Asian Americans.

The word "gook" was first used in 1899 by American soldiers fighting Filipino insurgents. During the Korean War, the term was aimed at Koreans and Chinese. It was directed at the Vietnamese when Americans were fighting in Vietnam. It is now used as a slur toward any Asian or Pacific Islander.

The Arizona senator prides himself on running an open campaign. He is surrounded by reporters, television cameras and tape recorders perhaps more than any presidential candidate in history. Reporters are given full access to the candidate between each campaign stop on a customized bus purposefully dubbed the "Straight Talk Express."

The bus, which also carries his top staff and often his wife, Cindy, is crammed with network anchors and local newspaper reporters, who endlessly engage McCain in what amounts to a news conference on wheels.

The comments are usually recorded and always on the record.

Sometimes the questions are pointed and serious. Sometimes they are not.

McCain has declared on his bus, "I hate the French." He often begins meetings with Californians joking, "I hate Californians," noting that they steal Arizona's water and lure his constituents away in the summer.

MCCAIN'S IMPRISONMENT

But those comments are clearly in jest. Yesterday's were not.

McCain was captured after his A-4 Skyhawk was shot down over Hanoi on Oct. 26, 1967. During the time he was held, he was brutally tortured by his captors, finally reaching the point where he was unable to resist signing a "confession."

McCain and his fellow prisoners suffered terribly in the prison camp. In the crowd at yesterday's rally in Greenville was retired Adm. Robert Fuller, who was in prison with McCain at the infamous "Hanoi Hilton."

Fuller, who lives in Jacksonville Beach, Fla., spoke informally of the despair of living in single cells, where the only form of contact was by an ingenious code devised by the prisoners. Fuller said prisoners were sometimes tortured for as many as six days. When they returned, he said, the others would send messages of support by tapping on the wall.

"They would be put in ropes for six days, and they would confess," Fuller said. "When they came back to their cell, guys would tap on the wall, `We love you. I wish we could give you a hug.' "

The horrors of the past cannot be an excuse for hurting people in the present, said Guy Aoki, president of the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, an anti-defamation group.

"If Sen. McCain had been captured by Nigerians, could he call those people `niggers' and think he wasn't going to offend everyone who is black?" Akoi asked. "We can all feel for what he went through, but if that's his level of sensitivity, I'm very disappointed."

McCain usually treats his experience as a prisoner of war as a terrible time in his life, but a period he has moved beyond. At times, he even uses it as a punch line for jokes.

At a pancake breakfast recently, he said he had gone with his daughter to the MTV Music Awards, "and that was the greatest assault on my senses since I was in prison."

Yesterday's comments made it clear that McCain had neither forgotten, nor forgiven, his captors.

"I will call right now, my interrogator that tortured me, a gook," McCain said. "(I can't believe that) anybody doesn't believe these interrogators and prison guards were cruel and sadistic people who deserve the worst appellations possible."

McCain said he does not consider the comment an epithet.

"Gook," he said, "is the kindest appellation I can give."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL

[Tharagor]

With any luck it won't matter and we'll have a reprieve after eight years of a republican White House.

[potter]

If I remember right he was tortured in Nam or Korea maybe? That's why he hates them.

We can expect the same from those we are currently torturing...life long hatred.

[BoogyMan]

potter, McCain was stabbed in the leg and abdomen AFTER capture and was left to die from his wounds in a cell, he was tougher than they thought. Comparing the US to that kind of activity is simply wrong.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Uh....... didn't our people take photo's of themselves giving a thumbs up over prisoners they killed as mementos? Seems like some of our guys did the same thing to prisoners.

[PatrickHenry]

Still, using the term gooks to refer to his captors and torturers is akin to using other racial slurs.

Would it be acceptable to say that you hate niggers or kikes? Simply because members of those racial groups were your torturers?

[BoogyMan]

Uh....... didn't our people take photo's of themselves giving a thumbs up over prisoners they killed as mementos? Seems like some of our guys did the same thing to prisoners.


Have you proven that was an ongoing thing as it apparently was with our POWs from Nam? I don't think so. It was dealt with Zo, the captors in Nam were not.

[potter]

Still, using the term gooks to refer to his captors and torturers is akin to using other racial slurs.

Would it be acceptable to say that you hate niggers or kikes? Simply because members of those racial groups were your torturers?



I guess that depends on your ability to turn the other cheek.

[AlonzoMourning23]

The reports of abuse by no means ended, they just ended in that prison.

Honestly we're still getting reports of what our soldiers did in Vietnam, it will likely be a long time before we can really say, with any certainty, to what extent the abuse was or wasn't occurring in Iraq.

[micfranklin]

Seeing as how he was tortured by Vietnamese during Vietnam I can see where he's coming from. But that doesn't make it okay, or any more okay if he were to call blacks "niggres" for getting in a fight with them.

[PatrickHenry]

Is torture kept secret, Boogy?

Or is it an open secret?

How about extra-judicial execution?

You tell me.

[BoogyMan]

The reports of abuse by no means ended, they just ended in that prison.

Honestly we're still getting reports of what our soldiers did in Vietnam, it will likely be a long time before we can really say, with any certainty, to what extent the abuse was or wasn't occurring in Iraq.


This is a smokescreen to detract from what McCain went through Zo.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is it that we didn't treat people like that in vietnam? Hell some of our soldiers threw old men off cliffs and shot up little kids for fun.

Or is it that we may be treating prisoners in Iraq in a similar manner that McCain was treated?

The guy is running for President, he's not some anonymous war vet. A presidential candidate has certain standards.

[BoogyMan]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Is it that we didn't treat people like that in vietnam? Hell some of our soldiers threw old men off cliffs and shot up little kids for fun.

You miss my point, I am focusing on McCain who was without a doubt abused in horrendous ways and there is no denying that fact.

Or is it that we may be treating prisoners in Iraq in a similar manner that McCain was treated?

I am asking you to prove that such activity is going on. We know that it did at Abu Ghraib, but we also know that was dealt with.

The guy is running for President, he's not some anonymous war vet. A presidential candidate has certain standards.


No he is not some anonymous war vet and to claim he is unfit because of a comment borne out of what he knows personally to be a horrendous practice is simply vile. Have you considered the fact that the "gooks" he spoke of are simply be those who held him captive? I just don't buy this latest outrage, I expected it sooner or later, but I still don't buy it.

[Elrathin]

This is a smokescreen to detract from what McCain went through Zo.


Actually aren't you detracting from what the Original topic was and that was McCain's comment? :thumbsup:

[AlonzoMourning23]

If you read my post I said there are many reports but proof is unlikely for years.

[quote]

No he is not some anonymous war vet and to claim he is unfit because of a comment borne out of what he knows personally to be a horrendous practice is simply vile. Have you considered the fact that the "gooks" he spoke of are simply be those who held him captive?

A guy who gets up and calls people "gooks", is aware of the terms meaning to Asians, and still insists on calling them "gooks" has a serious judgment prooblem.

I just don't buy this latest outrage, I expected it sooner or later, but I still don't buy it.


It's not a new story. I posted it to show the type of behavior he may exhibit in the future.

[BoogyMan]

This is a smokescreen to detract from what McCain went through Zo.


Actually aren't you detracting from what the Original topic was and that was McCain's comment? :thumbsup:


No, actually defending the poor guy is certainly not detracting from the fusillade of manufactured outrage we will be seeing in this thread. :peace:[hr]
A guy who gets up and calls people "gooks", is aware of the terms meaning to Asians, and still insists on calling them "gooks" has a serious judgment prooblem.

I will grant you that there is judgement lacking in using the word, but I can also see why the judgement is lacking.


I just don't buy this latest outrage, I expected it sooner or later, but I still don't buy it.


It's not a new story. I posted it to show the type of behavior he may exhibit in the future.


Presidential hopeful or not, I can see why the guy is bitter against his captors.

The story may not be new but the new found outrage it will engender here certainly is. I wonder what it will be tomorrow?

[preservanation]

This is just one more bombshell the left and their slobbering sycophants in the media will drop on McCain if the GOP has the misfortune of nominating him.

[PatrickHenry]

I would say it's a bomb McCain cooked up in his kitchen, not one from 20,000 feet.

[Alexander Hamilton]

This doesn't really bother me at all to be honest. I can only imagine how I'd feel about my captors if I was in a similar situation. He definitely wasn't calling all Asians or Vietnamese "gooks" but simply stating his displeasure with the few who physically tortured him. John McCain has been through some things that no one here will ever experience and as a result we can't judge him based on that. I realize he's running for President....if you don't want a man who has endured what he has as your President than don't vote for him.

What does bother me about John McCain is that he's willing the sell his supposed men out by claiming that if "victory" is achieved in Iraq they will leave with some sort of honor....when the reality of the matter is they all want to leave now and don't see any end for the war in sight. American solidiers are dying and 1.2 million Iraqi civilians have been killed - borderline genocide to say the least. And John McCain's biggest concern is that our troops leave with honor....I could personally never vote for this man.

[Elrathin]

Actually aren't you detracting from what the Original topic was and that was McCain's comment? :thumbsup:


One would wonder if you would defend a public official that said "I hate niggers" because something bad happened to him due to a black man.

There is no excuse for what he said and keep in mind, some of those "Gooks" he hates are his constituents.

[BoogyMan]

Actually aren't you detracting from what the Original topic was and that was McCain's comment? :thumbsup:


One would wonder if you would defend a public official that said "I hate niggers" because something bad happened to him due to a black man.

There is no excuse for what he said and keep in mind, some of those "Gooks" he hates are his constituents.


Your comment shows the fact that you didn't read the article El. He limited the scope of his remarks to those who were his captors.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Boogy, what if Hillary got up and said "I hate the nigers" and then clarified that she only hated the nigers who beat her up in high school, but will continue to refer to those few people as "nigers"?

[Elrathin]

Your comment shows the fact that you didn't read the article El. He limited the scope of his remarks to those who were his captors.


Gooks is a reference term for Asians, not just Vietnamese. You can make excuses all you want, but I'm pretty sure if someone said "they hate niggers", because of what some black people did in Africa to the person, you wouldn't be so forgiving or excuse it.

There is no excuse for racist remarks like that. But by all means support it because he is a Republican.

[BoogyMan]

Your comment shows the fact that you didn't read the article El. He limited the scope of his remarks to those who were his captors.


Gooks is a reference term for Asians, not just Vietnamese. You can make excuses all you want, but I'm pretty sure if someone said "they hate niggers", because of what some black people did in Africa to the person, you wouldn't be so forgiving or excuse it.

There is no excuse for racist remarks like that. But by all means support it because he is a Republican.


My support for McCain in this instance has nothing to do with my party affiliation El, I could never vote for the man. It is because I can see why he feels the way he does about the small group of people who held him captive, stabbed him in the leg and abdomen after capture, and repeated beat him while leaving his wounds untreated assuming he would die.

[preservanation]

I would say it's a bomb McCain cooked up in his kitchen, not one from 20,000 feet.
Yes, I know you would, But my seemingly elusive point is..."where is this bomb now?"
Nowhere to be seen from the left or the media. At least I haven't seen or heard it brought up except tucked away on the Internet in a San Fran Cron article from Feb 2000.

I'll tell you where that bomb is, as well as many others...Tucked safely away in the overstuffed bay of the media's B-52 ready to be deployed on a blitzkrieg mission directly over McCain's spotted pate if he gets the nomination.

That's my point.

They are holding off on criticizing, and actually enabling and endorsing him (NYT) untill the time is right, then Katy bar the door.

[cronic]

a smart person, even one that can say they was in the same situation that McCain was in when he was captured.. could have simply said he hated the North Vietnamese prison guards.. and that he always will.. thats fine.. but to say I hate the Gooks, he is including more then just the North Vietnamese prison guards and if he can say it that way then automatically one would think that he could mean that towards more then just the North Vietnamese prison guards but people that may also remind him of his captors.. it sounds pretty racial to me when he says Gooks not to mention highly unintelligent for someone wanting to be the President of the USA as well as a foreign policy leader for America!!

[Elrathin]

It is because I can see why he feels the way he does about the small group of people who held him captive, stabbed him in the leg and abdomen after capture, and repeated beat him while leaving his wounds untreated assuming he would die.


Look I'm not arguing with you that he doesn't like the North Vietnamese that did this to him nor am I arguing he has a beef with them rightfully. But you cannot excuse using the term "GOOKS" by a presidential nominee. That just isn't right Boogy.

I guarantee you that if some presidential nominee used the term niggers, he would be outed by the public. Gooks is no more correct to say than niggers, but it seems you are excusing him for it which is surprising.

[BoogyMan]

It is because I can see why he feels the way he does about the small group of people who held him captive, stabbed him in the leg and abdomen after capture, and repeated beat him while leaving his wounds untreated assuming he would die.


Look I'm not arguing with you that he doesn't like the North Vietnamese that did this to him nor am I arguing he has a beef with them rightfully. But you cannot excuse using the term "GOOKS" by a presidential nominee. That just isn't right Boogy.

I guarantee you that if some presidential nominee used the term niggers, he would be outed by the public. Gooks is no more correct to say than niggers, but it seems you are excusing him for it which is surprising.


I pointed out that I questioned the judgment of using the term El, but I also can understand why he would hold the desire to use such a term to describe those who so horribly abused him.

[Easy90]

I have to laugh. Some of you don't even know the difference between the Korean War and Vietnam. As someone who was there, (Vietnam) I find the general ignorance of the subject appalling... Well, not really anymore. I see what 30+ years of public education has brought us. Gooks, Slopes, Zips... If you weren't there, you have no idea what those terms really mean in context. Yep..in today's atmosphere, they're not real PC....But...your attempts to moralize about veterans who might use those terms is profane. I'm not a big McCain fan politically...but as a fellow vet, you have no idea of the compassion I have for what he experienced. No idea at all.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I don't really care about the compassion you have for him. The fact is we have a man who wants to be president, who wants to govern over asian citizens and work with asian nations, who thinks calling people gooks is perfectly ok if he narrows the focus down, even if it offends asians.

[BoogyMan]

I don't really care about the compassion you have for him. The fact is we have a man who wants to be president, who wants to govern over asian citizens and work with asian nations, who thinks calling people gooks is perfectly ok if he narrows the focus down, even if it offends asians.


Zo, if not offending some subsection of society is an up or down litmus test for the office of president you know that not a single person could ever hold it.

[AlonzoMourning23]

If not using terms that are derogatory of an entire ethnic or racial group, and then unapologetically saying you won't stop saying it, is the litmus test then that leaves everyone but McCain still standing.

[Elrathin]

Yep..in today's atmosphere, they're not real PC....But...your attempts to moralize about veterans who might use those terms is profane.


Would you moralize about a guy that says n-word? In your words it seems you're ok with the term "Gook"s being used, so I can only imagine that you would also be ok with someone using the term "n-word" as long as that term was around when the guy was. Appalling.[hr]
Zo, if not offending some subsection of society is an up or down litmus test for the office of president you know that not a single person could ever hold it.


So would you vote for someone that used the term n-word?

Edit: Amazing, the term "Gooks" isn't on the profanity filter here, but if I say the N-Word, it gets filtered to person of color. I guess some racial slurs are more ok than others.

[BoogyMan]

I kept waiting for you to point out also that McCain had apologized for his comment, something I would not have demanded from him considering his circumstances, but McCain issued an apology. Were you aware of this?

Feb 24, 2000 San Jose Mercury News
Source: Link (http://www.asianam.org/mccain.htm)

Retreating from his adamant defense of his use of an ethnic slur, Sen. John McCain has apologized and issued a statement renouncing "all language that is bigoted.''

The GOP presidential candidate and former prisoner of war said he regretted any pain caused by describing his Vietnam War captors as "gooks.''

The apology was apparently released Monday, a federal holiday, but came to light only Wednesday as the Arizona senator arrived in California, a state where one in four residents is foreign-born. He landed in Sacramento on Wednesday night and planned to attend a rally this morning as the presidential race heads into the "Super Tuesday'' primaries.
...

[cronic]

Yep..in today's atmosphere, they're not real PC....But...your attempts to moralize about veterans who might use those terms is profane. I'm not a big McCain fan politically...but as a fellow vet, you have no idea of the compassion I have for what he experienced. No idea at all.


thats just it Easy..having no idea because someone is not a vet is not the point. its not about a veteran now.. ok.. its about a candidate for the presidency.. Big difference.. this man wants to represent us.. the USA.. our whole country, and veteran or not.. I don't want racism in the white house speaking on our behalf and no one else should either.. there is to much hate in the world already..

[Easy90]

Well...if you don't want 'racism' in the White House..Vote for Hillary or Barrack... LOL! No "racism" there!

[cronic]

Well...if you don't want 'racism' in the White House..Vote for Hillary or Barrack... LOL! No "racism" there!


Thank you for that advice Easy.. I will do just that...smilez.. I plan on voting for Hillary..

[Pookie]

Bad judgement by McCain. I understand why he feels this way toward his captors but this was probably not the best thing he could have said.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Easy90]

Well...if you don't want 'racism' in the White House..Vote for Hillary or Barrack... LOL! No "racism" there!


Thank you for that advice Easy.. I will do just that...smilez.. I plan on voting for Hillary..


Voting against the Black guy huh? How come? Don't like Black men? :shock:

[sam]

McCain strikes me as a loose cannon and far too volatile for a POTUS. His hatred for the individuals who torture d him is understandable, but if I were of Asian descent, I couldn't help but wonder if on some level that hatred went further
than to the specific individuals in Viet Nam to the entire Asian population.

He appears to be too much of a hot head and not someone I would want in any way, shape or form in the presidential office.

Torture happens during every war in every army. I was quite young when the Mai Lai Massacre occurred; but I still vividly recall the graphic photographs of what was literally a bloodbath of civilians.

[AnnEsthesia]

We need a president who can negotiate and act diplomatically with EVERY country, regardless of what his own personal feelings are. I do not know if we can trust McCain if he is going to be spouting these gems.

[cronic]

Well...if you don't want 'racism' in the White House..Vote for Hillary or Barrack... LOL! No "racism" there!


Thank you for that advice Easy.. I will do just that...smilez.. I plan on voting for Hillary..


Voting against the Black guy huh? How come? Don't like Black men? :shock:


Ok~ (Shakes head)~ Do you realize just how stupid that sounds..Why on earth would you say or think that?.. I really fail to understand any logic what-so-ever in your statement / and questions..I will indulge you with an answer tho Easy.
I have no hate or racism in me at all..none towards black men or women.. none towards any color, or religion...I have friends that are black, white, and asian.. Not that I need to explain why I would rather vote for Hillary vs Obama, I can assure you its not because I dislike Obama because he is black.. How shallow can you get next?..Is this the best you can do in debating against me or anyone for that matter? calling me out on not voting for Obama or any other candidate is fine but why would you assume or suggest in the form of a question that my morals are lacking on anything as well as people in general on their skin color??? I'm sorry if you dislike me or think I'm some terrible monster racist..Apparently you do tho, otherwise where would your statements and questions arise from? Anger maybe? If this is all because I responded back to your post concerning McCain's use of the words I hate Gooks.. well then forgive me.. I will try to not post behind you anymore for fear it upsets you so badly that you feel the need to declare me a non voter of Obama because he is black!!

[AnnEsthesia]

cronic, you should have saved your fingers and asked em whether they would be showing their racism and sexism by voting for a white male in the elections. ;)

[cronic]

cronic, you should have saved your fingers and asked em whether they would be showing their racism and sexism by voting for a white male in the elections. ;)


Your so right my friend but I couldn't help myself.. the statement easy90 made was so ridiculous and so far off the mark that I had to try "stresses Try" and point out how ignorant his post was and to this very minute I'm still trying to figure out where it came from..Anyways, Thank you for pointing that out still.. It's nice to see others can also see the illogical statements made by some and how they can be responded back to.. haha @ me to .. I left him a positve rep a few hours ago on his good debating.. lmfao

[AnnEsthesia]

Sadly, that has to be the second or third time I have read that exact same stupid comment in the last few months here. Someone will just come out of the blue and state that if you do not support one of the dem candidates, you are either a racist or a sexist. So the comment is not just illogical and ignorant, it is also far from original.

[cronic]

Sadly, that has to be the second or third time I have read that exact same stupid comment in the last few months here. Someone will just come out of the blue and state that if you do not support one of the dem candidates, you are either a racist or a sexist. So the comment is not just illogical and ignorant, it is also far from original.


gee.. in that case I am glad I'm a newbie..laffin

[BoogyMan]

I kept waiting for someone to point out also that McCain had apologized for his comment, something I would not have demanded from him considering his circumstances. No such light of truth was brought into the discussion though, and when I posted it previously it was soundly ignored. :ponder:

Feb 24, 2000 San Jose Mercury News
Source: Link (http://www.asianam.org/mccain.htm)

Retreating from his adamant defense of his use of an ethnic slur, Sen. John McCain has apologized and issued a statement renouncing "all language that is bigoted.''

The GOP presidential candidate and former prisoner of war said he regretted any pain caused by describing his Vietnam War captors as "gooks.''

The apology was apparently released Monday, a federal holiday, but came to light only Wednesday as the Arizona senator arrived in California, a state where one in four residents is foreign-born. He landed in Sacramento on Wednesday night and planned to attend a rally this morning as the presidential race heads into the "Super Tuesday'' primaries.
...


I don't guess anyone here remembers the Hillary Clinton Ghandi remarks for 2004 which she also apologized for? (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.s.mo.farmer.clinton.ap/) :ponder:

Where are the "Just a reminder of what we may encounter if Clinton gets the nomination" threads?

[AlonzoMourning23]

Where are the "Just a reminder of what we may encounter if Clinton gets the nomination" threads?

Do you really think those two comments were even in the same universe?

[BoogyMan]

Where are the "Just a reminder of what we may encounter if Clinton gets the nomination" threads?

Do you really think those two comments were even in the same universe?


I am following the "logic" of this thread and by that measure, yes, they sure are.

[Truth_and_Power]

We need a president who can negotiate and act diplomatically with EVERY country, regardless of what his own personal feelings are. I do not know if we can trust McCain if he is going to be spouting these gems.


I think we need a president who is willing to actually say what he/she thinks to the american people rather than equivocate and obfuscate. On this topic he is 100% the opposite of hillary who has said openly in a debate during this campaign that 'when you're running for president.. you shouldn't say what you think'. I prefer to vote for a person rather than what amounts to a p.r. firm.

[AnnEsthesia]

And if that person is unable to censor themselves and NOT say things that will cause issues with large segments of the population not to mention other countries, then that is a problem.

[AlanC]

Saying what you think is fine. But when what you think is irresponsible, then its a problem too.

[Truth_and_Power]

And if that person is unable to censor themselves and NOT say things that will cause issues with large segments of the population not to mention other countries, then that is a problem.


Having a president who can't be frank with the american people is a problem too, unless you don't think the truth is important when it's upsetting.

[AnnEsthesia]

Calling people "Gooks" is not being frank.

[AlonzoMourning23]

And if that person is unable to censor themselves and NOT say things that will cause issues with large segments of the population not to mention other countries, then that is a problem.


Having a president who can't be frank with the american people is a problem too, unless you don't think the truth is important when it's upsetting.


I'd rather have a competent liar than a frank racist. I'm not calling McCain a racist, I'm just saying honesty doesn't overrule everything.

But, are you suggesting that McCain is accurate, as in the opinion is the truth? Or that he's simply telling the truth as to how he feels?

[dirtywelder]

It doesnt bother me if he calls charlie gooks. those "gooks" treated our boys undescribably cruel. probably treated them like the "jap" solders treated our boys in WWII.

[Amazed]

McCain pressed for normalization of diplomatic relations with Vietnam, partly because it was "a time to heal ... it's a way of ending the war; it's time to move on,"[123] and partly because he saw it in the U.S. national interest to do so,[123] in particular envisioning Vietnam as a valuable regional counterbalance against China.[124] In 1994 the Senate passed a resolution, sponsored by Kerry and McCain, that called for an end to the existing trade embargo against Vietnam; it was intended to pave the way for normalization.[in particular envisioning Vietnam as a valuable regional counterbalance against China.[124] In 1994 the Senate passed a resolution, sponsored by Kerry and McCain, that called for an end to the existing trade embargo against Vietnam; it was intended to pave the way for normalization.[125] During his time on the committee and afterward, McCain was vilified as a fraud,[123] traitor,[120] or "Manchurian Candidate"[124] by some POW/MIA activists who believed that there were large numbers of American servicemen still being held against their will in Southeast Asia.[123] McCain said that he and Kerry had gotten the Vietnamese to give them full access to their records, and that he had spent thousands of hours trying to find real, not fabricated, evidence of surviving Americans.[118] In 1995, President Bill Clinton normalized diplomatic relations with the country of Vietnam,[124] with McCain's and Kerry's visible support during the announcement giving Clinton, who did not serve in the military, some political cover.[124][120]




McCain openly used the term "gook", in reference to his Vietnamese torturers during the Vietnam War, even since his return as a POW.[52] During the 2000 presidential campaign, he repeatedly refused to apologize for his continued use of the term, stating that he reserved its reference only to his captors.[259] Late in the primary season, with growing criticism from the Asian American community in the politically important state of California, McCain reversed his position, and vowed to no longer use the term in public.[260] Most Vietnamese Americans, who are mostly refugees from the Communist government, did not find his terminology offensive, and overwhelmingly supported him.[261][262][263]


All from a simple search on wikipedia

[Go Fish]

Uh....... didn't our people take photo's of themselves giving a thumbs up over prisoners they killed as mementos? Seems like some of our guys did the same thing to prisoners.


There were no killings at Abu Ghraib, Zo. Where did you ever get that idea?

[AlonzoMourning23]

Uh....... didn't our people take photo's of themselves giving a thumbs up over prisoners they killed as mementos? Seems like some of our guys did the same thing to prisoners.


There were no killings at Abu Ghraib, Zo. Where did you ever get that idea?


In her video diary, a prison guard said that prisoners were shot for minor misbehavior, and claimed to have had venomous snakes bite prisoners, sometimes resulting in their deaths. By her own admission, that guard was "in trouble" for having thrown rocks at the detainees.[14] Hashem Muhsen, one of the naked men in the human pyramid photo, said they were also made to crawl around the floor naked and that U.S. soldiers rode them like donkeys. After being released in January 2004, Muhsen became an Iraqi police officer.[citation needed]

It was discovered that one prisoner, Manadel al-Jamadi, died as a result of abuse, a death that was ruled a homicide by the military. One detainee has also made charges of rape under supervision of the soldiers.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/AbuGhraibScandalGraner55.jpg
....

They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. The next day the medics came in and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake I.V. in his arm [to suggest he died under medical care] and took him away. This OGA (other governmental agency) [prisoner] was never processed and therefore never had a number...

Death certificates repeatedly stated that prisoners had died "during sleep", and of "natural reasons". (Zo added: How many prisoners where of natural death age?) Iraqi doctors are not allowed to investigate even when death certificates are obviously forged. No reports of investigations against U.S. military doctors who forged death certificates have been reported.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

[Go Fish]

Oh for God's sake.....Wikipedia?!!!!

Wait a minute. I'll dart over there and make it say that he committed auto-erotic asphyxia. BRB.[hr]Really. Truly. Who was murdered and who did it?

Quit believing everything that fits your opinion. It's unbecoming.

[Amazed]

Just a few points in general, nothing any prisoners went through in abu ghraib was even close to what POWs in vietnam went through. John McCain has always been opposed to that camp, and torture methods (for obvious reasons).

[PatrickHenry]

Just a few points in general, nothing any prisoners went through in abu ghraib was even close to what POWs in vietnam went through. ...
You are quite mistaken. Prisoners in Abu Ghraib were beaten to death.

[4Reaganomics]

...at least John McCain won't sit down and have tea with the enemy and threaten to attack our allies

[4Reaganomics]

...at least John McCain won't sit down and have tea with the enemy and threaten to attack our allies

[Elrathin]

...at least John McCain won't sit down and have tea with the enemy and threaten to attack our allies


No he will be just like Rumsfield and shake hands with Murderers like Saddam.

[Amazed]

Just a few points in general, nothing any prisoners went through in abu ghraib was even close to what POWs in vietnam went through. ...
You are quite mistaken. Prisoners in Abu Ghraib were beaten to death.


First of all, I'm talking about perspective here. We have evidence that one prisoner died as a result of being 'overstressed'. While I don't defend or belittle that at all, anything more than that is just conjecture and not very good conjecture at that. By contrast, John McCain WAS essentially beaten to death. He would have died had his captors not found out that his father was an admiral. Many others were beaten to death, and the people that did so certainly didn't face any charges. The POWs that did survive did so under severe beatings every few hours, isolation, arms ripped out of sockets, malnutrition... etc. for upwards of 9 years, and that is all confirmed fact. As I said... perspective, and the biggest point still is that McCain has always been a staunch critic of abu ghraib, and has said that his first action would be to shut the facility down.

[Go Fish]

Just a few points in general, nothing any prisoners went through in abu ghraib was even close to what POWs in vietnam went through. ...
You are quite mistaken. Prisoners in Abu Ghraib were beaten to death.


No they weren't. You have not only no proof, you have no evidence. Show us all where anyone was beaten to death, or caused to die, by any American servicemember.
See, it's shit like this that infuriates me about anti-Americans.[hr]

...at least John McCain won't sit down and have tea with the enemy and threaten to attack our allies


No he will be just like Rumsfield and shake hands with Murderers like Saddam.


Oh my Allah! I thought that the leftist line was that Hussein was a stabilizing force in the ME!
Clinton (As POTUS) invited Yasir Arafat to our country and shook hands with him in the Rose Garden after masturbating with that very same hand! Of course, Arafat died of AIDS a few years later, so maybe it wasn't such a bad thing after all.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Oh for God's sake.....Wikipedia?!!!!

Wait a minute. I'll dart over there and make it say that he committed auto-erotic asphyxia. BRB.[hr]Really. Truly. Who was murdered and who did it?

Quit believing everything that fits your opinion. It's unbecoming.


Oh for the love of God, it's not like the fact that people were killed in abu ghraib is contested:

Manadel al-Jamadi, died during an interrogation. His head had been covered with a plastic bag, and he was shackled in a crucifixion-like pose that inhibited his ability to breathe; according to forensic pathologists who have examined the case, he asphyxiated. In a subsequent internal investigation, United States government authorities classified Jamadi’s death as a “homicide,” meaning that it resulted from unnatural causes.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/11/14/051114fa_fact

Usually before calling people on something it's best to get your own facts straight.

[Amazed]

Alonzo, I admit that is quite sickening, but it still isn't even near the same ballpark as Hanoi. Regardless, you bring up more good reasons to vote for McCain.

[namguy]

Just a reminder of what we may encounter if McCain gets the nomination:

Arizona Sen. John McCain refused to apologize yesterday for his use of a racial slur to condemn the North Vietnamese prison guards who tortured and held him captive during the war.

"I hate the gooks," McCain said yesterday in response to a question from reporters aboard his campaign bus. "I will hate them as long as I live."

McCain, a former Navy pilot who spent five years in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp, was questioned about the language because of a story last month in the Nation magazine reporting his continued use of the slur.

Since then, reports of McCain's language have been circulating on Internet chat sites and e-mails among Asian Americans, many of whom find the the term offensive and inappropriate for an elected official.

McCain's appeal to voters has been as a wartime hero and a feisty politician who speaks his mind and damns the consequences. But his comments on the eve of the key South Carolina primary show the candidate's vaunted "straight talk" in another light.

"The use of a racist slur can't be acceptable for any national leader, regardless of his background," said Diane Chin, executive director of the San Francisco-based Chinese for Affirmative Action. "For someone running for president not to recognize the power of words is a problem."

While McCain's words may have little effect in conservative South Carolina, where few Asian Americans live, they could come back to haunt him in other states.

"Historically, straight talkers who say things off the top of their heads eventually hang themselves with those sorts of remarks," said Bruce Cain, a political scientist at the University of California at Berkeley.

"While it might not hurt him now, Democrats are not going to have any hesitation about using this stuff to string him up later."

TERM FOR HIS CAPTORS

McCain made no apologies yesterday.

"I was referring to my prison guards," McCain said, "and I will continue to refer to them in language that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends."

McCain made it clear that his anger extends only toward his captors. As a senator, he was one of the leaders of the postwar effort to normalize U.S. relations with Vietnam.

Campaign officials do not expect the controversy to hurt McCain, either in tomorrow's South Carolina primary or later in the campaign.

"If people understood the context, they wouldn't be upset," Mike Murphy, a senior adviser to the campaign, said last night.

But the racial slur used by the senator has a long, painful history that is felt by many Asian Americans.

The word "gook" was first used in 1899 by American soldiers fighting Filipino insurgents. During the Korean War, the term was aimed at Koreans and Chinese. It was directed at the Vietnamese when Americans were fighting in Vietnam. It is now used as a slur toward any Asian or Pacific Islander.

The Arizona senator prides himself on running an open campaign. He is surrounded by reporters, television cameras and tape recorders perhaps more than any presidential candidate in history. Reporters are given full access to the candidate between each campaign stop on a customized bus purposefully dubbed the "Straight Talk Express."

The bus, which also carries his top staff and often his wife, Cindy, is crammed with network anchors and local newspaper reporters, who endlessly engage McCain in what amounts to a news conference on wheels.

The comments are usually recorded and always on the record.

Sometimes the questions are pointed and serious. Sometimes they are not.

McCain has declared on his bus, "I hate the French." He often begins meetings with Californians joking, "I hate Californians," noting that they steal Arizona's water and lure his constituents away in the summer.

MCCAIN'S IMPRISONMENT

But those comments are clearly in jest. Yesterday's were not.

McCain was captured after his A-4 Skyhawk was shot down over Hanoi on Oct. 26, 1967. During the time he was held, he was brutally tortured by his captors, finally reaching the point where he was unable to resist signing a "confession."

McCain and his fellow prisoners suffered terribly in the prison camp. In the crowd at yesterday's rally in Greenville was retired Adm. Robert Fuller, who was in prison with McCain at the infamous "Hanoi Hilton."

Fuller, who lives in Jacksonville Beach, Fla., spoke informally of the despair of living in single cells, where the only form of contact was by an ingenious code devised by the prisoners. Fuller said prisoners were sometimes tortured for as many as six days. When they returned, he said, the others would send messages of support by tapping on the wall.

"They would be put in ropes for six days, and they would confess," Fuller said. "When they came back to their cell, guys would tap on the wall, `We love you. I wish we could give you a hug.' "

The horrors of the past cannot be an excuse for hurting people in the present, said Guy Aoki, president of the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, an anti-defamation group.

"If Sen. McCain had been captured by Nigerians, could he call those people `niggers' and think he wasn't going to offend everyone who is black?" Akoi asked. "We can all feel for what he went through, but if that's his level of sensitivity, I'm very disappointed."

McCain usually treats his experience as a prisoner of war as a terrible time in his life, but a period he has moved beyond. At times, he even uses it as a punch line for jokes.

At a pancake breakfast recently, he said he had gone with his daughter to the MTV Music Awards, "and that was the greatest assault on my senses since I was in prison."

Yesterday's comments made it clear that McCain had neither forgotten, nor forgiven, his captors.

"I will call right now, my interrogator that tortured me, a gook," McCain said. "(I can't believe that) anybody doesn't believe these interrogators and prison guards were cruel and sadistic people who deserve the worst appellations possible."

McCain said he does not consider the comment an epithet.

"Gook," he said, "is the kindest appellation I can give."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL


Have you spent time in a POW camp? Perhaps your a Navy Pilot? Have you ever been in a combat zone? Before you start on McCain's comments or references ask yourself a few questions.[hr]
With any luck it won't matter and we'll have a reprieve after eight years of a republican White House.


Wow! You got that right:thumbsup:[hr]
If I remember right he was tortured in Nam or Korea maybe? That's why he hates them.

We can expect the same from those we are currently torturing...life long hatred.


No maybe's about it, he was. Not that I'm in his political camp, I'm not.[hr]
The reports of abuse by no means ended, they just ended in that prison.

Honestly we're still getting reports of what our soldiers did in Vietnam, it will likely be a long time before we can really say, with any certainty, to what extent the abuse was or wasn't occurring in Iraq.


Patrick Henry speaks with common sense and tells it the way it is.[hr]
Seeing as how he was tortured by Vietnamese during Vietnam I can see where he's coming from. But that doesn't make it okay, or any more okay if he were to call blacks "niggres" for getting in a fight with them.


Can't make that comparison, worlds apart.[hr]
Just a reminder of what we may encounter if McCain gets the nomination:

Arizona Sen. John McCain refused to apologize yesterday for his use of a racial slur to condemn the North Vietnamese prison guards who tortured and held him captive during the war.

"I hate the gooks," McCain said yesterday in response to a question from reporters aboard his campaign bus. "I will hate them as long as I live."

McCain, a former Navy pilot who spent five years in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp, was questioned about the language because of a story last month in the Nation magazine reporting his continued use of the slur.

Since then, reports of McCain's language have been circulating on Internet chat sites and e-mails among Asian Americans, many of whom find the the term offensive and inappropriate for an elected official.

McCain's appeal to voters has been as a wartime hero and a feisty politician who speaks his mind and damns the consequences. But his comments on the eve of the key South Carolina primary show the candidate's vaunted "straight talk" in another light.

"The use of a racist slur can't be acceptable for any national leader, regardless of his background," said Diane Chin, executive director of the San Francisco-based Chinese for Affirmative Action. "For someone running for president not to recognize the power of words is a problem."

While McCain's words may have little effect in conservative South Carolina, where few Asian Americans live, they could come back to haunt him in other states.

"Historically, straight talkers who say things off the top of their heads eventually hang themselves with those sorts of remarks," said Bruce Cain, a political scientist at the University of California at Berkeley.

"While it might not hurt him now, Democrats are not going to have any hesitation about using this stuff to string him up later."

TERM FOR HIS CAPTORS

McCain made no apologies yesterday.

"I was referring to my prison guards," McCain said, "and I will continue to refer to them in language that might offend some people because of the beating and torture of my friends."

McCain made it clear that his anger extends only toward his captors. As a senator, he was one of the leaders of the postwar effort to normalize U.S. relations with Vietnam.

Campaign officials do not expect the controversy to hurt McCain, either in tomorrow's South Carolina primary or later in the campaign.

"If people understood the context, they wouldn't be upset," Mike Murphy, a senior adviser to the campaign, said last night.

But the racial slur used by the senator has a long, painful history that is felt by many Asian Americans.

The word "gook" was first used in 1899 by American soldiers fighting Filipino insurgents. During the Korean War, the term was aimed at Koreans and Chinese. It was directed at the Vietnamese when Americans were fighting in Vietnam. It is now used as a slur toward any Asian or Pacific Islander.

The Arizona senator prides himself on running an open campaign. He is surrounded by reporters, television cameras and tape recorders perhaps more than any presidential candidate in history. Reporters are given full access to the candidate between each campaign stop on a customized bus purposefully dubbed the "Straight Talk Express."

The bus, which also carries his top staff and often his wife, Cindy, is crammed with network anchors and local newspaper reporters, who endlessly engage McCain in what amounts to a news conference on wheels.

The comments are usually recorded and always on the record.

Sometimes the questions are pointed and serious. Sometimes they are not.

McCain has declared on his bus, "I hate the French." He often begins meetings with Californians joking, "I hate Californians," noting that they steal Arizona's water and lure his constituents away in the summer.

MCCAIN'S IMPRISONMENT

But those comments are clearly in jest. Yesterday's were not.

McCain was captured after his A-4 Skyhawk was shot down over Hanoi on Oct. 26, 1967. During the time he was held, he was brutally tortured by his captors, finally reaching the point where he was unable to resist signing a "confession."

McCain and his fellow prisoners suffered terribly in the prison camp. In the crowd at yesterday's rally in Greenville was retired Adm. Robert Fuller, who was in prison with McCain at the infamous "Hanoi Hilton."

Fuller, who lives in Jacksonville Beach, Fla., spoke informally of the despair of living in single cells, where the only form of contact was by an ingenious code devised by the prisoners. Fuller said prisoners were sometimes tortured for as many as six days. When they returned, he said, the others would send messages of support by tapping on the wall.

"They would be put in ropes for six days, and they would confess," Fuller said. "When they came back to their cell, guys would tap on the wall, `We love you. I wish we could give you a hug.' "

The horrors of the past cannot be an excuse for hurting people in the present, said Guy Aoki, president of the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, an anti-defamation group.

"If Sen. McCain had been captured by Nigerians, could he call those people `niggers' and think he wasn't going to offend everyone who is black?" Akoi asked. "We can all feel for what he went through, but if that's his level of sensitivity, I'm very disappointed."

McCain usually treats his experience as a prisoner of war as a terrible time in his life, but a period he has moved beyond. At times, he even uses it as a punch line for jokes.

At a pancake breakfast recently, he said he had gone with his daughter to the MTV Music Awards, "and that was the greatest assault on my senses since I was in prison."

Yesterday's comments made it clear that McCain had neither forgotten, nor forgiven, his captors.

"I will call right now, my interrogator that tortured me, a gook," McCain said. "(I can't believe that) anybody doesn't believe these interrogators and prison guards were cruel and sadistic people who deserve the worst appellations possible."

McCain said he does not consider the comment an epithet.

"Gook," he said, "is the kindest appellation I can give."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL


Considering Sen. McCain's service to our country he's on solid ground saying what he wishes. There's always been two kinds of war veterans, those that carry hatered on and those that don't. I cannot compare my thoughts with no other veteren, each are entitled to their own thoughts. I know a few guys that won't eat at Chinese Restruants due to their war experences, got to respect that. I'm not under such thoughts, thank goodness. You have to do what you have to do in war, bottom line.

[Amazed]

Good post Nam, I don't agree with you in that I do like McCain (probably the only politician I have ever liked), but i like the intelligent argument. To me the point is that he was instrumental in normalizing relations with Vietnam, and as such shows to me that he does delineate between the people that did this to him, and the Vietnamese people themselves. I don't believe I could forgive people for doing what they did, nor the interrogators at Guantanamo.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Have you spent time in a POW camp? Perhaps your a Navy Pilot? Have you ever been in a combat zone? Before you start on McCain's comments or references ask yourself a few questions.

I don't give a fuck what his past is. He's a presidential candidate, if he doesn't behave that way, regardless of the reasons, he shouldn't be running.

I know a few guys that won't eat at Chinese Restruants due to their war experences, got to respect that. I'm not under such thoughts, thank goodness. You have to do what you have to do in war, bottom line.

Got to respect that? Understand yes, respect no.

[namguy]

Good post Nam, I don't agree with you in that I do like McCain (probably the only politician I have ever liked), but i like the intelligent argument. To me the point is that he was instrumental in normalizing relations with Vietnam, and as such shows to me that he does delineate between the people that did this to him, and the Vietnamese people themselves. I don't believe I could forgive people for doing what they did, nor the interrogators at Guantanamo.


Okay, I respect that, good one:thumbsup:

[Jade Rat]

Can you really blame the man? Don't you know how brutal the VC and NVA where to our guys? McCain was hung for hours by his broken arms- and kept completely isolated for years. I don't want to meet the man who feels "let bigons be bigons" should be the case after his body was mutilated by them.

[apdst]

I don't give a f_ck what his past is. He's a presidential candidate, if he doesn't behave that way, regardless of the reasons, he shouldn't be running.

Wow!! Could that same comment apply to Obama?????

Are Wright's comments what we can expect from Obama? Hmmm?

[4Reaganomics]

This won't get any traction. Obama doesn't want his cloudy history of Anti-American support brought back into the spectrum, so he'll hang back on this issue.

Reminds me, new Rasmussen poll has McCain up 48-42, socialism is being denied by the people

[AlonzoMourning23]

Uhh..... ap, with regards to presidential candidates, how is wright saying something the equivalent to McCain saying something?

[apdst]

Uhh..... ap, with regards to presidential candidates, how is wright saying something the equivalent to McCain saying something?

Because Obama has been sitting in the front row listening to him say for seventeen years; obviously, Obama doesn't disagree with it.

[4Reaganomics]

because he worships the man for 20 years and the man is his spiritual guide

So if your guide is Anti-American, the apple won't fall far from the tree

[apdst]

Oh yeah, don't forget how Obama baby momma is only, just now, proud to be an American.

[apdst]

So if your guide is Anti-American, the apple won't fall far from the tree

There it is!!

I mean, hey, Prescott Bush traded with Nazi Germany. That was all the Libs needed to call Bush Jr. a Nazi. Right?