Israel moves into Gaza on eve of peace talks

[lily]

Awesome timing!! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22194845/):rolleyes:

Israel moves into Gaza on eve of peace talks

KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip - Israeli tanks and bulldozers backed by attack
aircraft moved into the southern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing five
militants in the widest operation in the territory since Islamic Hamas
forces wrested control in June. Another died in an airstrike in northern
Gaza.

The violence took place on the eve of the first formal peace talks between
Israel and the Palestinians since early 2001. The Israeli military described
it as a routine operation "against the terror infrastructure" in Gaza.

But the scene on the ground — bodies lying amid the rubble of a destroyed
building, Israeli tanks pushing deep into Palestinian territory,
schoolchildren scurrying for cover — looked anything but routine.
Palestinian officials accused Israel of trying to sabotage the peace talks.



Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and
ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar
attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist
group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

At the same time, Israel has been pursuing a peace agreement with the rival
Palestinian government of President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.

In Tuesday's operation, tanks and bulldozers pushed about a mile into
southern Gaza, on the main road between the towns of Khan Younis and Rafah,
and deployed over a 2.5-mile stretch of territory.

Residents and Hamas security forces said at least 30 tanks and bulldozers
took part in the operation, but the military said 10 tanks were sent in.

Multistory building targeted
Among Israel's targets was a multistory building that suffered heavy damage.
Amid the rubble, at least two militants lay dead, including one man whose
body was torn in half by a blast. As rescuers pulled the bodies away, two
Israeli shells struck the building seconds apart, sending people scrambling
for cover. The body of a third man lay motionless after the blast.

The incident was filmed by Associated Press Television News. An AP cameraman
and several other journalists at the scene suffered minor injuries and
shock.




The Islamic Jihad group said an Israeli tank shell killed three of its
fighters, and the smaller Popular Resistance Committees said a member died
in an airstrike. Hospital officials confirmed the deaths.

Schoolchildren ran through the streets of Khan Younis, let out early from
school so they could take refuge in their homes.

Militants carrying land mines and other weapons dodged among houses and
maneuvered behind the tanks to fire at troops. Others took cover behind
trees or covered themselves in leaves to camouflage themselves in open
farmlands.

Residents and Hamas security forces said at least 30 tanks and bulldozers
took part in the operation, but the military said 10 tanks were sent in.

Focus on rocket-launching area
The operation focused on an area that is a main launching ground for rocket
and mortar assaults on army bases and the Israeli-controlled Sufa crossing
into Gaza. More than 15 militants have been killed in the area in recent
Israeli airstrikes.

Soldiers took over the rooftops of several homes at the onset of the
operation, which began around dawn, and detained more than 60 people in
house-to-house raids, residents said. The Israeli military said they were
taken into custody for questioning.

An Israeli tank was smoldering after it was hit by a Palestinian grenade.
Four soldiers inside were slightly wounded, the military said.

The gunfire kept frightened motorists away from the Khan Younis-Rafah road,
which was blocked at one section by an Israeli tank. Troops also demolished
a gas station on the road.

"They believe that such operations will harm the resistance and weaken it,
but they are mistaken," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

Although Israel has warned that a major operation against Gaza militants was
in the offing, it has said now is not the time for such action. The army
said Tuesday's incursion was nothing out of the ordinary.

In other fighting, Israel carried out two airstrikes early Tuesday against
armed Palestinians who approached troops in northern Gaza, the military
said. The military said it identified hitting two militants. Palestinian
officials said one was killed.

Formal peace talks set to begin
The violence came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert pledged to
"forge a historic path" toward a final accord with Abbas' moderate West Bank
Palestinian government. On Wednesday, the two sides are to launch their
first formal peace talks in seven years at the historic King David Hotel in
Jerusalem.

Olmert and Abbas hope to wrap up a deal next year, but Olmert has warned
that Israel cannot implement any agreement until Abbas regains control of
Gaza and reins in militants there and in the West Bank.

Abbas' spokesman, Nabil Abu Rdeneh, called for the international community
to intervene to end the latest Israeli incursion in Gaza. "The Israeli
policy of escalation aims to sabotage and place obstacles before the
negotiations even before they start," he said.

Also casting a pall over talks is an Israeli plan to expand a Jewish
neighborhood in east Jerusalem.

Israel captured the eastern sector of the city in the 1967 Mideast war, and
the Palestinians consider any construction there to be a violation of
Israel's commitment to the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, which requires
Israel to halt all settlement construction.

Israel says the road map's freeze on settlement construction does not apply
to east Jerusalem, which Israel annexed in 1967. The Palestinians claim east
Jerusalem as their capital.

Palestinian officials told The Associated Press that Palestinian negotiators
would not be prepared to discuss anything in the talks except settlement
construction until Israel declares it will halt all settlement expansion.

[Pookie]

Oh, great timing. What is wrong with these people? Let's see how this affects the talks -- I bet it will, and not for the better, either.
Purrs,
Pookie

[jafar00]

Yeah way to go. What better way to make the other side open up and consider making concessions than to bomb them?
At the same time they cut power and fuel to the Gaza Strip, built a load more illegal settlements in the West Bank and shot some farmers trying to stop their fields being converted from Palestine to Israel.
They sure know how to make peace talks work these Israelis.

[Truth_and_Power]

Yeah way to go. What better way to make the other side open up and consider making concessions than to bomb them?
At the same time they cut power and fuel to the Gaza Strip, built a load more illegal settlements in the West Bank and shot some farmers trying to stop their fields being converted from Palestine to Israel.
They sure know how to make peace talks work these Israelis.


It was a race to see who could derail the talks first. The israelis won this time.

[Scorpion]

Typical of Israeli logic. They want to sent a message to Hamas not to interfere with the peace process by destroying a portion of Gaza.

Sensless.

I'll be interested in the degree of condemnation expressed by the Bush administration.

[BoogyMan]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.

[Scorpion]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.


I understand the frustration the Israelis must feel but the fact that a few rockets, mortar shells or RPGs were launched into Israel shouldn't be addressed by a tank battalion and attack aircraft indiscriminately destroying portions of Gaza without regard for civilian casualties.

[BoogyMan]

I see what you are talking about Bourne, it simply seems that Israel is always the one condemned though for a dispute that both sides are actively participating in.

[lily]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.


Yes, I did read that.......my main gripe is the timing of their actions. Just goes to show, they have no desire for peace.

[AlonzoMourning23]

I see what you are talking about Bourne, it simply seems that Israel is always the one condemned though for a dispute that both sides are actively participating in.

And until Israel learns the concept of "bad timing" there will be many more rockets where those came from.

[jafar00]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.


It's so easy to condemn the Palestinians, but what about condemning the Israeli provocation that led to the rocket attacks? Surely forcefully removing people from their homes, killing them, taking their land, fencing them into a vast open air prison, and laying siege to them has got to generate some sort of response?
You are completely ignoring the reasons the Palestinians are fighting Israelis in the first place.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians should just remove their trousers, bend over and take it while thinking of Bethlehem?

[Elrathin]

Jafar, and what it all boils down to is the Palestinians want Israelis to leave. That is what starting this whole mess decades ago right? Well, it's not going to happen.

I'm not saying Israel is perfect, far from it, and I have my own opinions on them. However, with BOTH sides constantly acting and reacting, there will be no peace. To say Palestinians bare no fault in this is simply not true, just as it is not true to say Israel is also not at fault.

So here's the thing, Israel declares a cease fire, and then Palestinians attack for something they claim happened before the cease fire.

Then Palestinians declare a cease fire and Israel attacks in retribution for something the Palestinians did before the cease fire.

When does it end? When does one side stop trying to one-up the other before a cease fire?

[AlonzoMourning23]

The problem EL is that Israel has to control one thing, the army. The palestinians can declare a ceasefire, have 90% of the militant groups comply, but if they can't control every, single militant group they're screwed.

[BoogyMan]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.


It's so easy to condemn the Palestinians, but what about condemning the Israeli provocation that led to the rocket attacks? Surely forcefully removing people from their homes, killing them, taking their land, fencing them into a vast open air prison, and laying siege to them has got to generate some sort of response?
You are completely ignoring the reasons the Palestinians are fighting Israelis in the first place.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians should just remove their trousers, bend over and take it while thinking of Bethlehem?


I think you have taken my point to an extreme I didn't intend Jafar. My point being that BOTH sides made this mess and BOTH sides are perpetuating it.

Where is the condemnation of BOTH sides?

[Deadshot]

I think you have taken my point to an extreme I didn't intend Jafar. My point being that BOTH sides made this mess and BOTH sides are perpetuating it.

Where is the condemnation of BOTH sides?


:worship:ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY CORRECT!!!!:clapper:

Boogy's right here fella's, each side is screwing up here. There probably are some honest brokers on each side. But when one side begins to make gains towards peace, his OWN SIDE shit's it down their legs.

To try and simplify this and lay it at the ground of the Israelis or Palestinians is a hopeless gesture. BOTH sides are to blame!

[jafar00]

Did anyone else notice the following?

Since the Hamas takeover, Israel has carried out frequent airstrikes and ground incursions into Gaza in response to Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli border communities. Israel considers Hamas a terrorist group and holds it responsible for all attacks launched from Gaza.

Where is the condemnation for the Palestinian provocation of this action? It seems there is enough blame to cover both parties in this process and it isn't going to get any better until both sides cease their hostile actions.


It's so easy to condemn the Palestinians, but what about condemning the Israeli provocation that led to the rocket attacks? Surely forcefully removing people from their homes, killing them, taking their land, fencing them into a vast open air prison, and laying siege to them has got to generate some sort of response?
You are completely ignoring the reasons the Palestinians are fighting Israelis in the first place.

Are you suggesting the Palestinians should just remove their trousers, bend over and take it while thinking of Bethlehem?


I think you have taken my point to an extreme I didn't intend Jafar. My point being that BOTH sides made this mess and BOTH sides are perpetuating it.

Where is the condemnation of BOTH sides?


So you think the Palestinians should lay down their arms while the Israelis keep them under siege? The Israelis also need to lift the siege, give Palestinians right of movement on their own land and stop confiscating their land before there is any hope of that.
There is too much telling the Palestinians to stop what they are doing and not enough telling the Israelis to stop at the same time.

[BoogyMan]

So you think the Palestinians should lay down their arms while the Israelis keep them under siege? The Israelis also need to lift the siege, give Palestinians right of movement on their own land and stop confiscating their land before there is any hope of that.

There is too much telling the Palestinians to stop what they are doing and not enough telling the Israelis to stop at the same time.

That isn't what I said either Jafar, how about stepping back from the issue a bit and taking an honest look at the situation.

Both sides of that conflict are at fault.

[Elrathin]

The problem EL is that Israel has to control one thing, the army. The palestinians can declare a ceasefire, have 90% of the militant groups comply, but if they can't control every, single militant group they're screwed.


Zo, there are countries, including Saudi Arbaia (a U.S. ally) that can't control everyone in their country, so do we attack Saudi Arabia or Pakistan (Another U.S. Ally) cause they can't control EVERYBODY? I mean let's hold some consistency here.[hr]
I think you have taken my point to an extreme I didn't intend Jafar. My point being that BOTH sides made this mess and BOTH sides are perpetuating it.

Where is the condemnation of BOTH sides?


I agree with you that BOTH sides are the problem ,but does the U.S. deal with BOTH sides the same way? Absolutely NOT. Why? Because many Christians have a problem with criticizing Israel on anything and that is NOT false.

[hr]
Both sides of that conflict are at fault.



Both sides are at fault, but the way the U.S. deals with both sides does not show equal fault Boogy.

[jafar00]

The one who is most at fault is the one that lets Israel do what they have been doing for decades with impunity. What the Palestinians do is just a symptom of that.

[BoogyMan]

The one who is most at fault is the one that lets Israel do what they have been doing for decades with impunity. What the Palestinians do is just a symptom of that.


Obviously I would disagree Jafar. The US has made efforts to stem the tide of violence between the Palestinians and Israelis for many years and the bloodthirsty on both sides of this issue have shown a unique talent for derailing whatever efforts are made.

There are many who want to claim that the US is culpable for the violence between the two. This is a position I am loathe to see the reasoning behind.

Your assertion that Palestinian actions are merely "symptoms" intrigues me and I believe it to be part of the reason that the violence will likely never end as one side of the conflict is consistently given a pass for it's bloodlust.

[Elrathin]

Obviously I would disagree Jafar. The US has made efforts to stem the tide of violence between the Palestinians and Israelis for many years and the bloodthirsty on both sides of this issue have shown a unique talent for derailing whatever efforts are made.


Boogy I'm sorry but the U.s. has been siding with Israel for quite a while. I won't deny that the U.S. has made efforst with the peace process, however, the U.S. always sides with Israel when there is a problem.

[BoogyMan]

The US siding with Israel is not what is keeping the conflict between the two parties alive El, it just isn't. There is no amount of "blame America first" thought that is going to remove the blood stains on the hands of BOTH of the parties in their headlong rush to their own destruction.

[Elrathin]

The problem is Boogy there are those religous fanatics in the U.S. that believe Israel has a right to their land THROUGH GOD, they are not going to go against that no matter what. No matter what you say YES that is a problem, because the U.S. sides with Israel each and every time.

Hell Boogy, one only has to look at the U.S.S. Liberty incident to realize the religious fanatics won't fault Israel for anything. Everyone keeps saying Remember 9/11, but I guess fuck the U.S.S. Liberty Incident right?

[jafar00]

The one who is most at fault is the one that lets Israel do what they have been doing for decades with impunity. What the Palestinians do is just a symptom of that.


Obviously I would disagree Jafar. The US has made efforts to stem the tide of violence between the Palestinians and Israelis for many years


By vetoing any UN resolutions aimed against Israel in an attempt to reign them in?

[BoogyMan]

The one who is most at fault is the one that lets Israel do what they have been doing for decades with impunity. What the Palestinians do is just a symptom of that.


Obviously I would disagree Jafar. The US has made efforts to stem the tide of violence between the Palestinians and Israelis for many years


By vetoing any UN resolutions aimed against Israel in an attempt to reign them in?


Jafar, you and Elrathin seem to be trying to make the argument that I am standing up for Israel which I am not, nor am I accepting the "blame America first" types of argumentation.

I am simply pointing out that the rhetoric is pretty much one sided with regard to the Israel/Palestine debacle and I am also pointing to the fact that it is the active participants (Israel and Palestine) who should bear the shame for their actions, not the US.

Jafar you must admit that there is precious little condemnation of the hideous acts committed by the Palestinians against Israel just as I must recognize and take into account the consistent over-reaction of Israel with regard to their actions against Palestine.

[lily]

I am simply pointing out that the rhetoric is pretty much one sided with regard to the Israel/Palestine debacle and I am also pointing to the fact that it is the active participants (Israel and Palestine) who should bear the shame for their actions, not the US.


Yes, but there are many who seem to think that Israel and the US are attached at the hip. Some bring up Iran's threat to wipe Israel the off the pages of history as a direct threat to the US.......when in fact we've found out many times over that Israel is more than capapble of taking care of herself.........another example would be the continous foreign aide given to Israel, to buy arms or whatever to lob over onto Palestine.....while the Palesinians throw stones. (metophorically)

Israel has a right to exist........and so does Palestine.

[Cobra]

No country has a “right” to exist. They exist only by staying powerful enough to thwart any other countries that might try to destroy them and vice versa.

[tranquill]

Israelis blocked the Sufa again - now with farmers! Look here:

http://samsonblinded.org/news/kibbutzniks-try-to-block-sufa-crossing-again-2247

[preservanation]

Israelis blocked the Sufa again - now with farmers! Look here:

http://samsonblinded.org/news/kibbutzniks-try-to-block-sufa-crossing-again-2247Yet, look here...Truck bomb intercepted at Eretz Crossingwith Gaza, laden with 4 tons of explosives, detonated on the Gazan side of the border. The Jewish state continues dutifully supplying Gaza with water, fuel, and electricity. http://samsonblinded.org/news/truck-bomb-intercepted-at-eretz-crossing-2196

[DamnYankee]

The US siding with Israel is not what is keeping the conflict between the two parties alive El, it just isn't. There is no amount of "blame America first" thought that is going to remove the blood stains on the hands of BOTH of the parties in their headlong rush to their own destruction.

Those people have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. Nothing we say or do is going to stop them or change any minds so let them work it out. Each party is just as responsible for causing their share of trouble.

[DamnYankee]

By vetoing any UN resolutions aimed against Israel in an attempt to reign them in?

And what has all the muslim/Arab countries done? Not a damn thing but attack Israel. So muslims/Arabs are just as guilty.

[jafar00]

Those people have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. Nothing we say or do is going to stop them or change any minds so let them work it out. Each party is just as responsible for causing their share of trouble.

The Israeli state has only existed for 50 years. Where are these thousands of years of conflict coming from?

And what has all the muslim/Arab countries done? Not a damn thing but attack Israel. So muslims/Arabs are just as guilty.


Israel was created by terrorism and the systematic eviction of over 700,000 people from their homes, and the killing of anyone who resisted the eviction. I think the Muslims/Arabs have a good reason to be attacking the Zionist State of Israel.

[preservanation]

Israel was created by terrorism and the systematic eviction of over 700,000 people from their homes, and the killing of anyone who resisted the eviction. I think the Muslims/Arabs have a good reason to be attacking the Zionist State of Israel.Okay.
The partition plan was approved by 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions.

The 33 countries that cast the “Yes” vote were: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussia, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine, Union of South Africa, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela. (Among other countries, the list includes the US, the three British Dominions, all the European countries except for Greece and the UK, but including all the Soviet-block countries.) When has Iceland been labeled a terrorist nation, or the great Saten?

How is America's defence of a legal State (according to the Yalta Conference) considered evil?

Can't YOU all just get along?

[DamnYankee]

Israel was created by terrorism and the systematic eviction of over 700,000 people from their homes, and the killing of anyone who resisted the eviction. I think the Muslims/Arabs have a good reason to be attacking the Zionist State of Israel.

Perhaps the Arabs shouldn't have invaded in 1948. There probably wouldn't be a problem today. The Palestinians would still have their land, and Jews would be happily growing their democracy, but no, the Arabs saw fit to start a war that they lost along with the land.

Maybe both sides will get sick of the bloodshed someday. You think?

[jafar00]

Perhaps the Arabs shouldn't have invaded in 1948. There probably wouldn't be a problem today. The Palestinians would still have their land, and Jews would be happily growing their democracy, but no, the Arabs saw fit to start a war that they lost along with the land.

You appear to have your history mixed up. The Arab nations attacks the Israelis AFTER the mass expulsion and genocidal murder of the Palestinians.

Okay.
How is America's defence of a legal State (according to the Yalta Conference) considered evil?

America's defense of Israel is not the problem. It's the blindness to Israeli crimes that is.


Can't YOU all just get along?

Actually we did before the creation of the Israeli state and the rise of Zionism.
Jews, Christians and Muslims lived relatively peacefully together in Palestine before regional upheavals.

You can look at Iraq which had 130,000 Jews living there before WWII, Saddam Hussein and the 2 Iraq Wars left the current estimated Iraqi Jewish population at just 7. Iraq was once proud that the Church and Synagogue could exist next door to a Mosque in peace in their land. What changed?

Even Iran that is painted as an anti semitic, anti Jewish state has a happy Jewish population estimated at 30-50,000 strong, all strongly Anti-Zionist and who have representation in the Iranian Parliament.

There are countless other examples throughout history of where Arabs and Muslims have welcomed Jews into their countries and sheltered them so don't ask "Why can't you all just get along?". You know why there is a problem at the moment. That problem is the Zionist State of Israel.