My "agenda"

[Keith Hamburger]

I have been accused of "showing my agenda" in my posts, which implies that I have been trying to hide something. In actuality, my "agenda" is completely open and I have nothing to hide in that regard.

To ensure that everyone is aware of such, I will her lay out my "agenda" and open it up for discussion.

I believe that force, violence and fraud, or the threat thereof, has no valid place in human relationships. I believe that the use of such is deserving of a response which may serve to ensure that those that feel they are justified in using force, violence or fraud to accomplish their personal or social goals will be disinclined to continue such behavior.

I believe that the more concentrated the entities that employ such tactics are, the more dangerous they are. Governments are completely based on the use of force, violence and fraud through regulation and taxation. Those that delegate the use of force, violence and fraud to their representative governments through advocacy for an increase in the amount used against those who have not initiated such are as guilty as the agents they employ to perform those activities. Any agents of such a government, whether the leaders or the "tools" used to carry out the activity, are fully responsible for their actions in attacking their fellow man.

As government is the greatest concentration of those that wish to implement such violence in human interactions any abuse of the power granted to them must be resisted as strongly as is practicably possible. Given the power of the organization actually responding with appropriate violence to protect yourself from such actions is suicidal, therefore the most practical method of opposing such actions is to expose and protest the actions through various means.

When I protest against someone, such as a police officer, who has abused the rights of a fellow citizen through the use of violence, or the threat thereof, that is fully justified as the agent of the government is as responsible for the abuse of power as the person directing them. And those that defend such abuses under various guises such as "the price we pay for a 'civilized' society" are equally as responsible.

So, let's discuss. Let me know how you defend assaulting innocent people who are just trying to live their lives peaceably in the name of some sort of "social contract" or whatever excuse you wish to give.

Keith

[Truth Detector]

I have been accused of "showing my agenda" in my posts, which implies that I have been trying to hide something. In actuality, my "agenda" is completely open and I have nothing to hide in that regard.

To ensure that everyone is aware of such, I will her lay out my "agenda" and open it up for discussion.

I believe that force, violence and fraud, or the threat thereof, has no valid place in human relationships. I believe that the use of such is deserving of a response which may serve to ensure that those that feel they are justified in using force, violence or fraud to accomplish their personal or social goals will be disinclined to continue such behavior.

I believe that the more concentrated the entities that employ such tactics are, the more dangerous they are. Governments are completely based on the use of force, violence and fraud through regulation and taxation. Those that delegate the use of force, violence and fraud to their representative governments through advocacy for an increase in the amount used against those who have not initiated such are as guilty as the agents they employ to perform those activities. Any agents of such a government, whether the leaders or the "tools" used to carry out the activity, are fully responsible for their actions in attacking their fellow man.

As government is the greatest concentration of those that wish to implement such violence in human interactions any abuse of the power granted to them must be resisted as strongly as is practicably possible. Given the power of the organization actually responding with appropriate violence to protect yourself from such actions is suicidal, therefore the most practical method of opposing such actions is to expose and protest the actions through various means.

When I protest against someone, such as a police officer, who has abused the rights of a fellow citizen through the use of violence, or the threat thereof, that is fully justified as the agent of the government is as responsible for the abuse of power as the person directing them. And those that defend such abuses under various guises such as "the price we pay for a 'civilized' society" are equally as responsible.

So, let's discuss. Let me know how you defend assaulting innocent people who are just trying to live their lives peaceably in the name of some sort of "social contract" or whatever excuse you wish to give.

Keith


A few weeks living in Compton California will cure you of these views in a hurry.

But hey, isn't it convenient to live in a country that will allow you to express your views so openly without the threat of oppression?

I have always believed that people who profess a desire for anarchy do so while living in a country that protects them from the very abuses they think are perpetrated on them.

[potter]

I have been accused of "showing my agenda" in my posts, which implies that I have been trying to hide something. In actuality, my "agenda" is completely open and I have nothing to hide in that regard.

To ensure that everyone is aware of such, I will her lay out my "agenda" and open it up for discussion.

I believe that force, violence and fraud, or the threat thereof, has no valid place in human relationships. I believe that the use of such is deserving of a response which may serve to ensure that those that feel they are justified in using force, violence or fraud to accomplish their personal or social goals will be disinclined to continue such behavior.

I believe that the more concentrated the entities that employ such tactics are, the more dangerous they are. Governments are completely based on the use of force, violence and fraud through regulation and taxation. Those that delegate the use of force, violence and fraud to their representative governments through advocacy for an increase in the amount used against those who have not initiated such are as guilty as the agents they employ to perform those activities. Any agents of such a government, whether the leaders or the "tools" used to carry out the activity, are fully responsible for their actions in attacking their fellow man.

As government is the greatest concentration of those that wish to implement such violence in human interactions any abuse of the power granted to them must be resisted as strongly as is practicably possible. Given the power of the organization actually responding with appropriate violence to protect yourself from such actions is suicidal, therefore the most practical method of opposing such actions is to expose and protest the actions through various means.

When I protest against someone, such as a police officer, who has abused the rights of a fellow citizen through the use of violence, or the threat thereof, that is fully justified as the agent of the government is as responsible for the abuse of power as the person directing them. And those that defend such abuses under various guises such as "the price we pay for a 'civilized' society" are equally as responsible.

So, let's discuss. Let me know how you defend assaulting innocent people who are just trying to live their lives peaceably in the name of some sort of "social contract" or whatever excuse you wish to give.

Keith



I like your views Kieth. People cannot be oppressed unless they allow themselves to be oppressed. You should give as much as you get. If other people try to oppress you via violence and intimidation, if they try to keep you from living a peacful and fulfilling life because they have an agenda, they should expect it right back because apparently that is all they understand.

Our forfathers understood this..thus the Bill of Rights.

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.

[apdst]

Our government doesn't allow us to speak freely. It creates and nourishes an environment where we can speak freely. The government's use of force against enemies, foreign and domestic is one of the ways that it creates and nourishes our god given rights.

[Truth Detector]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.

[Pookie]

Wow, Keith. Interesting and good points there. I don't have any problems with your agenda.
I'm not really sure I have an agenda. Sure, I guess like everyone else, I want what is best for our country, but even that is sometimes hard to decide. I'd love not to pay taxes, but that isn't for the good of the country. I wish everyone had the excellent education I had, but that is unreasonable. I wish everyone could have good insurance and benefits as I do, but that is not possible.
I guess I just want everyone to have what I have, and much more if possible. I have a nice but small, modest home, vehicles that are not brand new but are reliable and safe, a job that pays well but not too well, for I'm afraid I would become snobby and forget where I came from, and all the happiness that comes from years of hard work and goal-setting, but of course, that won't happen. So I try to vote according to both my heart and head, pay my taxes without bitching, and always be there to help out a neighbor or a stranger. A few things I do feel very strongly about that will get me mad as hell is anyone who DARES to mistreat a child, an elderly person, or an animal, the legal system that I feel sometimes -- not all the time, but sometimes -- caters more to the criminal than the victim, the media which is often seen by me as a bunch of bloodthirsty vultures who can blow things out of proportion and call it "free speech," and a few other things.
So, I guess that's pretty much my agenda, such as it is. I don't even know if that qualifies as an agenda, but that's what I feel.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Torrid]

I have been accused of "showing my agenda" in my posts, which implies that I have been trying to hide something. In actuality, my "agenda" is completely open and I have nothing to hide in that regard.

To ensure that everyone is aware of such, I will her lay out my "agenda" and open it up for discussion.

I believe that force, violence and fraud, or the threat thereof, has no valid place in human relationships. I believe that the use of such is deserving of a response which may serve to ensure that those that feel they are justified in using force, violence or fraud to accomplish their personal or social goals will be disinclined to continue such behavior.

I believe that the more concentrated the entities that employ such tactics are, the more dangerous they are. Governments are completely based on the use of force, violence and fraud through regulation and taxation. Those that delegate the use of force, violence and fraud to their representative governments through advocacy for an increase in the amount used against those who have not initiated such are as guilty as the agents they employ to perform those activities. Any agents of such a government, whether the leaders or the "tools" used to carry out the activity, are fully responsible for their actions in attacking their fellow man.

As government is the greatest concentration of those that wish to implement such violence in human interactions any abuse of the power granted to them must be resisted as strongly as is practicably possible. Given the power of the organization actually responding with appropriate violence to protect yourself from such actions is suicidal, therefore the most practical method of opposing such actions is to expose and protest the actions through various means.

When I protest against someone, such as a police officer, who has abused the rights of a fellow citizen through the use of violence, or the threat thereof, that is fully justified as the agent of the government is as responsible for the abuse of power as the person directing them. And those that defend such abuses under various guises such as "the price we pay for a 'civilized' society" are equally as responsible.

So, let's discuss. Let me know how you defend assaulting innocent people who are just trying to live their lives peaceably in the name of some sort of "social contract" or whatever excuse you wish to give.

Keith


A few weeks living in Compton California will cure you of these views in a hurry.

But hey, isn't it convenient to live in a country that will allow you to express your views so openly without the threat of oppression?

I have always believed that people who profess a desire for anarchy do so while living in a country that protects them from the very abuses they think are perpetrated on them.


So taking back control and not having the government micromanage us equals anarchy? It's We the People, not We the People under a government to tax the crap out of us to gain more power.

[potter]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.


But gee...we aren't in those countries now are we. Why do you keep on telling people to shut the hell up because we have free speech? What kind of wierd thought process is that?

[Truth Detector]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.


But gee...we aren't in those countries now are we. Why do you keep on telling people to shut the hell up because we have free speech? What kind of wierd thought process is that?


You are free to show me where I have told ANYONE to "shut the hell up." However, as is typical with someone who cannot express themselves with any truth, you have to put words in my mouth to avoid honest discussion.

Perhaps you feel threatened when someone challenges your lack of coherent argument or facts?

I suggest that before you accuse me of doing something I haven't done, you ensure that I have indeed done it.

I look forward to more honesty from you in the future.

In closing, I would never want anyone to "shut the hell up". Particularly those who express their views using lies, distortions and impugning people they disagree with. It illustrates my point about their political views perfectly.

[PatrickHenry]

I'm with you, Keith.

Truth is important, but our government bases its control of us on lies.

They have willing servants in the mass/mainstream media.

And our government is in turn, controlled by elitists who have a hidden agenda.

They seek to overturn centuries of progress toward civil rights, liberty and self-determination.

[Truth_and_Power]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.


Their point is that saying a government "allows you to speak freely" builds in the assumption that all rights start with the government and are given to the people from there when and if the government feels they should be. If you read our founding documents, it is clear that their authors felt differently. They felt we had certain 'inalienable rights' given by god. Other philosophers spoke of a social contract wherein the people surrender certain rights to the government in exchange for services. Nowhere in that philosophical framework does the government 'allow' us anything. We surrender certain rights to the government by collective choice in order to gain some benefits, and the right to speak our minds is not among those.

By the way, I guess I will throw in some condescension here because it is clear to me that you are unable to communicate without it. I am not amazed that I have to explain the above, a large number of people interested in politics have an authoritarian personality type which prevents them from seeing the government & nation as subordinate to its people regardless of whether they have taken the time and have the education required to read and understand the documents on which the government is based.

[potter]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.


But gee...we aren't in those countries now are we. Why do you keep on telling people to shut the hell up because we have free speech? What kind of wierd thought process is that?


You are free to show me where I have told ANYONE to "shut the hell up." However, as is typical with someone who cannot express themselves with any truth, you have to put words in my mouth to avoid honest discussion.

Perhaps you feel threatened when someone challenges your lack of coherent argument or facts?

I suggest that before you accuse me of doing something I haven't done, you ensure that I have indeed done it.

I look forward to more honesty from you in the future.

In closing, I would never want anyone to "shut the hell up". Particularly those who express their views using lies, distortions and impugning people they disagree with. It illustrates my point about their political views perfectly.



I'm sorry, it must be the way you have phrased your responses.

your response:

But hey, isn't it convenient to live in a country that will allow you to express your views so openly without the threat of oppression?

I have always believed that people who profess a desire for anarchy do so while living in a country that protects them from the very abuses they think are perpetrated on them.

Implies to me that you want the author to "shut the hell up" and quit being critical of the government.

:dork:[hr]

As for the "country" allowing you freedom of speech..just who the hell is this "country" that is "allowing" you anything Truth? Arent "we the people" the "country" or in your mind are we just prisoners within bowing to the will of those that rule and "allow" us to speak freely?

It is a basic RIGHT of ALL men to speak freely Truth, it cannot be bestowed OR taken away by a government. So can the "government allows us to speak freely so shut the hell up" crap. :grrrr:

Its a mindset like that, that allow evil dictators to fourish.


I guess you don't think Governments can repress free speech?

Ever hear of the Soviet Union, Communist China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, or Iran? I would suggest that they would not allow you to speak freely. I hope this places my comments in the proper context. I am amazed I even have to explain it.


Their point is that saying a government "allows you to speak freely" builds in the assumption that all rights start with the government and are given to the people from there when and if the government feels they should be. If you read our founding documents, it is clear that their authors felt differently. They felt we had certain 'inalienable rights' given by god. Other philosophers spoke of a social contract wherein the people surrender certain rights to the government in exchange for services. Nowhere in that philosophical framework does the government 'allow' us anything. We surrender certain rights to the government by collective choice in order to gain some benefits, and the right to speak our minds is not among those.

By the way, I guess I will throw in some condescension here because it is clear to me that you are unable to communicate without it. I am not amazed that I have to explain the above, a large number of people interested in politics have an authoritarian personality type which prevents them from seeing the government & nation as subordinate to its people regardless of whether they have taken the time and have the education required to read and understand the documents on which the government is based.


I bow to your superior eloquence sir.

[Keith Hamburger]

It's really quite amazing that it took five days to get any response and then a dozen show up when I miss a night logging on.

A few weeks living in Compton California will cure you of these views in a hurry.

But hey, isn't it convenient to live in a country that will allow you to express your views so openly without the threat of oppression?

I have always believed that people who profess a desire for anarchy do so while living in a country that protects them from the very abuses they think are perpetrated on them.

I wouldn't live in a place like Compton. A place that criminals are subsidized and innocent people aren't allowed to defend themselves. Where I live we don't have too many problems like that because we are allowed to have the tools to defend ourselves within our homes and vehicles without restriction.

As to being "allowed" to express my views, that is the only way for civilized people to behave. If you are suggesting I should live somewhere that is uncivilized, or that having a powerful government is what guarantees me that right, you are grossly mistaken.[hr]I like your views Kieth. People cannot be oppressed unless they allow themselves to be oppressed. You should give as much as you get. If other people try to oppress you via violence and intimidation, if they try to keep you from living a peacful and fulfilling life because they have an agenda, they should expect it right back because apparently that is all they understand.

Unfortunately, there is a very heavily armed organization that does wish to drastically restrict my rights in a number of areas. Given the fact that they far outgun those of us that might be inclined to resist such oppression, and nearly half of the country has been bought off with benefits or paychecks paid for by the taxes we pay (and the debt we incur), at this point I have to tolerate a bit of oppression, without fighting back.

But, I do still have this keyboard, so that's something.
[hr]Wow, Keith. Interesting and good points there. I don't have any problems with your agenda.

Well, I don't think my "agenda" is particularly threatening to anyone, but there have been comments that imply that I am trying to "push" something I'm not willing to admit to. So, I figured I would admit to it.

I'd love not to pay taxes, but that isn't for the good of the country.

While you make a lot of good comments about your personal choices, to make things interesting, I do have to find something with which I will have to disagree.

As to taxes, they are collected with the threat (and, sometimes, the use) of violence. And, they are distributed in a manner where it is not possible to have any significant feedback. Unlike the market where we all make decisions every day, in the case of taxes all we can do is vote every two, four or six years. And, when we vote, we generally have a choice of two options that carry a complete basket of goods of which none of us will all agree.

In addition, when those funds are distributed competition from other sources are restricted, either through unfair "competition", and often through outright coercion. One key example is mass transit throughout the country. While it is heavily subsidized by the federal, state and local governments, and cannot succeed without those subsidies, any real competition is forbidden by those same governments. If a person wanted to start a private mass transit system, say a jitney service, the same government that is subsidizing the excessively expensive bus, rail and subway services, will use the guns of the government to prevent that competition.

It would take pages and pages to argue the possibilities to fund a minimal government with non or minimally coercive methods. And, to discuss the limitations of what would be legitimate functions of such a minimal government.

But, I am opposed to the system that makes up 1/3 of our total GDP, and that means it takes half of the productive portion of our GDP, in a manner that continually reduces our freedoms and options and destroys people's lives.

[smj]

I thought I'd throw in something no one has touched upon yet. "McCain Feingold" I mention this as but one example so that we not forget Congress and the Supreme Court have repealed large parts of the First Amendment by simply discarding what were once considered constitutional rights of free speech and political association. It is not that these rights have vanished. But they are no longer constitutional guarantees. They're governed by limits and qualifications imposed by Congress, the courts, state legislatures, regulatory agencies -- and lawyers' interpretations of all of the above. In essence the very document created by the Founding Fathers to protect the people from Government is now interpreted by "the enemy" by imposing how, where and when those rights exist.

[Keith Hamburger]

I thought I'd throw in something no one has touched upon yet. "McCain Feingold" I mention this as but one example so that we not forget Congress and the Supreme Court have repealed large parts of the First Amendment by simply discarding what were once considered constitutional rights of free speech and political association. It is not that these rights have vanished. But they are no longer constitutional guarantees. They're governed by limits and qualifications imposed by Congress, the courts, state legislatures, regulatory agencies -- and lawyers' interpretations of all of the above. In essence the very document created by the Founding Fathers to protect the people from Government is now interpreted by "the enemy" by imposing how, where and when those rights exist.


Yes. That is just one example of a law that is designed to prevent anyone that doesn't already have the connections to power to oppose those with the connections.

McCain is presenting himself as an "outsider" to the establishment while he is anything but. Born on a military base to an admiral son of an admiral, and living within the military his entire youth, he then joined the military and, since getting out of the military, has been involved in politics.

McCain is the ULTIMATE insider and his "campaign finance reform" bill was a way to restrict the people from gaining any control of the system.

Keith

[Osborn F. Enready]

Great OP Keith, and I am proud to share that agenda with such fine company. ;)[hr]Keith said:
McCain is presenting himself as an "outsider" to the establishment while he is anything but. Born on a military base to an admiral son of an admiral, and living within the military his entire youth, he then joined the military and, since getting out of the military, has been involved in politics.

McCain is the ULTIMATE insider and his "campaign finance reform" bill was a way to restrict the people from gaining any control of the system.

I totally agree Keith.

McCain is an establishment lapdog, and lifetime government employee.

Romney is a multinational corporate lapdog, and a lobbyist puppydog.

Hillary is a died in the wool hard-line communist.

Obama is a soft-core socialist, with visions of Marx.

Some choices..... Not a single one of those lackeys understand what it MEANS to be an American, nor are any of them fighting to retain what the majority of us value about being American, instead, they load up those values on the chopping block to be sliced and diced in the name of "security" (mcRomney) or "public welfare" (Clintobama).
:shame: :sick: :blah:

I say they should all be tried for treason, for the actions they have ALL TAKEN IN OFFICE against the Constitution, and the rights of American citizens. :fight:

At least one candidate remembers what made, and can still make America Great.....

RON PAUL 2008, regardless of party, nomination or recognition, its better than violent revolution, which may be the only choice if Paul doesn't make it.



Remember, being an informed voter is what YOU can do to keep America great.....

:help: wake up the sheeple, its a big task!

[Tessy]

I'm with you, Keith.
Truth is important, but our government bases its control of us on lies.
They have willing servants in the mass/mainstream media.
And our government is in turn, controlled by elitists who have a hidden agenda.

They seek to overturn centuries of progress toward civil rights, liberty and self-determination.


Only two centuries. One thing I think is VERY important and
very often over looked is that the idea of human inalienable
rights is a very very new concept! We had it from 1780 or so
until about 1900 (only 120 years) and pretty much only in the
United States has the idea ever played a major role in the rule
of law and the foundations of a government. From about 1900
the monarchists, collectivists, and other fascists have been very
active in trying to regain lost control and they have been VERY
successful at it so far.

Someone here in this thread said something to the affect that
"...we are not those countries [China, and etc.] now are we..."
But having lived there and many other countries I would maintain
that we are in fact much worse or the same as Red China and
Russia. The major difference to me is two fold.

In the USA we have a corporate media that tells the opposite
of the truth instead of just not reporting the truth as in China
and Moscow. We even have a name for it. We call it "spin"
which does not exist in China or Russia or certainly not to the
same degree. And its existence in those countries where it does
exist is a very new thing of only perhaps the past 10 or 20 years.

The other thing being that the people in general react to and deal with
the truth differently when faced with it. In China it is welcomed and
change is sought or at least quietly hoped for. In the USA the truth is
rejected out of hand by a great majority and those who bare the truth
message are ridiculed and often their livelihood attacked. In this way
oddly enough the USA is being destroyed (or the destruction is allowed)
by it's own people. A most curious muse for me to observe.

It seems that there really are two political parties in the USA these
days but neither one of them have representation in D.C. and both
of them have derogatory names: "The Cool-aid Drinkers" and "The
Conspiracy Nuts".

The Cool-Aid Drinkers have accepted fully and completely the rhetoric
of the Marx Collectivists and Monarchists. They are fooled by the fabian
tactics that have been propagated on the country since the early 1900's.
These people like all people, are good people but their inherent trust of
their fellow man has lead them to trust the vary monsters that will
eventually devour them and devour a good portion of mankind along
with. History very clearly shows us that this is a repeating cycle the
magnitude of which increases with every occurrence.

The Conspiracy Nuts do understand the principles that the USA was
founded on all too clearly but they lack focus and organization. It is
not surprising this lack of organization, since they haven't had true
leadership for about 100 years now and every time a true leader
has appeared he's not recognized at all or in time, to make any
meaningful contributions to the unity or direction of the group. As
true individualists (as opposed to collectivists) they recognize the
system that seeks to bind and control them but often not well enough
to define it or at least not well enough to stay focused on a useful
definition of it. Some of them are so disoriented by the creeping
shadow of inhuman control they feel approaching that they point
to the sky and call "martian" and "UFO" or even talk of green lizards
controlling the powerful leaders of our country and the world. They
additionally often misunderstand the subtlety and pervasiveness of
mind-control techniques - although this is better than not being able
to detect them at all or be mindful of them.

I'm enthused in the years following 2001 as The Conspiracy Nut party
is starting to come to terms with their focus issues and the Ron Paul
movement even shows some signs that there may be movement
toward rectifying their lack of organization. The Conspiracy Nut party
has won over many Cool-aid Drinker party members but the ones
that remain resist all party and self dynamics. They feel comfortable
and they feel represented as a party even though they are actually
lead as a flock of sheep is lead. It's as if the two groups are speaking
to one another in singular voices. The Conspiracy-Nut group is saying:
{Look, we had it and it's escaping us but we can get it back if we try
hard and sacrifice some. OMG, look what will become of us if we do
not.} and the Cool-aid Drinkers are replying: {No thanks, we have our
house, we have our car, our couch is too comfortable and our remote
is too much fun to play with, we're not moving!}

Regardless of how you see the various mind-sets and in spite of my
ability to digress, the ideals that brought individual freedom upon
the America continent and the systems that ensued as a result of
a handful of wise men who propounded them are today largely no
longer in practice. Where there remains any vestige we see hope
and therefrom opportunity and new growth occur. To our advantage
we as Americans have had the opportunity to see and be part if only
briefly, of something truly unique and wonderful. It has been the
envy of the world and brought us great admiration and respect. But
we must not assume that it is the norm or that it will survive without
constant nurture and careful protection. So much of it has been forfeit
and so little remains that it is now questionable whether it can be
recaptured or resumed in a meaningful way. In closing I'll leave you
all with something a pretty progressive cat had to say:

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it!"
- Thomas Paine

[Truth Detector]

What irony to see the person above speaking of "Cool-aid drinkers" while at the same time posting this nonsense:

Someone here in this thread said something to the affect that
"...we are not those countries [China, and etc.] now are we..."
But having lived there and many other countries I would maintain
that we are in fact much worse or the same as Red China and
Russia. The major difference to me is two fold. In the USA we
have a corporate media that tell the opposite of the truth instead
of just not reporting the truth as in China and Moscow. We even
have a name for it. We call it "spin" which does not exist in China
or Russia or certainly not to the same degree. And its existence in
those countries where it does exist is a very new thing of only
perhaps the past 10 or 20 years.

The notion that people in the former USSR or China are exposed to the "truth" is absurd in the extreme and exhibits someone who is patently uninformed about the REALITIES of communism.

Spin doesn't exist in the former USSR or China because they have PROPOGANDA and TOTALITARIAN control of their media. How profound that you don't comprehend that simple fact.

The other thing being that the people in general react to and deal with the truth differently when faced with it. In China it is welcomed and change is sought or at least quietly hoped for. In the USA the truth is rejected out of hand by a great majority and those who bare the truth message are ridiculed and often their livelihood attacked. In this way oddly enough the USA is being destroyed (or the destruction is allowed) by it's own people. A most curious muse for me to observe.

The notion that the Chinese welcome the truth and are exposed to it living in a totalitarian communist regime where they don't have the freedom to come and go as they please, where the media is State controlled, where you cannot choose where you wish to live or what kind of work you would like to do, is profound in its lack of credible facts and naive in the extreme.

I suggest that you do a little more studying about life in China, the standards of living, life in the former USSR and the reasons it eventually imploded, and life in the former Communist East Germany.

I was lucky enough to have been able to visit East Germany after the walls and the communists finally gave up their efforts to control all aspects of their society and economy. It was a basket case of filth, poverty and lacking even basic services like beauty salons, bakeries and butcher shops. When driving from West to East, you left a country side dotted with freshly painted churches and villages to dirt grime and disrepair.

Yep, China is a shining example to the world for the failure of Communism. Unfortunately, most of it's people don't know how miserable it is for them because their state run media keeps telling them how much better they have it than in the West.

You have to be living in a parallel universe to express such uninformed opinions about societies you obviously have no clue about.

[potter]

That was a really excellent post Tessy :thumbsup:

[Tessy]

The notion that people in the former USSR or China are exposed to the "truth" is absurd...

It's clear that you either didn't read what I said, you didn't understand what I
said, or you are using what I said as a platform from which to defend some
position - so I'll not reply further.

I would suggest however that caution be used when suggesting curriculum
for me to study. I have lived there for more than a few years each and
studied them from both the inside and the outside as it were.[hr]
That was a really excellent post Tessy :thumbsup:


Thanks Potter,

It was the original post by Keith that inspired it though.

[Truth Detector]

The notion that people in the former USSR or China are exposed to the "truth" is absurd...

It's clear that you either didn't read what I said, you didn't understand what I
said, or you are using what I said as a platform from which to defend some
position - so I'll not reply further.

I would suggest however that caution be used when suggesting curriculum
for me to study. I have lived there for more than a few years each and
studied them from both the inside and the outside as it were.[hr

Did you not type this?:

"I would maintain that we are in fact much worse or the same as Red China and Russia. The major difference to me is two fold. In the USA we have a corporate media that tell the opposite of the truth instead
of just not reporting the truth as in China and Moscow."

And did you not type this:

"In China it is welcomed and change is sought or at least quietly hoped for. In the USA the truth is rejected out of hand by a great majority and those who bare the truth message are ridiculed and often their livelihood attacked. In this way oddly enough the USA is being destroyed (or the destruction is allowed) by it's own people. A most curious muse for me to observe. "

I personally could care less where you "claim" you studied or lived, it is OBVIOUS that you were living in a parallel universe where your views have been colored by distortions, lies and denial.

The notion that the ANY regime run by Communists exposes it's people the the truth, or that it is somehow more open to change is absurd in the extreme and illustrates a patent disregard for the truth.

Here's a little reality test for you: Why is it that people are trying to get OUT of Communist Regimes and that so many from other nations are trying to get INTO the USA?

[Tessy]

I'll just pick one and you can continue on your own from there.

What does: "[the truth] is not reported [at all]" mean to you?
Does that actually imply to you somehow that they are getting
large doses of truth from their state?

And on second thought I'll address both - with another question
of course. :) If you take offense to: "In China it is welcomed
and change is sought or at least quietly hoped for." then you
must define for all of us the meaning of å…*å››è¿�动 (Tiananmen
Square) and the many other events like it that have taken place
since.

[hr][hr]Also I would like to ask yet another question of you Mr. Truth Detector
for I am at a quandary with the level of ignorance you maintain about
the political system you live within.

You say "The notion that [..] ANY regime run by Communists exposes it's
people [to][..] the truth..." is a falsehood.

And therefor I must challenge you to prove that the USA itself is not
currently being run by "communists". Please try. I think you are in
for quite an awakening!

Hmm, considering this you may be proven right. You are not exposed
directly to any truth at all. Kinda messes with your head doesn't it! This
additionally makes one of my previous points for me. That the US media
tells it's people THE OPPOSITE of the truth while China and Russia usually
just leave it blank. Hehehe, at least they know they are living under
collectivism. :p

[potter]

I'll just pick one and you can continue on your own from there.

What does: "[the truth] is not reported [at all]" mean to you?
Does that actually imply to you somehow that they are getting
large doses of truth from their state?

And on second thought I'll address both - with another question
of course. :) If you take offense to: "In China it is welcomed
and change is sought or at least quietly hoped for." then you
must define for all of us the meaning of å…*å››è¿�动 (Tiananmen
Square) and the many other events like it that have taken place
since.

[hr][hr]Also I would like to ask yet another question of you Mr. Truth Detector
for I am at a quandary with the level of ignorance you maintain about
the political system you live within.

You say "The notion that [..] ANY regime run by Communists exposes it's
people [to][..] the truth..." is a falsehood.

And therefor I must challenge you to prove that the USA itself is not
currently being run by "communists". Please try. I think you are in
for quite an awakening!

Hmm, considering this you may be proven right. You are not exposed
directly to any truth at all. Kinda messes with your head doesn't it! This
additionally makes one of my previous points for me. That the US media
tells it's people THE OPPOSITE of the truth while China and Russia usually
just leave it blank. Hehehe, at least they know they are living under
collectivism. :p


Kinda like boiling a frog alive eh?

[Tessy]

Baloop-bloop ribbit bloop-bloopty-slurp-bloop-oop <--Sound of frog boiling
while slurping cool-aid. :D

:embarrased: Negative rep point acquired :unreal:

[Truth Detector]

Baloop-bloop ribbit bloop-bloopty-slurp-bloop-oop <--Sound of frog boiling
while slurping cool-aid. :D

:embarrased: Negative rep point acquired :unreal:


Fascinating watching you whine about getting negative rep after giving ME a negative. Want some cheese with your whine?

I don't make it a point to ever give out negative reps because I see them as a weak attempt at retribution used by people who cannot defend their loony opinions in the forum.

I prefer to give positive reps when they are deserved and leave the negativity to people like you who derive some sort of warped pleasure to ding people whom you disagree with or who may have hurt your little feelings.

However, I will never hesitate to give a negative rep to someone who gives me one; it is illustrative of the absurdity of taking your emotions out on someone just because you disagree with them.

Carry on!

[Keith Hamburger]

Baloop-bloop ribbit bloop-bloopty-slurp-bloop-oop <--Sound of frog boiling
while slurping cool-aid. :D

:embarrased: Negative rep point acquired :unreal:


Yeah. You'll get more if you hang around. There are plenty of people around here that will give negative reps in retailiation for properly given rep. I have a thread on that, too.

Rep is really fairly meaningless, many will throw it around for not much reason at all.

As to "Truth Detector", he's one of those that give those of us with real concerns about our country a bad name. There are plenty that will do everything they can to paint the principles of the United States in a bad light but have nothing constructive to offer. And then when those of us that truly believe in the principles on which this country was founded, and complain about the departure from those principles and promote a return, we're lumped into that category of "America haters".

I really hate the idea of "Love it or leave it", and it's been used towards me many times, but I don't understand why our freedoms must be taken away to make us just like the rest of the world. Our country was founded on different principles by people who wanted to get away from those types of societies. Why do people want to implement gun control in this country when they could just go somewhere else that already has gun control? Why do people want to implement "universal health care" when there are plenty of countries that have that?

When someone who desires to return to the principles of freedom on which this country was founded is told "if you don't like it, leave", we have no choices of where to go, this is the only country that was founded on such beliefs. The people who wish to destroy those freedoms, however, have lots of choices.

Why can't they just leave us one free place in this world?

Keith

[Tessy]

I haven't really heard that term (America Hater) ever be thrown
around or applied in any credible way. I did in the months just
after 9-11 but I thought almost everyone stopped doing that as
the only time I've seen it since was when some news man was
totally bagging on Ron Paul. Even then I think the reception to
his rant by everyone who had heard the Ron Paul name even
once prior was either jaw drop disbelief or confusion. I think
the mid-rant quote went something like "this guy doesn't like
anything about America..."

As to why can't they... I think the answer can only be approached
logically from two angles. 1) Small minded Invader Zim like people
that are totally absorbed in the illusion that they are superior and
have by rights rulership of the entire world or 2) The religious idea
that they are the chosen direct servants of Lucifer "the true god,
bearer of light (http://www.occultopedia.com/l/lucifer.htm), and giver of eternal life" and need to follow some
ancient secret plan to capture Earth and enforce something akin to
the (deceptive) "rules" caved out in the Georgia Guide Stones (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3490568771316655904) in
order to be captains in Lucifer's promised afterlife.

And I couldn't be more serious! Some religion or another with these
basic tenants and ideas is practiced by the majority of individuals who's
names appear on lists made by us commoners with the column heading
of "Elites". That's part of the noise you hear about the Bohemian Grove (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=Bohemian+Grove&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
and the "Illuminati" - Right? Lucifer the "LIGHT" giver - Illuminati... (http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/Illumin8.htm)
and Skull & Bones (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml), all that crap.

And before someone says: "I don't believe in any of that stuff"... Doesn't
matter - they do. Many of them either admit it directly and are on record
doing so or can be linked to it irrefutably.

So next time you see someone calling Bush evil or portraying them as
Satan Spawn (LOL!!!!) just maybe the person or artist did a little home-
work to come up with that. If you google Alex Jones and bohemian grove
you can watch video of one of the rituals (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983) and get a list of all the power
men and presidents who attend. I watched it and thought it was kinda
like a high-school play or something - till you connect the other dots.
Heh! Aleister Crowley (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Aleister+Crowley&hl=en&sitesearch=)even fits into it somewhere... BeeeeeZAR!

Anyway, those are the only two whys I have been able to come up with.
I suppose it could be a combination of both. :p

[Osborn F. Enready]

Tessy, thank you for your wonderful post and well spoken perspective, much of which I agree with.

I look forward to seeing you more around the debates.

[Truth Detector]

[quote=Tessy]There are plenty of people around here that will give negative reps in retailiation for properly given rep. I have a thread on that, too.

Keith


Properly given negative rep? You have got to be kidding. What do you think the purpose of negative rep is? It is a retaliation and attempt to punish someone because you don't like their views.

Negative rep is a retaliation and pathetic substitute for those who cannot engage in honest debate.

The goal should be giving POSITIVE rep, not NEGATIVE.

I have to laugh when you suggest that negative rep is "properly" given; according to whom; YOU?

Meanwhile, Tessy attempts to describe repressive regimes with pathetic records on human rights, the environment and economics as being somehow, more honest?

We'll need more kool-aid for that one.

"That the US media tells it's people THE OPPOSITE of the truth while China and Russia usually just leave it blank."
:dizzy:

[Tessy]

To me a negative is given or gained in your case when one acts like an
ass calling others liars, or delusional when actually they read without
understanding the ideas. Whether or not you understood it makes no
difference to me. That kind of unadult rudeness doesn't belong on a site
the purpose of which is adult political discussion.

I'm not saying you are the only one who has done that either. Unfortunately
there are allot of people out there who's parents neglected teaching them
how to behave in public. And I'm not even hoping that you'll go away or
anything like that. I do hope that you'll learn how to conduct yourself tho.

I like debate and I like discussion but challenging another person's opinion
in a pointed way or getting personal about things you might not agree with
for whatever reasons is weak minded, selfish, and very unadult. My advice?
as soon as you use start to write a sentence that contains the words "you"
or "that is" in it check yourself. Ask yourself if you are attacking the person,
the person's opinion or are you trying to express yourself and your ideas?
If the former don't bother at all - it's not needed or useful in any way at all.
If the later then try to find a different way of writing it.

As far as why I think you reacted in this way well, you said it yourself in your
tag line: "Nothing frightens a Socialist more than the truth". I think it's a bit
difficult for people who have become socialists in practice during the course
of their lives while telling themselves the whole time that they believe in
individual freedom. Combined with living within a system that does exactly
the same thing and promotes that dichotomous deception it's difficult to look
at one's self and to admit the possibility of being so deceived for so long.

[Truth Detector]

To me a negative is given or gained in your case when one acts like an
ass calling others liars, or delusional when actually they read without
understanding the ideas. Whether or not you understood it makes no
difference to me. That kind of unadult rudeness doesn't belong on a site
the purpose of which is adult political discussion.

I'm not saying you are the only one who has done that either. Unfortunately
there are allot of people out there who's parents neglected teaching them
how to behave in public. And I'm not even hoping that you'll go away or
anything like that. I do hope that you'll learn how to conduct yourself tho.

I like debate and I like discussion but challenging another person's opinion
in a pointed way or getting personal about things you might not agree with
for whatever reasons is weak minded, selfish, and very unadult. My advice?
as soon as you use start to write a sentence that contains the words "you"
or "that is" in it check yourself. Ask yourself if you are attacking the person,
the person's opinion or are you trying to express yourself and your ideas?
If the former don't bother at all - it's not needed or useful in any way at all.
If the later then try to find a different way of writing it.

As far as why I think you reacted in this way well, you said it yourself in your
tag line: "Nothing frightens a Socialist more than the truth". I think it's a bit
difficult for people who have become socialists in practice during the course
of their lives while telling themselves the whole time that they believe in
individual freedom. Combined with living within a system that does exactly
the same thing and promotes that dichotomous deception it's difficult to look
at one's self and to admit the possibility of being so deceived for so long.


I would suggest you re-visit Post: #18 that initiated your desire to wander off the reservation suggesting what a rude ass I am and giving me negative rep and show me where I insulted you at a personal level.

If anything, your post insulted everyone’s intelligence, at least those of us with one, in suggesting that our politics and media are no better than those found in Communist countries.

Again, as I stated in post #18, it is ironic for you to be waxing illogical about “cool-aid� drinkers and “conspiracy nuts� when your comments are so illustrative of them.

Carry on. I look forward to more unwarranted personal insults of my character, nonsensical claims about how our nation is no different than Communist Dictatorships and how warranted negative reps are from cool-aid drinkers who instead of debating points, choose to condescend those who oppose them and call them school yard names.

You are as profound as the cool-aid drinkers you type about and, as such, I wear your criticisms as a badge of honor.

Your comments in private:

Negative: Jumps to conclusions. Is vengeful and will carry a grudge across topics and threads.

I suggest you read your own words to see what vengeful really means.

[Tessy]

Now to the point of human rights abuses and repressive regimes. Unbeknownst
to it's citizenry the USA has one of the worst records on the planet. If it weren't
for the corporate media in the USA spinning everything and telling the people
evils are good, wrong is right, and hiding the blatant offenses conducted by
the USA I'm quite sure it's people would revolt or die of shame.

Point for point incident for incident it's MUCH worse than Red China and except
for the Bolshevik revolution is on par or worse than Russia! Anyone around the
world not subjected to US News knows this to be true beyond any doubt at all.

The difference between Russia / China and the USA is that where the reds
suppress the reporting of their war crimes and civil rights violations all together
the USA convinces it's people that they weren't in fact violations or crimes and
that they are justified and good. When someone in the USA points out that it
is indeed a war crime they aren't jailed like the reds do

EDIT:
rethinking it now actually they are both jailed and murdered on many occasions!
Sorry, I was reverting.

instead they are
labeled a conspiracy nut and not to be taken seriously - and this is done by
brainwashed people within the US society itself making the denial and spin of
the truth much worse! This means that the citizenry itself has taking on the
responsibilities of the lies and truth suppressions. At least in Russia and China
when you tell the people of some crime carried out by the state they say "we
know but we cannot talk about it". In the USA they say "No!!! That's not true!
You are a crazy conspiracy nut!! Get out of my face!" or they say "Yeah but
they had it coming! They deserved it! We did the right thing!". So in a very big
way the US people themselves are to blame - at least for the cover-up. On the
other hand the USA People are lied to in their text books and by their media
about almost everything. They were in the Orwellian 1984 loooong before
1984 when it comes to double-think, double-speak, the rewriting of history,
and the psychological propaganda machine that enslaved their minds. They
may have joined the self-inflicted terror part of the Orwellian reality in the
year 2001 as well but that remains to be proven. They certainly had things
like the gulf of Tonkin, the U.S.S. Liberty, and etc. already before 1984
although those were not on US soil geographically speaking.

Anyone saying to themselves right now "this guy is crazy - he's obviously
a conspiracy nut" who is also interested in the integrity of truth as an ideal,
do yourself a favor and stop right now. Go to one of these places that is so
"conspiratorial" by corporate media standards and start reading a few of the
articles. When you have doubts about something specific use your search
engine to gather at least 3 other sources hopefully from the government
itself or from a committee, society, a credible whistle blower, etc.. If you
don't know of any "conspiracy nut" sites start with Alex Jones or go random
by typing in keywords that would fit such people "CIA official", "Conspiracy",
etc.

If you're not satisfied with on-line references use the freedom of information
act to acquire the documents you're looking for. Start with something older.
Usually the older it is the more declassified documents there are and the
more readily the USA will admit to the atrocity in question. Start with
someone like Major Doug Rokke who is coming forward not to point fingers
but to find solutions and get help and therefore less likely to be untrustworthy.

I have done all this. Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of declassified docs
on hundreds of topics, actually thousands of hours of on-line research and
telephone calls. I strongly recommend that people stop forming opinion on
a hunch, on a gut feeling, or on the US corporate media propaganda and
actually DO the research - or trust someone who actually has.


[hr][hr][hr][hr]


I would suggest you re-visit Post: #18 that initiated your desire to wander off the reservation suggesting what a rude ass I am and giving me negative rep and show me where I insulted you at a personal level.

OK, here is where the negative rep came from, not post 18.


I personally could care less where you "claim" you studied or lived,


You just directly implied I am a liar!

it is OBVIOUS that you were living in a parallel universe where your views have been colored by distortions, lies and denial.

You just directly implied I am insane and delusional.

The notion that the ANY regime run by Communists exposes it's people the the truth, or that it is somehow more open to change is absurd in the extreme and illustrates a patent disregard for the truth.

Here again you attack me on a personal level and additionally attack my
opinion. Heck, you didn't even offer any counter opinion of your own.
All you did was attack me. How is that debate? How is that useful?

Here's a little reality test for you: Why is it that people are trying to get OUT of Communist Regimes and that so many from other nations are trying to get INTO the USA?

At least this is an attempt at an opinion. The fact that it is a TOTAL straw man
and the fact that it again is derogatory kinda kills it off tho. Need I go on?[hr]

You are as profound as the cool-aid drinkers you type about and, as such, I wear your criticisms as a badge of honor.


And you're still at it. You attack me because you don't like my opinion. That's
weak, not useful, and unadult. Why not counter-point if you disagree like an
adult? Leave me out of it - tell us your ideas on the topic.


[hr][hr][hr][hr]
I would like to hear your rebuttal or anyone's. Here's what I said:

Only two centuries. One thing I think is VERY important and
very often over looked is that the idea of human inalienable
rights is a very very new concept! We had it from 1780 or so
until about 1900 (only 120 years) and pretty much only in the
United States has the idea ever played a major role in the rule
of law and the foundations of a government. From about 1900
the monarchists, collectivists, and other fascists have been very
active in trying to regain lost control and they have been VERY
successful at it so far.

Someone here in this thread said something to the affect that
"...we are not those countries [China, and etc.] now are we..."
But having lived there and many other countries I would maintain
that we are in fact much worse or the same as Red China and
Russia. The major difference to me is two fold.

In the USA we have a corporate media that tells the opposite
of the truth instead of just not reporting the truth as in China
and Moscow. We even have a name for it. We call it "spin"
which does not exist in China or Russia or certainly not to the
same degree. And its existence in those countries where it does
exist is a very new thing of only perhaps the past 10 or 20 years.

The other thing being that the people in general react to and deal with
the truth differently when faced with it. In China it is welcomed and
change is sought or at least quietly hoped for. In the USA the truth is
rejected out of hand by a great majority and those who bare the truth
message are ridiculed and often their livelihood attacked. In this way
oddly enough the USA is being destroyed (or the destruction is allowed)
by it's own people. A most curious muse for me to observe.

It seems that there really are two political parties in the USA these
days but neither one of them have representation in D.C. and both
of them have derogatory names: "The Cool-aid Drinkers" and "The
Conspiracy Nuts".

The Cool-Aid Drinkers have accepted fully and completely the rhetoric
of the Marx Collectivists and Monarchists. They are fooled by the fabian
tactics that have been propagated on the country since the early 1900's.
These people like all people, are good people but their inherent trust of
their fellow man has lead them to trust the vary monsters that will
eventually devour them and devour a good portion of mankind along
with. History very clearly shows us that this is a repeating cycle the
magnitude of which increases with every occurrence.

The Conspiracy Nuts do understand the principles that the USA was
founded on all too clearly but they lack focus and organization. It is
not surprising this lack of organization, since they haven't had true
leadership for about 100 years now and every time a true leader
has appeared he's not recognized at all or in time, to make any
meaningful contributions to the unity or direction of the group. As
true individualists (as opposed to collectivists) they recognize the
system that seeks to bind and control them but often not well enough
to define it or at least not well enough to stay focused on a useful
definition of it. Some of them are so disoriented by the creeping
shadow of inhuman control they feel approaching that they point
to the sky and call "martian" and "UFO" or even talk of green lizards
controlling the powerful leaders of our country and the world. They
additionally often misunderstand the subtlety and pervasiveness of
mind-control techniques - although this is better than not being able
to detect them at all or be mindful of them.

I'm enthused in the years following 2001 as The Conspiracy Nut party
is starting to come to terms with their focus issues and the Ron Paul
movement even shows some signs that there may be movement
toward rectifying their lack of organization. The Conspiracy Nut party
has won over many Cool-aid Drinker party members but the ones
that remain resist all party and self dynamics. They feel comfortable
and they feel represented as a party even though they are actually
lead as a flock of sheep is lead. It's as if the two groups are speaking
to one another in singular voices. The Conspiracy-Nut group is saying:
{Look, we had it and it's escaping us but we can get it back if we try
hard and sacrifice some. OMG, look what will become of us if we do
not.} and the Cool-aid Drinkers are replying: {No thanks, we have our
house, we have our car, our couch is too comfortable and our remote
is too much fun to play with, we're not moving!}

Regardless of how you see the various mind-sets and in spite of my
ability to digress, the ideals that brought individual freedom upon
the America continent and the systems that ensued as a result of
a handful of wise men who propounded them are today largely no
longer in practice. Where there remains any vestige we see hope
and therefrom opportunity and new growth occur. To our advantage
we as Americans have had the opportunity to see and be part if only
briefly, of something truly unique and wonderful. It has been the
envy of the world and brought us great admiration and respect. But
we must not assume that it is the norm or that it will survive without
constant nurture and careful protection. So much of it has been forfeit
and so little remains that it is now questionable whether it can be
recaptured or resumed in a meaningful way. In closing I'll leave you
all with something a pretty progressive cat had to say:

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men,
undergo the fatigue of supporting it!"
- Thomas Paine

[Truth Detector]

Now to the point of human rights abuses and repressive regimes. Unbeknownst
to it's citizenry the USA has one of the worst records on the planet. If it weren't
for the corporate media in the USA spinning everything and telling the people
evils are good, wrong is right, and hiding the blatant offenses conducted by
the USA I'm quite sure it's people would revolt or die of shame.

Point for point incident for incident it's MUCH worse than Red China and except
for the Bolshevik revolution is on par or worse than Russia! Anyone around the
world not subjected to US News knows this to be true beyond any doubt at all.

The difference between Russia / China and the USA is that where the reds
suppress the reporting of their war crimes and civil rights violations all together
the USA convinces it's people that they weren't in fact violations or crimes and
that they are justified and good. When someone in the USA points out that it
is indeed a war crime they aren't jailed like the reds do

EDIT:
rethinking it now actually they are both jailed and murdered on many occasions!
Sorry, I was reverting.


How absurd, and you want to be taken seriously? Your comment without any backup to support it:

"the USA has one of the worst records on the planet."

Do me a favor and show me how it is the "worst" record with credible sources.

Here's a few to contrast your absurd statement that it is worse than China's or Russia's:

"PRC authorities acknowledge that there are some 1.2 million prisoners and detainees in China. "
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html

The executions under Stalin's rule - such as during the Great Terror of 1936-1938 - added up to several million by most counts. Comparable numbers of executions (adjusting for national population) are typical of Communist states.

Needless to say, mass murder was not the only human rights violation found in Communist regimes. As indicated, widespread use of slave labor has been common. The freedom to migrate - even within national borders - has frequently been severely restricted. Freedom of speech, conscience, and religion have been ruthlessly suppressed - although occasional "thaws" during e.g. part of Khrushchev's reign permitted writers such as Solzhenitsyn to expose some of the most egregious of their government's prior human rights violations. Communist regimes rejected on principle the economic freedom to own property, engage in business, or choose one's occupation, although sometimes these have been permitted on pragmatic grounds.

Lenin often ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence, sometimes ordering the confiscation of their seed grain as a further sanction.

Low estimates on the deaths from this famine are about 3 million; high estimates go up to 10 million - which would probably have been much higher if not for foreign relief efforts which Lenin had the good sense to permit.

Under Lenin's rule - unlike that of his successors - executions played a far more important role than deaths in forced labor camps. The exact number murdered is usually estimated at between 100,000 and 500,000

So many millions perished within the Gulag Archipelago for so many reasons, or for no reason. With a minimum of 5,000,000 slave laborers from 1931 to 1950, and a minimum death toll of 10% per year - both improbably low figures - one can conclude that Stalin's camps claimed a minimum of 10,000,000 victims, and easily two or three times as many.

This mixture of ruthless methods resulted in the starvation deaths of about 7 million people: 5 million in the Ukraine, 1 million in the North Caucasus region, and 1 million elsewhere. On top of this, a similar collectivization campaign carried out against the nomads of Kazahkstan led to 1 million further deaths.

The famine in 1933 was the worst under Stalin's rule, but not the last.

Mao, like Stalin, indisputably murdered more people than Hitler.....Mao was both the Lenin and the Stalin of Chinese Communism: not only did he found the system, but he raised it to lethal maturity.

the typical slave labor camp population during Mao's reign was between 10 and 15 million. The conditions were deadly, but markedly safer than those experienced by Stalin's Siberian slaves.

The Great Leap Forward turned this river of deaths into a flood, producing what was probably the single greatest famine in human history. From 1959-1963, around 30 million Chinese perished from this man- made famine.

About one million Party members and intellectuals were killed during Mao's Cultural Revolution - many by execution, others in the camps.

Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989 than have heard of the millions slaughtered by Mao. An estimated 2-3,000 - and possibly as many as 12,000 - protesters may have been killed in 1989 on the orders of Deng Xioaping

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/comfaq.htm#part3

I don't have the time to list all the satellite regimes like Korea and Vietnam and Cambodia that were supported by China and Russia and the millions who died under them.

The notion that anyone would attempt to suggest that the Human Rights violations of the USA surpasses those of communist regimes is absurd in the extreme. Yet you feel insulted when I pronounce the obvious.....how profound of you.

To this day, China, Korea, Vietnam and Cuba still prevent their people from access to other countries, suppress its population and control the media. Do you have any idea why that is? Why is it these regimes have to lock their citizens in, yet we have open borders? You can leave any time you like, which is more than I can say for the pathetic souls who have no choice in Communist countries.

Yep Tessy, I am certainly to be considered an ass for stating the obvious.

Carry on Comrade. :dizzy:

[Osborn F. Enready]

Considering the level of "debate" you bring Truth Detector, I will simply state that I not only agree with Tessy and Keith, but also feel you aren't matching their level of factual and contextual presentation, which leaves your side of the "debate" utterly lacking.

Great posts Tessy and Keith.

[Truth Detector]

Considering the level of "debate" you bring Truth Detector, I will simply state that I not only agree with Tessy and Keith, but also feel you aren't matching their level of factual and contextual presentation, which leaves your side of the "debate" utterly lacking.

Great posts Tessy and Keith.


Any time you want to challenge any facts I present as anything less than factual, you are more than welcome. Suffice it to say I won’t be holding my breath to see ANYTHING substantive from you.

Your far better at meaningless empty personal criticisms than dealing with anything of substance, at least on the threads I have seen you post on.

Carry on!

[Osborn F. Enready]

Great to see we share the same opinion of one another "Truth" Detector.... ;)

[Tessy]

Great to see we share the same opinion of one another "Truth" Detector.... ;)


http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=11513&pid=149124#pid149124[hr]
I'm still working on a reply so bare with me... This is about
the first 30% but it will give you something to do instead of
crying and calling other people names.

================================================== =
Truth Detector Wrote:
Do me a favor and show me how it is the "worst" record with credible sources.

Oh, this is going to be easy!

Here's a few to contrast your absurd statement that it is worse than China's or Russia's:

There you go with the personal slights again.


"PRC authorities acknowledge that there are some 1.2 million prisoners and detainees in China. "
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html

On 1/1/2006 there were 7.2 million in the Federal, State, and local adult
correctional population. Slightly over 91.2% are in for non-violent crimes.
56% are in for drug related charges and our own government is the #1
importer and distributor of illegal street drugs. Only about 18% of that
7.2 million are convicted unconstitutionally if you don't consider the
constitution provides the federal government with the right to criminalize
drugs which it does NOT! So if you are honest 74% of those people are
wrongly in the adult correctional system! That's 5,238,000 people!

Source: Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, and Harrison, Paige M.,
Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prisoners in 2006 (Washington, DC: US Department
of Justice, December 2007), NCJ219416

I believe the correctional population has increased since by about 20% but feel
free to check!


The executions under Stalin's rule - such as during the Great Terror of 1936-1938 - added up to several million by most counts. Comparable numbers of executions (adjusting for national population) are typical of Communist states.

Only several million? From 1763 to 1890 we killed 26 million (high estimate)
14 million (lowest estimate) in an ethnic cleansing program and did so mostly
with bio-weapons - both are war crimes! As recent as 1983 we were still
carrying out sterilization (eugenics) against native americans. The number of
total kills is estimated at well over 100 million by several accounts if you start
counting from the day Columbus landed and stop just shy or 1900. That number
includes the massacres carried out by our Army with gatling gun and rifle squad
against babies, women, children, and unarmed men. The 100 million number
also includes the genocide (again by germ warfare) of an estimated 600,000 to
800,000 Hawaiians.

Sources:
"Before the Horror", "The Puritan Way of Death", "Shrinking History",
Oxford University Press,
University of California anthropology professor Patrick Kirch,
UH anthropologist Terry Hunt,
UH Social Science Research Institute,
UH American Studies professor David Stannard,
Professor Ann Ramenofsky of LSU,
(The Oxford Companion to American Military History (Oxford University Press,
1999)),
Cappel, Constance, The Smallpox Genocide of the Odawa Tribe at L'Arbre Croche,
1763: The History of a Native American People, Edwin Mellen Press, 2007, ISBN -
10: 0-7734-5220-6, ISBN 13: 978-0-7734-5220-6.
Cook, Noble David. Born to Die: Disease and New World Conquest, 1492–1650.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998. ISBN 0-521-62208-5, ISBN 0-521-
62730-3.
Hanson, Victor Davis. Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of
Western Power. New York: Doubleday, 2001. ISBN 0-385-50052-1.
Henige, David. Numbers from Nowhere: The American Indian Contact Population
Debate. Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1998. ISBN 0-8061-3044-X.
Jennings, Francis. The Founders of America: How Indians discovered the land,
pioneered in it, and created great classical civilizations, how they were plunged
into a Dark Age by invasion and conquest, and how they are reviving. New York:
Norton, 1993. ISBN 0-393-03373-2.
Mann, Charles Kellogg 1491 : New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus
New York: Knopf, 2005. ISBN 1-4000-4006-X
Royal, Robert. 1492 and All That: Political Manipulations of History. Washington,
D.C.: Ethics and Public Policy Center, 1992.
Stannard, David E. American Holocaust: The Conquest of the New World. Oxford
University Press, 1993. ISBN 0-19-508557-4
Stearn, E. Wagner and Allen E. Stearn. The Effect of Smallpox on the Destiny of
the Amerindian. Boston: Humphries, 1945.
Thornton, Russell. American Indian Holocaust and Survival: A Population History
Since 1492. University of Oklahoma Press, 1987. ISBN 0-8061-2074-6.




Needless to say, mass murder was not the only human rights violation found in Communist regimes. As indicated, widespread use of slave labor has been common.

Indeed! In 1807 Britain outlawed slavery WITHOUT A WAR!. In 1848 France
abolishes slavery WITHOUT A WAR. In 1851 the population of the USA is
20,067,720 free persons and 2,077,034 slaves (10% !!). In 1865 the Union
defeated the Confederates in a bloody war and slavery is abolished in the
USA. The number of Africans deported to the Americas by the Europeans
was about 10-15 million (about 30-40 million died before reaching the
Americas). That means two died for every one that was at least able to
set foot on shore in the USA. About 25% of U.S. citizens who lived in
states where slavery was allowed owned slaves.

African Slave Trade By Century (America)
1500-1600: 328,000 (2.9%)
1601-1700: 1,348,000 (12.0%)
1701-1800: 6,090,000 (54.2%)
1801-1900: 3,466,000 (30.9%)
Source: "Transformations in Slavery", Paul Lovejoy, 2000.
Census archive at the University of Virginia.
But you can turn to any brother in you neighborhood and they should be able
to tell you if pressed to. Heck, some may shout it out to you as you walk by
without any solicitation at all! ;)

BTW, Slavery is still very alive in the USA today. There are about (unfinished)

The freedom to migrate - even within national borders - has frequently been
severely restricted. Freedom of speech, conscience, and religion have been
ruthlessly suppressed - although occasional "thaws" during e.g. part of
Khrushchev's reign permitted writers such as Solzhenitsyn to expose some of the
most egregious of their government's prior human rights violations. Communist
regimes rejected on principle the economic freedom to own property, engage in
business, or choose one's occupation, although sometimes these have been
permitted on pragmatic grounds.

The great depression is now known to have been an engineered operation by
federal government under control and influence of the International Bankers
executed for the sole purpose of the redistribution of wealth, monopolization
of the banking system, the introduction of socialist marxist ideals and the
precursor to a second world war that was planned to conquer the world.
Hitler was created idealistically and financially by interests in America and
the UK.

When Hitler turned west instead of east as originally agreed to we thumped
him. Had he not made that critical error the world would already be ruled
by the interests that were in the USA at that time. In a very big sense the
WWII holocaust was planned and executed by american interests with american
money through american corporations. There are hundreds or thousands of
references and studies that show Union oil gave free fuel for the Nazis, IBM
planned and managed the data management and logistics (movement) of the
actual holocaust victims, and etc. etc.. Of just the companies and interests we
have caught red handed (meaning documented evidence existed at one time or
still exists which shows clear involvement in a very direct and sinister way) the
list includes:

Eastman Kodak Company (USA)
Ford Motor Company (USA)
IBM (International Business Machines) (USA)
J. P. Morgan Chase & Company (USA) (Bank)
Eastman Kodak Company (USA)
Exxon Mobil Corporation (USA)
General Motors Corporation (USA)
American Express (USA)
Bank of the City of New York (Bank of New York) (USA)
Chase Manhattan (J.P. Morgan Chase & Company) (USA)
Guaranty Trust Co. of New York (acquired by J.P. Morgan & Co.) (J.P. Morgan Chase & Company) (USA)
Bank of New York Company, Inc. (USA)
American International Group (USA)
IG Farben (Aventis, BASF Aktiengesellschaft, and Bayer AG) (Germany) Mentioned
because I believe it was part of the Operation PaperClip acquisition. These were
the worst corporations of all! And the officials and scientists went from German
concentration camp famed horror directly into key positions in the US federal
government including in the dept. of education, social services, JPL/NASA and etc.
Barclays PLC (UK)
Lloyds TSB Group PLC (UK)
J.P. Morgan et Cie (France)
Rothschild Frères (France)
General Motors Corporation (USA)

3/4 of these US companies also are among a growing number of American
multinationals that say they have found evidence that their subsidiaries
abroad used forced labor during those years.


Sources:
The American Jewish Committee
New York Times
Institute for Historical Review
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
Mark Fritz - Los Angeles Times
U.S. National Archives & Records Administration
Corporate Watch UK
Harvard Business School - Business History Review
BBC News | Business | Bertelsmann admits Nazi past
BBC News | Business | IG Farben to be dissolved
BBC News | Europe | Nazi slave cash dismissed as 'gesture'
BBC News | Europe | Fund for Nazi slave labourers
BBC News | Europe | German Bayer company Nazi lawsuit
Nazi Chemical Giant | Business & Economics | Deutsche Welle
Company profile - Bayer AG
Banks and Jewish Souls - Gregg J. Rickman, ISBN: 1560004266
From Cooperation to Complicity: the Third Reich - Peter Hayes, Cambridge
University Press, ISBN: 0521782279
Daimler-Benz in the Third Reich - Neil Gregor - 1998, Yale University Press
ISBN: 0300072430
The Nazi Dictatorship and the Deutsche Bank - Harold James - 2004, Cambridge
University Press, ISBN: 0521838746
The Deutsche Bank and the Nazi Economic War Against the Jews: The
Expropriation of Jewish-Owned Property - Harold James - 2001, Cambridge
University Press, ISBN: 0521803292
TRADING WITH THE ENEMY: Holocaust Restitution, The United States Government,
and American Industry by Michael Bazyler & Amber Fitzgerald, June 24, 2003
Henry Ford And The Jews: The Mass Production of Hate - Neil Baldwin - 2002,
Perseus Books Group, ISBN: 1586481630
Who Financed Hitler: The Secret Funding of Hitler's Rise to Power, 1919-1933
- James E. Pool - 1997, Pocket, ISBN: 0671760831 - Dial Press ISBN: 0803790392
The American Axis: Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, and the Rise of the Third
Reich - Max Wallace - 2004, St. Martin's Press, ISBN: 0312335318
The Transfer Agreement: The Dramatic Story of the Pact Between the Third Reich
and Jewish Palestine - Edwin Black - 2001, Carrol & Graf, ISBN: 0786708417
Eternal Treblinka: Our Treatment of Animals and the Holocaust ["Henry Ford:
From Slaughterhouse to Death Camp"]- Charles Patterson - 2002, Rudolph Steiner
Press, ISBN: 1930051999
Flivver King: A Story of Ford-America - Upton Sinclair - 1984, Charles H. Kerr
Pub. Co., ISBN: 0882860542
General Motors and the Nazis - Henry Ashby Turner Jr. ISBN: 0300106343
Chicago Tribune, April 30, 2000
Michael Dobbs - Washington Post Staff Writer
IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance Between Nazi Germany and
America's Most Powerful Corporation - Edwin Black - 2002, Random House, Inc.,
ISBN: 0609808990
BBC News | Europe | Swiss bank exploited Nazi slaves
The Avalon Project at Yale Law School (online) Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Vol.6
THE FORTY-FOURTH DAY Monday, 28 January 1946 - Hollerith (IBM)
"Counted for Persecution; IBM's Role in the Holocaust" - Merry Madway Eisenstadt
IBM 'dealt directly with Holocaust organisers' - Oliver Burkeman, New York,
Friday March 29, 2002, The Guardian
BBC News | Americas | German firms face slave labour case
BBC News | UK | Holocaust victims win battle for lost property
The Secret (Insurance) Agent Men - Mark Fritz - Los Angeles Times, September
22, 2000
American Academy of Actuaries
The Association of Jewish Refugees
BBC News | Europe | Swiss come clean on Nazi dealings
Sir Henri Deterding and Royal Dutch-Shell: Changing Control of World Oil,
1900-1940 - Paul Hendrix - 2002, Bristol Academic Press, ISBN: 0951376284
The Arms of Krupp: The Rise and Fall of the Industrial Dynasty that Armed
Germany at War - William Manchester - 2003, Little Brown & Co., ISBN:
0316529400
The House of Krupp: The Steel Dynasty That Armed the Nazis - Peter Batty
2002, National Book Network, ISBN: 0815411553
FBI - Freedom of Information Act - Henry Ford
Holocaust Issues - Department of State - United States of America
U.S. National Archives - Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act
U.S. National Archives & Records Administration - Holocaust-Era Assets Records,
Research, and Restitution
http://www.candlesholocaustmuseum.org/index.php?sid=1
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/library/website/hiatt/
http://www.magenta.nl/crosspoint/shoah.html
http://www.doew.at/
http://www.elpasoholocaustmuseum.org/
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/
http://www2.bc.cc.ca.us/gdumler/Eng%201A/Web%20Resources%20for%201A/links_pertaining_to_genocide_etc.htm
http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/holocaust.html
http://www.holocaustcenterbn.org/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://pw1.netcom.com/~jdmeyer/shoah.htm
There are over 100 more I have here in front of me (well, actually in my
garage!) that confirm and reconfirm my assertions!


Lenin often ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own
subsistence, sometimes ordering the confiscation of their seed grain as a further
sanction.
Low estimates on the deaths from this famine are about 3 million; high estimates
go up to 10 million - which would probably have been much higher if not for
foreign relief efforts which Lenin had the good sense to permit.

Ummm, not really applicable. They weren’t planning on those people to die like
parts of the US federal government and the international banking interest had
indeed planned world wide misery. But yes between 2.5 and 4 million Ukrainian
farm workers died in that. I know of no credible estimates over about 4 million.
And unlike you I have studied this stuff instead of just pasting a file and saying
prove it. And I know you haven’t studied it for two reasons. One, your attitude
is that of someone who has never studied anything seriously and you seem to
have been shocked to find out the USA is “thee� axis of evil as any scholar can
at least see if not outright agree with.

Interestingly enough Only Soviet Russia, which had almost isolated itself
from the rest of the world, escaped the effects of the Depression. That
Isolationism bit them in the butt a few years later though - and is what
you’re talking about here.

In America the “Great Depression� took it’s share of lives too and estimates
are on par with the Ukrainian famine. The infant mortality rose from about
25 in a thousand to over 120 according to the National Bureau of Economic
Research. 16 million people became unemployed (about 1/3 of the workforce
at the time) and the GDP dropped close to 50%.

And the USA is still at it. But again the USA is worse! The federal government
forced just about all small private farms out of business (http://web.missouri.edu/~ikerdj/papers/SFT3-perceptions.htm). And additionally have
maimed the people and the REAL biodiversity by federally regulating (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=illegal+seed+USA&btnG=Search) and allowing
the patenting (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11796) of seed, requiring and allowing absurd chemical additives, for farm
animals (http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_environment/antibiotics_and_food/) and grow crops alike.

Worse than this but seemingly related is the fact that the USA has
been actively and knowingly poisoning it's citizen's water supply
with a Nazi/US developed drug that was also used on German citizens!

It's called fluoride and I'll get you the links to this in the nest 30%
post I make. Fluoride lowers a person's native IQ by an average
of 20 IQ points, promotes lethargy, and in several ways damages
the human skeletal system and structure.

Back to the seed, farm, and animal (food) issue:
http://www.DrGreene.com/21_868.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article683176.ece
http://www.babyreference.com/EarlyPuberty.htm
http://www.biolreprod.org/cgi/reprint/52/5/1144.pdf

This has additionally been used as a tool of war against African nations (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2465/is_6_30/ai_65653645) who do
not bow down to the African Union - yeah, there's one in Africa too! Same people!
And the force and affect is not limited to Africa either. Meanwhile
there are some very confusing actions being taken (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7529) by the likes
of Bill Gates, the Rockefeller family, and other "elites". Will GMO
be used as poison on humans to the same affect that it is currently
having on the bee population? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=GMO+Bee+population&btnG=Search)

Regardless of the somewhat speculative nature of todays seed and farm crisis
almost all scientists will agree that today we are encountering new and
bizarre problems never before encountered. Almost all of it can be dated
in accordance with the communistic (marxist) and corporate fascist programs
implemented in the past several decades in the USA by the federal government.

So far except for Nazi crimes we’ve only focused on the nation’s self inflictions
but the real crimes against humanity belonging to the USA and it’s puppet masters
in the UK take place on foreign soil in Africa, South America, Middle East, and
others.

In South America alone we have attempted the often bloody overthrow of over 50
sovereign nations. Over 40 of them democracies with elected officials. And that’s
just in the past 60 years. In the process over 30 countries have been attacked
and bombed causing the loss of far more lives than those claimed in the gulag.

Argentina
Belize
Bolivia
Brazil
Chile
Colombia
Cuba
Ecuador
El Salvador
French Guiana
Granada
Guatemala
Honduras
Nicaragua
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Surinam
Uruguay
Venezuela

All directly attacked by the USA and/or CIA infiltrated, overthrown, with School
Of The Americas death squad supported dictators loyal to Washington set in place.
And those are only the countries south of our own boarder where bruit force was
the tool used for the death and detrimental control over resource. This is why
people cheered so loudly when Dr. Paul set one of his goals as the dismantling
of those parts of the CIA which preform secretly covert operations that are
supposedly in the “national interest� - what total crap!

-- UNFINISHED --
-- MORE TO COME --

[Truth Detector]

"Worse than this but seemingly related is the fact that the USA has
been actively and knowingly poisoning it's citizen's water supply
with a Nazi/US developed drug that was also used on German citizens!

It's called fluoride and I'll get you the links to this in the nest 30%
post I make. Fluoride lowers a person's native IQ by an average
of 20 IQ points, promotes lethargy, and in several ways damages
the human skeletal system and structure."

It's obvious from the blather above that you have had too much fluoride with that cool-aid you are drinking.

I find it interesting that when a ranting liberal tries to obscure the truth, they just fill the blog with bulschit.

I can't argue with someone that has wandered so far off the planet that they can't make any coherent sense anymore.

I concede; you're right Tess, Communism is good, Americans are bad. How can I argue with such lunatic nonsense? I look forward to seeing you move to China where life is superior to that here. I can’t imagine how you can live in a nation that has such an awful record of human rights?

:dizzy:

[Tessy]

You can't really say that.. America IS communism!!! That's the point!

[Truth Detector]

You can't really say that.. America IS communism!!! That's the point!


Yes Tessy, whatever you say.
:peace:

[Tessy]

"Worse than this but seemingly related is the fact that the USA has
been actively and knowingly poisoning it's citizen's water supply
with a Nazi/US developed drug that was also used on German citizens!

It's called fluoride and I'll get you the links to this in the nest 30%
post I make. Fluoride lowers a person's native IQ by an average
of 20 IQ points, promotes lethargy, and in several ways damages
the human skeletal system and structure."

It's obvious from the blather above that you have had too much fluoride with that cool-aid you are drinking.

I find it interesting that when a ranting liberal tries to obscure the truth, they just fill the blog with bulschit.

I can't argue with someone that has wandered so far off the planet that they can't make any coherent sense anymore.

I concede; you're right Tess, Communism is good, Americans are bad. How can I argue with such lunatic nonsense? I look forward to seeing you move to China where life is superior to that here. I can’t imagine how you can live in a nation that has such an awful record of human rights?

:dizzy:


[hr][hr]
http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm
http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride/
http://www.fluorideresearch.org/
http://www.fluoridealert.org/

http://englandsfreedome.blogspot.com/2008/02/fluoride-in-nazi-germany.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071215235738AALUTq6
http://www.preferrednetwork.com/FLUORIDE_STUPIDITY.htm
http://www.greaterthings.com/Lexicon/F/Fluoride.htm
http://www.rense.com/general3/fluo.htm
http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800000240&messageID=800007763
http://www.gjne.com/fluoride/fluoride%20apathy.htm

You're batting a thousand Truth Defecator - keep it going...

[Keith Hamburger]

Wow. This discussion has gone way off topic. I do have to say that Tessy is discussing serious issues but I'm not sure how well they are related to the OP.

I have to say that Truth Detector has mostly provided ad hominems and straw men to the posts of actual, documented, facts provided by others.

But, what else is new.

Keith

[Tessy]

Yeah, sorry about the off topic. These topics and the new positions
most of us have to line up as a result of the radically changing
climate we live in are so complex it's often hard for me to
determine where one topic ends and another begins.

I'll stop. :)

The other 60% may show up some time in the future as a new thread.

[Truth Detector]

I have to say that Truth Detector has mostly provided ad hominems and straw men to the posts of actual, documented, facts provided by others.

But, what else is new.

Keith


...because you say so.

You just can't help yourself can you Keith? I see that you also like to misuse adjectives because it is apparent you are clueless what ad hominem means:

Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

Based on the definition, that appears to be your preferred method rather than adding anything substantive to a debate; Carry on! :dizzy:[hr]


I have been accused of "showing my agenda" in my posts, which implies that I have been trying to hide something. In actuality, my "agenda" is completely open and I have nothing to hide in that regard.

To ensure that everyone is aware of such, I will her lay out my "agenda" and open it up for discussion.

I believe that force, violence and fraud, or the threat thereof, has no valid place in human relationships. I believe that the use of such is deserving of a response which may serve to ensure that those that feel they are justified in using force, violence or fraud to accomplish their personal or social goals will be disinclined to continue such behavior.

I believe that the more concentrated the entities that employ such tactics are, the more dangerous they are. Governments are completely based on the use of force, violence and fraud through regulation and taxation. Those that delegate the use of force, violence and fraud to their representative governments through advocacy for an increase in the amount used against those who have not initiated such are as guilty as the agents they employ to perform those activities. Any agents of such a government, whether the leaders or the "tools" used to carry out the activity, are fully responsible for their actions in attacking their fellow man.

As government is the greatest concentration of those that wish to implement such violence in human interactions any abuse of the power granted to them must be resisted as strongly as is practicably possible. Given the power of the organization actually responding with appropriate violence to protect yourself from such actions is suicidal, therefore the most practical method of opposing such actions is to expose and protest the actions through various means.

When I protest against someone, such as a police officer, who has abused the rights of a fellow citizen through the use of violence, or the threat thereof, that is fully justified as the agent of the government is as responsible for the abuse of power as the person directing them. And those that defend such abuses under various guises such as "the price we pay for a 'civilized' society" are equally as responsible.

So, let's discuss. Let me know how you defend assaulting innocent people who are just trying to live their lives peaceably in the name of some sort of "social contract" or whatever excuse you wish to give.

Keith


A few weeks living in Compton California will cure you of these views in a hurry.

But hey, isn't it convenient to live in a country that will allow you to express your views so openly without the threat of oppression?

I have always believed that people who profess a desire for anarchy do so while living in a country that protects them from the very abuses they think are perpetrated on them.


So taking back control and not having the government micromanage us equals anarchy? It's We the People, not We the People under a government to tax the crap out of us to gain more power.


Let me ask you something, who is doing the taking back? Take what back? What are you arguing to replace it with?

The last time I checked, we are still having open transparent and free elections where the PEOPLE are choosing their representatives. I haven't seen any Government officials who lost an election say; "no, I am not leaving office and you can't make me."

[preservanation]

I haven't seen any Government officials who lost an election say; "no, I am not leaving office and you can't make me." William Jefferson (D, LA.)

[Truth Detector]

I haven't seen any Government officials who lost an election say; "no, I am not leaving office and you can't make me." William Jefferson (D, LA.)


Okay......ONE. You got me. LOL

:clapper:

[Keith Hamburger]

I have to say that Truth Detector has mostly provided ad hominems and straw men to the posts of actual, documented, facts provided by others.

But, what else is new.

Keith

...because you say so.

You just can't help yourself can you Keith? I see that you also like to misuse adjectives because it is apparent you are clueless what ad hominem means:

Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

Or, you could try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
or, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad%20hominem
or, http://www.logicalfallacies.info/personalattack.html

All of which refer to the Latin of "ad hominem", meaning "to the man". An ad hominem is a comment about the person, rather than the argument. We all know it's possible to find most any definition you want if you look far enough, and we have no clue where you got your's. Likely, also, you left off any parts that undermined your arguments. You seem to regularly ignore parts of posts that you can't counter and drag things way off topic by addressing what largely amount to minor points or illustrations.

Beyond that, it's my thread.

[hr]


So taking back control and not having the government micromanage us equals anarchy? It's We the People, not We the People under a government to tax the crap out of us to gain more power.


Let me ask you something, who is doing the taking back? Take what back? What are you arguing to replace it with?

Perhaps you should check your attributions before you ask for a response from someone.

Keith

[Pookie]

You're right Keith, this is your thread. Speaking of agendas, I think it's better to have an agenda rather than not have one. Having an agenda, to me, indicates that a person is thinking and educating themselves.
That's why it's really impossible for me to say anyone's agenda is really wrong; it's like finding fault with someone's thought process, which is really a bad idea.
Some people don't think at all and blindly follow anything on a whim, because they don't know what they want, or who they are.
Agendas work for me -- at least people in this forum are using their brains, and I like that. I don't have to agree, but I can always learn something.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Osborn F. Enready]

Pookie said:
That's why it's really impossible for me to say anyone's agenda is really wrong; it's like finding fault with someone's thought process, which is really a bad idea.


I totally disagree here.

A large portion of peoples problems in relating to one another, is the issue of flawed thought processes being recognized as "equal" to non-flawed thought process. Irrational being equated to rational. Illegal being equated to legal.....

One of my favorite examples of this is the concept of "unconditional love", the biggest myth and most hypocritical nonsense I have ever heard.

How can one love something, regardless of its actions, goals or intention? You can't, and to say you can is a hollow, false sentiment.

You can't love the thieving, murdering, child raping, family killing, madman equally to your role model, say perhaps, your mother who raised, cared for and nurtured you, as well as protected you from harm until adulthood. If you could, what would seperate them, and would the position of role model also be interchangeable between them?

Unconditional love is denial of what it means to be human, and is irrational, which is EVIDENCE of a flawed thought process.

Doing the same thing over and over again, each time expecting a different outcome, is evidence of a flawed thought process.

I have to disagree here pookie.

Logic and reason are the only means to achieve a rational life agenda, or goals, but I will say that there is no reason one can't hold on to a subjective folly of their own, as a hobby. However, to put that subjective nonsense in the public circle, and expect it not to be called for what it is is irrational.

I have no mercy for the men of muscle or the men of unreason, they bear the bulk of the burden for many of the preventable ills in this worlds history. :ponder:

[Pookie]

I was referring to political agendas in accordance with the original post. I was getting back on topic.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Keith Hamburger]

I was referring to political agendas in accordance with the original post. I was getting back on topic.
Purrs,
Pookie


Well, I have to pretty much agree with Os here. I think there are flawed though processes and I do find that many on this board don't really think but parrot things they would like to see without giving any real consideration to the means of acheiving those goals.

Trying to stay where things are relative to the OP might be a bit tough, I didn't go back and read what I wrote weeks ago, but my general principles haven't changed for years, so I imagine I can get pretty close.

I believe that the vast majority of people are good and competent no matter what their beliefs or thought processes are. Good meaning they are doing what they believe is best. Note I don't use the words "think is best" because I'm not sure many of them really think.

Good is that which promotes life, evil is that which is against life. And, that which promotes life is that which is conducive to the nature of the entity. For humans, independent, rational thought is the characteristic with which we work to promote our own lives. Voluntary cooperation is a part of that life giving process, but, ultimately we are all responsible for own lives and making choices and taking actions to promote our own lives. Even choosing those with whom we wil