Bhutto Assassinated, Breaking Now...

[preservanation]

20 killed in bombing in Pakistan, during Bhutto rally. Bhutto hit, but alive?
This is very bad...

[K-D-K-D-K]

What a shame. Really. I knew this would happen eventually when she came back. This will throw the country into chaos now since her followers have no hope. I bet the taliban had something to do with it since elections are coming up and now the country will be back under marshall law. Musharrif was supposed to give her protection

[jose]

Shot in the head
Benazir Bhutto has been shot dead following a suicide attack on her rally in Rawalpindi.
''We are traumatised. People all over are crying. Everyone is saying that this Army has killed Benazir.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070037032&ch=12/27/2007%207:02:00%20PM

[K-D-K-D-K]

Shot in the head
Benazir Bhutto has been shot dead following a suicide attack on her rally in Rawalpindi.
''We are traumatised. People all over are crying. Everyone is saying that this Army has killed Benazir.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070037032&ch=12/27/2007%207:02:00%20PM
It never said she was shot in the head.

[AnnEsthesia]

Shot in the neck, if the news this morning was accurate.

[jafar00]

Goodbye Pakistan. Musharraf has got to have been involved. A desperate Despot trying to cling to power. I pray that this doesn't lead to civil war.

[K-D-K-D-K]

Shot in the neck, if the news this morning was accurate.
Just hear Matt Lauer say she was shot in the chest ,neck and Head which was the fatal wound. Yep Musharrif has dashed the hopes of millions that supported her by not giving her military protection like he has. It was only 2 assassins

[lawless168]

Goodbye Pakistan. Musharraf has got to have been involved. A desperate Despot trying to cling to power. I pray that this doesn't lead to civil war.
HHmmm, but I thought it was al Qaeda & taliban that threatened her life if she came back to Pakistan and Musharraf said he couldn't promise her security and said it would be safer for her to remain in the USA for now.

Maybe a civil war would be a good thing and finally take out them flockers that support al Qaeda & taliban once and for all. :fight:

[ECW]

Maybe a civil war would be a good thing and finally take out them flockers that support al Qaeda & taliban once and for all. :fight:


What makes you so sure that AQ and the Taliban would lose that civil war? The Soviets once thought the same thing about the Mujahideen. No civil war is ever a good thing.

[micfranklin]

One of the many risks of being a political figure.....

[Keith Hamburger]

Goodbye Pakistan. Musharraf has got to have been involved. A desperate Despot trying to cling to power. I pray that this doesn't lead to civil war.
HHmmm, but I thought it was al Qaeda & taliban that threatened her life if she came back to Pakistan and Musharraf said he couldn't promise her security and said it would be safer for her to remain in the USA for now.

Maybe a civil war would be a good thing and finally take out them flockers that support al Qaeda & taliban once and for all. :fight:


But if we were to take out all of the terrorism supporters in Pakistan, there probably would no longer be a Pakistan. With Musharraf's recent actions of imposing martial law, firing judges that wished to uphold the country's laws and packing the courts with his own supporters, he would probably be at the top of the list.

Is it any wonder that people in foreign countries hate our government and react with violence when we support ruthless dictators as long as they don't resist our orders too strongly?

And, is anyone at all really surprised by this killing?

It probably won't be proven, and I'm certain our government would never look into it, but it was most likely an act by the current regime because Bhutto was proven to be too popular amongst the people and actually might care about the country and the citizens rather than suppressing the country while toadying to Bush.

Keith

[Alonzo]

As much as this is a blow to her party, it's a blow to Musharaf as well. She likely would have won any free and fair election in Pakistan and it seems very probable that many will accuse him of involvement. The stability of his rule, whatever was left of it anyway, will likely be lost.

What makes you so sure that AQ and the Taliban would lose that civil war? The Soviets once thought the same thing about the Mujahideen. No civil war is ever a good thing.

The moderates are the dominant force though. Considering the minority of extremists will be seen to have fired the first shots it puts them at a disadvantage.

[lily]

It seems all the talking heads are saying Taliban and AQ, but in my mind the only one that really wanted her gone would be her rival in the elections.

Here are my other thoughts on this, sort of off topic, but it's how I feel. Well, let's see what we have here. We have one of America's closest allies in the Middle East, that wants to be re-elected no matter if he fires the court that decides it, and declairs Marshal Law, we have a unstable country with a nuke, we have a country where according to every intelligence report bin-Laden is hiding there and for the extra added bonus, we have Khan not only living there, but being protected.......sounds like a great ally to me!

[Keith Hamburger]

It seems all the talking heads are saying Taliban and AQ, but in my mind the only one that really wanted her gone would be her rival in the elections.

Here are my other thoughts on this, sort of off topic, but it's how I feel. Well, let's see what we have here. We have one of America's closest allies in the Middle East, that wants to be re-elected no matter if he fires the court that decides it, and declairs Marshal Law, we have a unstable country with a nuke, we have a country where according to every intelligence report bin-Laden is hiding there and for the extra added bonus, we have Khan not only living there, but being protected.......sounds like a great ally to me!


What is happening Pakistan is pretty much par for the course for our government treating with other countries, especially third world countries that we wish to have control over. And, it doesn't matter what administration or party is in power, this is what happens when one has "entangling alliances".

And, this kind of meddling is exactly what gives our enemies power. Bin Laden has stated repeatedly that our interference in the Middle East is what motivates his actions against us. The same thing has happened in Central America and was a big part of Castro's rise to power in Cuba. This type of meddling is what led to our current situation in regards to relations with Iran. Our bringing to power and propping up of Saddam Hussein let to our current mess in Iraq.

This situation, and all the others like it, are exactly why we shouldn't be dealing with internal affairs of other countries, no matter what those in power think our "interests" are in such matters. There are no "national interests" that justify this type of destabilization of other societies and the threat that results to our country.

Can you say "blowback"?

Keith

[Fishingriver]

Bhutto had her own bodygaurds immediately surrounding her. But Musharaf was providing the security for her appearances. He didn't do too well with that. If Musharaf cancels the elections because of "civil unrest" it will speak volumes about what the motives were for her assassination.

[apdst]

No doubt Musharif was afraid of Bhutto. Did he want to kill her? Maybe. One thing for sure, AQ and The Taliban didn't want her in office.

[Truth_and_Power]

Destabilization is EXACTLY what alQ wants. This is perfect for them, a very smart move on their part if it indeed was them. No matter what evidence is offered, it casts blame on the U.S. as well, and if the U.S. protests heavily and blames al qaeda it only increases al qaeda's powerful rep.

[PatrickHenry]

CIA did it.

[DANG]

I am with you PH. I am not locked on to any particular "agency", but until I heard junior say:"The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy," said Bush, who looked tense and took no questions. .... did I even suspect our own torture and death squad diplomats of any involvement.

I am sure there will be a full and unbiased investigation by the ruling class.

[lily]

I am with you PH. I am not locked on to any particular "agency", but until I heard junior say:"The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy," said Bush, who looked tense and took no questions. .... did I even suspect our own torture and death squad diplomats of any involvement.


Two things I find really odd about all this. First is no major news station played Bush's speech. Second is this (http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=10174) didn't happen overnight.

[DANG]

Odd that Fred "I need a nap" Thompson
...just said yesterday CBS News (http://www.kgan.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.ia/2c30d8c1-www.kgan.com.shtml)

"There is no woman on the horizon that ought to be president next year, let's all agree on that."

[apdst]

First is no major news station played Bush's speech.

Fox, MSNBC and CNN posted articles on their websites.

Now, there is an unconfirmed report that AQ calimed responsibility.

I'm, leaning toward AQ involvement, but the jury is still out.

[DANG]

I am with you PH. I am not locked on to any particular "agency", but until I heard junior say:"The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy," said Bush, who looked tense and took no questions. .... did I even suspect our own torture and death squad diplomats of any involvement.


Two things I find really odd about all this. First is no major news station played Bush's speech. Second is this (http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=10174) didn't happen overnight.
I am glad my cursor went over your link by accident.

Note to admin:
<The links in this forum should be a different color, or at least underlined> :)
Thats the only diplomacy our empire builders understand... Bombs and bullets and troops.
~~~~~

If Pakistan is our BFF, how come they cant deliver the one man supposedly "responsible" for 911? OBL.
To quote our presidunce (see above quote): "cowardly act by murderous extremists"
SIX YEARS of murdering over a MILLION people, except the one who attacked us. (supposedly. The FBI denys OBL had anything to do with 911).
If bush is so adamant and knows who attacked US.... hows that manhunt going?[hr]
First is no major news station played Bush's speech.

Fox, MSNBC and CNN posted articles on their websites.

Now, there is an unconfirmed report that AQ calimed responsibility.

I'm, leaning toward AQ involvement, but the jury is still out.
I too am leaning toward Al CIAda involvement. Have a link to that "unconfirmed report that AQ calimed responsibility"?

Or, was it on the Rush Limpbone show?

[lily]

First is no major news station played Bush's speech.

Fox, MSNBC and CNN posted articles on their websites.

Now, there is an unconfirmed report that AQ calimed responsibility.

I'm, leaning toward AQ involvement, but the jury is still out.



Posting articles on their websites and airing his speech are two different things. I can't see facial expressions, nor do I need their spin on what he is saying. Every major media station played interviews from all the major candidates, ambassadors, and everyone else they could get their hands on. They all stated that Bush would make his statement at 11:00-11:30 yet not one news station felt it was important enough to actually show it live? I find this rather odd.......or they think that what he has to say is useless.

[BoogyMan]

Whats that smell? Ahh, wait, a new conspiracy theory is being baked up right here.

How about waiting until we know more before turning the conspiracy squad loose on the story?

[PatrickHenry]

Well, Boogy...SOMEBODY conspired to kill a candidate who wasn't very well protected by the regime of Pakistan.

A dictatorship that proliferated nukes, protected OBL, nurtured the Taliban and cooperates with the CIA!

Why refuse to consider alternatives to what you are instructed to think by the lying mass media?

[Osborn F. Enready]

While this is a new story, and facts are still coming in, I would not be suprised to hear at a later date (2050) that this was in some way involving the CIA and NSA.

As for what is known now, its a sad thing, I think Bhutto had a lot of support from the people of Pakistan.

I have to laugh when I hear people crying about "what would happen if Iran got a Nuke"..... Pakistan has had them for quite some time, and there isn't much difference between Iran and Pakistan.

[DANG]

....and there isn't much difference between Iran and Pakistan.
Operation
Pakistani
Liberation ....

doesnt have the marketability of:

Operation
Iranian
Liberation[hr]Excuse me but,
isn't mr bush calling anyone cowardly and murderous extremists;
a case of
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8315/potcallskettleblackwt0.png

[BoogyMan]

Well, Boogy...SOMEBODY conspired to kill a candidate who wasn't very well protected by the regime of Pakistan.

A dictatorship that proliferated nukes, protected OBL, nurtured the Taliban and cooperates with the CIA!

Why refuse to consider alternatives to what you are instructed to think by the lying mass media?


Why? Because you have practically nothing upon which to base your theories Pat, that is why. Why not wait for some clarity and more information before starting blame America first stuff?

[Labrocca]

I am going to sticky this for now. Having a person of her stature and importance in a country like Pakistan is incredible news. It's like Al Gore getting assassinated for us. This is really bad news imho and shows how volatile the world is especially the middle east.

[Labrocca]

Well, Boogy...SOMEBODY conspired to kill a candidate who wasn't very well protected by the regime of Pakistan.

A dictatorship that proliferated nukes, protected OBL, nurtured the Taliban and cooperates with the CIA!

Why refuse to consider alternatives to what you are instructed to think by the lying mass media?


He is right. We actually have a conspiracy here. To what extent and who was involved is yet unknown but no buts about it...people conspired to kill her.

This sucks but who can say they didn't see this coming?

[lawless168]

Well from what I've heard today, she had very little protection & Musharif didn’t help at all, if anything, he made it very easy for her enemies to do this .... It is a sad day

[gpruitt54]

Not to sound like a conspiracy person. But may this is why Bush had (last week, I think) already agreed to up the US presence in Pakistan.

[apdst]

Posting articles on their websites and airing his speech are two different things.

Lily,

Right after I made that post Fox news aired Bush's speech. I had logged off and was on my out, so I'm just now mentioning.

[December]

I just learned about it....
I am really shocked!..... :( :( :( :(
Poor, poor Pakistani people..... :(

Well, she was against Musharraf and Musharraf is American puppet as we all know.
She definatelly didn't want to see her country become another Afghanistan.

She was pronounced dead in hospital in Rawalpindi, the home of the Pakistan army and the same city where her father, former prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was hanged in 1979 after being deposed by a military coup.

"It is the act of those who want Pakistan to disintegrate," said Farzana Raja, a senior official from Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party. "They have finished the Bhutto family."

Across Pakistan -- a country long used to political violence and ruled by the military for more than half of its life -- friends and foes alike were stunned by the death of a woman whose family had courted tragedy across two generations.
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSHAR75111720071227


http://pakistaniat.com

[apdst]

Just for you, Lily. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYPUmDVqLI)

[BoogyMan]

Well, Boogy...SOMEBODY conspired to kill a candidate who wasn't very well protected by the regime of Pakistan.

A dictatorship that proliferated nukes, protected OBL, nurtured the Taliban and cooperates with the CIA!

Why refuse to consider alternatives to what you are instructed to think by the lying mass media?


He is right. We actually have a conspiracy here. To what extent and who was involved is yet unknown but no buts about it...people conspired to kill her.

This sucks but who can say they didn't see this coming?


The only point that is correct is that someone did conspire Lab. What I am concerned about here is the "blame America first" type of ideology. I am simply asking that the conspiracy theorists, for once, wait until there has been enough time to actually have something upon which to build their theories.

[Fishingriver]

Musharif is going to postpone the elections. Bhutto was the leading candidate to become Musharifs replacement. Sharif has been disqualified to participate as a candidate in the election by Musharif. The Pakistanis are saying that Musharif killed Bhutto. Bhutto said that members of Mushrifs government were plotting to have her assassinated. Bhutto had been highly critical of Musharif's military rule.

Western experts (anonymously) report that blah blah blah blah....

[December]

Musharif is going to postpone the elections. Bhutto was the leading candidate to become Musharifs replacement. Sharif has been disqualified to participate as a candidate in the election by Musharif. The Pakistanis are saying that Musharif killed Bhutto. Bhutto said that members of Mushrifs government were plotting to have her assassinated. Bhutto had been highly critical of Musharif's military rule.

Western experts (anonymously) report that blah blah blah blah....


Fishingriver, do you know what was her attitude towards US "war on terror"....
Was Bhutto in favor of it or not?

http://www.worldpress.org/images/20060418-india-pakistan-border.jpg

[Fishingriver]

Bhutto was opposed to extremism. So what? So is Musharif and this will only serve to keep him in power. In fact, Musharif is in the proccess of going after extremist groups in the western border regions. If anything, Al Qaeda is the perfect scapegoat for Musharif keeping military rule because of the assassination. What the Pakistani's say about this is more believable than what western experts, Big Media or Bush say. Look at their record.

[preservanation]

I haven't read the thread, or heard much news....
but I'm very, very sad.
Very sad.

She was a hope for that nation and region, snuffed out by intolerant violence.

We are truly blessed to have our elections and political process go as they do.
May we never have to suffer as some others do and may we be a positive force for Freedom and Democratic change in a world which really needs it.

Very sad...I did not know her, but I will miss her.
She seemed like a shining light which died out senselessly.[hr]May her life and death serve as a new beginning instead of an end...

[lily]

Just for you, Lily. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYPUmDVqLI)


Thanks apdst. Also the time stamp just shows me I was switching channels to the wrong ones. MSNBC and Fox.[hr]

The only point that is correct is that someone did conspire Lab. What I am concerned about here is the "blame America first" type of ideology. I am simply asking that the conspiracy theorists, for once, wait until there has been enough time to actually have something upon which to build their theories.


Yes because we all know America has never tried to assassinate anyone. It's a perfectly legitimate topic to be debating.

[preservanation]

Just for you, Lily. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYPUmDVqLI)


Thanks apdst. Also the time stamp just shows me I was switching channels to the wrong ones. MSNBC and Fox.[hr]

The only point that is correct is that someone did conspire Lab. What I am concerned about here is the "blame America first" type of ideology. I am simply asking that the conspiracy theorists, for once, wait until there has been enough time to actually have something upon which to build their theories.


Yes because we all know America has never tried to assassinate anyone. It's a perfectly legitimate topic to be debating.



If y'all want to start...I'll start.
This helps Hillary against Obama and Edwards more than anyone else.
What's to say she and her powerful hubby had nothing to do with this???
NOTHING, that's what!

Start all your nonsense now and the big P will play along.

[Alonzo]

The only point that is correct is that someone did conspire Lab. What I am concerned about here is the "blame America first" type of ideology. I am simply asking that the conspiracy theorists, for once, wait until there has been enough time to actually have something upon which to build their theories.

Ya, I thought Pat was making a joke when he went "CIA did it". Sounded like one, sadly it wasn't.

[PatrickHenry]

You mean I wasn't joking or that it isn't a joke that the CIA did it?

Or that the CIA would never do such a thing?

Or that we shouldn't joke about such things? :D

[DANG]

Bhutto (she is so beautiful here) says Omar Shiek killed Osama bin Laden at the 6:12 mark of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ

Meanwhile 2 hours ago, the disinformation campaign carrys on in full force. OBL using our media to transmit messages from the grave: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228/ap_on_re_ca/us_bin_laden_message_4

[ViolaLee]

Omar Sheik killed Osama Bin Laden????

I'm very sad about Bhutto being killed today. It's a very bad day for Pakistan. And for the rest of the world if the terrorists get their hands on those nukes.

[moses2792796]

excellent

[Alonzo]

You mean I wasn't joking or that it isn't a joke that the CIA did it?

Or that the CIA would never do such a thing?

Or that we shouldn't joke about such things? :D


That you weren't joking.

[apdst]

The attacks was carried out by a suicide bomber. Political henchmen don't committ suicide for their handlers. Religious extremists committ suicide for their beliefs.

[DANG]

Kidnapped victims of psyops mercenaries ( the victim/perpetrators' families are also in captivity) are told their families will be spared (sure they will) if they do this one deed.

They really have no choice.[hr] Religious extremists committ suicide for their beliefs.
You are dead wrong about that. Muslims go to HELL for murdering women and children.
(Unlike 'christians', supposedly)

[hr]They (Muslims) would would NEVER murder a woman... unless it was to save one (or several) of their own family members. [hr]In fact, the bomb jacket was prolly remote controlled.... it was a threat, that if he chickened out,.... his controllers would finish him and his family off. So he may as well whack his target.

These people are not stupid extremists that we cant understand.
They are just more victims of the American Empire.
But hey, who does body counts. Right?

[Pookie]

Back to the topic, yet again!
This is going to be quite difficult in days to come. Watch what happens. It may be interesting.
Purrs,
Pookie

[DANG]

Are you saying I am off topic? Read that post again Pookie. I am spot on.[hr]Wheres the photo of her assassin? You mean there isnt a camera on her EVERY second she is in public?

[PatrickHenry]

The attacks was carried out by a suicide bomber. Political henchmen don't committ suicide for their handlers. Religious extremists committ suicide for their beliefs.

CIA trains mind-controlled drones.

[Pookie]

DANG, I didn't say you were. Back off, mmrrroww! LOL. I'm just saying that back to the topic, this is going to get interesting. Anybody see the latest reports about this? Yow!
Pookie

[preservanation]

She wrote an email that suggested that the lack of security provided by Musharraf would be to blame if she was ever killed.

[Pookie]

Yup, Preserv, she did. That's why I say this is going to get interesting. I look for something to happen at her funeral.
Purrs,
Pookie

[Trish]

Bhutto's assassination was a blow to the US as well as to Pakistan. Her death will hinder our efforts in the Pakistan/Afghanistan border region in dealing with AQ and the Taleban who use the area as a safe haven from which to conduct their activities in Afghanistan. Bhutto may not have been as pro-US as Musharraf, but she was definitely anti-extremist and committed to eradicating them in Pakistan (as much as is possible). It was in the interests of the US for her to return to Pakistan in the first place, and it was in our interests for her to stay alive. Bhutto's murder hurts us and our interests. Her death is going to increase the chances that Islamic extremists come to power in Pakistan and that would not be a good thing for either Musharraf or the US. Musharraf was certainly no fan of Bhutto, but I doubt he is behind her death. He's not a stupid man. Her murder is going to cause such a splintering in the political situation in Pakistan Musharraf may well find himself completely without power.

[Fishingriver]

Snip-
A former U.S. ambassador in neighboring Afghanistan, Khalilzad had long been skeptical about Musharraf, and while in Kabul he had disagreed with then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell over whether the Pakistani leader was being helpful in the fight against the Taliban. He also warned that Pakistani intelligence was allowing the Taliban to regroup in the border areas, U.S. officials said.

Snip-
When Bhutto returned to the United States in September, Khalilzad asked for a lift on her plane from New York to Aspen, Colo., where both were giving speeches. They spent much of the five-hour plane ride strategizing, said sources familiar with the diplomacy.

Snip-
The turning point to get Musharraf on board was a September trip by Deputy Secretary of State John D. Negroponte to Islamabad. "He basically delivered a message to Musharraf that we would stand by him, but he needed a democratic facade on the government, and we thought Benazir was the right choice for that face," said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer and National Security Council staff member. "Musharraf still detested her, and he came around reluctantly as he began to recognize this fall that his position was untenable," Riedel said.

Snip-
As part of the deal, Bhutto's party agreed not to protest against Musharraf's reelection in September to his third term. In return, Musharraf agreed to lift the corruption charges against Bhutto. But Bhutto sought one particular guarantee -- that Washington would ensure Musharraf followed through on free and fair elections producing a civilian government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/27/AR2007122701481.html


Snip-
If both of the country’s primary opposition parties were out of the election, Mr. Musharraf’s party — which trailed them in recent polls — would probably win control of Parliament. If that occurred, analysts predicted, Mr. Sharif and leaders of Ms. Bhutto’s party would mount nationwide demonstrations calling for Mr. Musharraf’s ouster.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/world/asia/28assess.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin



I beleive Musharaf did this to maintian power. Of course it is already blamed on Al Qaeda and it may be that Musharaf made Al Qaeda some sort of deal to participate in her assassination. Perhaps that he (Musharaf) would not pursue them as they knew would be the case if Bhutto was elected because of her deal with the Bush administration. Musharaf feared that if free elections were held and Bhutto elected, he would be forced out. First he disqualified his other rival, Sharif, and then killed Bhutto to leave himself in a position of power. This provided the perfect excuse to cancel or stall elections because of the civil strife the assassination caused.
The Bush administration will continue to push for free elections but there is no one who could win that would benefit us. Bush will continue to support Musharaf because there is no other option. Musharaf will continue to present a facade as a willing partner in the war on terror, but he will keep his deals with the extremists to maintain a balance among factions.
What will be interesting is what happens to the elctions, and if they proceed, who ends up being the potential successor to Musharaf. If the elction is held soon, Musharafs party will likely win because of Bhutto's assassination and Sharifs disqualification.

[brien]

Here is a link on the history of the PPP. It may be enlightening to understand where Bhutto comes from in her evolution in the PPP. Also, compare the PPP with the current Military Dicatatorship with which she would have eventually shared power as PM.

http://www.ppp.org.pk/zab/forty_years.html

Forty Years of Pakistan Peoples Party
(1967-2007)

Quaid-e-Awam Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto founded Pakistan Peoples Party in the winter of 1967 as an answer to the dictatorial and anti-people policies of the military-bureaucratic-feudal nexus of power that ruled the country since its inception in 1947. The Party came into being with four cardinal principles i.e. Islam is our faith, democracy is our polity, socialism is our economy and all power to the people. Its program envisaged provision of basic human needs, i.e. Roti, Kupra aur Makkan (food, clothe and shelter) to every citizen of Pakistan. It advocated a just and fairer distribution of national wealth amongst various strata of the society and stood for democratic traditions, liberal values and welfare-oriented policies.

snip>

Today the country is again through an indirect military rule where an army chief is also running the affairs of the state as the President of Pakistan. Barring two brief eras of democratic rule, from 1971-77 and 1988-99, and with exception of three initial years 1947-51, the country has been under dictatorship for whole of her history.

The dictatorial rule for most part of the nation’s life has given birth to sectarianism, religious extremism and intolerance in an otherwise tolerant and pluralistic society of Pakistan. This has also intensified tensions amongst the federating units and the smaller provinces are drifting away from the mainstream politics because of the sense of deprivation.

snip>

There is only one silver lining in the dark clouds for Pakistan today that the Party founded by Quaid-e-Awam Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, and nurtured by the blood of several selfless political workers and leaders still remains the strongest and the largest political party of the country under the able leadership of Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto, who is poised again to bring a change for betterment in the lives of millions of deprived and under privileged people of Pakistan: a dream Quaid-e-Azam had devoted his life to; and Quaid-e-Awam had dearer than his life

This link below is found on the PPP site and defines the current regime:

http://www.ppp.org.pk/

For the non-Pakistanis, NAB is the acronym for The National Accountability Bureau. The flag ship of Musharraf. The main reason he gave for assuming power. He said that the nation had become too corrupt. NAB is composed of serving and retired army officers with unlimited powers. They are answerable to none. Present in every major city, each NAB office has a jail within its compound where prisoners are kept without any possibilities of bail. Some of them picked up from the streets, most from their beds at dawn. Several have died during interrogations…

Nice guy to support eh? No wonder a majority of the Pakistani people support the PPP. So one has to ask just why does the current American Adminsitration support Musharraf? Particularly in light of the NAB. The NAB is a real democratic organization, eh? And the Bush Administration supports Democracy in Pakistan by supporting Musharraf? Not my idea of democracy, is it yours?:unreal:

This is part of the AP story on the PPP website.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071227/ap_on_re_as/pakistan

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto was assassinated Thursday by an attacker who shot her after a campaign rally and then blew himself up. Her death stoked new chaos across the nuclear-armed nation, an important U.S. ally in the war on terrorism.

At least 20 others were killed in the attack on the rally for Jan. 8 parliamentary elections where the 54-year-old former prime minister had just spoken.

At least nine people were killed across the country in rioting that broke out in the aftermath of the assassination. In the southern port city of Karachi, where she was born, angry Bhutto supporters shot at police and burned a gas station.

At the hospital where Bhutto died, some supporters smashed glass and wailed, chanting slogans against President Pervez Musharraf, whom they blamed for not ensuring her safety. Musharraf blamed Islamic extremists for her death and said he would redouble his efforts to fight them.

"This is the work of those terrorists with whom we are engaged in war," he said in a nationally televised speech. "I have been saying that the nation faces the greatest threats from these terrorists. ... We will not rest until we eliminate these terrorists and root them out."

In the U.S., a tense looking President Bush strongly condemned the attack "by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy." White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said Bush spoke briefly by phone with Musharraf.

Musharraf convened an emergency meeting with his senior staff, where they were expected to discuss whether to postpone the elections, an official at the Interior Ministry said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.

The government announced three days of mourning for Bhutto, including the closing of schools, commercial centers and banks.

Nawaz Sharif, another former prime minister and leader of a rival opposition party, demanded Musharraf resign immediately and announced his party would boycott the upcoming election.

Pakistan will certainly be in flux over the next several months while the PPP regroups and decides which path to take in order to avenge the death of their leader. Bhutto's death will certainly galvanize the party and most likely will guarantee their restoration of power in Pakistan but perhaps not without more bloodshed. Hopefully it will spell the end of Musharraf but I doubt he will go quietly in light of his NAB connections. The Paksitanis are in for a rocky ride and the US need not be in that car.

[DANG]

Excellent post brien, thanks!

[jafar00]

And for the rest of the world if the terrorists get their hands on those nukes.


What Nukes? :shock:

[lily]

Well, I must say.......that was awful fast. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.death/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)

How did Pakistan's Bhutto die?

(CNN) -- Conflicting reports about what caused the death of former Pakistani
Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto are fueling questions about the circumstances
of her assassination.


Benazir Bhutto died Thursday after a suicide bombing at a political rally in
Rawalpindi, Pakistan.


Bhutto's political party disputed official versions of the incident,
accusing the government of lying. Video footage of Thursday's attack on
Bhutto contains a murky shot of a hand firing a pistol three times, but the
Pakistani government said Bhutto -- who was standing through her vehicle's
sunroof -- was not hit.

The latest explanation Friday by Pakistan's Interior Ministry said Bhutto,
54, died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on a piece of the
vehicle.

Immediately following the gunfire, a suicide bomber ignited explosives near
Bhutto's motorcade. Watch the video »

An Interior Ministry spokesman, Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema, said Bhutto "fell
down or perhaps ducked" and apparently hit her head on a lever connected to
the car's sunroof. Cheema added that the lever was stained with blood.

Cheema's version of events conflicts with that of the government-run news
agency Associated Press of Pakistan, which at first quoted the Interior
Ministry as saying shrapnel from the bomb blast killed Bhutto. The suicide
bomb killed more than 20 others, and at least 100 were wounded.

On Thursday, an initial report from the Interior Ministry said Bhutto died
of a gunshot wound to the neck.



Dr. Mussadiq Khan of Rawalpindi General Hospital, who treated Bhutto before
she was declared dead, said she had "a big wound" on the side of her head
"that usually occurs when something big, with a lot of speed, hits that
area."

By the time Bhutto was brought to the hospital Thursday, she "was not
breathing, she did not have a pulse," Khan said, and her eyes were not
responding to light. Doctors tried unsuccessfully to revive her by
cardiopulmonary resuscitation, he said.

At a news conference, Cheema showed the video of Bhutto in the vehicle,
standing up in the sunroof and looking out at the surrounding crowd.

Farzana Raja of Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party said the government's
explanation is "a pack of lies," and she offered another explanation. "It
was a sniper shooting," she said, also accusing the government of a "total
security lapse."

CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson, who worked in U.S. intelligence
in Pakistan during the Clinton administration, said he suspects Bhutto's
enemies are attempting to control her legacy by minimizing the attack's role
in her demise.

"They're trying to deny her a martyr's death, and in Islam, that's pretty
important," Robinson said.

Bhutto, he said, threatens to become more influential in death than she was
in life. "Her torch burns bright now forever. She's forever young; she's
forever brave, challenging against all odds the party in power and
challenging the military and Islamic extremism."

Only if Bhutto's family allows an autopsy, said Robinson, will the world
know for certain the medical reasons behind her death. The Associated Press,
quoting Cabinet sources, said Bhutto's husband, Asif Ali Zardari, refused to
permit an autopsy before she was laid to rest Friday.

The Pakistani government pointed to Baitullah Mehsud, a tribal leader from
southern Pakistan known to have ties to al-Qaeda, as a prime suspect.

One senior U.S. official told CNN there is information "... that leads us to
believe he [Mehsud] is the guy responsible."

The official said Mehsud "had been trying to get Bhutto for some time" and
described him as "one of the big players."

The Pakistani Interior Ministry also said it had "intelligence intercepts"
indicating Mehsud was behind Bhutto's assassination.

There have been no claims of responsibility for Bhutto's death on radical
Islamist Web sites that regularly post such messages from al Qaeda and other
militant groups.

Hundreds of thousands of people jammed streets Friday surrounding Bhutto's
funeral procession in Garhi-Khuda Baksh. Violence after the attack has left
at least nine people reported killed and banks, train stations and cars
torched.

Bhutto led Pakistan from 1988 to 1990 and from 1993 to 1996, but both times,
the sitting president dismissed her amid corruption allegations.[hr]Musharif had the most to gain by her death and in all the Al-Quada attacks I've ever read about, they don't shoot their victims and then blow themselves up.

[Kyi Yo]

I wasn't surprised. I had hoped her enemies would have been afraid of what is happening now in the aftermath and restrained themselves. The kind of people who did this like turmoil, they can get more of their agenda done in such times.

I believe, as do others here, that the US played a part in her assassination. Again, that's not a surprise. She wouldn't have been a puppet for the US, and that was dangerous for her.

Another leader of the People died so a US puppet could continue to rule.

[gpruitt54]

Bhutto (she is so beautiful here) says Omar Shiek killed Osama bin Laden at the 6:12 mark of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ

Meanwhile 2 hours ago, the disinformation campaign carrys on in full force. OBL using our media to transmit messages from the grave: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071228/ap_on_re_ca/us_bin_laden_message_4


What stands out to me is that David Frost did not halt the interview right then and there to clarify what Bhutto said about Ben Laden being murdered. That news, in and of itself is big enough to stop everything and concentrate on that alone. But this did not happen. What does it mean?

[moses2792796]

Link (http://www.corrupt.org/news/thoughts_on_benazir_bhutto)



As a lifelong observer of the Pakistani struggle for autonomy, my thoughts of Benazir Bhutto are brutal, honest, and accurate: she is a lackey for the selfish mass of people who want to adopt Western style reforms under the guise of "democracy" but really seek to enrich themselves materially at the expense of the spiritual and cultural life of the country.

As a Pakistani who does not want my country to follow the path of the United States into slovenly decadence, nor the Soviet Union into dogma and misery, I would prefer a traditional solution because it escapes all of these problems. Benazir Bhutto opposed such a solution and pompously insisted that her own way was "morally superior" to other ways, even though she was aware of the decay and perversity and corruption it brings.

Dear Americans, not all of us want to follow you on your path to doom. Your future is like a bag of candy, in that it is so tempting now, and will feel good for awhile, but when the candy is gone, it is an empty bag blowing in the wind and we wish we had eaten a real lunch so we have energy to do what is right. I am glad Benazir Bhutto is out of politics and, if it took her death to do that, I am glad she is dead.

Sincerely,

[Name Withheld by Request]

[Matt W]

The thing about Pakistan is that it is highly comparable with the Lebanon at the moment. Every opposition party hates each others' guts, the government is hanging on by the skin of its' teeth, and extremists can be found under any rock. Bhutto herself was no angel - perhaps whoever took out her father was aiming to finish the job? Who knows. Literally ANYONE could have done it. And I doubt we'll ever find out who.

I have to say, though, that I find the automatic linking of the CIA to the job a bit unfortunate...PH, not EVERY conspiracy under the sun has to involve those inept fools at Langley...there are other governments & other intelligence agencies, y'know? :thumbsup:

[preservanation]

The breathless eagerness by some on the left to link Bhutto's murder to Bush and to the US is disgusting and pure speculation...maybe even wishful thinking.
They are enigmas wrapped in predictability.

[jose]

A video at 20 seconds we see an auto pistol at bottom right at 24 secs we see a discharge
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/video/2007/dec/28/benazir.bhutto.gun.video

[PatrickHenry]

I have to say, though, that I find the automatic linking of the CIA to the job a bit unfortunate...PH, not EVERY conspiracy under the sun has to involve those inept fools at Langley...there are other governments & other intelligence agencies, y'know? :thumbsup:
Heh. Well, somebody was gonna say it...might as well be me!

And you wouldn't be SURPRISED if that was the case, now would you, Matt?

[PatrickHenry]

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7699

This guy says what a lot of people know:

As succinctly summarized in Jeremy Page’s article, "Who Killed Benazir Bhutto? The Main Suspects", the main suspects are

1) “Pakistani and foreign Islamist militants who saw her as a heretic and an American stooge”, and

2) the Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, a virtual branch of the CIA. Bhutto’s husband Asif Ali Zardari directly accused the ISI of being involved in the October attack.

The assassination of Bhutto has predictably been blamed on “Al-Qaeda”, without mention of fact that Al-Qaeda itself is an Anglo-American military-intelligence operation.

Page’s piece was one of the first to name the man who has now been tagged as the main suspect: Baitullah Mehsud, a purported Taliban militant fighting the Pakistani army out of Waziristan. Conflicting reports link Mehsud to “Al-Qaeda”, the Afghan Taliban, and Mullah Omar (also see here). Other analysis links him to the terrorist A.Q. Khan.

Mehsud’s profile, and the reporting of it, echoes the propaganda treatment of all post-9/11 “terrorists”. This in turn raises familiar questions about Anglo-American intelligence agency propaganda involvement. Is Mehsud connected to the ISI or the CIA? What did the ISI and the CIA know about Mehsud? More importantly, does Mehsud, or the manipulation of the propaganda surrounding him provide Bush-Cheney with a pretext for future aggression in the region?

While details on the Bhutto assassination continue to unfold, what is clear is that it was a political hit, along the lines of US agent Rafik Harriri in Lebanon. Like the highly suspicious Harriri hit, the Bhutto assassination has been depicted by corporate media as the martyring of a great messenger of western-style “democracy”. Meanwhile, the US government’s ruthless actions behind the scenes have received scant attention.

The December 28, 2007 New York Times coverage of the Bhutto assassination offers the perfect example of mainstream Orwellian media distortion that hides the truth about Bush/Cheney agenda behind blatant propaganda smoke. This piece echoes White House rhetoric proclaiming that Bush’s main objectives are to “bring democracy to the Muslim world” and “force out Islamist militants”.

In fact, the openly criminal Bush-Cheney administration has only supported and promoted the antithesis of democracy: chaos, fascism, and the installation of Anglo-American-friendly puppet regimes.

In fact, the central and consistent geostrategy of Bush-Cheney, and their elite counterparts around the world, is the continued imposition and expansion of the manufactured “war on terrorism”; the continuation of war across the Eurasian subcontinent, with events triggered by false flag operations and manufactured pretexts.

In fact, the main tools used in the “war on terrorism” remain Islamist militants, working on behalf of Anglo-American military intelligence agencies---among them, “Al-Qaeda”, and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, the ISI. Mehsud fits this the same profile.

[Fishingriver]

I posted yesterday (on this thread) and it disappeared from the board. Anybody know why that might happen?

[lily]

I posted yesterday (on this thread) and it disappeared from the board. Anybody know why that might happen?


Other than the very informative post #59?

[Fishingriver]

Lily,

Thanks for responding. No, it was post 59 that had disappeared. I went to my control panel and back to this thread and I can see it. But when I go to the front page it only shows 61 on this thread, and when I click through to view the posts it isn't there at all. It is like I am caching the old thread page, but I have refreshed and new threads are showing. I don't know what it is.

[Fishingriver]

Thanks for the help Lily! Its right now.

[lily]

Hey......you did all the work.:thumbsup:

[Matt W]

Heh. Well, somebody was gonna say it...might as well be me!

And you wouldn't be SURPRISED if that was the case, now would you, Matt?


Not at all, PH. However, like I said, Pakistan has a lot of political parties who hate each others' guts, with armed supporters. Certainly, the ISI may well be involved, but it's jumping the gun somewhat.

[lily]

Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/29/AR2007122901846.html?hpid=topnews)

Another Political Whodunit For Pakistan's Lengthy List

By Emily Wax
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, December 30, 2007; Page A25

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Dec. 29 -- Who killed Benazir Bhutto?


Gathered around television sets in homes, offices and tea shops, hundreds of
thousands of Pakistanis watched one of the most dramatic events in
Pakistan's history unfold: the assassination of Bhutto, 54, as she waved to
supporters from the sunroof of her white, bulletproof sport-utility vehicle.

But many say the most disturbing image came in the minutes after Bhutto was
killed: Live broadcasts showed workers hosing down the street to wash away
the blood and, with it, vital DNA evidence of a suicide bomber.

"It was done so matter-of-fact, like they were watering a garden," said
Fazil Javaid, an international lawyer who once worked for Bhutto. "I
thought, 'There goes the answer to all of the Pakistan people's questions
and the world's questions.' But let's look at Pakistani history. Since the
creation of Pakistan, the country's political killings are always filled
with intrigue and questions of whodunit? We may never know."


The list of political killings in Pakistan resembles the twists and turns of
a long-running soap opera.

Bhutto was killed in the same public park in the city of Rawalpindi where
another Pakistani prime minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, was gunned down in 1951.

Bhutto's father, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, was president from 1971 to 1973 and
prime minister until 1977, when he was overthrown in a coup by Gen. Mohammed
Zia ul-Haq, who ordered his execution in 1979. Zia was killed in 1988 in a
mysterious plane crash, though some diplomats say he was assassinated.

In 1985, the younger of Bhutto's two brothers, Shahnawaz, was poisoned in
the French Riviera. No one was charged with his murder. Her other brother,
Murtaza, was assassinated in 1996, a case that also remains unsolved.

Adding to the mystery surrounding Benazir Bhutto's death, on Saturday night
Dawn News aired photos taken by an amateur photographer Thursday showing two
people apparently involved in the attack. A cleanshaven suspect wearing
sunglasses is shown pointing a handgun at Bhutto from behind the suspected
bomber. The image supports theories that two people were involved in her
killing.

Bhutto, the world's first female leader of a Muslim country, narrowly
survived an assassination attempt in October during her jubilant homecoming
after years in exile. More than 140 people were killed in coordinated
bombings. Police have not resolved that case, and crowds were seen picking
through debris and walking about at the crime scene.

"Where there is no confidence in the system, there are even more
conspiracies, and Pakistan has more conspiracy theories than anywhere else,"
said Saad Haroon, a political commentator. "The sad thing is, the truth
never comes out. . . . We move on, we live. If you dwell on everything in
Pakistan, you could just wallow in grief in this country. It's become sort
of the thing we expect."

Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party has blamed President Pervez Musharraf and
his government for her death. Government officials say they have evidence
that a pro-Taliban commander, Baitullah Mehsud, orchestrated the attacks.


An Interior Ministry spokesman, retired Brig. Javed Iqbal Cheema, said
Friday that Bhutto had not been killed by bullets or shrapnel, as doctors
had said, but died after hitting her head on a sunroof lever in her SUV as
the bomb went off.

Sherry Rehman, the spokeswoman for Bhutto's party, told news services that
she had witnessed the shooting and that Cheema was wrong.

"She was even bleeding while we were bathing her for the burial," she said.
"The government is now trying to say she concussed herself, which is
ludicrous. It is really dangerous nonsense."

For many Pakistanis, the debate over what happened is being eclipsed by
fear.


At a crowded hotel in Lahore, a couple said they had traveled across the
country to attend a wedding but were unable to leave their room because of
looting. Now they were stuck in Lahore, with many flights canceled and gas
stations closed.

"What do we tell our children and the next generation of Pakistan?" lamented
Ambreen Vellani, 38, director of a nursery school, as she ate breakfast with
her 4-year-old son. "The political murder mysteries end up hurting our lives
and this country's future."[hr]I think her son as an Oxford graduate would be a great candidate.......but wasn't her husband already charged with corruption? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/30/AR2007123000223.html?hpid=topnews)

Bhutto's Son, Husband Named to Lead Her Party
Opposition Parties Announce They Will Participate in Election; Date for Vote
Still Uncertain


By Griff Witte
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, December 30, 2007; 11:58 AM

KARACHI, Pakistan, Dec. 30 -- Pakistan's largest political party on Sunday
chose to continue its dynastic traditions, anointing 19-year-old Bilawal
Bhutto Zardari as his mother's ultimate successor but picking husband Asif
Zardari to lead in the short-term following Benazir Bhutto's assassination
on Thursday.

The selections mean that the Pakistan People's Party, which casts itself as
the voice of democracy in Pakistan, will stay in family hands for a third
generation.

Asif Zardari quickly announced that the party will compete in the upcoming
parliamentary elections, although he suggested that another party leader
would probably be the candidate for prime minister.

Another opposition party responded that it also would participate in the
election. Sadiq ul-Farooq, a senior member former prime minister Nawaz
Sharif's Pakistan Muslim League-N party, told the Associated Press that
following the decision by the Pakistan People's Party, "we will also
contest."

That election, scheduled for Jan. 8, appears likely to be postponed. Tariq
Azim Khan, spokesman for the party of Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf,
said that voting may be delayed for as much as four months because of the
turmoil following Bhutto's assassination.

The election commission was expected to convene an emergency meeting Monday
to decide whether to postpone the long-awaited vote. Rioters have targeted
the commission's offices, and several have been burned to the ground.


Bhutto's son and husband spoke to reporters from the family's ancestral home
following a closed meeting of party leaders. Bilawal Zardari, who had
largely been shielded from the spotlight by his mother and has not lived in
Pakistan since he was a young boy, will lead the party when he finishes his
studies at Oxford.

Asif Zardari will run the party in the interim. He said Sunday that the
selections reflected the wishes of his wife, a former two-term prime
minister who died in a gun-and-bomb attack at a rally Thursday afternoon.
Her death sparked protests that disrupted the election campaign and have
brought life in large parts of Pakistan to a standstill.

The Bhuttos are often compared to the Kennedys because of their tendency
toward charismatic leaders who meet tragic ends. Benazir Bhutto's father,
himself a former prime minister, was hanged in 1979 by the military dictator
who overthrew him. Her two brothers died in mysterious and violent
circumstances.

The young man representing the newest generation of Bhuttos -- who added the
famous name for the first time Sunday -- noted that chairmanship of the
party is a position "that often is occupied by martyrs."

Speaking briefly but forcefully at the press conference, he said he would
strive to honor his mother's legacy. "The party's long and historic struggle
will continue with renewed vigor," he said. "My mother always said,
democracy is the best revenge."

His father called upon the United Nations to conduct a probe of Bhutto's
death.

[AlanC]

Actually I believe her son is currently attending Oxford, he has yet to graduate. Hopefully this will bring enough stability to reign in the violence.

[Fishingriver]

Here it is......Musharraf is going to postposne the election....perhaps for months. Looks like the death of Bhutto has assured Musharaf an indefinite hold on power. With all of the talk about how precarious this is for Musharaf, why isn't anyone looking at the obvious conclusion? Musharaf had Bhutto killed because she was a threat to his own hold on power. He disqualified the other threat, and now the ensuing chaos requires Musharaf to stay in power. [/quote]

Musharraf allies strongly hinted that the election would be postponed, possibly for months. "Delaying the election is very much in the cards," said Tariq Azim Khan, information secretary for the major pro-Musharraf party. "If you ask me personally if I would go ahead, I would say it would be unfair to go out and campaign in these sad times." Source- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/30/AR2007123000223.html?hpid=topnews

[lily]

Fish.....I don't think we've seen the end to this. I honestly don't think the people will stand for waiting another 4 months. I think maybe a month for them to get another candidate......although it seems they already have one.

[AmericanDreamer]

Looks like another succesful hit in order to fulfill the greater cause, who's ever cause that may be. No one can even agree on cause of death. As the world turns...

[preservanation]

This ain't no soap opera, chump.
We, as a people, lost one of us. Sorry you don't see it that way...

[Pogo]

Here it is......Musharraf is going to postposne the election....perhaps for months. Looks like the death of Bhutto has assured Musharaf an indefinite hold on power. With all of the talk about how precarious this is for Musharaf, why isn't anyone looking at the obvious conclusion? Musharaf had Bhutto killed because she was a threat to his own hold on power. He disqualified the other threat, and now the ensuing chaos requires Musharaf to stay in power.

Musharraf allies strongly hinted that the election would be postponed, possibly for months. "Delaying the election is very much in the cards," said Tariq Azim Khan, information secretary for the major pro-Musharraf party. "If you ask me personally if I would go ahead, I would say it would be unfair to go out and campaign in these sad times." Source- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/30/AR2007123000223.html?hpid=topnews
I'm sure Tariq is real choked up.

[preservanation]

pogo, we are all choked up...your inability to see the big picture is telling.
For those who want to blame America or Bush for this...should be choked out.

[Fishingriver]

Fish.....I don't think we've seen the end to this. I honestly don't think the people will stand for waiting another 4 months. I think maybe a month for them to get another candidate......although it seems they already have one.

Lily.....I don't think that will matter. If people riot because there aren't elections, the Musharaf government will use the unrest as an excuse to perpetuate marshall law and postpone them. I don't think Musharaf has any intention of relinquishing power. Someone may step in from his own party to take his place.... as dictator. But it won't change the current power structure. I think the dream of democratic elections in Pakistan died before Bhutto did. It will either be marshall law under the current regime, or chaos.
The administrations influence is much less than they think. Musharaf was using Bush for the money and to keep the US out of Pakistan. When Bush asked for elections, Musharaf had the candidate killed and the other opposition candidate disqualified. Bush has no choice but to go with the staus quo, or make war. He doesn't have the resources for the later, so he will continue down the road with Musharaf.

[preservanation]

Good point Fish.
Let us not leave nukes out of the equation...

[AmericanDreamer]

This ain't no soap opera, chump.
We, as a people, lost one of us. Sorry you don't see it that way...


I guess my humble 4 posts, compared to your 4,000 plus posts, gives you the right to call me a "Chump"?? I won't take it personal because this country gives us the right to voice our opinion. Please respect my opinion as well.

In addition, I do respect life and I do mourn the loss of life. People die everyday and that is life. Look beyond the emotional and understand the cause. Life is NOT a soap opera, but that is how the world turns.

Lots of love this New Year!!

[PatrickHenry]

AmericanDreamer, don't worry about Preserva. He's probably an ally even if he gets a bit snotty.

But here's something: http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7705

Michel Chossudovsky is the author of this piece as well as the site manager over there at Global Research. I like his views. But regardless of my enthusiasm, he MAKES SENSE!

Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in Rawalpindi, no ordinary city. Rawalpindi is a military city host to the headquarters of the Pakistani Armed Forces and Military Intelligence (ISI). Ironically Bhutto was assassinated in an urban area tightly controlled and guarded by the military police and the country's elite forces. Rawalpindi is swarming with ISI intelligence officials, which invariably infiltrate political rallies. Her assassination was not a haphazard event.

Without evidence, quoting Pakistan government sources, the Western media in chorus has highlighted the role of Al-Qaeda, while also focusing on the the possible involvement of the ISI.

What these interpretations do not mention is that the ISI continues to play a key role in overseeing Al Qaeda on behalf of US intelligence. The press reports fail to mention two important and well documented facts:

1) the ISI maintains close ties to the CIA. The ISI is virtually an appendage of the CIA.

2) Al Qaeda is a creation of the CIA. The ISI provides covert support to Al Qaeda, acting on behalf of US intelligence.

The involvement of either Al Qaeda and/or the ISI would suggest that US intelligence was cognizant and/or implicated in the assassination plot.

Professor Chossudovsky says that there is evidence that the US-led elite wants to break up and balkanize Pakistan, indeed the entire Middle East.

He notes that Lieuteneant Colonel Ralph Peters calls for redrawing the national boundaries: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg

Why? Think oil and gas...

[Fishingriver]

American Dreamer- That is interesting stuff about ISI. Here is another article McClatchy published today that talks about ISI, the elections and how important it must have been to them for Musharaf to win.

Bhutto Report: Musharraf Planned to Fix Elections
By Saeed Shah
McClatchy Newspapers

Monday 31 December 2007

Naudero Pakistan - The day she was assassinated last Thursday, Benazir Bhutto had planned to reveal new evidence alleging the involvement of Pakistan's intelligence agencies in rigging the country's upcoming elections, an aide said Monday.

Bhutto had been due to meet U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., and Rep. Patrick Kennedy, D-R.I., to hand over a report charging that the military Inter-Services Intelligence agency was planning to fix the polls in the favor of President Pervez Musharraf.

Safraz Khan Lashari, a member of the Pakistan People's Party election monitoring unit, said the report was "very sensitive" and that the party wanted to initially share it with trusted American politicians rather than the Bush administration, which is seen here as strongly backing Musharraf.

"It was compiled from sources within the (intelligence) services who were working directly with Benazir Bhutto," Lashari said, speaking Monday at Bhutto's house in her ancestral village of Naudero, where her husband and children continued to mourn her death.

The ISI had no official comment. However, an agency official, speaking only on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak on the subject, dismissed the allegations as "a lot of talk but not much substance."

Musharraf has been highly critical of those who allege that his regime is involved in electoral manipulation. "Now when they lose, they'll have a good rationale: that it is all rigged, it is all fraud," he said in November. "In Pakistan, the loser always cries."

According to Lashari, the document includes information on a "safe house" allegedly being run by the ISI in a central neighborhood of Islamabad, the alleged headquarters of the rigging operation.

It names as the head of the unit a brigadier general recently retired from the ISI, who was secretly assigned to run the rigging operation, Lashari said. It charges that he was working in tandem with the head of a civilian intelligence agency. Before her return to Pakistan, Bhutto, in a letter to Musharraf, had named the intelligence official as one of the men she accused of plotting to kill her.

Lashari said the report claimed that U.S. aid money was being used to fix the elections. Ballots stamped in favor of the Pakistan Muslim League-Q, which supports Musharraf, were to be produced by the intelligence agencies in about 100 parliamentary constituencies.

"They diverted money from aid activities. We had evidence of where they were spending the money," Lashari said.

Lashari, who formerly taught environmental economics at Britain's Cranfield University, said the effort was directed at constituencies where the result was likely to be decided by a small margin, so it wouldn't be obvious.

Bhutto was due to meet Specter and Kennedy after dinner last Thursday. She was shot as she left an election rally in Rawalpindi early that evening. Pakistan's government claims instead that she was thrown against the lever of her car's sunroof, fracturing her skull.

Source- http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/24001.html

[jafar00]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg

Why? Think oil and gas...


The only part of that plan I see working is Israel behind recognised pre 1967 borders. The rest is lunacy that would require a greater amount of genocide, war and enforced "regime change" to accomplish than we have thus far experienced in the current wave of ME imperialism.

[Fishingriver]

They covered Bhutto's murder by putting a suicide bomber at the same location with the plan of simaltaneously shooting her and blowing up the car. The bomber was there to divert attention from the ISI/Musharaf shooter. The bomber provided the perfect evidence for the government to blame the assassination on the extremists. In this case a pro-Taliban (who ISI created) tribal leader named Baitullah Mehsud. The evidence continues to point to a government cover up.

Snip-
A newly released video that was obtained by Britain's Channel 4 and broadcast Monday cast doubt on the government's claims and appeared to corroborate witnesses' stories. The footage appeared to show a gunman and a suspected suicide bomber approaching Bhutto's sport-utility vehicle. Seconds later, the video showed gunfire and Bhutto's hair and scarf being blown back just as a bomb explodes.

Snip- If a gunman were to blame, it would also raise questions as to why the government has for days insisted otherwise. Bhutto's supporters have called for an international investigation.

Snip- Moments after Bhutto was killed, workers hosed down the blood at the blast site before any evidence could be collected.


Snip- "The truth is, there really is no investigation at all," said Babar Awan, a top official in Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party who said he saw Bhutto's body after the attack and identified two clearly defined bullet wounds -- entry and exit points.

He said that the principal professor of surgery at the hospital, Muhammad Mussadiq Khan, was "extremely nervous, but eventually told me that Bhutto had died of a bullet wound."

"Why was this man so nervous?" Awan said. "He told me firsthand he was under pressure not to talk about how she died."


Source- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2007/12/31/ST2007123102506.html?hpid=topnews

[Kevin67]

If there is a gunman firing shots at her caught on pics and video, then how difficult is it to understand she was assassinated by that person and didn't hit her head on the sunroof. Maybe she did, but she was shot first.

[PatrickHenry]

I think the authorities in Pakistan backed off on that canard.

[Kevin67]

Good move by them...

[lily]

How are you going to get evidence of what happened, when you got rid of it all?

Doctors cite pressure to keep silent on Bhutto
Doctors who treated Pakistan opposition leader say records removed


updated 7:02 a.m. ET, Tues., Jan. 1, 2008
RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - Pakistani authorities have pressured the medical
personnel who tried to save Benazir Bhutto's life to remain silent about
what happened in her final hour and have removed records of her treatment
from the facility, according to doctors.

In interviews, doctors who were at Bhutto's side at Rawalpindi General
Hospital said they were under extreme pressure not to share details about
the nature of the injuries that the opposition leader suffered in an attack
here Dec. 27.

"The government took all the medical records right after Ms. Bhutto's time
of death was read out," said a visibly shaken doctor who spoke on condition
of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue. Sweating and putting
his head in his hands, he said: "Look, we have been told by the government
to stop talking. And a lot of us feel this is a disgrace."


The doctors now find themselves at the center of a political firestorm over
the circumstances of Bhutto's death. The government has said Bhutto, 54, was
killed after the force of a suicide bombing caused her head to slam against
the lever of her vehicle's sunroof. Bhutto's supporters have pointed to
video footage, including a new amateur video released Monday, as proof that
she was killed by gunfire.

Serious implications
The truth about what happened has serious implications in Pakistan. The
ability of a gunman to fire at Bhutto from close range, as alleged by her
supporters, would suggest that an assassin was able to breach government
security in a city that serves as headquarters of the Pakistani military,
bolstering her supporters' claims that the government failed to provide her
with adequate protection.

If a gunman were to blame, it would also raise questions as to why the
government has for days insisted otherwise. Bhutto's supporters have called
for an international investigation.

The government has repeatedly dismissed allegations of a coverup, and some
U.S. medical experts, when asked Monday to review an official hospital
description of her wounds, speculated that a skull fracture and not a bullet
wound killed Bhutto.

The medical personnel in Rawalpindi, meanwhile, have mostly remained quiet.

"Our doctors have become caught up in this very emotional and political
issue," said Fayyaz Ahmed Khan, the doctors' supervisor at Rawalpindi
General. "It's a terrible position for our medical professions to be in."

A newly released video that was obtained by Britain's Channel 4 and
broadcast Monday cast doubt on the government's claims and appeared to
corroborate witnesses' stories. The footage appeared to show a gunman and a
suspected suicide bomber approaching Bhutto's sport-utility vehicle. Seconds
later, the video showed gunfire and Bhutto's hair and scarf being blown back
just as a bomb explodes.

Government officials identified Baitullah Mehsud, a pro-Taliban commander in
the restive South Waziristan region, as the organizer of Bhutto's killing.
But some observers said the government has been too quick to blame the
attack on the Taliban.

Jameel Yusuf, a lead investigator in the 2002 disappearance of American
journalist Daniel Pearl in Karachi, said the Pakistani government had
blundered badly by not sealing off the crime scene. Moments after Bhutto was
killed, workers hosed down the blood at the blast site before any evidence
could be collected.

"When you're dealing with a murder of this nature, you need to have
forensics," Yusuf said.

Several witnesses say they had yet to be interviewed by police.

Kamran Nazir, 19, was badly injured by shrapnel at the rally where Bhutto
was killed. On Monday, he was at Rawalpindi General, with his father at his
bedside. His breathing was labored, and the top layer of skin on his face
was singed off. He said he was shocked that police had not questioned him.

"Why is no one asking me what happened? It's important to know the truth,"
he said as his father's eyes went wet.

"The truth is, there really is no investigation at all," said Babar Awan, a
top official in Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party who said he saw Bhutto's
body after the attack and identified two clearly defined bullet wounds --
entry and exit points.

He said that the principal professor of surgery at the hospital, Muhammad
Mussadiq Khan, was "extremely nervous, but eventually told me that Bhutto
had died of a bullet wound."



"Why was this man so nervous?" Awan said. "He told me firsthand he was under
pressure not to talk about how she died."

Reached at his home in Islamabad, Khan declined to comment, saying he worked
for a government hospital and was trying to "do my duty and remain a
doctor." In published reports in the English-language newspaper Dawn, Khan
has changed his story on multiple occasions, first speaking about bullet
wounds and later backing away from those comments.

Over the weekend, Athar Minallah, a board member at Rawalpindi General,
e-mailed journalists Bhutto's medical report. The report, which was separate
from documents that doctors say have been confiscated, describes a deep
wound in Bhutto's head that was leaking brain matter.

No 'foreign body'
No "foreign body" was found in the wound, the report says, and no exit wound
was recorded. But in an X-ray of Bhutto's skull, the doctors identified "two
to three tiny radio-densities." Minallah said in an interview that the
report suggested those were bullet fragments.

U.S. medical experts said the "radio-densities" were probably not bullets.

Thomas M. Scalea, physician in chief of the shock trauma center at the
University of Maryland Medical Center, said that while there was no evidence
of a bullet wound, he was also perplexed by how the blunt force of Bhutto's
head against an object could have caused brain damage severe enough to kill
her so quickly.

"The whole thing strikes me as very unusual," said Scalea.

Bhutto's widower and the interim leader of her party, Asif Ali Zardari, has
requested an investigation into her death by the United Nations.

President Pervez Musharraf's spokesman, retired Gen. Rashid Qureshi, said
Musharraf is "considering" an offer from the British government to assist in
an investigation. Qureshi said Bhutto's husband bore responsibility for the
controversy, because he had denied the government permission to conduct an
autopsy immediately after Bhutto's death, on the grounds that it could not
be trusted.

"The body can be exhumed now if the family allows," Qureshi said. "There's
no problem with that."

[preservanation]

No autopsy in this day and age and with this sort of geopolitical importance is a travesty.
Hit her head, what a joke.

[Fishingriver]

Today Musharaf said in his speech that he is going to allow Scottland Yard to assist in the investigation. This comes a week after the assassination with evidence destroyed and Bhutto in her grave. He is delaying the elections until February 18th. Big Media will gloss over the follow ups and what really happened to Bhutto will be overidden by whatever Big Media decides to focus us on.
The Musharaf government who we are funding and Bush calls his "number one ally in the war on terror" killed Bhutto and covered up her murder. The same day that Bhutto was killed she was scheduled to meet with Patrick Kennedy and Arlen Spector to deliver evidence that Musharaf intended on stuffing the ballot boxes and was using US aid money to fund the covert operation. She never made the meeting. Musharaf's government denied the existence of a shooter and quickly attributed her death to the suicide bomber. Big Media as usual refuses to press a Bush ally for answers to the most serious and obvious questions.
The only reason that Musharafs government would cover up the shooter was becasue he was THEIR shooter. The only way that a suicide bomber sent by a terrorist could synchronize with the shooter was if they were working together. If they are working together, we are indiredtly funding the terrorists in Pakistan. So when President Bush and his rubber stamp republican allies tell you we need another (R) as president to fight terror, remember Bhutto.

[gpruitt54]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Ralph_Peters_solution_to_Mideast.jpg

Why? Think oil and gas...


The only part of that plan I see working is Israel behind recognised pre 1967 borders. The rest is lunacy that would require a greater amount of genocide, war and enforced "regime change" to accomplish than we have thus far experienced in the current wave of ME imperialism.


What are the changes that this was, in part, the intended purpose of the NeoCons. Divide and Conquer. Africa is a prime example of how divided people are much easier to subdue, and by so doing, exploit the resources of those divided people. In these cases the resources are and will be oil.

[lily]

The same day that Bhutto was killed she was scheduled to meet with Patrick Kennedy and Arlen Spector to deliver evidence that Musharaf intended on stuffing the ballot boxes and was using US aid money to fund the covert operation. She never made the meeting.

I haven't read anything about this. Got a link so I can read it?

Thanks.:D

[Fishingriver]

Lily asked for a link - http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/24001.html

And the story. That she was delivering this information could have been the difference between stealing the elction from her and killing her.



Bhutto report: Musharraf planned to fix elections

By Saeed Shah | McClatchy Newspapers

Posted on Monday, December 31, 2007

NAUDERO, Pakistan — The day she was assassinated last Thursday, Benazir Bhutto had planned to reveal new evidence alleging the involvement of Pakistan's intelligence agencies in rigging the country's upcoming elections, an aide said Monday.

Bhutto had been due to meet U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., and Rep. Patrick Kennedy, D-R.I., to hand over a report charging that the military Inter-Services Intelligence agency was planning to fix the polls in the favor of President Pervez Musharraf.

Safraz Khan Lashari, a member of the Pakistan People's Party election monitoring unit, said the report was "very sensitive" and that the party wanted to initially share it with trusted American politicians rather than the Bush administration, which is seen here as strongly backing Musharraf.

"It was compiled from sources within the (intelligence) services who were working directly with Benazir Bhutto," Lashari said, speaking Monday at Bhutto's house in her ancestral village of Naudero, where her husband and children continued to mourn her death.

The ISI had no official comment. However, an agency official, speaking only on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak on the subject, dismissed the allegations as "a lot of talk but not much substance."

Musharraf has been highly critical of those who allege that his regime is involved in electoral manipulation. "Now when they lose, they'll have a good rationale: that it is all rigged, it is all fraud," he said in November. "In Pakistan, the loser always cries."

According to Lashari, the document includes information on a "safe house" allegedly being run by the ISI in a central neighborhood of Islamabad, the alleged headquarters of the rigging operation.

It names as the head of the unit a brigadier general recently retired from the ISI, who was secretly assigned to run the rigging operation, Lashari said. It charges that he was working in tandem with the head of a civilian intelligence agency. Before her return to Pakistan, Bhutto, in a letter to Musharraf, had named the intelligence official as one of the men she accused of plotting to kill her.

Lashari said the report claimed that U.S. aid money was being used to fix the elections. Ballots stamped in favor of the Pakistan Muslim League-Q, which supports Musharraf, were to be produced by the intelligence agencies in about 100 parliamentary constituencies.

"They diverted money from aid activities. We had evidence of where they were spending the money," Lashari said.

Lashari, who formerly taught environmental economics at Britain's Cranfield University, said the effort was directed at constituencies where the result was likely to be decided by a small margin, so it wouldn't be obvious.

Bhutto was due to meet Specter and Kennedy after dinner last Thursday. She was shot as she left an election rally in Rawalpindi early that evening. Pakistan's government claims instead that she was thrown against the lever of her car's sunroof, fracturing her skull.

(Shah is a McClatchy special correspondent.)

McClatchy Newspapers 2007

[Fishingriver]

Two weeks later....the Washington Post finally reports that Bhutto was meeting with Kennedy and Specter to hand over the evidence that Musharaf was fixing the elections....the day they killed her.

Two weeks later and there is no follow up on this in the entire 4 page article they published today. No follow up on the contents of the packet she was carrying to them, no follow up Q and A with Kennedy or Specter, no phone calls to the election officials...its just another fleeting detail in a death that points to Musharaf being in cahoots with the extremists. WTF is big media doing?

snip- "On the day she was killed, Bhutto was pressing ahead on two main fronts. The first was to get the message out that she believed President Pervez Musharraf's allies planned to rig the elections scheduled for Jan. 8. On the agenda for the day was a meeting with election observers from the European Union and another with two U.S. lawmakers -- Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) and Rep. Patrick J. Kennedy (D-R.I.). At the latter meeting, scheduled for the evening, she intended to hand over a dossier of evidence that she said supported claims her party had been making for weeks that the elections would be fixed by means of ghost polling stations, voter intimidation and other irregularities."

The article- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/15/AR2008011503304.html?nav=hcmodule

[bishop]

do we still deem this thread to be "important"?