Time to go, Rumsfeld

[wonder cow]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20019889-663,00.html


WASHINGTON - Hillary Clinton has called on US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to quit.

Senator Clinton accused him of "presiding over a failed policy in Iraq".

"I just don't understand why we can't get new leadership that would give us a fighting chance to turn the situation around before it's too late," said Senator Clinton, a possible 2008 presidential candidate for the Democrats.

"I think the President should choose to accept Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation."

Earlier, at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing, Senator Clinton ripped into Mr Rumsfeld for his handling of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

"We hear a lot of happy talk and rosy scenarios, but because of the Administration's strategic blunders and, frankly, the record of incompetence in executing, you are presiding over a failed policy.

"Given your track record, Secretary Rumsfeld, why should we believe your assurances now?" she asked.

Mr Rumsfeld seemed briefly stunned, exclaiming "My goodness" before launching into a point-by-point defence.

He rejected some of her specific criticisms as simply wrong and said the war on terror would be a drawn-out process.

"Are there setbacks? Yes," Mr Rumsfeld said. "Is this problem going to get solved in the near term? I think it's going to take some time."

Iraq is caught in the worst sectarian violence yet seen and faces the threat of civil war, two top generals told the Senate hearing.

"Sectarian violence probably is as bad as I've seen it, in Baghdad in particular," said army General John Abizaid, head of US Central Command.

"If not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."

Marine Corps General Peter Pacealso said there was a "possibility" of civil war.

Senator Clinton said Mr Rumsfeld's answers at the hearing convinced her he should go.

IN Baghdad, thousands of Shiite youths, some armed and many covered in white shrouds, gathered for a pro-Hezbollah rally to show support for its fight against Israel.

The chief of Mosul's police was killed by a car bomb, and heavy clashes between insurgents and US and Iraqi forces were reported in the city, Iraq's third largest.

After the admission a couple of days ago by senior military folk about the true state of affairs in Iraq, I think we would be better off with someone else at the helm in the Defense Department.

[start irony and general wiseassery]
I don't understand why the liberal news media is not reporting on all the great progress being made in Iraq and all the good things that forced Western democracy brings. Such liberal bias makes me sick. Where is all the good news?
[end irony and general wiseassery]

It seems the "make America lose with absurd policy and just keep claiming victory" crowd may have just danced their last little jig on the dance floor of lies. Feel free to use that. It's original. :rolleyes:

[BoogyMan]

Now that Senator scumbag has read her talking points and taken a bunch of cheap shots in the Senate hearings, I have to ask how one of the democrats would stop a civil war?

You honestly believe that Rumsfeld's answers pushed her to pull that stunt? If so, wow, thats just pitiful. She knew what she was going to do when she drug her opportunist carcass into that hearing.

[Cobra]

Â*She knew what she was going to do when she drug her opportunist carcass into that hearing.
That's what makes her the politician she is, do you truly believe most of the others from either party are any better. Maybe they don't get slammed as much on it or are not as obvious but I would bet their no better. Talking points win elections.

[lily]

BoogyMan


Now that Senator scumbag has read her talking points and taken a bunch of cheap shots in the Senate hearings, I have to ask how one of the democrats would stop a civil war?
I think the question you should be asking yourself is how and why it got this far?

You honestly believe that Rumsfeld's answers pushed her to pull that stunt?Â*Â*If so, wow, thats just pitiful.
What stunt would that be? Doing her job? I'm no HIllary fan, but the joint cheifs were there to answer questions. America still has the right to know. It's just sad, that senators had to ask the question, most Americans already knew.Â*
Â*She knew what she was going to do when she drug her opportunist carcass into that hearing.
Drug him is right.......he said he wasn't going to come. Changed his mind at the last minute. How would it look, if he didn't show up?

Let me ask you one question.........Rumsfailed offered Bush his resignation twice already, according to him. If he was doing such a good job, why would he do that?

Oh.....hell........while I'm at it, let me ask you one more. If he was your employee and doing such a shitty job, wouldn't you fire him?

[wonder cow]

I have to ask how one of the democrats would stop a civil war?

I think the question you should be asking yourself is how and why it got this far?

Good answer.

I would just add, why does it have to be a democrat? This issue is too important to become defensive strictly based on partisanship. Over the last 6 months, several retiring generals have expressed a lack of confidence in Mr. Rumsfeld's leadership. The only honorable thing for him to do is step down and let someone else take the helm.

You honestly believe that Rumsfeld's answers pushed her to pull that stunt?

You tink he huwt his wittle feelwings?

Boo Hoo.

[BoogyMan]

I have to ask how one of the democrats would stop a civil war?

I think the question you should be asking yourself is how and why it got this far?

Good answer.

I would just add, why does it have to be a democrat? This issue is too important to become defensive strictly based on partisanship. Over the last 6 months, several retiring generals have expressed a lack of confidence in Mr. Rumsfeld's leadership. The only honorable thing for him to do is step down and let someone else take the helm.

You honestly believe that Rumsfeld's answers pushed her to pull that stunt?

You tink he huwt his wittle feelwings?

Boo Hoo.



Wow, baby talk, cow. Unexpected but telling. Now answer the question.

[wonder cow]

Wow, baby talk, cow. Unexpected but telling. Now answer the question

What question?

The thing about what democrates would do?

How would I know? Maybe zip an email over to the DNC and see what they say.

[Old Corps Gunny]

Interesting that Hillary has no problem with ripping Rumsfeld apart at this hearing; and calls for new leadership to "turn the situation around" but is unable herself to provide suggestions on how to do this. As usual, this was just Hillary trying to get press coverage. I admit that this intervention in Iraq is all screwed up, but I sincerely doubt Hillary has any answers. The administration's stated goals are for our forces to remain until Iraq has a functional democratic government and the ability to protect itself. I am beginning to wonder if this is even possible when I see a massive turnout of Shi'ites in Baghdad supporting Hezbollah, an unending incursion of foreign fighters dedicated to killing Sunnis and, above all, Americans, and unceasing sectarian violence. I would say we have done all we can to provide the Iraqis an opportunity to live under self-rule and let them deal with their own domestic problems. Unfortunately, if (and when) a civil war breaks out and the Shi'ites prevail, Iraq would become a province of Iran in fact, if not in name. This would definitely not be in the best interest of the United States or the stability of the Middle East.

[lily]

Interesting that Hillary has no problem with ripping Rumsfeld apart at this hearing; and calls for new leadership to "turn the situation around" but is unable herself to provide suggestions on how to do this.

Your answer is in your own sentence, Gunny. Rumsfailed should step down and let someone who knows what they are doing take over.

[BoogyMan]

Wow, baby talk, cow. Unexpected but telling. Now answer the question

What question?

The thing about what democrates would do?

How would I know? Maybe zip an email over to the DNC and see what they say.


OK, that was a pretty funny answer. :)

[Rider]

I think that the assumption that anyone else might just step in and figure it all out is pretty hollow.
Until and if ever the people of theUnited States truly realize that we are in a war for our very survival and decide to fight it with no holds barred we will never have victory or peace.

[lily]

Rider


I think that the assumption that anyone else might just step in and figure it all out is pretty hollow.
Oh.......I think any number of people could take over his job tomorrow and do a better job.......straightening out his mess, isÂ*Â*a different story.


Until and if ever the people of theUnited States truly realize that we are in a war for our very survival and decide to fight it with no holds barred we will never have victory or peace.

::scratches head:: I swore on another thread, you said we should pull out? Something about their oil and let them all kill each other?

[Rider]

Lily- I think that you are refering to a post that I made earlier. I was speaking of the late 1980's when the Soviet Union fell. It might have been better if we had withdrawn from the region along with the Russians. In any event, the point is moot now. I certainly wasn't talking about Iraq. Pulling out of Iraq would be a complete disaster. Sorry if I was unclear.

OK, so who would you pick to replace Rumsfeld? So many want to play armchair general, but I hear no concrete suggestions on what should be done differently. Except of course for those of us that think brute force would be a good idea.

[lily]

OK, so who would you pick to replace Rumsfeld?
Well......Powell comes first to mind.........but then, I doubt he wants anything to do with this fiasco, especially since he's the only one that has apologised for misleading this country into war.

So then, I'll go for the obvious. One of the two that actually know what they are doing Abizad or Casey.

So many want to play armchair general, but I hear no concrete suggestions on what should be done differently.
As I have already stated......the concrete suggestion on what should be done differently is get rid of Rumsfailed....but if you mean in this war.......it's too late to do any thing differently.

[Rider]

Powell was never in sync with the administration and I don't think he was every happy with his position. Just my opinion.

Either of the other two would be fine, but it rankles me that you are so adamant the Rumsfeld step down. Also, "Rumsfailed" is disrespectful and childish.

[lily]

Rider


Powell was never in sync with the administration and I don't think he was every happy with his position. Just my opinion.
Well, you may be right about that. He did say he would serve, but only one term. No more. He couldn't get out of there fast enough!

He is an honest man and this administration used him. They knew the public trusted him. Mark my words......they are doing the same thing to Condi. She's about the only one in this administration that is both liked and trusted by both Democrats and Republicans. I actually felt sorry for her, flipping the news shows this morning. Saying the same thing to every interviewer.

Either of the other two would be fine, but it rankles me that you are so adamant the Rumsfeld step down.

If someone hasn't been doing his job right for three years, how long do you expect him to hold it? He screwed things up from the very begining. Also, as I mentioned before......he, himself offered his resignation twice. The only reason IMO, that Bush won't letÂ*Â*him go, is then he would have to admit he made another mistake.

Also, "Rumsfailed" is disrespectful and childish.

Childish.....probably. It's an old habit. I've called him that from the begining. It suits him. As for disrespectful.......he's done nothing to earn my respect.

[Rider]

Respect would be for the office of Secretary of Defense, not just the man. Just because you don't like the job he's done doesn't mean he hasn't done the best he could. It's not like we had 400,000 or 500,000 spare troops sitting around gathering dust somewhere. It's like he said, "you go to war with what you have, not what you wish you had".

Since when has canning a cabinet member meant admitting a mistake?

You seem to want to assign dark and sinister motives to everything the administration has done. I doubt that Powell was "used" any more or less than anyone else.

[lily]

Rider


Respect would be for the office of Secretary of Defense, not just the man. Just because you don't like the job he's done doesn't mean he hasn't done the best he could. It's not like we had 400,000 or 500,000 spare troops sitting around gathering dust somewhere. It's like he said, "you go to war with what you have, not what you wish you had".
What was the big hurry then? Why send men into battle, if you don't have enough to do the job and they aren't well equipped? As for Rumsfailed's worn out expression..........You go to war with what you have, not what you wish........you condem the media, yet this statement completely disrespecting our troops is ok with you? You don't think that statement not only demoralized the troops, but was used as propaganda?

Since when has canning a cabinet member meant admitting a mistake?
If Bush fired Rumsfailed, then he would have to admit, that he made a mistake letting him run this fiasco for 3 years. Instead, he tries to keep feeding the citizens sugar coated candy, while the entire country is in the worst shape it's been........according to the generals on the ground.......whom Bush said he was going to take his advice from.

You seem to want to assign dark and sinister motives to everything the administration has done. I doubt that Powell was "used" any more or less than anyone else.

I'm stating my opinion. Nothing more, nothng less.

[ECW]

Also, "Rumsfailed" is disrespectful and childish.
Childish.....probably. It's an old habit. I've called him that from the begining. It suits him. As for disrespectful.......he's done nothing to earn my respect.

You'd figure that after having the same job twice, that he would finally get it right. "Rumsfailed" it is.

[Rider]

ECW wrote- You'd figure that after having the same job twice, that he would finally get it right. "Rumsfailed" it is.
I think that by your criteria no Sec. of Defense during a time of war could be successful.

[ECW]

ECW wrote- You'd figure that after having the same job twice, that he would finally get it right. "Rumsfailed" it is.
I think that by your criteria no Sec. of Defense during a time of war could be successful.


Not so. Henry Stinson was 73 when FDR appointed him Secretary of War. The Republican Party kicked him out because he opted to serve the president. I think he did a pretty damn good job running the military during WW2 and advising Truman on using the atomic bomb as well as a behind the scenes advisor after WW2.

McNamara was a bust (during Vietnam) and Rummy is a disaster. Know why? They did not learn from their mistakes and they keep doing the same damn thing expecting different results. He is clueless. Of course, when you have a Chickenhawk for a Chimp-In-Chief, that's to be expected.

Lily is right on the money with her "Rumsfailed" line. I wish I'd have thought of it.

[Rider]

ECW wrote- Not so. Henry Stinson was 73 when FDR appointed him Secretary of War. The Republican Party kicked him out because he opted to serve the president. I think he did a pretty damn good job running the military during WW2 and advising Truman on using the atomic bomb as well as a behind the scenes advisor after WW2.

McNamara was a bust (during Vietnam) and Rummy is a disaster. Know why? They did not learn from their mistakes and they keep doing the same damn thing expecting different results. He is clueless. Of course, when you have a Chickenhawk for a Chimp-In-Chief, that's to be expected.
How did the Republican party kick a cabinet secretary out of office?

I'll certainly agree with you about McNamara, but I'm not sure that any replacement for Rumsfeld would be able to do any better in Iraq considering the limitations placed on our actions there. I imagine that if Rumsfeld were turned loose to do as he please we'd see the situation change quickly.

[lily]

I'm curious Rider.........who in your opinion is holding Rumsfailed back?

[ECW]

ECW wrote- Not so. Henry Stinson was 73 when FDR appointed him Secretary of War. The Republican Party kicked him out because he opted to serve the president.

How did the Republican party kick a cabinet secretary out of office?

They didn't. They kicked him out of the Republican Party because he went to work for Roosevelt.

[Rider]

ECW wrote- They didn't. They kicked him out of the Republican Party because he went to work for Roosevelt.
Well, that seems to be purely political, doesn't it? What's your point?

ECW wrote- ECW wrote- Not so. Henry Stinson was 73 when FDR appointed him Secretary of War. The Republican Party kicked him out because he opted to serve the president. I think he did a pretty damn good job running the military during WW2 and advising Truman on using the atomic bomb as well as a behind the scenes advisor after WW2.
Really? The island of Kwajelein (spelling?) was thought to be a "hoppable" island by many generals. It was decided that we would take it anyway. It was a two month long bloodbath that cost the lives of more American soldiers and Marines than have been lost in Iraq. As it turned out consensus among strategists was that it had indeed been unecessary.
The entire campaign in Italy ground to a halt after bitter fighting claimed the lives of tens of thousands of American GI's. While it is arguable that it helped win the war, an invasion of France instead of Italy might have saved countless lives and shortened the war by a year or more.
My point is, you hold Rumsfeld to be a failure for mistakes made in Iraq that you happen to want to focus on, yet far greater blunders were made in WWII, but you think that Secretary Stinson did a "pretty damn good job". I just listed two blunders; I could have written a book.

[ECW]

I just listed two blunders; I could have written a book.

Why don't you? The "blunders" of Mr Stinson versus the "blunders" of Rumsfailed. Get back to me in a dozen years when you finish the Rumsfailed part and we'll talk.

[Rider]

No need. Your irrational comparison of the two men amply illustrates that bias is the lens through which you view this war as opposed to WWII.