IDF admits responsibility for Qana bombing, admits civilians died

[Alonzo]

(Beirut, August 3, 2006) ? The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) inquiry into the July 30 killing of at least 28 civilians in Qana is incomplete and legally misguided, and contradicts eyewitness testimony, Human Rights Watch said today. The findings underline the need for an independent international inquiry into what took place. "The Israeli military's explanation of what happened raises more questions than it answers," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "Crucial information is missing to determine what led the IDF to attack these civilians. Only an independent international investigation can get at that."

The IDF announced today that it targeted the building "in accordance with the military's guidelines regarding the use of fire against suspicious structures." Since July 12, Hezbollah fighters had launched more than 150 rockets from Qana and the surrounding area, the IDF said. The military said it attacked based on information that "the building was not inhabited by civilians and was being used as a hiding place for terrorists."

But the IDF failed to provide important details about the attack, Human Rights Watch said. First, it did not say whether it believed that Hezbollah fighters were in or around the building at the time of or directly prior to the attack, which would potentially make the building a legitimate target. Its failure even to make this claim suggests that fighters were not present.

That conclusion was supported by two eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, who said that Hezbollah was not in the area when the attack took place. Human Rights Watch researchers who visited Qana the day after the attack found no destroyed military equipment in or near the home. None of the international journalists, rescue workers and international observers who visited the scene has yet reported seeing evidence of Hezbollah military presence in the area, and rescue workers have not yet recovered any bodies identifiable as Hezbollah fighters.

Second, the IDF did not clarify why it believed that Hezbollah fighters were in the building, rather than civilians. According to Muhammad Mahmud Shalhub, who was in the basement during the attack, 63 members of the extended Shalhub and Hashim families sought shelter in the building when the first Israeli bombs hit Qana in the early evening of July 29. It remains unclear why the IDF, with superior aerial surveillance, did not know the families were there.

"Why did the Israeli military consider the building 'suspicious'?" Roth asked. "What information did it have to reach that conclusion?"

The IDF also repeated previous statements that it had warned Qana residents to evacuate, thereby suggesting that it was the victims' fault because they chose to remain. But in Qana and other villages in southern Lebanon, thousands of residents have been unable to leave the area because they are sick, wounded, do not have the means to leave or they fear Israeli attacks on vehicles.

"The Israeli military cannot warn people to leave and then attack at will," Roth said. "The warnings are not an excuse to shoot blindly at anyone who remains."

In a report issued today, "Fatal Strikes: Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon," Human Rights Watch documented a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as subsequent strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.

Of all the cases of civilian casualties included in the report, Human Rights Watch found, none involved Hezbollah deliberately using civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah has occasionally stored weapons in or near civilian homes and placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near United Nations observers. Such acts are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those violations did not account for the many deaths recorded in the Human Rights Watch report. Nor do those cases justify the IDF's extensive use of indiscriminate force, which has cost so many civilian lives.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/4ad8cbdfafa210e47f989b229d2d5129.htm

Military sources told Ynet that "had we known the building was occupied by civilians, we would not have attacked it."

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004420635

[Rider]

How many times must it be said? The terrorists set up these killings deliberately. If Israel were to refuse to hit these targets they might as well surrender and get it over with. And in this particular event it seems pretty clear that it was entirely staged.
Also, I hope you will forgive me if I lend zero credibility to Human Rights Watch. So they "interviewed" two "eye witnesses". Yeah, that's convincing.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

No one's denied they bombed the building or they targeted it though.

Nobody.

It's just suspicous, though you seem to disagree, that the building mysteriously exploded 8 hours after it was attacked with "sleeping" people inside despite bombing and artillery strikes in the area, which if you ever heard, would NEVER be able to sleep through.

[BoogyMan]

Alonzo,

To couch this pistol-piece you dug up in the "Israeel doesn't deny they hit the building" form shows a complete lack of respect for the facts.

Israel has ALWAYS said, yes we hit the building. What you are so desperate to try and infer is that Israel is responsible for the explosion of the building more than 8 hours after the air strike.

The facts on the ground don't support your rhetoric and there is more than enough sloppiness on the part of Hizbollah to make the case that things are not as your emotionally charged crowd would like everyone to believe that they are.

This is beneath even you Zo.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

But he loves Hezbollah, they're victims in all this.Â*Â*There's nothing wrong with them lobbing hundreds of rockets a day into northern Israel indiscriminately targeting anything or anyone but military targets.

The Joos are evil and kill babies.

[BoogyMan]

But he loves Hezbollah, they're victims in all this.Â*Â*There's nothing wrong with them lobbing hundreds of rockets a day into northern Israel indiscriminately targeting anything or anyone but military targets.

The Joos are evil and kill babies.


He would also have you think that Hizbollah has only been doing this for the last few weeks and that Israel is seriously over-reacting.

Zo, how about telling the truth that this has been going on since two weeks before the Israelis gave the Palestinians back major portions of the west bank. Lets see, that was August of 2005. So Israel has been taking rocket hits DAILY since then, no to mention the occaisonal murder bomber who walks into a crowded cafe and blows up every one in the place, "just because."

GADS....

[Nathan Brazil]

[quote] (Beirut, August 3, 2006) The IDF announced today that it targeted the building "in accordance with the military's guidelines regarding the use of fire against suspicious structures." Since July 12, Hezbollah fighters had launched more than 150 rockets from Qana and the surrounding area, the IDF said. The military said it attacked based on information that "the building was not inhabited by civilians and was being used as a hiding place for terrorists."

But the IDF failed to provide important details about the attack, Human Rights Watch said. First, it did not say whether it believed that Hezbollah fighters were in or around the building at the time of or directly prior to the attack, which would potentially make the building a legitimate target. Its failure even to make this claim suggests that fighters were not present.

What? What kind of stupid retarded rule is this? Hezbollah can shoot missiles off at random uncontrolled targets, and the Human Rights Watchers say nada, but Israel can't shoot at the place where the missile came from without getting shit on because civillians were too stupid to leave the area after the Hezzies fired off a few rounds?

HINT: The people either didn't leave, and thus were STOOPID, and their elimination improved the gene pool, or they showed up immediately after, and were still damn STOOPID because the war had been going on for weeks.

Any way we can get the Hezzies to fire rockets from the Human Rights Watch offices?

That conclusion was supported by two eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, who said that Hezbollah was not in the area when the attack took place.

You mean they left? But they cared so much about their own people they didn't warn them, as if that was needed, of the coming retaliation?

If the Hezzies don't care about their people, why should anyone else?

[quote=alonzomourning23]The IDF also repeated previous statements that it had warned Qana residents to evacuate, thereby suggesting that it was the victims' fault because they chose to remain.

Makes sense to me.

"The Israeli military cannot warn people to leave and then attack at will," Roth said. "The warnings are not an excuse to shoot blindly at anyone who remains."

Sure they are, why not? I mean, the weatherman warned us about Katrina, and I don't place all the blame on Mayor Noggin for the number of people who remained behind. They're STOOPID, too.

What's wrong with the Western concept of personal responsibility?

[Alonzo]

Zo, how about telling the truth that this has been going on since two weeks before the Israelis gave the Palestinians back major portions of the west bank. Lets see, that was August of 2005. So Israel has been taking rocket hits DAILY since then, no to mention the occaisonal murder bomber who walks into a crowded cafe and blows up every one in the place, "just because."

Yet you conveniently leave out that Israel never stopped attacking Palestinian targets.

There's also a difference between Hezbollah and Palestinian groups.

But he loves Hezbollah, they're victims in all this.Â*Â*There's nothing wrong with them lobbing hundreds of rockets a day into northern Israel indiscriminately targeting anything or anyone but military targets.

The Joos are evil and kill babies.


PAD, you really need to stop trolling.

Israel has ALWAYS said, yes we hit the building. What you are so desperate to try and infer is that Israel is responsible for the explosion of the building more than 8 hours after the air strike.



According to survivors of the strike, two extended families had taken
shelter in the building. The survivors said that the Shalhoub and Hashem
families remained in the building because they were unable to afford the
cost of traveling north. The families also assumed that the Israeli drones that were patrolling the skies above the village had seen that the building was occupied by numerous children.

The survivors spoke of two bombings - one at 1 A.M., and the second some 10 minutes later. However, what appeared to the survivors as a second bombing may have been the sound of the building coming down. None of the survivors said that the building only collapsed several hours later.

Ibrahim Shalhoub described how he and his cousin had left to find help
following the strike on the building. "It was dark and there was lots of
smoke," he said. "No one could do anything until morning. I could not stop crying; I couldn't help them."

The fact that the Red Cross in Tyre was informed of the incident only in
the morning is another reason why assistance was late in arriving. The
director of the Red Cross office in the city, Sami Yazbek, said that he
received word of the incident only at 7 A.M. The ambulances dispatched to
the area were further delayed by the damaged roads, Yazbek said.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744783.html

[lily]

Let me see if I'm understanding this discussion. People are debating when the building collapsed, but there is no concern that babies were killed...........have I got this right?????

[BoogyMan]

Let me see if I'm understanding this discussion. People are debating when the building collapsed, but there is no concern that babies were killed...........have I got this right?????


No, Lily, you have it very wrong in this case, at least in regard to my commentary. The liberal line on this is that the Israelis are responsible for the entirety of the situation, but there is evidence being considered that brings that into doubt. That is what is being debated. It is a terrible thing when children are killed in wartime or anytime, but when assessing blame lets make sure we consider all that is necessary to do so appropriately.

[lily]

Let me see if I'm understanding this discussion. People are debating when the building collapsed, but there is no concern that babies were killed...........have I got this right?????


No, Lily, you have it very wrong in this case, at least in regard to my commentary.Â*Â*The liberal line on this is that the Israelis are responsible for the entirety of the situation, but there is evidence being considered that brings that into doubt.Â*Â*That is what is being debated.Â*Â*It is a terrible thing when children are killed in wartime or anytime, but when assessing blame lets make sure we consider all that is necessary to do so appropriately.



I wish this thread would go to the next page. I'm getting dizzy trying to read it.

I'm not sure what you're saying. You are with the group that thinks that Hizbollah staged this tragedy? Sorry, that's about as insane as those that think Bush staged 911.

[BoogyMan]

Let me see if I'm understanding this discussion. People are debating when the building collapsed, but there is no concern that babies were killed...........have I got this right?????


No, Lily, you have it very wrong in this case, at least in regard to my commentary.Â*Â*The liberal line on this is that the Israelis are responsible for the entirety of the situation, but there is evidence being considered that brings that into doubt.Â*Â*That is what is being debated.Â*Â*It is a terrible thing when children are killed in wartime or anytime, but when assessing blame lets make sure we consider all that is necessary to do so appropriately.



I wish this thread would go to the next page. I'm getting dizzy trying to read it.

I'm not sure what you're saying. You are with the group that thinks that Hizbollah staged this tragedy? Sorry, that's about as insane as those that think Bush staged 911.


Hi Lily, I am not so sure.Â*Â*The bombing was a good 8 hours before the building just blew up and collapsed.Â*Â*I am saying that it looks fishy.

[Rider]

Photographers have exposed fraud in the photos shown. The time/date stamps don't jive with the accounts given by the "witnesses". Also, the photos show the same bodies being carried out multiple times by different rescuers. The bodies display conditions of rigor mortis that would not occur until later. I know that you'll ask for a link. I've read all this from a couple of sources; I'll try and run it down.

As for comparing this to 9/11; well that's just not possible. Do you honestly believe that the terrorist butchers who strap bombs on their children would have a problem staging this? Do you believe that ANY US president could be behind the mass murder of thousands of our citizens for any reason?

Please reconsider.

[BoogyMan]

Cox and Forkum seem to sum this up pretty well.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.08.01.QanaMassacre-X.gif

[lily]

BoogyMan




Hi Lily, I am not so sure. The bombing was a good 8 hours before the building just blew up and collapsed. I am saying that it looks fishy.

Ok, let's try this. I hate to use 911, but that's the only reerence I can think of.

The building was hit by a bomb and it took 8 hours to collapse.
The Twin Towers were hit by planes.....how long did it take for them to collapse?

I don't know.........8 hours seems to be a little on the longish side, but not totally out of the ball park.

[BoogyMan]

Ok, let's try this. I hate to use 911, but that's the only reerence I can think of.

The building was hit by a bomb and it took 8 hours to collapse.
The Twin Towers were hit by planes.....how long did it take for them to collapse?

I don't know.........8 hours seems to be a little on the longish side, but not totally out of the ball park.

You honestly think that there would be a building full of people after it had been bombed the previous night, unless Hizbollah was keeping them in there?

What about the horrible pictures shown that have the same poor child being carried out of the rubble from several different areas and by several different people?

Things just don't add up Lily.

[lily]

Rider


Photographers have exposed fraud in the photos shown. The time/date stamps don't jive with the accounts given by the "witnesses". Also, the photos show the same bodies being carried out multiple times by different rescuers. The bodies display conditions of rigor mortis that would not occur until later. I know that you'll ask for a link. I've read all this from a couple of sources; I'll try and run it down.
I really would appreciate that. Not to put conditions on it or anything, but please not the article that states that Hizbollah brought dis-abled children into the building, just to kill them off.Â*Â*That article was total bunk.

As for comparing this to 9/11; well that's just not possible. Do you honestly believe that the terrorist butchers who strap bombs on their children would have a problem staging this? Do you believe that ANY US president could be behind the mass murder of thousands of our citizens for any reason?
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that any president would fake 911. It was an analogy, nothing more, nothing less.

Now before I get the label of terrorist sympathizer, that seems to be floating around here, let me explain where I am coming from.

Israel is bombing Lebonon, to get rid of Hezbollah. Fair enough, we need few less terrorists in this world.........but they are doing it at the expense of innocent men, women and children. Israel brags that it has precision bombs, things like this shouldn't be happening. The citizens of Lebonon have nothing to do with this.



Please reconsider.
I'm trying.........convince me.

[lily]

Ok, let's try this. I hate to use 911, but that's the only reerence I can think of.

The building was hit by a bomb and it took 8 hours to collapse.
The Twin Towers were hit by planes.....how long did it take for them to collapse?

I don't know.........8 hours seems to be a little on the longish side, but not totally out of the ball park.

You honestly think that there would be a building full of people after it had been bombed the previous night, unless Hizbollah was keeping them in there?Â*Â*

What about the horrible pictures shown that have the same poor child being carried out of the rubble from several different areas and by several different people?

Things just don't add up Lily.




Waiting on the link, from either you or Rider. On a side note, I don't think your cartoon was very funny.

[BoogyMan]

Waiting on the link, from either you or Rider. On a side note, I don't think your cartoon was very funny.


The cartoon was never intended to be funny, it was intended to make a point, and it did it quite well.

Since you already have said that you wont accept certain sources, why bother posting links Lily?

[lily]

BoogyMan



Since you already have said that you wont accept certain sources, why bother posting links Lily?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I said the story about Hizbollah taking dis-abled children and placing them in the building was already de-bunked........but since you mentioned sources......I don't much trust ynet either. Now, since this is suppose to be big news and all, I don't think that asking for a reputable source is asking for too much.

[Churchel]

all I have to say is war is hell.Â*Â*being a democratically elected entity, hizbollah would ( in my honest opinion) would not leave the weak as cannon fodder.

If any of you ever saw the movie red dawn, I believe every county has its partisan fighters, and there is nothing to stop that.

[Nathan Brazil]

Let me see if I'm understanding this discussion. People are debating when the building collapsed, but there is no concern that babies were killed...........have I got this right?????


They were going to grow up to be good little Hezzie suicide bombers, anyway.

[Nathan Brazil]

all I have to say is war is hell.Â*Â*being a democratically elected entity, hizbollah would ( in my honest opinion) would not leave the weak as cannon fodder.

If any of you ever saw the movie red dawn, I believe every county has its partisan fighters, and there is nothing to stop that.



Patrick Swayze would never hide behind his own family.