PDA

View Full Version : The real meaning of "sustainable"


Truth_and_Power
12-12-2007, 03:49 PM
I was thinking about what the world "sustainable" really means, byproduct of reading science fiction novels lately. It means a practice that can be continued ad infinitum. Now removing the greatest extreme of "oh well when the sun expands to a red giant.." how does this word apply to current industrialized society?

The majority of our practices are unsustainable. In other words, eventually we are going to run out of our current energy sources, eventually the sea is going to run out of food, eventually we are not going to be able to feed the world's expanding populations (even as well as we do now). Right now our entire society is based on the idea that improving technology will save us. Either that or the world will end due to nuclear war or religion or both! So we essentially have two camps: The technologists and the fatalists. Everone else is just not paying attention, they don't get a camp.

Either way it requires a real extensive amount of faith. To believe that god is going to end the world and take everyone away to happy land.. well do I need to explain why that requires a lot of faith? There's no real hard evidence to support it, you just have to believe it.

To believe that technology will continue to support our growing society in ever-more efficient ways, continually improving before the current methods falter and drop us in an era of freefall & famine is another great leap of faith. What if nothing better & more efficient than the current paradigm of oil/coal/gas/fission is developed before those methods run out? How long do we really have, 100 years? If it takes 150 years to develop a new energy source, society could collapse and destroy the effort before it is complete. It is not just a faith that technology will eventually triumph, it is a faith that technology will triumph in time.

And what happens when the seas run out of food for us to pillage? The resources of the worlds oceans are steadily diminishing. 20 years ago no one was selling orange roughy, it was a trash fish thrown back. Now it's sold regularly in restaurants and fish markets -- and not just to the poor. All the natural fish hatcheries along the coasts of the world are being developed into places for humans. Between that and our need to feed ourselves from its bounty, the ocean is dying. And the leading source of animal protein in the human diet globally is from underwater.

Even if our population were holding steady our current methods still would not be sustainable. But that is not the case. The population continues to grow and could increase 25% between now and 2030. And again. And again. The world's population is current pegged at 6.6 billion. At that rate by 2100 we could have a population of 13 billion or more. So we need double the energy, double the food, and that's assuming our consumption does not grow. Does anyone think the people of africa are going to keep living like they are presently as their countries develop? What about asia? The majority of the world's population has yet to "develop".

And yet the great fear for the next 100 years is supposed to be global warming? Based on the problems above a little flooded coastland and more intense hurricanes are the least of our problems. And the next great shortage is going to be fresh water, which also ties into agriculture and thus the food problem. We as a species need to start thinking logically about the future. If we are going to place our faith in technology saving us in 100 years, don't you think we should take it more seriously? Right now technology is something that government chips in to but which is largely driven by private industry. This means that the technology that gets the focus is the technology that rich people are willing to pay for. So we spend our technology dollars on anti-depressants, stem cells, cooler more curvy car bodies, marketing strategies, and last but not least better fabrics for making your fat ass look healthy. How is any of that stuff going to save us? We need to stop worrying about looking good, and stop worrying about living past 70. We need to worry about the next generations and what kind of world they will have left.

The clock is ticking, will modern society fail in 100 years?

Scorpion
12-12-2007, 04:22 PM
I'd like to comment about the sustainability of the oceans. With properly administered mangement of world population growth and the marine environment I believe that the oceans are sustainable resources.

Truth_and_Power
12-12-2007, 04:48 PM
I'd like to comment about the sustainability of the oceans. With properly administered mangement of world population growth and the marine environment I believe that the oceans are sustainable resources.


Okay well when you figure out a good way to reduce the world's population by 25% and hold it steady, bulldoze coastal human habitats to replace with the marshlands we filled in, and police the amount of seafood pulled out of the world's ocean, let me know. Until then it's a completely unsustainable resource. The changes that are needed to return the oceans to health are so dramatic that even at our current population levels it would require purposely creating a major global famine.

Scorpion
12-12-2007, 06:23 PM
I'd like to comment about the sustainability of the oceans. With properly administered mangement of world population growth and the marine environment I believe that the oceans are sustainable resources.


Okay well when you figure out a good way to reduce the world's population by 25% and hold it steady, bulldoze coastal human habitats to replace with the marshlands we filled in, and police the amount of seafood pulled out of the world's ocean, let me know. Until then it's a completely unsustainable resource. The changes that are needed to return the oceans to health are so dramatic that even at our current population levels it would require purposely creating a major global famine.


I never said that it would be easy, just possible to return the oceans to sustainable status. Money, time, proper management and international cooperation would be essential to success. It certainly would be worth the effort.

The alternative is to assume defeat without making any reasonable effort to rectify the problem, and wait for the inevitable.

Truth_and_Power
12-12-2007, 06:43 PM
I'd like to comment about the sustainability of the oceans. With properly administered mangement of world population growth and the marine environment I believe that the oceans are sustainable resources.


Okay well when you figure out a good way to reduce the world's population by 25% and hold it steady, bulldoze coastal human habitats to replace with the marshlands we filled in, and police the amount of seafood pulled out of the world's ocean, let me know. Until then it's a completely unsustainable resource. The changes that are needed to return the oceans to health are so dramatic that even at our current population levels it would require purposely creating a major global famine.


I never said that it would be easy, just possible to return the oceans to sustainable status. Money, time, proper management and international cooperation would be essential to success. It certainly would be worth the effort.

The alternative is to assume defeat without making any reasonable effort to rectify the problem, and wait for the inevitable.


Well that is what we are doing now and as far as it being an issue that people are willing to devote significant resources to, it's not even on the radar. The US continues to bulldoze wetlands and overfish.

Scorpion
12-12-2007, 06:56 PM
I'd like to comment about the sustainability of the oceans. With properly administered mangement of world population growth and the marine environment I believe that the oceans are sustainable resources.


Okay well when you figure out a good way to reduce the world's population by 25% and hold it steady, bulldoze coastal human habitats to replace with the marshlands we filled in, and police the amount of seafood pulled out of the world's ocean, let me know. Until then it's a completely unsustainable resource. The changes that are needed to return the oceans to health are so dramatic that even at our current population levels it would require purposely creating a major global famine.


I never said that it would be easy, just possible to return the oceans to sustainable status. Money, time, proper management and international cooperation would be essential to success. It certainly would be worth the effort.

The alternative is to assume defeat without making any reasonable effort to rectify the problem, and wait for the inevitable.


Well that is what we are doing now and as far as it being an issue that people are willing to devote significant resources to, it's not even on the radar. The US continues to bulldoze wetlands and overfish.


My point exactly. There are reasonable and available solutions to the problem if we choose to make use of them. We as a society have to decide if we want to address the issue of sustainable ocean resources or sit back wringing our hands and only giving lip service and token attention to the problems.

PatrickHenry
12-12-2007, 06:58 PM
I thought this thread would be about the term "sustainable," not the oceans.

I agree that present practices will lead to depletion of the oceans as a food source. And some of the proposed technologies for mining ocean resources could do far worse damage than overfishing...

But the term, "sustainable" is worth a look itsef, is it not?

To many conspiracy theorists, the term is fraught with the meaning of a tyrannous grab by state power to force out individual liberty for the "greater good."

But the greater good is also a loaded term. As it now stands, the greater good is not for people as a whole, but for the rich and powerful...

Sustainability could be the means of a globalist takeover...

Truth_and_Power
12-12-2007, 07:38 PM
It's not just about the oceans patrick. It's about the foundations of society as a whole. I just thought that energy, food, and population growth were the three biggest examples of how our society is not sustainable.

As I see it society as a whole is headed for a cliff, a cliff that will make debate about whether putin is bad or bush is bad or whatever seem trivial. Global warming, church is schools, abortion, balancing the budget, the iraq war.. all trivial compared to the overall collapse of society.

If you're faced with the starvation of 8-10 BILLION people and the return of society to the technological state found in the 1500's (AD or BC your choice) versus a global state where many liberties are gone, which would you choose?

Looking at the big picture now, I do not see a free society addressing these problems in a meaningful and urgent way.

PatrickHenry
12-12-2007, 08:21 PM
If you're faced with the starvation of 8-10 BILLION people and the return of society to the technological state found in the 1500's (AD or BC your choice) versus a global state where many liberties are gone, which would you choose?

Heh...You know what Patrick says..."give me liberty..."

And there is some evidence that the globalists desire to exterminate 80% of the world's population so that they can have it be "sustainable" for THEIR descendants...

Scorpion
12-12-2007, 11:04 PM
Looking at the big picture now, I do not see a free society addressing these problems in a meaningful and urgent way.


I absolutely agree T&P. Society needs to address these issues or prepare for a final disaster. We are obligated to provide global stewardship to insure the welfare of future generations.

Fortunately for me, I'll be ashes when the coming global holocaust occurs.

moses2792796
12-13-2007, 01:22 AM
If humans don't fix their population crisis lack of food and water, along with natural disasters caused by pollution will take care of it. We could simply implement birth control policies and take care of the problem without the need to set back civilisation centuries and cause many horrible deaths, but that would mean giving up a few freedoms, and that is obviously fascist, so I guess we'll just have to wait until nature kicks our ass, or if Clay is telling the truth people will start only having one child out of choice because self-interests really do align themselves with the whole...lol

Truth_and_Power
12-13-2007, 02:39 PM
self-interests really do align themselves with the whole...lol


Which is why the police force has nothing to do, the irs audits no one, bribery is non-existant... oh god I'm agreeing with moses someone shoot me now.

moses2792796
12-14-2007, 03:51 AM
My pleasure :)

Pookie
12-14-2007, 04:17 AM
I only had one kid and my self was interested in never having to go through that pain in the ---- again.
Purrs,
Pookie

Truth_and_Power
03-20-2008, 01:52 PM
Sustainable? LOL

You want to know what part of the equation you leave out of your doom-n-gloom scenario Truth_and_Power? Human ingenuity.


Like I said in the OP, faith in technology is one camp. But is that faith based in reality?