The Fall of Athens

[Athena]

I know the response is coming, "If they were so great and charitable, why did they allow slavery?" Athens wasn't quit the democracy you suggest it was. If their democracy was so great, how come as soon as Pericles wasn't there to lead the people, because he led them not the other way around, they immediately fell into disarry, fell prey to a demagogue tyrant Cleon, and were ultimately defeated by Sparta, bringing an end to their prosperity? The only reason Pericles isn't seen as a demagogue and a tyrant was because he led the people in the right direction. But in terms of democracy by the people, numerous times the people voted to do stupid things and he superceded them because he thought he knew better. The fact that he was right is irrelevant to the fact that he ultimately took the power away from the people in order to do the right thing.

Our US history is not so different from Athens democracy which lasted about 200 years. About the same amount of time of the US democracy.
Why does this happen? Well all civilizations rise and fall. Some just do it faster than others.

Athens wealth and power, like the US wealth and power begins with war.
Their defense of others, and then the supply of others, begins with war, and this is what gives them wealth and power, and once they have they must defend it in not so nice ways. It what put tyrants in power, because these men are most needed in times of war, and once they get into the seats of power, well- they have power and you can't get them out of power easily. To maintian their power, they must keep the country prepared for war, and from time to time must engage in war to justify being in power. Frequently the people who are attacked or not a military threat to the attackers, but they do so for economic reasons, or just to display their power. In the US, the presidents popularity goes up every time it completes a successful military action against little countries which can not possibly be a military threat. Athens did the same thing. They have the might so they use it to benefit their own nation and justify their positons of power. Both Athens and the US have done this in about the same amount of time.

As we can see with the US today, this tends to cause other countries concern, and when become fearful they begin accumulating weapons, and looking for allies to oppose this threat.

The role religion plays in this is very important! Billy Grahams holiday show was a perfect example of how war is good for religion and religion is good for war. He did such an emotionally compelling show about how good family men are compeled by God to serve in Iraq, I almost inlisted and I am niether Christian nor in favor of the war.

The Public Broadcasting Station is doing an excellent series of shows about art and civilization. Historically when people are threatened by the advances of another people, or economic decline, or both, their beliefs become even stronger. Their art work begins expressing thoughts of heaven and hell, if they are Christian or not. The portrayal of death in art is both frightening and comforting. Ususally these are different artistic expressions of death, but Jesus on the cross is both frightening because of the agonizing death, and comforting because of the promise of heaven.

It was during these hard times, that Socrates was ordered to drink the hemlock. His tolerant democracy which encouraged asking the impossible questions and daring to answer them, became intolerant. I hope I have said this politically correctly. I would really hate the Homeland Security disappearing me for questioning, as citiznes of Germany could be arrested and questioned. Under our present state of fear, we have given our government the power to do this. We are what we stood against, and Christianity is not protecting us from this, but is supporting it. We must protect ourselves from evil. We can't do this with reason, but must do it with faith! Our emotions are not reasonable, and are far more compelling than reason. What happened to Athens is happening to the US today. 200 hundred years, only 200 hundred years.

[kanyon40]

Simply put, read all the quotes I attached in our other thread. The founding fathers believed firmly that for this democracy to last and prosper, Christian values were required. Some even argued to the point that they felt it should be illegal that a non-Christian should govern because they wouldn't be governed by the personal morality of the Christian faith, and thus, tyranny and oppression would begin again. (I won't repost the quotes here, but they are under the "That for which we stand" thread.

Understand that I am not trying to say that we all need to become Christians. I am just pointing out the profound positive effect that the Christian worldview had on the formation of this nation. And the predictions of the founders has held true... the more we have left our Christian roots as a nation, the more divided the nation has become and the more unstable our democracy seems.

[kanyon40]

BTW, PBS is not an objective or trustworthy source of information on civilization or religion. They had a "documentary" on Islam. It was full of lies and was total propaganda. It gave Islam (founded in the 7th century) credit for just about all of the architectural and technological advances of the middle ages. According to PBS, they are responsible for inventing paper (though that was the Chinese), the were the first to develop a sewage system (though that was the Romans), and in the are of architecture, they are responsible for introducing us to the stability of the arch when making large structures (which was, again, the Romans).

These are just a few examples. They also whitewashed the violent origins of Islam by saying (paraphrasing), "Ya, Mohammed took up the sword and forcibly converted all of the surrounding towns; and yes, he often killed even the women and children in those towns; but that is what every civilization does." What a load of crap. First of all, it isn't what Rome did. Rome allowed other provinces to maintain total autonomy, including religion, as long as they stayed in line, paid taxes, and didn't mind the presence of Roman soldiers. The Persian empire did the same thing. And in modern times, America is known for not killing everyone in the country to win a war, but trying to implement the foundations of democracy so the people can experience their own freedom (such as in Afghanistan).

My point is that, while PBS might do some good things, it certainly isn't true that they are objective nor accurate in much of what they do. And it is clear that they have more of a left-leaning agenda. So I will take anything they say with a very large grain of salt.

[Athena]

Simply put, read all the quotes I attached in our other thread.Â*Â*The founding fathers believed firmly that for this democracy to last and prosper, Christian values were required.Â*Â*Some even argued to the point that they felt it should be illegal that a non-Christian should govern because they wouldn't be governed by the personal morality of the Christian faith, and thus, tyranny and oppression would begin again.Â*Â*(I won't repost the quotes here, but they are under the "That for which we stand" thread.

Understand that I am not trying to say that we all need to become Christians.Â*Â*I am just pointing out the profound positive effect that the Christian worldview had on the formation of this nation.Â*Â*And the predictions of the founders has held true... the more we have left our Christian roots as a nation, the more divided the nation has become and the more unstable our democracy seems.Â*Â*


What does the bible teach about democracy?Â*Â*

We stopped teaching for democracy when replaced our liberal education with education for technology in 1958, and the US is now what it defended itself against.Â*Â*It defended itself against the Christian Rupublic of Germany.Â*Â*Democracy does not come from Christianity, and if Christian people are not educated for democracy they manifest that which we defended our democracy against, not the democracy our fathers literate in Greek and Roman classics gave us.Â*Â*

I don't care what you say about Hitler, Bush was a member of the Cross and Bones when in college and practiced some pagan stuff, and so did the Mason who were very influential in developing our democracy.Â*Â*A lot of that so called "paganism" is better for democracy than religion.Â*Â*Think of the Muslims.Â*Â*The majority of Muslims are very peaceful and reverent people.Â*Â*But what makes news is the backward and fanatic Muslims who want to protect the ways of the past, and are being violent.Â*Â*What makes Christians different from each other and the past, and what makes Muslims different from each other, is the culture in which these religious people live.Â*Â*The culture of the US came from Athens.Â*Â*Germany under the influence of Prussia has been the Sparta of the modern world.
Both nations are dominated by Christians.Â*Â*

The "load of crap" as you so delicately put it, comes from Judaism and its war God, and the idea the God promised them land and told to slaughter the people already on it. If you have a problem with killing people for religious reasons, take it up with the Hebrews and writers of the bible, and those who insist it the word of God. How can you be so prejudice, you fault only one religious group, and criticise those who do a show that is truthful? The problem begins with the idea that any people can be God's favorite, or anyone has a book that is unquestionablely the word of God. There is not your God and my God. There is one God and many different understandings of this God, and there are no, God's favorite people, and there is blood on Jewish, Christian and Muslims hands. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and if you speak of history, you might checks your facts first.

[Athena]

BTW, PBS is not an objective or trustworthy source of information on civilization or religion.Â*Â*They had a "documentary" on Islam.Â*Â*It was full of lies and was total propaganda.Â*Â*It gave Islam (founded in the 7th century) credit for just about all of the architectural and technological advances of the middle ages.Â*Â*According to PBS, they are responsible for inventing paper (though that was the Chinese), the were the first to develop a sewage system (though that was the Romans), and in the are of architecture, they are responsible for introducing us to the stability of the arch when making large structures (which was, again, the Romans).Â*Â*

These are just a few examples.Â*Â*They also whitewashed the violent origins of Islam by saying (paraphrasing), "Ya, Mohammed took up the sword and forcibly converted all of the surrounding towns; and yes, he often killed even the women and children in those towns; but that is what every civilization does."Â*Â*What a load of crap.Â*Â*First of all, it isn't what Rome did.Â*Â*Rome allowed other provinces to maintain total autonomy, including religion, as long as they stayed in line, paid taxes, and didn't mind the presence of Roman soldiers.Â*Â*The Persian empire did the same thing.Â*Â*And in modern times, America is known for not killing everyone in the country to win a war, but trying to implement the foundations of democracy so the people can experience their own freedom (such as in Afghanistan).Â*Â*

My point is that, while PBS might do some good things, it certainly isn't true that they are objective nor accurate in much of what they do.Â*Â*And it is clear that they have more of a left-leaning agenda.Â*Â*So I will take anything they say with a very large grain of salt.


It is a good thing I don't need my mouth to type in these words, because my jaw dropped to the floor when I read what you said.Â*Â*A discussion of Islam does not belong in this thread, and perhaps we should start one, but you sure seem poorly informed.Â*

I do not want to come down hard on you, but you have put in a position of where I must defend PBS and Muslims. These discussions are not just "fun" when people are being killed because of ignorance and a dispicable sense of superiority.

Islam was very advanced, because it built upon the civilizations that had gone before, while Christian Europe, barely touched by earlier civilizations, was still barbaric.Â*Â*If you want to refute this, you best do more than call people liars.Â*Â*You best produce some proof.Â*

I am shocked by the apparent limits of your knowledge while present yourself as a learned person.Â*Â*You really went too far this time, calling PBS liars, when it is you who does not know truth.Â*Â*You must either be very young, or have maintained a very restricted life confined to those who also know very little of the world.Â*Â*I so want to keep this fun, but calling knowledgeable people liars when it is yourself who doesn't know truth, is just going toooo far.Â*Â*It makes me think you are too young to know any better.Â*Â*

[kanyon40]

I never said Islam wasn't advanced. In fact, the fact that it built upon the knowledge of other civilizations is EXACTLY what I said. PBS gave them credit for inventing that which they simply got from other civilizations that preceded them. I never said they didn't make improvements on them. I said they didn't invent them as PBS said. So for one with such knowledge as yourself, you still stand incorrect, amazingly enough.

As for the post on Islam... it wasn't a post on Islam. It was a response to you citing PBS as a credible resource. I simply used the story they did on Islam as an example. They completely gave Islam credit for pretty much every major advancement- things which they weren't responsible for (which are indisputable facts, regardless of what you say). Rome had a sewer system before Islam existed. It is a lie, flat out, to attribute Islam with being who invented it. The point being, PBS has an agenda. They aren't objective. They don't give factual information. And the story on Islam was an example of it. Since YOU referenced PBS first, not me, then my response about them is wholly within the scope of the thread.

I am also shocked by the limits of your knowledge. You assume that you are right about everything. You hate Christians sooooo much that you can't admit that Christians are responsible for one good thing. You think that bashing Christianity is true scholarship, yet you even dispute the founders of our nation about their own stated basis for the democracy in which we live. You would tell George Washington that he didn't base our democracy on Christian principles, even when he says he absolutely did. I wonder who is the one who is without knowledge. As long as you hold the "as long as it bashes Christians it is true" perspective, you will never have anywhere near the knowledge you claim to. Your grasp of history is not only biased, but shallow and revisionist. Your understanding of democracy doesn't exceed the 3rd century BC. And you don't seem to know the definition of the word worldview. If you knew what a worldview was, you would realize that much of your arguments are not only rediculously uninformed, but flat out wrong.

If I am too young to have your kind of knowledge, then I pray I never get old.

By the way, your hatred of religion has caused the same kind of violence that my religion has caused. Ever heard of the French Revolution? It was so damn bloody that heads were being cut off and no one even knew why anymore.

[kanyon40]

I once thought you were intelligent enough, and fun enough to have a conversation with, but since you already have all the answers, and despite all the evidence, when you are wrong, all you can do is say that I know nothing, I have come to the realization that you are so totally blinded by your hatred for Christianity that I just can't in good faith even carry on conversations with you.

Oddly, I haven't made a habit of attacking you as you have me. I have simply laid out evidence and even historical quotes to support them. All I can get in return is told I know nothing. That is such a strong intellectual argument on your part that I will just let it end there for the sake of my own soul.

[Athena]

I once thought you were intelligent enough, and fun enough to have a conversation with, but since you already have all the answers, and despite all the evidence, when you are wrong, all you can do is say that I know nothing, I have come to the realization that you are so totally blinded by your hatred for Christianity that I just can't in good faith even carry on conversations with you.Â*Â*Â*Â*

Oddly, I haven't made a habit of attacking you as you have me.Â*Â*I have simply laid out evidence and even historical quotes to support them.Â*Â*All I can get in return is told I know nothing.Â*Â*That is such a strong intellectual argument on your part that I will just let it end there for the sake of my own soul.


There were several very important Islamic inventions.Â*Â*The problem with Christians is they are like you.Â*Â*Without knowledge of history and the rest of the world, they believe themselves superior.Â*Â*I am not blind to this opinion, but Christians like you earn it.Â*Â*Go to this site and then defend your reasoning of saying PBS are liars.

:|: Muslim Inventions and Inventors :|:The Astrolobe is perhaps the most famous of 'Islamic inventions'. Primitive astrolobes were developed by the Greeks, but the refinements made by the Muslim ...
www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/muslim_inventors.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

This thread is about the fall of Athens. You attacked the good of Athens democracy by speaking of what happened in the last days, as though the fall of Athens explained the glory of its democracy, and now I present the arguement to what you said, and you turned this into an expression of your ignorance of Islamic achievements as well. If you want to discuss Islam, start a thread for this. People once thought Athens was a race of geniuses because of what they achieved. They were the Mother of Western civilizations and Father of Sceince and Parent of democracy. Everything we have builds upon what they achieved, especially democracy.

The bible like all holy books has nice things to say about how to treat others, but not one line explaining democracy. There is no way a concept of one arbitary God can evolve into a concept of democracy. If you want to argue this point, start a thread for this purpose. In this thread, do you have anything to say about the fall of Athens? Will you graciously conceed your attacks on Athens democracy were unjust, because your attacks are based on the last days, and did not take into consideration the achievements of Athens, as you have also boldly denied the achievents of Islam, and out of your ignorance called PBS liars. Again, I will say you must be very young to be making these errors repeadtedly and still some how thinking you are winning these arguements. If you can get what is wrong with what you have been doing, that is what many Christians do that offend others, then you have a chance of becoming a good preacher.