Israel not a democracy like the US

[Athena]

Here are some news stories you won't find in popular US media.Â*Â*It tells the other side of the story.Â*Â*The second story should also interest those opposed to socialism, or opposed to exploiting human beings.Â*Â*It is not the poor to ask for socialism, but those who want to exploit them.Â*Â*

COMMERCIAL AND POLITICAL EXPLOITATION OF STOLEN LAND

Settlers on Israel's eastern frontier

by Gadi Algazi

Â*Â*Â*Â* The settlements of the West Bank built in the past decade,
Â*Â*Â*Â* privately financed and publicly backed, have attracted
Â*Â*Â*Â* nonpolitical Jews, both the well-off looking for gated
Â*Â*Â*Â* communities and poor, big families who just want affordable
Â*Â*Â*Â* housing.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Original text in English

Â*Â*Â*Â* <http://MondeDiplo.com/2006/08/04settlers>


Offshoring to the West Bank

by Gadi Algazi

Â*Â*Â*Â* Residents of Modi'in Illit do not consider themselves
Â*Â*Â*Â* settlers. The housing shortage has pushed large
Â*Â*Â*Â* ultra-orthodox families to the settlement where they get
Â*Â*Â*Â* public housing and government assistance not available in
Â*Â*Â*Â* Israel.

Â*Â*Â*Â* <http://MondeDiplo.com/2006/08/05offshoring>

EDIT: Corrected spelling in title.

[Labrocca]

Good post but I don't think most people have the impression that Israeli democracy is like ours. Very few countries mimic the US democracy.

[Nathan Brazil]

Israel has Palestinians, the US had Indians.

What's the dif?


Not to mention that the US isn't a democracy.

[Athena]

Israel has Palestinians, the US had Indians.

What's the dif?Â*Â*


Not to mention that the US isn't a democracy.


People of European decent have stopped shoving the Indians off their lands, and the Indians have accepted the lost of their way of life and control over the land, and have stopped attacking the settlers.Â*Â*The difference is time.Â*Â*The evil of these invaders who do not leave, is the same.Â*Â*

[Athena]

Good post but I don't think most people have the impression that Israeli democracy is like ours.Â*Â*Very few countries mimic the US democracy.


In what way do the Israelis have a democracy that is worth our defense?
Israel is for Jews, and that is way there is constant violence. They have deliberately pushed Palestinians out and increased the number of Jews through immigrantion so there is no chance they will loose control of governing decisions, and those decisions favor the Jews who are given land taken from Palestinians, and have housing and more provided by the state for Jews and only Jews. This is not something we should defend. Palestinians need protection from the Zionist, as native Americans needed help defending their land and way of life, and we are wrong to deny this, and call Israel a democracy.

[Athena]

One more point. Because the workers have subsidized housing they can work for lower wages and compete with India. There are people in these forums who insist it is the poor who cause welfare and socialization. The truth is, welfare programs subsidize industry and Wal- Mart, so products and services can be provided cheaply, and we all benefit from that.

When we accept subsidized anything from the government, (individual or business) the government gains control of the individual or business. Constitutionally the federal government is forbidden to control our public schools, which are suppose to be under local control. The truth is the federal government began giving schools money and now controls them.
This is the only the most obvious example of money and control. But if you work for mimiun wage and live in government housing, you have nothing like the personal freedom of those who own their own homes. Your home is not your castle, but you live under authority who determines who can and can not stay in your home for an extended period of time. Living this way, feels very different from not having such authority over self.

Think about the factory and the workers who are even afraid to socialize during the day. This is a perversion of our human nature and it sickens me! There is no liberty and freedom of expression here. Human spirits are trapped in conditions unfit for humans, and they accept this abusive condition of life because they haven't known anything else. And this is being defended as a democracy we must defend. I feel greif when I write these words. We are defending a horror to the human spirit.

[BoogyMan]

Think about the factory and the workers who are even afraid to socialize during the day.Â*Â*This is a perversion of our human nature and it sickens me!Â*Â*There is no liberty and freedom of expression here.Â*Â*Human spirits are trapped in conditions unfit for humans, and they accept this abusive condition of life because they haven't known anything else.Â*Â*And this is being defended as a democracy we must defend.Â*Â*I feel greif when I write these words.Â*Â*We are defending a horror to the human spirit.


Who is it that is appealing wholly to emotion?? Do you want to try and explain this afraid to socialize comment?

[Nathan Brazil]

People of European decent have stopped shoving the Indians off their lands, and the Indians have accepted the lost of their way of life and control over the land, and have stopped attacking the settlers.Â*Â*The difference is time.Â*Â*The evil of these invaders who do not leave, is the same.

Oh, so if the Palestinians stop killing innocent Israeli children they'll be allowed to have casinos?

[Nathan Brazil]

One more point.Â*Â*Because the workers have subsidized housing they can work for lower wages and compete with India.

In other words, the productive people are being taxed so the lesser ones can find jobs that are competitive with Turd World wages scales.

Which is another form of freedom destroying socialism.

There are people in these forums who insist it is the poor who cause welfare and socialization.Â*Â*The truth is, welfare programs subsidize industry and Wal- Mart, so products and services can be provided cheaply, and we all benefit from that.

That's another form of welfare, and it equally freedom-destroying. Also, the biggest cause of socialism is politicians promising people something for the price of a vote.

When we accept subsidized anything from the government, (individual or business) the government gains control of the individual or business.

That part's right.

We are defending a horror to the human spirit.

Death to socialism, set America FREE!

[Athena]

In other words, the productive people are being taxed so the lesser ones can find jobs that are competitive with Turd World wages scales.

Did you read the article explaining this community in Israel and how these people can live on a lower wage, and how very productive they are, before commenting?

I hope others read the links and what you have said, and then judge the quality of your what you have to say.

[Rider]

"Oh, so if the Palestinians stop killing innocent Israeli children they'll be allowed to have casinos?"

That's great!

[Rider]

IMHO we should support Israeli democracy because:

A. It's pretty much the only democracy there, no?

B. Most of the Arab and Persian populations and governments in the region are mired in the 10th century.

[Athena]

Who is it that is appealing wholly to emotion?? Do you want to try and explain this afraid to socialize comment?

Did you read the links? I am coming to the conclusion that the posting here are not reading the links, are not seeking more information, and are not saying anything worth reading. They are only arguing for some kind of emotional/ego gratification.

The few women who do post, are not engaging much in serious discussions, and the male post far exceed the female post. This is unfortunate but typical of these forums.

Whatever, I have reset my subscriptions so I will no longer be notified of new post. My concern is a well informed and thinking person will post something I will miss it, and that person will go away for lack of engaging and well informed discussion.

I wonder why these forums make a big effort to be international and end up people from the US brickering with each other and very rarely attract someone from another country for long.

[Nathan Brazil]

In other words, the productive people are being taxed so the lesser ones can find jobs that are competitive with Turd World wages scales.

Did you read the article explaining this community in Israel and how these people can live on a lower wage, and how very productive they are, before commenting?

Hmmm....you don't say what I said was wrong, therefore I can assume that you do not think I'm wrong, merely that you can't refute what I say.

I hope others read the links and what you have said, and then judge the quality of your what you have to say.

And if wishes were fishes everyone would dance for the halibut.

[Rider]

Athena wrote- The few women who do post, are not engaging much in serious discussions, and the male post far exceed the female post.

It's unfortunate, but true that men are by far more interested (concerned?) about politics and current events.

[Athena]

Athena wrote- The few women who do post, are not engaging much in serious discussions, and the male post far exceed the female post.

It's unfortunate, but true that men are by far more interested (concerned?) about politics and current events.


I came back to delete my rant, but since you quoted from it, it is too late to pretent I didn't say what I said. But instead I will add to it. I do not think the males posting here are concerned about politics and current events. They are not reading the links, they are not trying to get information, they are not thinking beyond there own personal lives and wants, and their thinking is pretty limited to cliches!

I will make a another futile wish. I wish people would not post to threads that are started with links, without reading the links. Some of the comments here could not be more ignorant of the subject. How could they not be ignorant of the subject when people are posting without reading and considering what this thread is about? How can you claim people who express opinions without knowing the presented information, are concerned about politics and current events? I wish the posters were, but they are not.

[Rider]

Athena,
Your complaints are fair enough. I don't always read the links for many reasons. Like most of us I don't have unlimited time to read all of the background. Many of the links lead one to 5000 word essays that are too time consuming for me. Sometimes, one can read the first line or two of linked material and discern a bias so strong that the rest of the essay is a foregone conclusion. I think we can all agree to that. And, in many cases all of us are predisposed to certain outcomes. What reference would I have to provide for you to suddenly realize that it would be best to carpet bomb Tehran?
But, I will do my best to listen to the arguments of others and have faith that others on this forum will do the same.

Fair enough?

[Mayberry]

I do not think the males posting here are concerned about politics and current events. They are not reading the links, they are not trying to get information, they are not thinking beyond there own personal lives and wants, and their thinking is pretty limited to cliches!
Only because you say so. The fact of the matter is, that people interpret information in different ways, so their conclusions may not be the same as yours. And yes, our personal experiences can and do weigh heavily on our point of view. They do for you Athena, you never waver from your stance when provided alternative information, you simply talk your way around it. Step back and look in the mirror. Getting mad and turning off your e-mail notifications does nothing but verify your defeat. As they say, you gotta step outside the box once in a while. I do it, and a few things I have read here and elsewhere have caused me to rethink my position on some issues. For instance, I wanted cheap oil so I could continue to drive my old V-8 Chevy truck. (Nothing like that V-8 rumble:D) Now I've decided I need to find a smaller vehicle with better fuel economy to conserve oil for the future. Sure, I'll keep that old truck for when I need to haul stuff (or get my V-8 fix!), but for everyday driving around I'll use the small vehicle (I may even get a motorcycle). I would probably even trade in the wife's Tahoe, except that it doesn't have any trade in value anymore because the market is flooded. Cheaper to keep her.

[Labrocca]

Nathan...you should read the informative links before commenting or posting about them. Honestly you bring the intelligence level down on this site by not being at least an informed member willing to acknowledge or at least read information provided in a thread. This site is about debate not just voicing your opinions.

[Nathan Brazil]

Nathan...you should read the informative links before commenting or posting about them. Honestly you bring the intelligence level down on this site by not being at least an informed member willing to acknowledge or at least read information provided in a thread.Â*Â*This site is about debate not just voicing your opinions.


I did read the links. Isreal's treating the occupied territorities like settlements, and the people that already lived there are getting pushed out. That's been going on for decades now. It doesn't excuse the victims from murdering innocents, though.

The indians, at least, had the excuse of being part of a neo-lithic culture when they went on scalping raids and raped and mutilated the settlers they could catch. As far as I'm concerned, what happened with the American indians was an inevitable process of culture clash with no other possible outcome. It may not justify it in modern eyes, but it's history, not a current event, and it has to be judged by the standards of the time.

Islam pretends to be civilized, and thus they have no excuse for what they do. They could justify assualts, even sabotage, on Isreali military and government facilities, and on attacks on services such as water, power, and telecommunications on the basis of guerilla warfare and win the support of many. Instead they choose to attack babies.

Being an intelligent poster, I said all that in one sentence, before, since the histories of the two events are common knowledge. Too bad some required an explanation.

[Athena]

Athena,
Your complaints are fair enough. I don't always read the links for many reasons. Like most of us I don't have unlimited time to read all of the background. Many of the links lead one to 5000 word essays that are too time consuming for me. Sometimes, one can read the first line or two of linked material and discern a bias so strong that the rest of the essay is a foregone conclusion. I think we can all agree to that. And, in many cases all of us are predisposed to certain outcomes. What reference would I have to provide for you to suddenly realize that it would be best to carpet bomb Tehran?
But, I will do my best to listen to the arguments of others and have faith that others on this forum will do the same.

Fair enough?


Admittedly at times, I have jumped in the middle of a debate without being well informed.Â*Â*This is taking a risk of looking foolish, because uninformed people, are... well, uninformed.Â*Â*Nathan's bias is a falsehood that should not be tolerated, and I do not believe Tehran should be bombed.Â*Â*What do you know of the people of Tehran and why they are at odds with the US?Â*Â*You tell me what you know, in a thread for this purpose, and then maybe I will think you know enough to make such a judgement.Â*Â*Right now, I am betting you don't know very much, and before posting again in this thread, you should read the links. If you don't have time to read, don't take time to write in this thread. Â*

[Athena]

I do not think the males posting here are concerned about politics and current events. They are not reading the links, they are not trying to get information, they are not thinking beyond there own personal lives and wants, and their thinking is pretty limited to cliches!
Only because you say so. The fact of the matter is, that people interpret information in different ways, so their conclusions may not be the same as yours. And yes, our personal experiences can and do weigh heavily on our point of view. They do for you Athena, you never waver from your stance when provided alternative information, you simply talk your way around it. Step back and look in the mirror. Getting mad and turning off your e-mail notifications does nothing but verify your defeat. As they say, you gotta step outside the box once in a while. I do it, and a few things I have read here and elsewhere have caused me to rethink my position on some issues. For instance, I wanted cheap oil so I could continue to drive my old V-8 Chevy truck. (Nothing like that V-8 rumble:D) Now I've decided I need to find a smaller vehicle with better fuel economy to conserve oil for the future. Sure, I'll keep that old truck for when I need to haul stuff (or get my V-8 fix!), but for everyday driving around I'll use the small vehicle (I may even get a motorcycle). I would probably even trade in the wife's Tahoe, except that it doesn't have any trade in value anymore because the market is flooded. Cheaper to keep her.


Well, I thought I would see if anyone said anything worth reading, and so far it appears none of you have read the links, therefore, none of you have said anything worth reading.Â*Â*Shutting down the e-mail notices is like stopping junk mail.Â*Â*Only if people are informed will they be able to say anything worth reading.Â*Â*How is accepting you all do not read before commenting, and therefore, have nothing worth reading to say, a defeat?Â*Â*Like this is like walking out of an out of control nursery school room, because I don't to play with the children.Â*Â*It is nothing at all like debating a subject with well informed people.Â*Â*People have to read, to be informed, and you don't know the subject, but feel some kind of compulsion to say something anyway.Â*Â*Dumb. What a waste of my time.

[Rider]

Athena, you make a valid point, but there's more to it than that. Providing a link may or may not provide any useful information. Honestly, if I provided you with a link to a radical skinhead website to back up some racist argument would it make any difference in your thinking? Similarly, if you refered me to a study by the Alan Gutmacher institute during a debate on abortion it wouldn't lend any credibilty to your argument as far as I was concerned. Let's be real; almost any position in any argument can be backed up by some article or reference somewhere on the web.

I think this illustrates the extreme polarization in our country now. Also, many positions taken in debates may come from a lifetime of experience with that issue and not some article or study one has recently read.

[Athena]

The following is from one of the links. The link explains how very productive these $4 an dollar workers are, and Nathan could not be more wrong to assume low wages workers are not productive workers, and are not deserving of more. Nor are we right to defend Israel on the grounds it is a democracy like the US. Israel colonialism is controlling, exploitive and prejudiced, and it is expand by taking land from Palestinians, just as the people of the US took land from native Americans. The Arab world is defending itself from wrongs.


What is remarkable about this settlement is the way it replicates the internal colonialism in Israel in the 1950s, when new immigrants, many from the Arab world, were settled on the border both to secure the territorial gains of the 1948 war and to serve as cheap labour in the early stages of Israel’s industrialisation. Integration into Israel’s colonial project, populating its frontier, was a condition for access to fundamental social rights.

New immigrants from the Arab world were seen as no more than unskilled workers.

Similarly, today’s ultra-orthodox women workers are now depicted as emerging from darkness to light, from consignment to the home to the benefits of modern capitalism, although in fact they are often well educated and have traditionally earned a living while caring for their families.

Frontier colonialism reinforces dependence and subordination. In Modi’in Illit, the poor are the instruments of the colonisation process and also its victims.

It is sometimes suggested that Israeli capitalism, as it modernises, should be able, even required, to abandon its attachment to old-style colonialism. But Modi’in Illit proves that Israeli capitalism can be both colonial and digital, and move back and forth between global markets and colonial settlements, and between campaigns for unbridled privatisation and heavy government subsidies. Left to itself, Israeli capitalism is not able, or predisposed, to pull itself out of the colonial swamp or to exert pressure on the state that sustains it.

Only resistance by those whose land it occupies and their allies seems likely to force a change. At that point Israel’s colonial project would be seen to be a liability.

[Nathan Brazil]

The following is from one of the links.Â*Â*The link explains how very productive these $4 an dollar workers are, and Nathan could not be more wrong to assume low wages workers are not productive workers, and are not deserving of more.Â*

Oh, god! What I said was that the nation that subsidizes housing and services for low wage workers so they could compete on a wage level with Turd World countries is doing nothing except transferring wealth from the people who are more productive to those who are less so.

But there's the more question of what right do the people of lesser productivity have to the fruits of their more productive neighbors. They have no rights to it whatsoever.

In the end, remember TANSTAAFL.