A scenario from a atheist.(No, not me.)

[Newscaster]

A former college buddy of mine who used to be a devout Christian and is now an atheist, always tries to ask questions he believes will stump me. Here is one of them.
We always hear that God is Good. I think so and I am sure most of you do too. Now, in a hospital room, a 9 year old girl, a beautiful child, lies in bed suffering from a large brain tumor. Al around her bed, he family has gathered, each member praying as hard as he or she can, asking God to save this child who never harmed a fly, is smart, obedient and who believes in God from her head to her toe.
Now, if you had the power that we believe God has, we would help that child survive in a heart beat. We would'nt wait to be asked a second time. But the child, despite all the prayers, dies because of that tumor. God did not step in to help. To all appearances, he just let her die and in the process, turning that family's world upside down.
We say it was part of God's plan. Plan? What plan? How does a God we all claim is good, put together a plan that allows a child to die for no discernible reason? And not only that, a brain tumor can be a very painful ordeal. My friend asks.....if God is watching each one of us, and loves us and cares for us, etc etc etc, how does he sit by and allow that beautiful child to die?
Now my friend insists there is no PLAN. He says we use that excuse because we have no clue why that child died. We can't deal with the scenario that the child's doctors worked their butts off trying to save her and God....well, God only knows where he was.
I dont have an answer. I wish I did.

[PostmodernProphet]

Now, if you had the power that we believe God has, we would help that child survive in a heart beat.

that conclusion requires the assumption that what is here and now is preferrable to what is coming after death.....

perhaps if God were truly good he would take us ALL now instead of making us wait....

since we don't know the result either way, we may as well be resigned to the fact that our conjecture makes no difference to the child, while the confidence of faith makes a huge difference to her parents.....

[Newscaster]

With a child dying in front of you, I cannot imagine anyone standing there doing nopthing because Heaven might be better than what we know about now. WSe imagine Heaven. We are not even sure it really exists because no one has seen it and returned tell us about it. I could nev er live with myself if I allowed that child to die without lifting a finger to help her, afterlife or no afterlife. Pious people love top talk about how moral they are. The moral thing is to help....not stand mute.

[Alonzo]

What would happen to the population if everyone survived until 75 or 80? Imagine the world population, and the even greater scarcity of food and water in poor countries, if every single person survived. The current level of suffering would be greatly increased.

It's not an individual decision "I'm going to let Samantha McCants die" as some make it out to be.

[Elrathin]

Well there is always the plan that this girl might have grown up, dated a guy and dumped him. That guy in his distraught frame of mind, could have ended up killing millions. Yes, I know it's a stretch, but there can ALWAYS be a plan to life.

[Keith Hamburger]

Well there is always the plan that this girl might have grown up, dated a guy and dumped him. That guy in his distraught frame of mind, could have ended up killing millions. Yes, I know it's a stretch, but there can ALWAYS be a plan to life.

Ok. So, this is going with the standard approach concerning the Christian god, that he is the alpha and the omega, he is the beginning and the end. He knows all that is, all that has been and all that will be.

Ignoring the the drastic issue with this applied to free will, why does this justify his making the child suffer?

If the afterlife is so great and he wishes to have the child there instead of on earth, there's no need for suffering.

If this theoretical boyfriend that is going to kill millions actually exists, wouldn't it make more sense for him to die, and suffer if necessary?

Fairy tales about god virtually never make any sense when examined rationally. But, if they make people feel better without driving them to do bad things (as often happens) I'm not going to stand in the way.

Keith

[Elrathin]

Ignoring the the drastic issue with this applied to free will, why does this justify his making the child suffer?

Using the plan I said, one child suffering is better than millions.


If the afterlife is so great and he wishes to have the child there instead of on earth, there's no need for suffering.

Perhaps the child suffering changes somebody and they do something great, or their great grandchildren do something great.


If this theoretical boyfriend that is going to kill millions actually exists, wouldn't it make more sense for him to die, and suffer if necessary?

You don't know the whole plan, I could go into more elaborate detail if you'd like.


Fairy tales about god virtually never make any sense when examined rationally. But, if they make people feel better without driving them to do bad things (as often happens) I'm not going to stand in the way.

Keith


I'm not a Christian, nor do I follow any organized religion. I just explained how there COULD BE a plan. No, matter how much of a stretch it is, they COULD BE. That's all I'm saying. What I said also assumes there is ONE god, there could be MULTIPLE gods all competing or doing things their own way in conflict with each other.

[Newscaster]

I think it is easy to talk about "God's Plan" when the circumstances do not effect you. By this, I m ean, if the person dying is not a member of your family...a total stranger. But if it is your child or spouce or even just a close relative, the maority of people will not stop to contemplate Heaven but will instead call for a doctor, plan or no plan.

[Elrathin]

But if it is your child or spouce or even just a close relative, the maority of people will not stop to contemplate Heaven but will instead call for a doctor, plan or no plan.


But of course. I only know of a few oddball religions that would not call a doctor. Even when you call a doctor though, that could be part of the plan.

I guess that is why I don't worry too much of a divine plan because if you obsess with it you can second guess breathing to a point. It's not worth it IMO.

I just live my life and try to do the best I can. That is why I don't follow organized religions. I don't believe mankind has the capability to understand a divine(s) if there is one, that is why man simplifies it into a religion with rules that he can deal with. That is why has been done with many old and forgotten religions.

[Torrid]

I've got to say I don't believe in this whole "plan". I think I'm different than the typical conservative in that I am an atheist and the honest answer to why atheists do not understand or like that answer is because it sounds like a fairy tale. Please do not take this as an insult to religion, but just as an honest answer to understand where we stand on this issue.

My main reason for not believing? I'm a very much, matter-of-fact kind of guy and given a lot of things that have happened, leading to my whole family to turn their backs on me, the thought never crossed my mind.

[underdawg]

Think of life the same way that you see a good book. If there were no pain, excitement, suffering, or struggle that the characters go through, who would want to read the book? I see this world as perfect. Death is just as important as life. The thing that amazes me about Christianity, is that Christians treat death as if it were a great evil to be fought. Some people can't imagine why a loving"god" would allow death to happen to the innocent. What does matter is that we try to show love and compassion to people no matter how short their lives may be.

[Ralph]

The answer is simple, it may seem callus, but it is found in the truth that God has revealed to us in His Word. God has no respect of person, God cannot lie, all mankind has an appointment with death, the ways of God are beyond the ability of mankind to understand, God is love, to be separated from this physical world and this physical temple is to be with God were there is no more suffering to the righteous, the child was sin free due to her inability to comprehend and distinguish between the good and the evil of this world, all children set the example for the rest of us to follow in their simple approach to life.

Thus we conclude that the child, even though premature kept her appointment that we all must keep, she was sin free and was obviously suffering in her physical body within the realms of this physical existence, God can not lie, thus He could not simply pick this one child to have as an example of His divine power demonstrated as there was no new revelation to confirm with signs and wonders, if he had worked outside the natural in answering the many prayers of this young girls family this would have made God a respecter of persons and a Liar, which He cannot be. The child was treated by man with all their modern technologies, but man is limited and failed to cure this child. God's word has told us that the gifts of a miraculous nature have ceased. Thus from God's revealed word we determine that "nothing" that has happened is the fault of God, unless one considers the blessing of having this child included in their life for a short period was a "fault".

The true Power of God is found in His word for it has the ability to save mankind's ETERNAL EXISTENCE, as this is the demonstration of His love, He gave His "only begotten" that all man might have life....eternally. One is not really capable of living as does a child until he comes to realize that the limits of this physical life does not limit the truth of God and His promises, thus we are not really following the example of the child until such time as we no longer FEAR death, that God has paid the ultimate price to defeat, His Son. Death is but the beginning of ETERNITY, death is nothing to be feared but inversely should be embraced as a VICTORY of righteousness. If any are attempting to serve God and be righteous for simply wanting this physical life to be made one of comfort, riches, and pleasures.....they do not understand the nature of God which has been revealed in His Word, we are promised none of these things (though we may be blessed with them), we are simply requested to demonstrate a love toward God and our fellow man in this life in exchange for ETERNAL SALVATION. (R)

[Lazarus]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it

[PostmodernProphet]

With a child dying in front of you, I cannot imagine anyone standing there doing nopthing because Heaven might be better than what we know about now. WSe imagine Heaven. We are not even sure it really exists because no one has seen it and returned tell us about it. I could nev er live with myself if I allowed that child to die without lifting a finger to help her, afterlife or no afterlife. Pious people love top talk about how moral they are. The moral thing is to help....not stand mute.


Nowhere did I say anything about doing nothing.....the opening article talks of the family around her hospital bed....I presume the doctors have already done everything that they are capable of doing....

[Easy90]

I've got to say I don't believe in this whole "plan". I think I'm different than the typical conservative in that I am an atheist and the honest answer to why atheists do not understand or like that answer is because it sounds like a fairy tale. Please do not take this as an insult to religion, but just as an honest answer to understand where we stand on this issue.

My main reason for not believing? I'm a very much, matter-of-fact kind of guy and given a lot of things that have happened, leading to my whole family to turn their backs on me, the thought never crossed my mind.

You're not as "different" as you might think you are. Faith in such things as are taught in Christianity...(or any religion I know of) requires the abandonment of rationality. Some people (including me) find that..well, unreasonable.

[Ralph]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it


Actually what one gains from following the will of God is a "righteous life" lived in good will toward all, and rewarded with the eternal fellowship of God. We as Christians are "promised" nothing extra in this physical life, as God loves every human equally, the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner is loved as much as the saint. God does not want any to perish, thus everyone has the equal opportunity to seek out and find the truth of God, in fact it is our soul purpose of existence as described in both Testaments of God.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts: 17: 24-28).

As also concluded by the wise man of the Old Testament, the very purpose of mankind is to seek out and serve God's will, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Therefore when we do not seek out and find service in the Lords will we simply fill that whole which is in our spirit that longs and quest's for satisfaction. If we do not serve the Lord, we attempt to fill this void with all manners of substitutes such as, wealth, power, greed, sex, etc (roaming the net, slamming others that wish to live righteously as they blame everyone but themselves for all lives problems), which in the end brings only temporary pleasure with no fulfillment. Thus we find examples of the rich and famous often never living past their young adult lives before they bring sudden destruction upon themselves and others. As they never really find the fulfillment of a complete life, one which is best in the service of our LORD. (R)

[PostmodernProphet]

Easy90: You're not as "different" as you might think you are. Faith in such things as are taught in Christianity...(or any religion I know of) requires the abandonment of rationality. Some people (including me) find that..well, unreasonable.

reason builds upon known or accepted truths......there are many who are not religious who accept certain unproveable things as truth, likely yourself included....if one's conclusions properly follow from their starting point, they are reasonable.....to pretend otherwise is rather irrational.....

[Lazarus]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it


Actually what one gains from following the will of God is a "righteous life" lived in good will toward all, and rewarded with the eternal fellowship of God. We as Christians are "promised" nothing extra in this physical life, as God loves every human equally, the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner is loved as much as the saint. God does not want any to perish, thus everyone has the equal opportunity to seek out and find the truth of God, in fact it is our soul purpose of existence as described in both Testaments of God.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts: 17: 24-28).

As also concluded by the wise man of the Old Testament, the very purpose of mankind is to seek out and serve God's will, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Therefore when we do not seek out and find service in the Lords will we simply fill that whole which is in our spirit that longs and quest's for satisfaction. If we do not serve the Lord, we attempt to fill this void with all manners of substitutes such as, wealth, power, greed, sex, etc (roaming the net, slamming others that wish to live righteously as they blame everyone but themselves for all lives problems), which in the end brings only temporary pleasure with no fulfillment. Thus we find examples of the rich and famous often never living past their young adult lives before they bring sudden destruction upon themselves and others. As they never really find the fulfillment of a complete life, one which is best in the service of our LORD. (R)


Ralph, you have it slightly askew on several fronts.

Firstly, quotes from the Bible do nothing to advance the discussion.
Those tales are so full of contradictions and generalities to render them meaningless.

Initially, those authors relied on the " vengeful God " narrative to force good behavior.
Later, when that tact began failing, a reward was introduced - Heaven and all its' glory awaits for whose who behave; vis-a-vis the 10 Commandments/et cetera.

Many who do not possess your " Faith " may very well blame others for their failures. That is human nature; afflicting all, including those of Faith.
But those " Believers " also blame God for their failures. " It is Gods' will " is a common refrain. As was my earlier " Sometimes the answer is no. " example.

[Ralph]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it


Actually what one gains from following the will of God is a "righteous life" lived in good will toward all, and rewarded with the eternal fellowship of God. We as Christians are "promised" nothing extra in this physical life, as God loves every human equally, the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner is loved as much as the saint. God does not want any to perish, thus everyone has the equal opportunity to seek out and find the truth of God, in fact it is our soul purpose of existence as described in both Testaments of God.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts: 17: 24-28).

As also concluded by the wise man of the Old Testament, the very purpose of mankind is to seek out and serve God's will, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Therefore when we do not seek out and find service in the Lords will we simply fill that whole which is in our spirit that longs and quest's for satisfaction. If we do not serve the Lord, we attempt to fill this void with all manners of substitutes such as, wealth, power, greed, sex, etc (roaming the net, slamming others that wish to live righteously as they blame everyone but themselves for all lives problems), which in the end brings only temporary pleasure with no fulfillment. Thus we find examples of the rich and famous often never living past their young adult lives before they bring sudden destruction upon themselves and others. As they never really find the fulfillment of a complete life, one which is best in the service of our LORD. (R)


Ralph, you have it slightly askew on several fronts.

Firstly, quotes from the Bible do nothing to advance the discussion.
Those tales are so full of contradictions and generalities to render them meaningless.

Initially, those authors relied on the " vengeful God " narrative to force good behavior.
Later, when that tact began failing, a reward was introduced - Heaven and all its' glory awaits for whose who behave; vis-a-vis the 10 Commandments/et cetera.

Many who do not possess your " Faith " may very well blame others for their failures. That is human nature; afflicting all, including those of Faith.
But those " Believers " also blame God for their failures. " It is Gods' will " is a common refrain. As was my earlier " Sometimes the answer is no. " example.


As is often stated, yet the scriptures have never been proven to contradict the truth that it represents. You may surf the web, pull some parroted point that is "claimed" to be a contradiction, but the truth is there has never been even ONE contradiction of truth found in the scriptures, if there is please present it, and it will be "debunked" as the misrepresentation that it is. In fact I have a list of over 130 "supposed" contradiction found in the bible, but what is found to be contradictory is the ignorance in which they have been presented with not an once of understanding the message that is claimed to have been contradiction of another script. Present these "proven" contradictions, and observe how truly ignorant secular man can be when attempting to match wits with the author of the scripts. (R)

[moses2792796]

Maybe God's greatest act of good was creating a world where not everything was perfect, but as a whole the reality never changes, the mass and energy, the true nature of the universe always remain the same. Ask yourself this, if every one of your attempts succeeded, if no matter what ou did your life remained perfect, what would be the motivation to ever do anything? I wouldn't want that, would you?

Prayer is not about begging for something you want, if you think it is you need to deflate your ego.

[Ralph]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it


Actually what one gains from following the will of God is a "righteous life" lived in good will toward all, and rewarded with the eternal fellowship of God. We as Christians are "promised" nothing extra in this physical life, as God loves every human equally, the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner is loved as much as the saint. God does not want any to perish, thus everyone has the equal opportunity to seek out and find the truth of God, in fact it is our soul purpose of existence as described in both Testaments of God.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts: 17: 24-28).

As also concluded by the wise man of the Old Testament, the very purpose of mankind is to seek out and serve God's will, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Therefore when we do not seek out and find service in the Lords will we simply fill that whole which is in our spirit that longs and quest's for satisfaction. If we do not serve the Lord, we attempt to fill this void with all manners of substitutes such as, wealth, power, greed, sex, etc (roaming the net, slamming others that wish to live righteously as they blame everyone but themselves for all lives problems), which in the end brings only temporary pleasure with no fulfillment. Thus we find examples of the rich and famous often never living past their young adult lives before they bring sudden destruction upon themselves and others. As they never really find the fulfillment of a complete life, one which is best in the service of our LORD. (R)


Ralph, you have it slightly askew on several fronts.

Firstly, quotes from the Bible do nothing to advance the discussion.
Those tales are so full of contradictions and generalities to render them meaningless.

Initially, those authors relied on the " vengeful God " narrative to force good behavior.
Later, when that tact began failing, a reward was introduced - Heaven and all its' glory awaits for whose who behave; vis-a-vis the 10 Commandments/et cetera.

Many who do not possess your " Faith " may very well blame others for their failures. That is human nature; afflicting all, including those of Faith.
But those " Believers " also blame God for their failures. " It is Gods' will " is a common refrain. As was my earlier " Sometimes the answer is no. " example.


As is often stated, yet the scriptures have never been proven to contradict the truth that it represents. You may surf the web, pull some parroted point that is "claimed" to be a contradiction, but the truth is there has never been even ONE contradiction of truth found in the scriptures, if there is please present it, and it will be "debunked" as the misrepresentation that it is. In fact I have a list of over 130 "supposed" contradictions found in the bible, but what is found to be contradictory is the ignorance in which they have been presented with not an once of understanding the message that is claimed to have been contradiction of another script. Present these "proven" contradictions, and observe how truly ignorant secular man can be when attempting to match wits with the author of the scripts. (R)

[Easy90]

Hmmm: You mean, like this?

"Any of the people of Israel, or of the aliens who reside in Israel, who give any of their offspring to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone them to death. I myself will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people, because they have given of their offspring to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. And if the people of the land should ever close their eyes to them, when they give of their offspring to Molech, and do not put them to death, I myself will set my face against them and against their family, and will cut them off from among their people, them and all who follow them in prostituting themselves to Molech.

If any turn to mediums and wizards, prostituting themselves to them, I will set my face against them, and will cut them off from the people. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy; for I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord; I sanctify you. All who curse father or mother shall be put to death; having cursed father or mother, their blood is upon them.

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them." [Leviticus, chapter 20]

[PostmodernProphet]

Hmmm: You mean, like this?

no, generally when someone tries to prove a contradiction they cite a contradictory statement.....you have left off the other half of the equation.....

I expect, when you attend to your error, you will refer to something from the NT, which is fulfillment, not contradiction......but then, I expect you've been told that before.....

[Easy90]

Ah...I see. So the OT was just a mistake?

Then, this message: "Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"

Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16.

[PostmodernProphet]

Ah...I see. So the OT was just a mistake?

no, merely your understanding of it.....

this is the central message of Christianity

which obviously parallels your misunderstanding of the NT......

[Easy90]

no, merely your understanding of it.....

Oh, OK...But, the words I posted from it seem pretty clear to me. So, I think I understand what they say. Maybe they "MEAN" something else...that's it! They really don't mean all that about stoning people to death and such...It's just "allegory!"

which obviously parallels your misunderstanding of the NT......

Ummm...No...I think I get it. Again, it's "Love and worship me (Him)..or spend eternity in HELL!" Says so all over the place...particularly in the places I mentioned.

Help me understand. Why does God want to kill so many people?

"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death." Exodus 35:2

Think about that how many people work on the Sabbath -- all the employees of Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Linnens & things, grocery stores, convenience stores, power plants, airlines, hospitals, emergency services and on and on and on. Don't rabbis, priests and preachers work on the Sabbath? God wants all of them dead.

Then there is Leviticus 20:13:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them."

All homosexuals need to be killed. What about this:

If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

That's a lot of people who need to be killed.

In other words, if we actually listened to what God says, we would need to kill at least half of the people in America tomorrow. After all, Isaiah 40:8 says, "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever." The word of the Lord tells us to kill half of the U.S. population.

[Lazarus]

In other words, from this nonbelievers' perspective...

" Sometimes the answer is no."

Another way to continue the belief.


http://www.mosio.com/images/8ball_logo.jpg

● As I see it, yes
● Ask again later
● Better not tell you now
● Cannot predict now
● Concentrate and ask again
● Don't count on it
● It is certain
● It is decidedly so
● Most likely
● My reply is no
● My sources say no
● Outlook good
● Outlook not so good
● Reply hazy, try again
● Signs point to yes
● Very doubtful
● Without a doubt
● Yes
● Yes - definitely
● You may rely on it


Actually what one gains from following the will of God is a "righteous life" lived in good will toward all, and rewarded with the eternal fellowship of God. We as Christians are "promised" nothing extra in this physical life, as God loves every human equally, the rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner is loved as much as the saint. God does not want any to perish, thus everyone has the equal opportunity to seek out and find the truth of God, in fact it is our soul purpose of existence as described in both Testaments of God.

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing, seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us; For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." (Acts: 17: 24-28).

As also concluded by the wise man of the Old Testament, the very purpose of mankind is to seek out and serve God's will, "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments: For this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).

Therefore when we do not seek out and find service in the Lords will we simply fill that whole which is in our spirit that longs and quest's for satisfaction. If we do not serve the Lord, we attempt to fill this void with all manners of substitutes such as, wealth, power, greed, sex, etc (roaming the net, slamming others that wish to live righteously as they blame everyone but themselves for all lives problems), which in the end brings only temporary pleasure with no fulfillment. Thus we find examples of the rich and famous often never living past their young adult lives before they bring sudden destruction upon themselves and others. As they never really find the fulfillment of a complete life, one which is best in the service of our LORD. (R)


Ralph, you have it slightly askew on several fronts.

Firstly, quotes from the Bible do nothing to advance the discussion.
Those tales are so full of contradictions and generalities to render them meaningless.

Initially, those authors relied on the " vengeful God " narrative to force good behavior.
Later, when that tact began failing, a reward was introduced - Heaven and all its' glory awaits for whose who behave; vis-a-vis the 10 Commandments/et cetera.

Many who do not possess your " Faith " may very well blame others for their failures. That is human nature; afflicting all, including those of Faith.
But those " Believers " also blame God for their failures. " It is Gods' will " is a common refrain. As was my earlier " Sometimes the answer is no. " example.


As is often stated, yet the scriptures have never been proven to contradict the truth that it represents. You may surf the web, pull some parroted point that is "claimed" to be a contradiction, but the truth is there has never been even ONE contradiction of truth found in the scriptures, if there is please present it, and it will be "debunked" as the misrepresentation that it is. In fact I have a list of over 130 "supposed" contradiction found in the bible, but what is found to be contradictory is the ignorance in which they have been presented with not an once of understanding the message that is claimed to have been contradiction of another script. Present these "proven" contradictions, and observe how truly ignorant secular man can be when attempting to match wits with the author of the scripts. (R)

the truth that it represents.
That merely begs the question.

Dazzle someone else with your " debunking " skills.

Your " bible " had many authors - all seeking to further separate agendas. That explains the contradictions ; Different motivations called for different motivators.
Jesus tending sheep is an apropos metaphor in more ways than one.

[PostmodernProphet]

Why does God want to kill so many people?

??...he doesn't....he wants them all to live....but some just seem inclined to do things which he finds unacceptable....in the OT days it was things like sacrificing their children to the idol Molech.....

under the teachings of Christianity, it is only those who refuse to believe in him......

which means your comment about Walmart does nothing except demonstrate your ignorance of the teachings of Christianity.....

The word of the Lord tells us to kill half of the U.S. population.
so no, only the atheists have to worry, and then only when they die of natural causes.....[hr]Jesus tending sheep is an apropos metaphor in more ways than one.

particularly for the ones who have gone astray.....

[Ralph]

I see that many do not have the slightest idea about the nature of God, as they try to blame the shortcomings of mankind upon He that gestated their being in the very image of Himself, with a SPIRIT that has cognation to reason and make choices that do indeed make man just as God with the free will to dictate his fate. Now, when any wish to exercise this apparent God like ability to manage their own destiny, and something goes askew, IT IS ALL GOD'S FAULT.

Shall we begin with a basic and fundamental concept of relationship between God and mankind? The Bible scripts make it perfectly clear that the nature and character of God does not change, and they very well make just as apparently clear that mankind does change as he often exercises his Godlike image to "choose wrongly" and make bad judgments. Thus we have the many different covenants between God and man, God did not fail to keep these requests, MANKIND DID., and as such, God makes adjustments to His relationship with man in an attempt to stay in fellowship.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will not do? Or has, He spoken, and will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19). This does not mean God doesn't change his mind concerning man, such as in Genesis 6:5-6, but that is not because God changes but because man changes. Therefore, when we talk about the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, we are not talking about two different beings. He is one and the same; just as it is said about the Son of God. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Heb.13:8), God does not change. "Like a cloak You will fold them up, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not fail" (Heb.1:12)

It is in the New Testament that we are warned, "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God; on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." (Rom. 11:22). What is happening is that you are oversimplifying your view of God. You are focusing on His Justice while ignoring his LOVE, but God is both, this He does not deny.

How long were the people of Sodom involved in sin before God finally decided to destroy them? (Genesis 18:21-22). God wanted Abraham, and us as well, to know that the destruction of Sodom was not arbitrary or a spur of the moment judgment. He personally checked out the situation that had been reported in out crys of the masses concerning this supposed evil. He even agreed to not destroy the cities, if He could find just ten righteous people in the area (Gen.18:32). So why were the cities destroyed? Because of their grave sins and the fact that only four righteous people were found. There was an opportunity for more to leave than just four, but none would listen. So where was the lack of chance to repent? Man failed himself, in his relationship with other men, God failed no one.

How many "one more chances" does a person need? This simply can not be answered, because no one can read the mind of man with the exception of the spirit of that man, and God, who's imagine that spirit is made in. God, very well knows when man is truly repentant, or not. God allows this world to continue so people can have a chance to repent (2Peter 3:9), but it won't last forever. An end is planned (2Peter 3:10-12).

Ultimately, every man has a choice whether to choose sin or righteousness. This is the guaranteed choice that we all have (1Cor.10:13). No one has to sin. Everyone choses to sin and the consequence of that sin is death (Rom.6:23). God is gracious and merciful toward us in that He doesn't give us what we have justly earned immediately(eternal death). He has demonstrated great love toward us in that we don't have to earn our salvation back because none of us would be able to earn it. But what you are doing is trying to turn it all around and say, "What's the use, God has shown that He will destroy anyone that simply does not believe in Him, but I deserve a chance due to may own goodness" and you cry unfair! When it is your own actions of free will that separates God from exercising Love instead of Justice in your consideration. You have simply declared God a non-entity, but then declare yourself to be as God, in your own self righteousness. Indeed you are an agent of free will, exercise it how you will, for how does God know when anyone really loves Him, if they do not indeed have the option of NOT LOVING HIM, but when you openly declare not to love him, have you indeed made a righteous judgment of YOUR SPIRIT. You openly condemn God, yet declare your own goodness and exercise your own JUSTICE......sure, this fair, is it not? Condemn God for the same actions, just done in righteous judgment, but condone your own, made in unrighteous judgment. Somewhat hypocritical....NO? Some can not see the forest for the trees. (R)

[Easy90]

"Indeed you are an agent of free will, exercise it how you will."

That always confused me...How do you have "free will" when you were created by an omnipotent being who knows your every thought, and who knows what you will do ultimately...because he knows everything? If you are a known quantity even before you take your first breath, and what you will ultimately do is already known by the being that made you...doesn't the "free will" concept suffer? Or is that too complicated for you to ponder?

"which means your comment about Walmart does nothing except demonstrate your ignorance of the teachings of Christianity..."

I see that my questions/statements have elicited the typical response...a personal attack. Don't feel threatened...I knew you had no answer when I wrote that. You Christians are so predictable.

[Keith Hamburger]

The Bible scripts make it perfectly clear that the nature and character of God does not change, and they very well make just as apparently clear that mankind does change as he often exercises his Godlike image to "choose wrongly" and make bad judgments. Thus we have the many different covenants between God and man, God did not fail to keep these requests, MANKIND DID., and as such, God makes adjustments to His relationship with man in an attempt to stay in fellowship.

I wrote about this in high school in reference to Oedipus Rex. If there is anyone, or any being, that knows the future and what will happen, free will is completely negated. If any being knows what your free will will lead you to, you have no free will, all is programmed.

According to Christian beliefs, God is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. God knows what is, what has been and what will be. Therefore, what will be is set, it has already occurred in the mind of God. Anything we do, as to God's knowledge, is just that which we will do, and, in the terms of an omniscient god, what we have already done.

God knows if I will choose to worship him, or not. If he already knows what will happen, what has happened, in his mind.

God knows if man will change, God knows if man has changed. As to a being that knows the entire story, what is the reason to play out the story? What is the reasoning for suffering, if the suffering has already happened in the mind of God?

Your concept of "God" is severely flawed. If you don't understand, entirely, the above, then your view of space and time is truly inadequate to address the issue.

If you do understand the above, I can't understand why you would believe in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god.

Keith

[Easy90]

"If there is anyone, or any being, that knows the future and what will happen, free will is completely negated. If any being knows what your free will will lead you to, you have no free will, all is programmed" KH

Bingo! You win the prize! :thumbsup:

[Ralph]

"If there is anyone, or any being, that knows the future and what will happen, free will is completely negated. If any being knows what your free will will lead you to, you have no free will, all is programmed" KH

Bingo! You win the prize! :thumbsup:

This is an inverted ideology, the fact that there is free will must conclude that there is the option of "choice". If there was no option to choose, then there would be no free will at all if one does not have the ability to choose "wrongly". The scriptures themselves "contradict" this inversion of projected accusation, that God dictates the life of every man "individually". This is simply not shown in the truth that the Scriptures present, because God has said that there is a plan of salvation that was gestated before the beginning of time does not imply that He chooses each and every individual and guides his path, all this means is that a way of salvation has been established and it is up to each individual to find his/her correct path by "choosing" which path to follow in gaining this salvation. Consider the choices, that God as said that He has allowed man to choose.

The Bible does say that God wants everyone to be saved. (2Peter 3:9). God doesn't want any person in this world to perish. However, the Bible also says that everyone will NOT be saved. (Matt.7:13-14). Does this mean that God cannot do what He wants to do in all cases? Does this mean that God is not all powerful? Absolutely not. All this means is that God has created a world where His children (All mankind are His children) can choose to follow Him or to rebel against Him. The Scriptures are full of admonitions for man to decide, to make a choice. Joshua urged the children of Israel to CHOOSE whether to follow God or idols. His family had already decided to follow God. (Joshua 24:15). Moses told the children of Israel to choose life and live. (Deut. 30:19). Even in the New Testament we are told to test everything, holding on to the good and avoiding the evil. (1 Thes. 5:21). As I said, if a choice exists, and it does as demonstrated by the inspired authors of the scriptures, then we must conclude that some people will make the WRONG CHOICE. If it were not possible to make the wrong choice, then no choice existed in the first place. As has already been presented in Matt. 7, we see that not only will people make the wrong choice sometimes, but most people will completely rebel against God and His authority (as demonstrated in this thread). The reason is clear, it is much easier to rebel than it is to conform and follow.

Paul told us to work out our own salvation. (Phillippians 2:12). We must decide. God will help us, this is true. He will point us in the right direction and path. However, God is forcing each of us to make up our own minds. As I have said, before, has no one ever wondered why God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place? If that tree had not existed, then mankind would have never been tempted and would not have sinned and violated God's law. However, if man does not have the choice to sin, why bother? How could anyone say that they love God, if they were never given the opportunity NOT TO LOVE Him? Thus God uses man's choice's as a physical demonstration of that love. If He did not we as of right now would all be in paradise in the constant fellowship, untested by God. Thus God forces us to show our hand to the world by the choice of obedience or disobedience, for indeed He already knows the content of our heart, by the spirit contained within all of us as it witnesses to Him directly. God simply gives us the chance though learning by our mistakes to CHANGE, through our choices.

Think about the example of the children of national Israel. They were God's own specially chosen people, and He was their husband alone to the exclusion of all others. They were intended to be His light to the heathen nations around them. God protected them, gave them their own special law, and gave them every advantage to encourage them to follow His will. Yet, time after time, the Israelites chose to rebel against God and bore the consequences of their choice. (I Cor. 10:1-12). The Israelites were not forced to follow God and obey God. God gave them a choice and they made the wrong choice. God gives all of us the same choice now in the New Testament of grace, as we must decide this day, whom to follow. (R)

[PostmodernProphet]

That always confused me...How do you have "free will" when you were created by an omnipotent being who knows your every thought, and who knows what you will do ultimately...because he knows everything? If you are a known quantity even before you take your first breath, and what you will ultimately do is already known by the being that made you...doesn't the "free will" concept suffer? Or is that too complicated for you to ponder?


why should it suffer.....the fact that he knows which choice you freely made doesn't alter the fact you freely made it.....

I see that my questions/statements have elicited the typical response...a personal attack. Don't feel threatened...I knew you had no answer when I wrote that. You Christians are so predictable.

???....that wasn't a personal attack, it was an empirical observation.....your post demonstrated ignorance of the teachings of Christianity....anyone who doesn't understand the difference between the application of law in the OT and the NT has obviously made no effort at all to understand Christianity, since it is one of the most basic doctrines of that religion...../shrugs....so I guess we are predictible since I expect any Christian who read your comment would make the same assumption that I did, that you were ignorant of the teachings of Christianity.....

[Easy90]

why should it suffer.....the fact that he knows which choice you freely made doesn't alter the fact you freely made it.....

Nope. That's a violation of fundamental rules of logic. You said: "he knows which choice you freely made" But in fact, according to your own faith, the omnipotent "Creator" "KNOWS WHAT CHOICE YOU WILL MAKE! because he is the Alpha and Omega...he knows everything! SOOOO, "If my "choice" is known before I am even aware there WILL be a choice...then whatever it is, is pre-ordained, and not a free choice. The concept of "free will" implies that there is uncertainty as to what choice one might make. But if that choice is known in advance..there is no uncertainty.. Get it yet? Christians are hopelessly trapped by their own illogical concepts.

Consider a robot maker, building a robot...In building his robot, the inventor programs it to take three steps forward, then one step left. Standing it up he pronounces: "I give you free will to do what you will! But, if you don't take three steps forward, then one step right, I will put you in a trash heap and burn you!" But remember, the builder already knows what the robot will do when he says that. Then, ponder an outsider reflecting: "Well, it's too bad if they don't do as the creator wants..the robot had free will!"[hr]observation.....your post demonstrated ignorance of the teachings of Christianity....anyone who doesn't understand the difference between the application of law in the OT and the NT has obviously made no effort at all to understand Christianity, since it is one of the most basic doctrines of that religion.....

Ah...I see. Direct quotes from the very "operating manual" of your religion that defy rationality when read in the light of modern civilized society, words that literally mean...(if words mean anything,) death to half the population of the world, are too "nuanced" for literal understanding by someone as ignorant as myself, (a person who's had almost a decade of intense Christian indoctrination.)

Gotcha! Well then...since I am obviously so "ignorant" of Christianity, I see how such a learned person as yourself can dismiss my little challenge for an explaination of how any sane person can proclaim to be a follower of such gibberish...as not being worthy of civil discussion.:madlaugh:

:rolleyes:

[Ralph]

What is "illogical" is to argue against what is clear in intent and message as presented in the "revealed" will of God, I.E., the Holy Scriptures. When any opinionated ideology is presented and then rebuked by the words of God Himself, this is sufficient to dictate doctrine and TRUTH on any subject matter in relation to those that profess to worship in that revealed truth. Thus making the OPINION of those that deal in speculation a "moot" point of controversy when they present their "false ideology" of doctrine in an attempt to subvert the TRUTH found in the scriptures.

Are we as "Christians" to worship in "spirit and truth" (John 4:24), or to be lead away from the truth? "I Charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at this appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables...." (2Tim. 4:1-5).

As said, because the Lord God indeed knows the content and intent of the heart of man does not preclude man from exercising the gift of God, that gift of being formed in the very image of God's spirit, which brings with it a cognation to reason and design his own fate, a condition commonly known as "free will". The question that thus MUST be answered by God, is not the content of that which rests in mans heart, but can that content be molded by the words of God to a position worthy of the Love that God has shown man and the eternal salvation of being in fellowship with God Almighty. Does God indeed need any more "Lucifers" to disrupt His eternal kingdom? Thus we are placed in constant judgment of God's will, it is not a heavy burden, but one born out of the love of RIGHTEOUSNESS, TRUTH, AND JUSTICE. (R)

[Easy90]

Think about the example of the children of national Israel. They were God's own specially chosen people, and He was their husband alone to the exclusion of all others.

Well gee! Didn't God make all the other people too? How come he chose to make them all "not his friends?" Why didn't he "choose" to love all humans? That would mean that little innocent babies that were not born as Jews were condemned from their conception. How fair is that? Were these people of other races simply not worthy of being chosen by him too? How come? And since God knows everything...your thoughts, your actions, your destiny...in advance...as we are all "part of god's divine plan".. Wouldn't this all powerful being know that the Israelites were going to "choose wrong?"

[PostmodernProphet]

That's a violation of fundamental rules of logic.

sorry, but that's laughable.....free will simply means you have the capability to make alternate choices....you retain that capability even if God knows in advance which choice you will make.....you are not compelled by his knowledge to make a choice...

Ah...I see. Direct quotes from the very "operating manual" of your religion that defy rationality when read in the light of modern civilized society, words that literally mean...(if words mean anything,) death to half the population of the world, are too "nuanced" for literal understanding by someone as ignorant as myself, (Ah...I see. Direct quotes from the very "operating manual" of your religion that defy rationality when read in the light of modern civilized society, words that literally mean...(if words mean anything,) death to half the population of the world, are too "nuanced" for literal understanding by someone as ignorant as myself, (a person who's had almost a decade of intense Christian indoctrination.)

Gotcha! Well then...since I am obviously so "ignorant" of Christianity, I see how such a learned person as yourself can dismiss my little challenge for an explaination of how any sane person can proclaim to be a follower of such gibberish...as not being worthy of civil discussion..)

Gotcha! Well then...since I am obviously so "ignorant" of Christianity, I see how such a learned person as yourself can dismiss my little challenge for an explaination of how any sane person can proclaim to be a follower of such gibberish...as not being worthy of civil discussion.

??....and what is it you believe you "gotcha" me with?.....you have not demonstrated any further knowledge of Christianity in this post, if anything you have demonstrated that you believe it goes no further than Judaism....

a person who's had almost a decade of intense Christian indoctrination.

sorry, but spending your time in Sunday School trying to catch the reflection in a girl's patent leather shoes is NOT the equivalent of understanding Christianity......

[preservanation]

sorry, but spending your time in Sunday School trying to catch the reflection in a girl's patent leather shoes is NOT the equivalent of understanding Christianity......Let's just try to keep Bill Clinton's religious "views" out of this thread, OK?

[PostmodernProphet]

if however, you do have a good understanding of Christianity, but are merely hiding it from view, perhaps you could explain the difference of "righteousness" as understood in the OT and "righteousness" as understood in the NT, following the incarnation of the Christ.....it is certainly relevant to the topic.....[hr]Why didn't he "choose" to love all humans?

he did....he chose Israel as a tool by which to bless the rest....

in Genesis we read that Abraham met and talked with a man called a high priest of God....at that time, most of the peoples of the region east of the Mediterranean worshiped God.....several of the books of the prophets are directed to peoples other than Israel.....Israel was used to punish tribes of Canaan who were disobedient to God and Israel was told not to fight with others who WERE obedient....

God didn't have a relationship ONLY with Israel, he had a SPECIAL relationship with Israel......

[Ralph]

if however, you do have a good understanding of Christianity, but are merely hiding it from view, perhaps you could explain the difference of "righteousness" as understood in the OT and "righteousness" as understood in the NT, following the incarnation of the Christ.....it is certainly relevant to the topic.....[hr]Why didn't he "choose" to love all humans?

he did....he chose Israel as a tool by which to bless the rest....

in Genesis we read that Abraham met and talked with a man called a high priest of God....at that time, most of the peoples of the region east of the Mediterranean worshiped God.....several of the books of the prophets are directed to peoples other than Israel.....Israel was used to punish tribes of Canaan who were disobedient to God and Israel was told not to fight with others who WERE obedient....

God didn't have a relationship ONLY with Israel, he had a SPECIAL relationship with Israel......


Yes, and to conclude how God has blessed ALL the nations of the world, beginning first with the "example" that He had chosen, national Israel, now has in the "last days" blessed "spiritual Israel", which by definition is any and all who are but grafted into the lineage of the Hebrew faith, as declared in the scriptures to be the SONS OF ABRAHAM, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and HEIRS according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29). Thus, it goes full circle. By choosing Israel as an example of light to all the nations of the world, God's plan made from the beginning has indeed gone full circle in conclusion of blessing the ENTIRE WORLD, by sanctifying them in His truth, and His word is indeed TRUTH, as declared by the Christ in John 17:17. (R)

[Easy90]

"..free will simply means you have the capability to make alternate choices....you retain that capability even if God knows in advance which choice you will make.....you are not compelled by his knowledge to make a choice." PP

Ah...Gotcha! (by that, I mean I see what you're saying.)...but of course, that makes no sense at all. Logically, it loops back and feeds on it's own inanity.

You're not "compelled by His foreknowledge of your actions..." You are destined by them. If what you're going to do is already known, then you cannot, by any linear, sane logic, do but what you're "known in advance" to do. Therefore the idea that you can choose to do something other than what is known you will do, is pure nonsense. Example: If I know you're going to break your leg tomorrow for a fact...then, tomorrow, you will break your leg. Otherwise, it's not known, and cannot be a fact. Yet, by your convoluted "logic"...God can know what you will do...but you still, might do otherwise. That's saying your infallible Supreme Being...could be wrong...if you so choose to make him wrong.

Sorry friend...your belief with regard to this subject defies logic. No amount of insults slung my way will make up for the fact that what you just said is gibberish of the highest order.

[PostmodernProphet]

"..free will simply means you have the capability to make alternate choices....you retain that capability even if God knows in advance which choice you will make.....you are not compelled by his knowledge to make a choice." PP

Ah...Gotcha! (by that, I mean I see what you're saying.)...but of course, that makes no sense at all. Logically, it loops back and feeds on it's own inanity.

You're not "compelled by His foreknowledge of your actions..." You are destined by them. If what you're going to do is already known, then you cannot, by any linear, sane logic, do but what you're "known in advance" to do. Therefore the idea that you can choose to do something other than what is known you will do, is pure nonsense. Example: If I know you're going to break your leg tomorrow for a fact...then, tomorrow, you will break your leg. Otherwise, it's not known, and cannot be a fact. Yet, by your convoluted "logic"...God can know what you will do...but you still, might do otherwise. That's saying your infallible Supreme Being...could be wrong...if you so choose to make him wrong.

Sorry friend...your belief with regard to this subject defies logic. No amount of insults slung my way will make up for the fact that what you just said is gibberish of the highest order.

no, you are merely "destined" to make a choice which he had prior knowledge of.....if you choose "yes" he will have always known you would choose yes, if you choose "no" he will have always known you would choose no, but since he would have known it whichever choice you make it is only "destined" that you make a choice, not which choice you make......

God knows I will choose to do some aggressive rollerblading tomorrow, including trying to jump a 65 foot gap.....he doesn't force me to try the impossible but in that instance God and every person with a rudimentary knowledge of physics knows that I will not accomplish the jump.....the fact that the results are known does not mean it isn't my choice to attempt the jump.....

[Easy90]

no, you are merely "destined" to make a choice which he had prior knowledge of.....if you choose "yes" he will have always known you would choose yes, if you choose "no" he will have always known you would choose no, but since he would have known it whichever choice you make it is only "destined" that you make a choice, not which choice you make...... PP

Gibberish!

Since you apparently have the liberty (in your mind's eye) to redefine words with new meanings....discussing anything that requires thought and logic with you is a bit akin to nailing Jello to a wall.

If you (or God) know(s) in advance what someone is going to do...then the awareness of what their "choice" will be...PRECLUDES there being a "choice."

If God knows I will be offered pancakes or ham and eggs for breakfast tomorrow...and he KNOWS I will "choose" to have ham and eggs...I can't "choose" to have something else. I MUST do what the Supreme Being KNOWS I will do...for to choose pancakes would be to prove God to be ignorant of the future....that is...to have been wrong! What you're saying is...God knows what you're gonna do...but he could be wrong. LOL! Really? What else could God be wrong about?

[Ralph]

The only way that we will know what God knows, is IF AND WHEN HE CHOOSES TO REVEAL what He knows, nothing more, as stated in scripture, "The SECRET things belong unto the Lord our God; but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of the law." (Deut.29:29). Thus, what God knows "WILL" occur, and what we know by the choice of our actions are two completely different and distinct things. If in fact we had "FOREKNOWLEDGE" (But we do not, only God has foreknowledge) which you are suggesting by abstract logic we do, we would not be the masters of our fate, which God concludes us to be in control of our own destiny. Ezekiel 18, concludes such, "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the of the son is mine; the soul THAT SINNETH, it shall DIE" (Vs.4). "Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God" (Vs.9). "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the Father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" (Vs. 20). In other words, it is the action of those that chose to sin that causes the death of the soul, not God in his foreknowledge. Because He might know that we are to fail, this does not preclude us making any choices thereof which might lead to this fact.

As I said, we are continually commanded to choose in the scriptures. (Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21). Thus we do not have foreknowledge of our choices as does God, nothing precludes us from choosing a choice that God already knows we will make, He may know, but we do not, thus we have engaged our "free will" to make this choice. Just because someone does not have the cognation of reason to "comprehend" the ways of God does not preclude these ways from being true. In other words, who are we to believe, "You that has offered only OPINION" that it is illogical, or God whom has provided book, chapter and verse of "revealed knowledge" that states specifically that MAN is forced to choose of "free will"? I choose, Door number 2, I shall believe the revealed word of God, not the opined speculation of absurd logic. (R)

[PostmodernProphet]

no, you are merely "destined" to make a choice which he had prior knowledge of.....if you choose "yes" he will have always known you would choose yes, if you choose "no" he will have always known you would choose no, but since he would have known it whichever choice you make it is only "destined" that you make a choice, not which choice you make...... PP

Gibberish!

Since you apparently have the liberty (in your mind's eye) to redefine words with new meanings....discussing anything that requires thought and logic with you is a bit akin to nailing Jello to a wall.

If you (or God) know(s) in advance what someone is going to do...then the awareness of what their "choice" will be...PRECLUDES there being a "choice."

If God knows I will be offered pancakes or ham and eggs for breakfast tomorrow...and he KNOWS I will "choose" to have ham and eggs...I can't "choose" to have something else. I MUST do what the Supreme Being KNOWS I will do...for to choose pancakes would be to prove God to be ignorant of the future....that is...to have been wrong! What you're saying is...God knows what you're gonna do...but he could be wrong. LOL! Really? What else could God be wrong about?



if I knew you were going to call that gibberish does that mean I forced you to type it?.....how did I do that when I don't know where you and your keyboard reside?.....


I MUST do what the Supreme Being KNOWS I will do...

this is really a silly argument, do you actually believe this stuff or is it some kind of initiation you folks are putting me through....

he knows what you will do, even when you do the opposite of what you "must" do.....there is no choice that you could make which would make him "wrong" because whatever choice you make, he will be right.....doesn't mean you can't make a choice, simply means you can't fool him.....[hr]simply stated, there is no causal relationship between his "knowing" and your "choosing"....there is however, a causal relationship between your choosing and his knowing......your choosing causes him to know.....his knowing does not cause you to choose.....

[Easy90]

if I knew you were going to call that gibberish does that mean I forced you to type it?.....

That's called "deflection." But I am a patient person. ABSOLUTELY! If you KNEW (by way of being all-knowing...as your faith says God is...) that I was going to call that gibberish, it means that I was going to do it. I wouldn't have a choice. Foreknowledge of an event happening means that the event must happen...else you wouldn't have "known" it was going to happen.

how did I do that when I don't know where you and your keyboard reside?.....

Well..you didn't do it. You're not God... And my point is, you can't claim that a God knows all...but gives his creations (us) a free will...that is gibberish and fails even the most elementary test of logic. And BTW...compounding gibberish upon gibberish hardly makes your point.

Another way of putting it is...Free will means there's a "chance" someone might make one decision rather than another. If someone KNOWS the outcome..even before the event is considered...then there can be NO CHANCE of the "other" choice ever happening. So...someone who is going to abort a fetus...has no free will to do otherwise...because God knew it would happen. A murderer has no choice but to murder..God knew he would do that even when he was a fetus...Knowing that will happen predestines it to happen. There's no escaping that reality if words mean things.

God either knows what we will do in advance, meaning we really didn't have a choice, OR he doesn't...meaning he really has no clue what we might do. Given the Christian POV is, he knows everything...the concept of an omnipotent God who gives free will...is impossible.

[PostmodernProphet]

if I knew you were going to call that gibberish does that mean I forced you to type it?.....

That's called "deflection." But I am a patient person. ABSOLUTELY! If you KNEW (by way of being all-knowing...as your faith says God is...) that I was going to call that gibberish, it means that I was going to do it. I wouldn't have a choice. Foreknowledge of an event happening means that the event must happen...else you wouldn't have "known" it was going to happen.

how did I do that when I don't know where you and your keyboard reside?.....

Well..you didn't do it. You're not God... And my point is, you can't claim that a God knows all...but gives his creations (us) a free will...that is gibberish and fails even the most elementary test of logic. And BTW...compounding gibberish upon gibberish hardly makes your point.

Another way of putting it is...Free will means there's a "chance" someone might make one decision rather than another. If someone KNOWS the outcome..even before the event is considered...then there can be NO CHANCE of the "other" choice ever happening. So...someone who is going to abort a fetus...has no free will to do otherwise...because God knew it would happen. A murderer has no choice but to murder..God knew he would do that even when he was a fetus...Knowing that will happen predestines it to happen. There's no escaping that reality if words mean things.

God either knows what we will do in advance, meaning we really didn't have a choice, OR he doesn't...meaning he really has no clue what we might do. Given the Christian POV is, he knows everything...the concept of an omnipotent God who gives free will...is impossible.


riddle me this....you claim that God's omniscience eliminates your ability to choose....that the fact that he knows what you are going to choose forces you to act in that way.....

but, since you are not omniscient you do not know what it is that God knows you are going to do.....

so, how is your choice compelled?.....

let's say that tomorrow you are going to see an envelope lying face down on the street.....whether or not you pick it up is going to change your life forever.....

God knows what you are going to do, but.....he hasn't told you what he knows.....

does he know you are going to pick it up or does he know you are going to walk past it?......

since you don't know which he knows to be true, it cannot possibly influence your action....thus, your choice remains unaffected by his knowledge.....

[piratemonkey]

If you were about to flip a coin, but you already knew for certain that it was going to come up "heads," do you even need to flip that coin?

Is it really going to be a random 50/50 event at that point?

Answer those questions and you'll see why omniscience screws up freedom of choice. "Influence" isn't the problem. The philosophical issue is that no choice is actually being made, if the result is already known.

[Easy90]

riddle me this....you claim that God's omniscience eliminates your ability to choose....that the fact that he knows what you are going to choose forces you to act in that way..... PP

If God knows what I will do, then it is impossible for me to do anything EXCEPT what he knows I will do. For, if I were to do otherwise, then God wouldn't have known I would do it..and if that's the case, then God cannot be omnipotent!

Why is that simple linear logic so difficult for you to understand? Could it be you are brainwashed?

but, since you are not omniscient you do not know what it is that God knows you are going to do.....so, how is your choice compelled?..... PP

My choice isn't "compelled" it's predestined! If you write a book, and therefore know how it ends...it will always end the same way. You can't say a book that has been written...has the will to end differently.

By the same token, if God (the fictional character you so deeply believe in, in spite of the logic that screams at you telling you it can't be,) knows what will happen...and HE CANNOT ER..it can't happen differently...hence you cannot have a CHOICE in the matter.

You cannot concede the logic of this, because to do so means your entire paradigm is without merit. So, I really do understand why you fight it. :madlaugh:

[PostmodernProphet]

Is it really going to be a random 50/50 event at that point?

????....how do you propose to explain how omniscience alters statistics?.......

If you were about to flip a coin, but you already knew for certain that it was going to come up "heads," do you even need to flip that coin?

uh, yes....because I don't know it's going to come up heads....God does, and he hasn't filled me in......[hr]If God knows what I will do, then it is impossible for me to do anything EXCEPT what he knows I will do. For, if I were to do otherwise, then God wouldn't have known I would do it..and if that's the case, then God cannot be omnipotent!

Why is that simple linear logic so difficult for you to understand? Could it be you are brainwashed?

it is difficult to understand because it is NOT logic, it is error.....one does not proceed from the other......

while it is not possible for me to do something which he would not have known I would do, that has no effect at all upon my action....I have no knowledge of that which he is aware of, thus it can have no impact upon my action.....[hr]You cannot concede the logic of this, because to do so means your entire paradigm is without merit.

lol, there is no "logic" in your claim to concede.....your choice is not predestined, it is preknown....his knowledge has no effect at all upon your choice, because that which he has knowledge of is unknown to you....if it is unknown to you, it is impossible for it to have an impact upon your choice.....your claim isn't logical, it's an absurdity.....

[Easy90]

that has no effect at all upon my action...your choice remains unaffected by his knowledge..... PP

So, you're saying you could make God wrong by choosing something he knew you would not do? Aren't you a bit afraid you're saying God really isn't omnipotent? You can TRICK God? That's a bit blasphemous, isn't it?

If your premise is that God knows everything...but you maintain that you can choose to do something he knows you won't do...Then you are contradicting yourself. Perhaps you are confused about the meaning of the word "choose."

You keep saying his foreknowledge of what you will choose has no effect on your choice..(and it wouldn't if we weren't speaking about an omnipotent being that knows everything...) but since words mean things...it means that ultimately, you have no choice but to do what he knows you will do. The fact that you are unaware that you have no choice is irrelevant. The fact that you're apparently not able to understand the logic involved in that rather simple truth only indicates that you're brainwashed.

[Keith Hamburger]

"If there is anyone, or any being, that knows the future and what will happen, free will is completely negated. If any being knows what your free will will lead you to, you have no free will, all is programmed" KH

Bingo! You win the prize! :thumbsup:

This is an inverted ideology, the fact that there is free will must conclude that there is the option of "choice". If there was no option to choose, then there would be no free will at all if one does not have the ability to choose "wrongly". The scriptures themselves "contradict" this inversion of projected accusation, that God dictates the life of every man "individually". This is simply not shown in the truth that the Scriptures present, because God has said that there is a plan of salvation that was gestated before the beginning of time does not imply that He chooses each and every individual and guides his path, all this means is that a way of salvation has been established and it is up to each individual to find his/her correct path by "choosing" which path to follow in gaining this salvation. Consider the choices, that God as said that He has allowed man to choose.
...
[and more and more drivel]

And, you are obviously one of the category that doesn't "get it".

I said nothing about God planning our lives, just that if he knows our lives, that knowledge, in and of itself, negates free will.

In God's mind, the game has been played and he knows the outcome. I never said he decided the outcome, just that he knows the outcome.

It's like placing bets on a sporting event after it's over.

Oedipus made every attempt not to have sex with his mother, but, when it happened exactly as the Oracle foretold, he still felt guilty for doing so. That guilt was completely unjustified as, once the Oracle stated what would happen, that the even was predestined, there would be nothing that Oedipus could have done avoided, therefore, his actions had nothing to do with free will.

You have to expand beyond our linear view of time to understand what it means to something or someone outside of that view.

Keith

[PostmodernProphet]

So, you're saying you could make God wrong by choosing something he knew you would not do?

no, and you know I have not said that....isn't that a rather childish game to play in an honest debate?....whatever I choose, God will have known my choice.....whatever he knows is unknown to me, so it has no impact on my decision.....

If your premise is that God knows everything..
yes....
but you maintain that you can choose to do something he knows you won't do..
I have stated no such thing....and you know full well I have stated no such thing....you begin to annoy....

You keep saying his foreknowledge of what you will choose has no effect on your choice..
yes....
The fact that you are unaware that you have no choice is irrelevant.

the claim we have no choice is an absurdity which you cannot support logically....

The fact that you're apparently not able to understand the logic involved in that rather simple truth only indicates that you're brainwashed.

I'm sorry you aren't able to present a coherent argument to support your position, but it goes that way sometimes....

[Ralph]

Some need to get a "grasp" upon what the Scriptures actually teach concerning "foreknowledge". Many are presenting a position that God due to His Omnipresence and total control of His creation somehow claims to have the ability to "See" into the future. This is not what the scriptures teach at all. God has "foreknowledge" of future events due to the fact that He has the capacity to "dictate" future events through His ability to control any situation in His position of Supreme Ruler.

The discussion can get distorted due to man wanting to add to the knowledge that God has not actually revealed. The problem arises as people try to comprehend how God can state future events so accurately. We know that we do not have this ability, so some come up with explanations. Explanations that are not provided in the Word that has been revealed. For instance, Calvinists decided that God predetermined everything in advance. It is true that God had a plan of salvation from the beginning to provide an opportunity for all mankind to gain eternal salvation and fellowship with Him. But this plan does not involve the predetermined salvation of "every" human being, just the ones that meet the requirements for that salvation, those being the ones that choose to follow God's will. God Has chosen certain individuals sometimes before they were born, but that was done at the discretion of God and does not set an example of everyone being predetermined as to their fate. As I said, some would have us believe that God has laid out a script and man has no choice as to his fate. Why bother? If that were the case? Why not simply create those that He wanted to eternally fellowship with in the first place? Would it not be cruel indeed for God to have predetermined every soul that was to spend eternity in Hell, without the possibility of salvation? Is this the justice of a fair and impartial God that has proclaimed not to be a respecter of person?

Some have determined that predestination is the reason that God has foreknowledge. Others have decided that God must exist outside of time, thus He can simply peek at the future. Though the concept of time as a stream of continuity where an entity can go back and forth through it to different points is in fact a product of man's "speculation" and is offered no where in the scripts. We are admonished to teach only what is in the revealed word of God or what has been commanded (1 Cor. 4:6, 11 John 9, 1 Peter 4:11). In fact if we add unto what has been revealed we are making "The Spirit of Truth" a spirit that speaks only opinion when He declares that we have everything pertaining unto life and godliness (11Peter 1:3). The Bible never speaks of time in the manner as being in a stream that can be navigated or that the future can concurrently exist with the present and the past.

In the truest sense, time is the ordering of events. We measure time by the movement of our Sun(a star), in relation to the moon, planets and other stars, but these movements are not really time, this is simply man's idea of what time is presented in his ability to reason such. In reality all man can control is the present, and hope that his choices might determine a favorable future.

The Bible speaks of God being grieved. "And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart" (Genesis 6:6). Have you wondered how God could be grieved if He knew absolutely in advance that mankind would get that corrupt? Or how could Jesus marvel at the centurion's faith (Matt. 8:10)? The point is that the Bible tells us that mankind was given free-will. Thus everything is not laid out in advance by any kind of future foreknowledge of exactness. It is true that God is omnipresent, all powerful, and indeed knows by man's spirit what rests in his heart, but now where do the scriptures teach that God actually has the ability to be in two different times at once. As I said the question God asks is can that which is in man's heart be changed for the better?

The Bible does not teach that the future exists so that God can peek at upcoming events. Many things are stated as conditional events. "For if you men will indeed perform this thing, then kings will enter the gates of this house, sitting in David's place on his throne, riding in chariots and on horses, even the king himself and his servants and his people. But if you will not obey these words, I swear by Myself," declares the Lord, "that this house will become a desolation" (Jer. 22:4-5). If the future exists and God could simply look at it, He won't have to say "if". God is stating that men have a choice and depending on their choice different results will come in the future.

Then too, God speaks of making things happen in the future; That is, things are not set in stone but events arise because God is simply manipulating the world as it exists. "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and will do all My pleasure,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it" (Isaiah 46: 9-11). What we see is the strength of God's will and the demonstration of His power. He determines what He wants for an outcome and then is able to bring it about---no matter what, man nor nature does not have the ability to stop Him, no matter what choices that individuals make in the meantime, if He cannot use one, He will use another. That by far is more awesome in a display of power than saying we are all following some divine script written before the world was created and from which nothing can be deviated. But notice that in the last passage of scriptures presented from the Book of Isaiah, God speaks of Himself as existing in time; there is a PAST, that can be remembered, and a present that must be acted upon, and a future that hasn't happened yet. But neither the past or future are spoken of as places which can be visited or revisited. (R)

[Keith Hamburger]

The discussion can get distorted due to man wanting to add to the knowledge that God has not actually revealed. The problem arises as people try to comprehend how God can state future events so accurately.

Once again, one that doesn't "get it".

It has nothing to do with what was revealed, or what God predicts for us for the future.

If God knows how the game ends, as far as God is concerned, the game is over and has already been played.

The rest of your post, with quotations of scripture, is worthless in discussing the logic of God with those that don't believe. Leave off the scripture unless you're having discussions with other believers. Those of us that don't accept the book as "inspired word", will give no weight to the points, whatsoever.

Keith

[Ralph]

The discussion can get distorted due to man wanting to add to the knowledge that God has not actually revealed. The problem arises as people try to comprehend how God can state future events so accurately.

Once again, one that doesn't "get it".

It has nothing to do with what was revealed, or what God predicts for us for the future.

If God knows how the game ends, as far as God is concerned, the game is over and has already been played.

The rest of your post, with quotations of scripture, is worthless in discussing the logic of God with those that don't believe. Leave off the scripture unless you're having discussions with other believers. Those of us that don't accept the book as "inspired word", will give no weight to the points, whatsoever.

Keith

The problem being, PROVE WHAT YOU ARE ESPOUSING BY THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD, book, chapter, and verse and you will have a convert, if not.......YOUR "OPINION" IS WORTHLESS compared to the words that were inspired by the "spirit of truth", if "your words" were not inspired by the spirit of truth, just what spirit were they inspired by? It's real simple, just show the book, chapter, and verse from where your ideology is drawn, as we are to use the scriptures as our sword to defend against "false doctrine". (2Tim. 3:16-17). It is nice to conclude that the words holds no weight in ideology, with the exception of atheism, for that is the only thing that can defeat its roots, THE TRUTH. (R)

[Pookie]

I just went back and read the original post, so I thought I'd weigh in with how I look at this.
God or no God, what we have is a beautiful planet to live on and US. We have brains and there are millions of gifted people, from skilled surgeons to incredible technological minds, to teachers and ordinary people who change lives every day.
But sometimes things don't work the way we want them to, and some folks blame God, the government, the doctors, the weather, anything but their own bad choices or the fact that some things just don't work out the way we want them to.
We cannot expect God to waltz into our lives every time something bad happens and fix it instantly. That is unrealistic.
We would never have gotten this far if all of us had just wrung our hands and waited for God to take care of everything. He is called the Comforter in the Bible, but I don't recall God ever promising to fix every single thing for us, which is probably the reason He gave us brains and made us the smartest creatures on Earth.
I also don't recall any promises made by God to any of us that life would always be perfect without tragedy and disaster, both personal and widespread.
And when bad things do happen, we have two choices. Understand it for what it is and try to learn from it, or go blame someone.
Personally, I try to learn. Lessons stay with me a lot longer that getting mad and blaming God or whatever and these lessons have the potential to make me a better person for my own sake, where blaming just makes me look like an ass.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Ralph]

People wish to place the concept of God into a "BOX" by trying to disprove His possible existence by the very laws of physics that were gestated by He. They try to present their pseudo intellect as superior to the creator. The very thing they wish to establish a form of secular truth in is IMPOSSIBLE. The laws of physics make it an impossibility for that which was a product of being created, either by deity or natural methodology to be greater than the whole from which it was drawn. But, the exercise in futility is most enjoyable to observe as they try to present their FAKE INTELLIGENCE in a such a puffed up pompous nature. Mr. Webster defines SNOBBERY; the attitude or behavior of someone that looks DOWN on those considered INFERIOR. God describes people such as this, "Always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2Tim. 3:7-9).

A perfect example of such would the late Carl Sagan who describes the ideology of pseudo intelligent man exactly, as he spent his entire life searching for the truth that surrounded him, yet he never found it. When asked about his quest via the scientific method, he responded, "Science thrives on errors, cutting them away one by one. False conclusions are drawn all the time, but they are drawn tentatively. Hypothesis are framed so they are capable of being disproved....Science gropes and staggers towards understanding." Consider these words that he dedicated his life to observing. What he is saying is that there is no truth, something is merely considered the truth until the next best "idea" comes along. We are simply to believe what is sure to be proven a lie at some point in the future, until such time that it is proven such. A strange way indeed for someone to dedicate their life in questing for the supposed truth.....placing everything upon the concept of professed LIES. He goes on to say this very thing, "A scientist has no more trust of science as an authority than he does of religion, government, or superstition. Science teaches a distrust of authority and a distrust of one's own hypothesis."

Is it not strange to say the least that "WE" are supposed to believe these speculated theories as evidence of science based upon truth.....When they do not even believe it themselves?

To contrast this ideology, the Scriptures claim to be truth. (John 17:17). And as of this day, not ONE truth found therein has been empirically disproved. Thus, I choose God's truth, which does not claim to be based upon LIES. (R)

[PostmodernProphet]

The discussion can get distorted due to man wanting to add to the knowledge that God has not actually revealed. The problem arises as people try to comprehend how God can state future events so accurately.

Once again, one that doesn't "get it".

It has nothing to do with what was revealed, or what God predicts for us for the future.

If God knows how the game ends, as far as God is concerned, the game is over and has already been played.

The rest of your post, with quotations of scripture, is worthless in discussing the logic of God with those that don't believe. Leave off the scripture unless you're having discussions with other believers. Those of us that don't accept the book as "inspired word", will give no weight to the points, whatsoever.

Keith


I can't imagine why you bothered to post that....you knew we wouldn't like it, so as far as you were concerned, it was game over and the thread had already been closed.....

obviously, there IS something to be gained by continuing, since WE don't know what God knows....we continue to act un-"caused" and non-"destined"......we need to carry out our existence....on our own terms and in our own way......

[Easy90]

Quote:
but you maintain that you can choose to do something he knows you won't do..

I have stated no such thing....and you know full well I have stated no such thing.... PP

Actually, you did...however apparently, you don't even understand your own writing.

you begin to annoy.... PP

Right. Well, maybe that's that tiny little sliver in your brain that is open to some semblance of logic trying to tell you something. For some folks, reality is really an annoying experience.

[PostmodernProphet]

you don't even understand your own writing

??....I expect I am more qualified at understanding it than most......since I have specifically stated, undeniably, that he will know what it is we choose, no matter what we choose, it is a bit odd to claim I have stated we can make a choice he will not know about.....

Now, there is something we need addressed by you, since you have studiously avoided responding to it.....

how do you claim that God's knowledge of our choice forces us to make a particular choice, when his knowledge is not communicated to us......how can you claim causation when there is no communication?.....

[piratemonkey]

Is it really going to be a random 50/50 event at that point?

????....how do you propose to explain how omniscience alters statistics?.......

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)

Just for reference, this is the theory to which Einstein responded, "God does not play dice with the universe."

Einstein was wrong
...and now the Uncertainty Principle is a commonly accepted tenet of physics.

[Ralph]

Well people it has been most enjoyable having "reasoned together". But I am afraid this horse has been beaten past DEATH. There are no hard feelings or attitude of condescension from my corner, as it was a spirited topic. I only wish to defend the truth that is presented in the scriptures, the basis of "MY FAITH" depends upon it. Thus when any ideology is presented that can not be confirmed from the words therein, it represents a "meaningless" opinion as far as "I" personally am concerned. I did enjoy the retorts from "both" sides, as it is clear that intelligence does have a home on this site, and that includes those that represent ideology that rests at a totally different polar end of cognation to reason than mine. Hey, this is America, and sometimes we simply "disagree". As I said, my presentations were intended only in defense of the written word with nothing personal being represented in my retorts. Have a good day all, as you exercise your inherent ability to choose freely, just as we ALL have demonstrated by example. (R)

[Pookie]

I personally don't think there is anything a bit wrong with believing in the Bible or any other religious text, for that matter - of course, just as long as people don't get carried away with extremism and start flying planes into buildings again - because I think it's important to have faith. Just simple, straight faith. Religion is easy; anyone can have religion, but faith comes from the very heart and soul and no one can teach that.
People do the most amazing, wonderful things sometimes just because they have faith and this world is better for it.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Easy90]

Now, there is something we need addressed by you, since you have studiously avoided responding to it.....

how do you claim that God's knowledge of our choice forces us to make a particular choice, when his knowledge is not communicated to us......how can you claim causation when there is no communication?..... PP
OK; Again..Short answer:
Because....If I know you will wake up tomorrow and put on a blue shirt..then it is impossible that you will wake up tomorrow and put on a red one...regardless of whether you think you are choosing between a red shirt and a blue one at that time.

Long answer:
Sigh! Your question is disingenuous. I have answered it over and over..but apparently you're not able to comprehend the concept. As I said, I am a patient person, so let's try again"

It's a basic belief in most all of Christianity (which you've said you agree with) that God is omnipotent. He/she (depends on which set of gonads you attribute to God) has foreknowledge of all that is, was, or will ever be. If that is so...(and you say it is)...then it logically follows that he/she knows the eventual choices each of us will make in our lives... (You agree with that.)

That means that our lives are a book that has already been written, even though we (as mere mortals) are going through it page by page. (a little allegory there for ya.) THEREFORE, the end of the book cannot be affected by any "choice" we might make during the story...because, since God has all ready written the book...so to speak...the end has been determined. SOOOO..If we end up in "Hell"...then God always knew that would be the case (else...the basic premise of God you have, is flawed.)

We don't need any "communication" or realization that the concept of choice is impossible..since we are just a character in the book...that God has already written...he knows how it will end...and therefore we cannot make a "choice" that can change it.

[PostmodernProphet]

Because....If I know you will wake up tomorrow and put on a blue shirt..then it is impossible that you will wake up tomorrow and put on a red one...regardless of whether you think you are choosing between a red shirt and a blue one at that time.

since I don't know you "know" I am going to put on a blue shirt, your knowledge has no effect whatsever on my ability to choose a color....whether I chose a blue or a red one, you will simply have known the one I would choose....my choice dictates which one you knew, your knowledge does not dictate which one I choose.....

and that is the logical error in your argument.....

[Easy90]

since I don't know you "know" I am going to put on a blue shirt, your knowledge has no effect whatsever on my ability to choose a color....whether I chose a blue or a red one, you will simply have known the one I would choose.... yeah...and by my knowing what you will choose, you cannot make but one "choice." You, in thinking otherwise therefore, re-invent the meaning of the word "choice." LOL!

See... you still fail to grasp. Since I KNOW (and let's just say I am GOD, so I can't be wrong...) you WILL put on a blue shirt...it makes no difference what you know, or don't know. You will put on a blue shirt...and SINCE I am GOD...I can't be wrong. THEREFORE...you might believe you're making a choice...but in fact...you're not. The factual foreknowledge of what you will do means you have no choice but to do it...

my choice dictates which one you knew, your knowledge does not dictate which one I choose..... PP

Except for the fact you cannot choose any other than blue...you're correct.

and that is the logical error in your argument... PP

What you don't realize, is that in your insistence of there being a real choice, you are making the argument that God is not omnipotent. LOL!

And that's the huge disconnect in your reasoning that you are blind about.

[Ralph]

I just can't not let this "circular" reasoning that goes in circles and never answers anything continue. As was pointed out, the "foreknowledge" of God rests in his ability not to see into the future with absolute "minute" certainty but with his capacity on ACTING as the SUPREME RULER of our dominion, I.E. this physical existence that we/mankind have chosen to define as TIME. Time is not REAL it is but a perception of motion and how man regulates it. Therefore when "ANY" study is approached therein it can only be "theorized" in the hypothetical but can not be applied to the actual physical world, because it is but IMAGINED by man's cognation to reason such, it can not be proven to be anything but a method of measuring the distance of relative travel between objects. Where is the PROOF of a continuous flow of time? It rests in theory only. Where is the PROOF of time existing concurrently and simultaneously with a PAST or PRESENT and FUTURE It rests only in theory.

Yet "YOU" seem to conclude based upon an "IDEA" that by the logic that man and his cognation of reason have presented in "speculation" somehow disproves God's existence because He claims the ability to "manipulate" any point in the future to "make" reality come into alignment with what He has "purposed". All this proves is that many people live in a world of "theory" and take its example of speculation as empirical evidence. And yet want to chastise others for following an example of faith that has yet to be empirically proven wrong......ONCE. By example, just who does live in a world of "fantasy"? When it was pointed out that the scriptures do not claim that God has the ability to see into the future, but has foreknowledge by being able to stay a step ahead of man by having the ability to know what is in his heart(mind) by representation of his Spirit and as such can "manipulate" His purpose upon mankind at His will, you dismissed it as "ranting" and continued in your hypothetical speculation concerning God's ability to breach an "imaginary" time line constructed only in the "MIND" of man. That about sums it up, does it not?

Just what have you accomplished, except a demonstration of materialistic humanism? You have proven nothing, just as is with ALL HYPOTHETICAL THEORIES that would be physical law if they were but "PROVABLE". Our position has been presented and "confirmed" in the truth of God's word. This is All we are capable of doing, pointing out what we accept as the truth of God and our reasoning thereof because it is contained in WHAT IS WRITTEN....the basis of our faith. You have presented the ideology of your faith, it is exampled in faith only because you have FAILED to demonstrate by empirical evidence that it is true. Yet your FAITH is pompously projected as superior. Thus, it can only be deemed as resting in pseudo or false presentations of what is professed as factual but can not be proven as such. Yet by demonstration we remain entirely within the bonds of what has been written and concluded as truth by those that gestated our faith, those that were inspired by God to script the revealed word of God (2Tim 3:16-17) Thus, you can circumnavigate this TRUTH 24/7 without being able to divide it by the radius of your "speculation", it just becomes nauseating watching you circle this football perpetually looking for a WHOLE in which to insert your.....LOGIC. (R)

[PostmodernProphet]

and by my knowing what you will choose, you cannot make but one "choice."
no...that is a logical error...just think about the semantics of it....you know what I CHOOSE....it is my choice which causes your knowledge, not the other way around......

Except for the fact you cannot choose any other than blue..

not at all....I may choose red....in which case you would have known I would choose red.....

What you don't realize, is that in your insistence of there being a real choice, you are making the argument that God is not omnipotent. LOL!

not at all....I think that the source of your error is that you are trying to impose temporal thought upon the situation.....you think that God's knowledge came "before", therefore it must have caused....but God is not temporal.....his knowledge comes before and after and