What is tearing the US apart

[Athena]

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Here is the best explanation of what is tearing the US apart, I have ever seen.Â*Â*Because of this rip, all other evils have been unleashed, as the opening of Pandora's box.Â*Â*We need to focus on resolving this problem and that means Christians need to rethink they what they are doing that so threatens our democracy.Â*Â*Islam the fighting between different Muslim groups, is about this very same problem!Â*Â*This is the problem that could destroy civilization, if not all life on earth, in another world war.Â*Â*Â*Â*

Another influence contributing to the demise of the great books was the demoralization of the Christian intellectual community. Most of the institutions of learning in this country were founded by Christians who saw it as their duty to conquer the intellectual arena for Christ. However, since the rise of secularism and especially since the humiliating defeat that biblical Christians saw at the Scope's Trial, the evangelical community has been in full retreat from the intellectual arena. Before the turn of the century, most institutions of learning were dominated by those who thought from a biblical worldview; however, this consensus quickly began to crumble and in 1925 at the Scope's Trial, through the public humiliation of William Jennings Bryan's creationism, academia as well as the general culture came to hold biblical Christianity as unworthy of intellectual regard. Even though the trial was in no way a rigorous debate of the creation issue, its effect on the Christian intellectual community was nothing short of disastrous. From that point on Christians felt as though the intellectual community had humiliated them and, to return the favor, they abandoned the intellectual community in droves. The intellectual pursuit came to be seen as not only of little value for Christians but also as simply antagonistic to the faith. At this point in history the church saw an unraveling of the Christian intellectual tradition. No longer would Christians apply themselves to the study of the great thinkers; that would be a task left entirely to those with a non-Christian world view.Â*Â*

[Nathan Brazil]

The Theory of Evolution is what's destroying this country?

And here I was thinking it was the populace discovering they could vote themselves money from the national treasury. Silly me.

[Athena]

Do your grasp how the concept of evolution changes our concept of God and reality?

There is a growing divide between fundamentalist Christians and those who are not. The question of evolution drew a clear line in the sand, but recent wars have increased the division. The more Christians attempt to press their beliefs on everyone, the more resistance to them grows. Are you arguing this is not so, or is not significant? Supporting Israel has slightly significant political ramifications don't you think? Getting tangled in religious warfare in the mid east, is costing us millions of dollars daily, and the economic ramifications are devastating! The Baby Boom generation would be enjoying a well funded Older American's Program that would benefit all of us, and their Social Security and Medicare could save for all of us, if we were not spending so much on war. We could improve public education and this is essential to our economic future.

How well did you think through your witty comment? Are you blind to religion having anything to do with the US international decisions?

[Labrocca]

I believe Fundamentalist Christians have ALWAYS been divided from the rest of the world. IMHO there is less Christianity in the USA now than say 50 years ago. So I am not sure how you think that Christians are pressing their beliefs on people. Supporting Israel shouldn't be viewed as a Christian action...it's a Democratic action since Israel is the best democracy in that region.

If you think the Christians are pressing their beliefs than what do you think of these Muslim nations like Syria or Iran? Their laws are Islamic...US law is not Christian law.

[Nathan Brazil]

Do your grasp how the concept of evolution changes our concept of God and reality?Â*Â*

Yeah, evolution denies the interaction of God in human affairs.Â*Â*In other words, evolution is a description of reality.Â*Â*

Are you arguing this is not so, or is not significant?Â*

It's not significant, reality is what it is regardless of what deluded fools consider it to be.

Supporting Israel has slightly significant political ramifications don't you think?Â*Â*Getting tangled in religious warfare in the mid east, is costing us millions of dollars daily, and the economic ramifications are devastating!

Yeah, but that's looney-toon Islam causing the problems, and our choice there is to support Israel, who's opposed to looney-toon Islam, or to not, and thereby default to a supporting position of looney-toon Islam.

From what I've seen of the two religions, it's pretty clear that Judaism is far less malignant than looney-toon Islam.Â*Â*The choice is clear, too.

The Baby Boom generation would be enjoying a well funded Older American's Program that would benefit all of us, and their Social Security and Medicare could save for all of us, if we were not spending so much on war.

What?Â*Â*Why should we be funding the retirees who had their chance to save money and either succeededÂ*Â*or failed?Â*Â*If they succeeded, they don't need the money they'll be getting anyway, and if they failed, it's still not anyone's responsibiility but their own.Â*Â*Either way, the general public should not be financing any form of welfare for old farts, or the young and the useless, either.

But you're free to donate your own personal money to any cause you feel like.Â*Â*How's that for fair and democratic?Â*Â*The people can vote their support of such programs with their own money, and the people that disagree get to have bigger and better parties.

We could improve public education

The only way to improve public education is to privatize it....ie, end it.

How well did you think through your witty comment?Â*Â*Are you blind to religion having anything to do with the US international decisions?

No, I'm perfectly aware that economic and military decisions are made using economic considerations.Â*Â*Religion has damn little to do with it, since the leaders making those decisions, except for looney-toon Islam, are more concerned with money than anything else.Â*Â*Does any properly educated person actually believe in sky-pixies smiting us with thunderbolts?Â*Â*No, not if they're properly educated. It's only the superstitious fools.

And...clearly, what is an concise description of the various welfare and handout programs you're pretending will lead the US to heaven on earth? They're programs developed because politicians learned they could buy votes by giving away money from the treasury. That's the purpose those programs serve, nothing else.

[Rider]

The struggle between religion and secularism in our society is as old as mankind. I submit to you all that if secularism wins this struggle, the days of our nation are numbered. No civilization will long survive without a religious core. It's sort of a endgame "catch 22".
Large societies are notÂ*Â*natural to homo sapiens. The are constructions made possible by our ability to think and learn from our experiences. Now I'm not trying to sell myself as a sociologist or historian, but I'm not aware of any significant civilization that has ever existed without a religious core. The only exceptions to this would be the governments of the communist nations. To me they are the proof that religion is absolutely necessary for civilization to exist for any extended period of time.
When people are raised with the enlightened knowledge that there is no authority higher than the leaders of their nation a downward spiral begins. When the ten commandments become the ten suggestions (I know, that's cliche') every successive generation eliminates one or two from the list. It's simply human nature and as predictable as rain in the springtime. What religion provides is an absolute, objective set of moral standards that define acceptable behavior. When a society follows the standards it becomes healthy and robust and is in ascendancy, at least as far as the wisdom put into those standards.
I could prattle on for several more paragraphs, but I hope that you get my point.
Oh, and Nathan, feel free to tear into me!

[Athena]

You are good with words Rider and I do not intend to argue with your point, but clarify it.

Absolutely, living together in large numbers is pushing a biologically limited brain and its programing too far. A person who truly does not care about his fellow man, is psychopathic and dangerous to others. Most of us are very caring people, but the number of people we can about is biologically limited. Living together in masses is full of problems, and this indeed is why we have government.

According to Cicero government is best when based on the Laws of Nature. Now how do we determine the Laws of Nature, by myth or rational examination of the facts? Have you read what I have been writing about the God of Nature/ God or Reason/Universal Laws? Are you familiar with Humanism and the Humanities?

My point is, we need religion, but it is not helpful when the religion is based on myth and superstition. When religion is based on myth and superstition, people tend to do really bad things, like witch hunts and holy wars. It is also a bit crazy making to teach people to believe they can possessed by evil spirits. I know, because I struggled for my sanity and I to choose either I believed this superstitious non sense or I did not.What was at stake was the lives of the people around me, because if I was possessed I had no control over killing people. If I was not possessed, then I had control over not killing people. I am very glad I choose to put superstitious beliefs behind me me and for all, and I have great compassion for the all the people in prison because they felt possessed and believing it was possible, took action that is regretable. A religion that teaches us there is a supernatural being of evil and things happen because of a God and Satan making them happen, is not good for any civilization. Period.

[Athena]

I believe Fundamentalist Christians have ALWAYS been divided from the rest of the world.Â*Â*IMHO there is less Christianity in the USA now than say 50 years ago.Â*Â*So I am not sure how you think that Christians are pressing their beliefs on people.Â*Â*Supporting Israel shouldn't be viewed as a Christian action...it's a Democratic action since Israel is the best democracy in that region.Â*Â*

If you think the Christians are pressing their beliefs than what do you think of these Muslim nations like Syria or Iran?Â*Â*Their laws are Islamic...US law is not Christian law.


Choke, cough, gag, gasp, where is the emotioncon with a look of horror?
There would not a be a problem with Israel in the mid east if it were democratic.Â*Â*This Zionist state is for Jews, and they have always taken steps to assure they remain in control.Â*Â*This fact determines the politics and everything else happening in that region of the world.Â*Â*It began with violence, including attacking the British who tried to maintain control of the problem they started when they encourage the immigration of the Jews to secure control of this part of the world for themselves.Â*Â*Personally, I would give Israel absolutely no support at all, until it dropped all discriminating laws, and allowed the refugees to return to their land and live in peace with the same access to resources they had before the Jews took over.Â*Â* If you want to discuss this any further, please start a thread for it, and I will start providing information.Â*Â*But I rather limit my comments to objecting to the insanity of acting on some religious beliefs, based on a tribal war god, and adopted mythology.Â*Â*

As for Christians dominating the US and the pressure of religions in all nations of the world, including India- a nation that had terrible laws for religious reasons,Â*Â*democracy is what unites all these people, and results in them behaving rationally.Â*Â* We have freedom of religion, not just because it is a nice idea, but Christians were persecuting and killing each other, just as the division of Muslims are doing.Â*Â*Ouch, the problem here is so bad!Â*Â*People believing their etenral lives depend on doing the will of God and being very dogmatic about what this is.Â*Â*What are the words for what I am trying to say?Â*Â*It is insanity when people fight for their religious beliefs.Â*Â*Democracy says, wait a minute- we can't be that certianity of the truth and need to talk about it until we have a consensus on what truth is.Â*Â*

I repeat this doesn't mean denying a God exist.Â*Â*It means doubting our own ability to know this God and this God's will.Â*Â*How do we know the religious writers of the past were not dislusional?Â*Â*We can know Hebrews translated Sumerian stories and these are now bible stories, and we need to think on this until we can accept the truth of the mythology mixed into Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.Â*Â*Not just myth, but also out dated ideas, like almost imprisoning women in their homes and denying them any right to make decisions about their own lives, and denying them control of property so they can never be independent.Â*Â*Women are evil you know, the bible says so, and being around them when they are menstrating is contaminating!Â*Â*Come on, religion is full of nonsense when people insist their holy books are God's word and can not be changed.Â*Â* It is so stupid! They all changed and changed their holy books, until one day, someone in power says, alright folks, this is it. These are stories we chose and this is the holy book and from here on out, no one is change, delete or add to the book, and the following centuries everyone bows down to this aribary religious authority. This is nuts!

[Nathan Brazil]

The struggle between religion and secularism in our society is as old as mankind. I submit to you all that if secularism wins this struggle, the days of our nation are numbered. No civilization will long survive without a religious core.

Why? Got any evidence to back up your claim that civilizations have to have delusions of a religious nature to survive? What reason do you feel it's not possible for reason to rule instead? Last time I checked, God wasn't in the US Constitution, and She hasn't been doing much of anything for anyone in the last 15 billion years or so, anyway.

[Athena]

The struggle between religion and secularism in our society is as old as mankind. I submit to you all that if secularism wins this struggle, the days of our nation are numbered. No civilization will long survive without a religious core.

Why?Â*Â*Got any evidence to back up your claim that civilizations have to have delusions of a religious nature to survive?Â*Â*What reason do you feel it's not possible for reason to rule instead?Â*Â*Last time I checked, God wasn't in the US Constitution, and She hasn't been doing much of anything for anyone in the last 15 billion years or so, anyway.


Nathan, I love your question and have contemplated this for a long time.
Socrates' peers ordered him to either stop speaking with youth and stirring up questions about the gods, or drink the hemlock.

There are too ways to have social order, culture or authority over the people. We do not have to have religion, but must have a shared culture, or there is the end of liberty, and in its place is a police state.

Small groups of people handle everything personally. They don't need laws or law enforcers because everyone knows everyone, and it isn't nice to be disliked, so people conform to the groups idea of a good person. This idea of what it means to be a good person, is communicated through stories, which are the bases for mythology, and all people have these stories explaining creation and other things essential to the group survival as a group. This is the foundation of religion.

The God of Abraham was one of many tribal Gods, and why the bible mentions other Gods and explains the God of Abrabam is a jealous God and revengeful God, and we shouldn't worship any other Gods. This gives everyone identity with the group, and prevents them from being assimilated into other groups. Judaism couldn't have survived without this loyalty to the tribal God.

However, there is another way to go. Instead of religion we can have culture. Until 1958 the US had both religion and culture. However, that religion couldn't unite everyone, because of sharp differing opinions about God's truth, and no opposition to Christianity to stir the defenses of Christian people, consolidating them into one religion, instead of many separate religions that strongly disagree with each other. Democracy united everyone, and its culture was based on the idealized Hellenism of Athens and Rome. American hereos were created as models of ideal US citizenship. However, you might notice this is no longer true. We have destroyed our heros, and have become amoral. We are ripping our nation apart, and our politics are now reactionary politics, everyone voting with self interest, instead of shared principles that incompass the well being of everyone in the common wealth, and those who do not have a special interest group representing them in congress are screwed.

People's understanding of religion can change, but an eternal God and promise of eternity, with only one book for the religion carrying the authority of anquity, is more stable then culture, because religious people understand why their religion needs to be taught, but citizens of a nation do not understand the importance of culture. It is my hope they can learn the importance of culture, but if I am the sole voice for that, and everyone remains out to kick my ass and prove me wrong, the only thing that will remain for social control/order in the US is, authority over the people. That is a police state. Everyone will be controlled by laws and law enforcers, and their liberty will be lost, if they are not controlled by culture and informal social agreements.

[Rider]

Nathan-
The Soviet Union was established around 1920 (sorry, I don't have the exact date) and rose like a rocket to become the most powerful and advanced civilization the world has ever seen, with the exception of the United States. Their official religion was atheism; no religion at all. I've never heard of another example of this (outside of other communist nations). Russia had suffered terribly during the second world war with somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 million dead; more than any other country. Yet over the next three or so generations their leadership would slaughter almost 40 million of their own people. No other nation in the history of mankind has ever done that (once again, with the exception of communist China). What happened next surprised everyone. They crumbled! They just fell apart. Their society was rotten throughout. They had no core strength; nothing to believe in or cling to.

On the contrary- God is part and parcel to the constitution. A belief in God was the foundation of American democracy. It is saturated in the Judeo Christian ethic. Fairness, freedom and respect for others are key parts of that ethic. I am amazed that you don't see this.

As forÂ*Â*delusions, I'm not a very religious guy, but the older I get the more I realize that there is more in heaven and earth than dreamt of in my philosophies. OK, I stole that, but I hope you get my point.

[Athena]

"If you think the Christians are pressing their beliefs than what do you think of these Muslim nations like Syria or Iran? Their laws are Islamic...US law is not Christian law".

Interesting statement.Â*Â*It was Christian people literate in Greek and Roman classics who started the democracy of the US.Â*Â*This Christianity is different from Christianity without literacy in the classics.Â*Â*However, the majority of people who cared enough about government to participate in it, were Christian, and their reasoning for having a democracy is not all kings were a man of God doing God's will, and they needed a way to assure the ruler was a man of God, doing God's will. Ciciero was not Christian, but stressed the same idea. We must know and be guided by God's will.Â*Â*

But, hum, ;) God's will is up to little groups' interpretations of His will, and Christians surely did not agree on the interpretation of the bible and God's will, but they had more shared values than people without religion functioning solely on self interest.Â*Â*The shared values of Christians, backed by a shared culture transmitting through public education, the original sole purpose of free public education, united the people of the US.

The Muslim nations do not have this cultural unity.Â*Â*Some Muslims adopted the classics and others rejected them, as was so for Christians being literate in the classics, and others rejecting them, as you can see people doing in these forums.Â*Â*And there are born again Christians here who are rejecting everything, but what their church teaches.Â*Â*However, I haven't seen Forrest Ranger lately. Anyway, Islam is divided and is now engaged in violent conflict, and their countries don't have the culture bases on the western classics that the US had. They are more eastern culture than western culture, I think (?).

If it had not been for cultural factors transmitted through public education, Christians would be identical to Muslims, who are divided and at war with each other.Â*Â*Like if alliens from outer space were observing us, either they would be as irrational as we are, or shaking their heads in disbelief about how irrational we are.Â*Â*

Without the culture for democracy, a democracy can not be achieved by economic warfare, as was done to destroy the USSR, or military might as was done to destroy the unity of Iraq. Â*We have been very foolish, and personally, I believe very immoral.Â*Â*Carter was a moral president but most have not been so moral.Â*Â*

[Nathan Brazil]

People's understanding of religion can change, but an eternal God and promise of eternity, with only one book for the religion carrying the authority of anquity, is more stable then culture, because religious people understand why their religion needs to be taught, but citizens of a nation do not understand the importance of culture.Â*Â*It is my hope they can learn the importance of culture, but if I am the sole voice for that, and everyone remains out to kick my ass and prove me wrong, the only thing that will remain for social control/order in the US is, authority over the people.Â*Â*That is a police state.Â*Â*Everyone will be controlled by laws and law enforcers, and their liberty will be lost, if they are not controlled by culture and informal social agreements.Â*

In other words, you don't think any people are able to think for themselves and that they need to be brainwashed by religion in order to create a stable society. That, of course, is also what they did in ancient Athens. No miracles there, that culture was as shackled by superstition as most others, more than this one, definitely.

Religious people certainly don't understand why their religion has to be perpetuated, since truth is anethema to religion. They presume their religion is taught because that's what their god wants, not because it's what the con-men using their ideas of god wants.

[Rider]

Athena:"If it had not been for cultural factors transmitted through public education, Christians would be identical to Muslims..."

Not by a long shot, Athena. Islam is based on warfare, bloodshed and violent subjugation of enemies. Christianity is based on love, forgiveness and self determination. Their religious doctrines could not possibly produce similar societies.

[Athena]

In other words, you don't think any people are able to think for themselves and that they need to be brainwashed by religion in order to create a stable society.Â*Â*That, of course, is also what they did in ancient Athens.Â*Â*No miracles there, that culture was as shackled by superstition as most others, more than this one, definitely.

Religious people certainly don't understand why their religion has to be perpetuated, since truth is anethema to religion.Â*Â* They presume their religion is taught because that's what their god wants, not because it's what the con-men using their ideas of god wants.



Either you don't read much of what I write, or you have a very difficult time understanding concepts.Â*Â*

For there to be liberty, there must be a culture that bonds people together and directs them to share their commonwealth in such a way that everyone has a sense of justice.Â*Â*This is done through culture, not laws and law enforcement. If this is not achieved, people become self centered and narrow minded and start making decisions that tear them apart and pit them against each other.Â*Â*This becomes anarchy, and because anarchy can not be tolerated, it leads to a police state.

Naturalism and humanism both examine the cause and effect of all things, and provides a way for thinking people to live together.Â*Â*Have you read any of the Cicero quotes I have provided?Â*Â*Democracy is rule by reason.Â*Â*I am afraid I am not doing a good job communicating what this means, but I do not understand the problem people are having with understanding the concept.Â*Â*

We can have a concept of God, and moral, without it being the tribal God of Abraham, and without all the mythology that goes with popular religion.Â*Â*We can have a culture that manifest the highest moral standards by preparing our young for independent thinking and good moral judgement, and I have been explaining this since I first began these forums.Â*Â*Why does it appear you have not understood anything I am saying?

[Nathan Brazil]

Democracy is rule by reason.Â*Â*I am afraid I am not doing a good job communicating what this means, but I do not understand the problem people are having with understanding the concept.

No, you're just wrong, is all.

Democracy is de mobcracy, the rule of the majority. It doesn't require reason, and in fact, since it's the majority picking and choosing, reason doesn't have much to do with it at all, since the majority of people are totally incapable of rational thought.

Â*Â*

Why does it appear you have not understood anything I am saying?

That I disagree with you isn't an indication that I don't understand you, it's an reflection of your errors.

[Rider]

Nathan-"That I disagree with you isn't an indication that I don't understand you, it's an reflection of your errors."

Nathan, you're a pompus ass, but you're OUR pompus ass!
Love ya, man!