Education for democracy

[Athena]

The following are Robodoon's quotes from the "Our Fuedal FutureThread".
Our disagreement is he seems to think Christianity prevents something like Nazi, Germany and I am saying Christianity is not what prevents something like Nazi, Germany but complimented Nazi, Germany and the establishment of the New World Order, which was under the control of Hitler, and is now under the control of Bush. Here are Robodoon's quotes and then I post my arguement.


Dr. Jedidah Morse
"To the kindly influence of Christianity, we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoy. In proportion, as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation, either through unbelief, or the corruption of its doctrines, or the neglect of its institutions; in the same proportion will the people of the nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom and approximate the miseries of complete despotism." (1799)
Rockefeller Education Board—which funded the creation of numerous public schools—issued a statement which read in part:


"In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/firs...mpsons.htm

Do you know what higher education is about today?

[Athena]

Robodoon, I can agree with the first quote, only because it was education for democracy that made Christianity any good.Â*Â*Without the education for democracy, you get the same Christianity that was the Nazi, Germany we defended our democracy against.Â*Â*

Both Christianity and Islam (Muslims) are only as good as the cultures they are in.Â*Â*Early European Christians, as Muslims in countries that are behind the times, did awful things, like witch hunts and burning heretics- preventing the development of scientific thought and maintaining superstition, and thru such religious ego centricity, committing a war on people they didn't know (crusades).Â*Â*It is not the religion that made life in the US good, but the culture that came from Athens.Â*Â*It was liberal education for democracy in imitation of Athens education, that made life in the US good.

The second quote is excellent.Â*Â*Do you know its source and the date?Â*Â*I would love to use this quote in my campaign to return the US to education for democracy, a liberal education that teaches for all elements of civilization.Â*Â* For sure there was interest in imitating our enemies education system at least since we mobilized for the first world war 1917.Â*Â*This education, educates for technology, and left moral training to the church.Â*Â*That is the cause of the down fall of the US today.Â*Â*Now people think the only way to understand God is how the Christians define God, and the only people who know morals are Christians.Â*Â*This has the US torn apart between believers and non believers (who may also hold a concept of God), and ready to kill any people in the world, their "Christian" leader determines to kill, including supporting Zionist religious warfare.

Here is the knowledge of German education that lead to the Rockefellor quote-
William JamesÂ*Â*"Talks to Teachers" 1899

If we reflect upon the ideals of education that are prevelant in different countries we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct. This is most immediately obvious in Germany, where the explicitly avowed aim of the higher education is to turn the student into an instrument for advancing scientific discovery. The German universities are proud of the number of young specialist they turn out each year,- not necessarly men of any original force of intellect, but men so trained to research that when their professor gives them an historical or philogical theseis to prepare, or a bit of laboratory work to do, with a general indicating as to the best method, they can go off by themselves and use apparatus and consult sources in such a way as to grind out in the requiste number of months some little pepper-corn of new truth worthy of being added to the store of extant human information on that subject.Â*Â*Little else is recognized in Germany as a man's title to acadamic advancement than his ability thus to show himself an efficient instrument of research.

This education results in a mechanical society, like the Borg of Star Trek, only the wiring of the Star Trek Borg isn't needed, just the training of the mind to prepare individuals to fit into the mechancial society.Â*Â*

[Athena]

J.A.B. Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy argued in favor of replacing our education with the German model when we mobilized for the first world war at the 1917 National Education Association Conference.Â*Â*

"The German military organization is the world's model, at least from the standpoint of immediate accomplishment of results, and therefore we can hardly do better than to emulate it in its perfect working.Â*Â*It was effected in its minutest detail by the very essence of scientific thought and application.Â*Â*In that organization every tongue fitted its groove, every tooth its socket.Â*Â*We have seen how the Kaiser's marvelous soldiers carried their banner to the very outskirts of Paris in August and September, 1914.Â*Â*It is the Great God efficiency, to which the Germans were required by their commanders to pay the homage of worship- and it behooves us either to effect a thing that will operate as well or to copy theirs."

The commanders could have such control over the soldiers, because their education prepared them to function like the Borg.Â*Â*We didn't fully adopt this model for education until the 1958 National Defense Education Act replaced our liberal education, and thus made the US the greatest military might on earth, with a population willing to cut education and social services and put Social Security and our elders at risk, and neglect health care, to spend much more on military cost than than any other nation in the world.Â*Â*And this is what is necessary for the New World Order of which Bush fancies himself the great leader.Â*Â*

Young people, it is the difference in education before 1958 and since 1958 that is the bases for most our disagreements.Â*Â*If you can, watch the original Star Trek and then the Next Generation.Â*Â*Kirk is the John Wagne of space, and Picard is from the generation since we replaced education for independent thinking with "group think".Â*Â*This change in education is what leads to a mechanical society, the Borg.Â*Â*

What we value depends on what are taught to value, and the democracy defended in two world wars, dies with the older generation that defended it, unless we immediately realize what has happened and revert public education back to education for democracy.Â*Â*The New World Order will replace the democracy the was the US, until it is destroyed by internal tearing and destruction, or world war.Â*Â*Â*Â*

[Athena]

Our modern arguements are very unlike the discussions our forefathers, literate in Greek and Roman classics, had. This is not only because we are conscious of different knowledge today, but how we have taught the young to think was changed in 1958.

Before 1958, we used the Conceptual Method and since 1958 we have used the Behaviorist Method. The Behaviorist Method is also used for training dogs. I actually know a teacher who stopped teaching in schools and opened his own dog training business! We might agree, dogs will be given voting powers any time soon. And perhaps, human begins who have not been educated by the Conceptual Method, should not have voting powers either.

If you are a US citizen, this last thought may anger you, but how about Iraq? Have you noticed Iraq is crumbling into a civil war and we are powerless to prevent this? Why? Because unless people are educated by the Conceptual method, they are not well prepared for democracy. We can not turn the whole world into a democracy with military might, and the effort to do so will destroy the US as surely as the military leaders of Athens and Rome destroyed those civilizations. Those nations fell, but their intellectual achievements are the foundations of western civilizations. Something you will understand without having a classical education. Like Christianity and Islam are not education for demcracy.

The Conceptual method is teaching children increasingly difficult concepts, and then how they are interrelated. Finally, the students are taught to think their way through conflicting ideas, and realize a larger truth. This method of education teachings independent thinking and internalizes authority. Liberty is not possible without it. Democracy without liberty is equal to a Muslim controlled theocracy, even if the citizens are Christian.

The Behaviorist method, is "group think" and holds authority external, much as Christianity and Islam do, with an external God who rewards and punishes people. Opposed to this is the Conceptual Method which makes people as the gods- Cicero's, or the Hellenistic understanding of God and humans. But the Behaviorist Method maintains people as the subject to authority, as does Christianity and Islam. The Behaviorist Method focuses on facts, and either a person is right or wrong. This thinking pits people against eachother and keeps them squabbling over stupid little points or attacking each other, and prevents them from realizing larger truths. Modern thinking, and debating, is like picking at pimples, increasing the infection, instead of realizing the problem is acne and treating it. This is the thinking that takes delight in the idea that someone is kicking my ass, or proving me wrong, rather then being able to discuss the concepts that are the topics of threads.

The origin Star Trek and Star Trek the Next Generation, demonstrates this historical change in the US culture, and the whole world might take notice. Captian Kirk in the original Star Trek is the John Wayne of outer space. Captian Picard is the "group think" generation. The group think generation is not so different from the Borg. We are not linked to a computer with wires, but our inability to think independently and to understand concepts, leaves us as dependant on the mechine as if we were wired to it. The homeless among us are those who can not be assorbed by the machine.

[dsanthony]

Robodoon, I can agree with the first quote, only because it was education for democracy that made Christianity any good.Â*Â*Without the education for democracy, you get the same Christianity that was the Nazi, Germany we defended our democracy against.Â*Â*

Both Christianity and Islam (Muslims) are only as good as the cultures they are in.Â*Â*Early European Christians, as Muslims in countries that are behind the times, did awful things, like witch hunts and burning heretics- preventing the development of scientific thought and maintaining superstition, and thru such religious ego centricity, committing a war on people they didn't know (crusades).Â*Â*It is not the religion that made life in the US good, but the culture that came from Athens.Â*Â*It was liberal education for democracy in imitation of Athens education, that made life in the US good.

The second quote is excellent.Â*Â*Do you know its source and the date?Â*Â*I would love to use this quote in my campaign to return the US to education for democracy, a liberal education that teaches for all elements of civilization.Â*Â* For sure there was interest in imitating our enemies education system at least since we mobilized for the first world war 1917.Â*Â*This education, educates for technology, and left moral training to the church.Â*Â*That is the cause of the down fall of the US today.Â*Â*Now people think the only way to understand God is how the Christians define God, and the only people who know morals are Christians.Â*Â*This has the US torn apart between believers and non believers (who may also hold a concept of God), and ready to kill any people in the world, their "Christian" leader determines to kill, including supporting Zionist religious warfare.

Here is the knowledge of German education that lead to the Rockefellor quote-
William JamesÂ*Â*"Talks to Teachers" 1899

If we reflect upon the ideals of education that are prevelant in different countries we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct. This is most immediately obvious in Germany, where the explicitly avowed aim of the higher education is to turn the student into an instrument for advancing scientific discovery. The German universities are proud of the number of young specialist they turn out each year,- not necessarly men of any original force of intellect, but men so trained to research that when their professor gives them an historical or philogical theseis to prepare, or a bit of laboratory work to do, with a general indicating as to the best method, they can go off by themselves and use apparatus and consult sources in such a way as to grind out in the requiste number of months some little pepper-corn of new truth worthy of being added to the store of extant human information on that subject.Â*Â*Little else is recognized in Germany as a man's title to acadamic advancement than his ability thus to show himself an efficient instrument of research.

This education results in a mechanical society, like the Borg of Star Trek, only the wiring of the Star Trek Borg isn't needed, just the training of the mind to prepare individuals to fit into the mechancial society.Â*Â*


Any system of "education" or culture, whether christian, secular-humanism, science-based or Islamic can be abused to justify torture or repression.

[Athena]

Any system of "education" or culture, whether christian, secular-humanism, science-based or Islamic can be abused to justify torture or repression.


You have used good terms, but I am not sure your statement is correct.
I can understand this to be true of the religions based on the God of Abraham, which is a tribal war god.Â*Â*Science can be amoral, and do nothing to train for good moral judgement, leaving those so educated amoral and easily malnipulated.Â*Â*But a secular classical education based on the best literature in history or the study of the arts and what is best in humanity (humanism) are the same thing, and I do not see how these can lead to justifying torture or repression.Â*Â*Do you want to give an example of this perversion of education? Even when we used public education to mobilize the US for WWI and WWII, it did not justify torture and repression, but instead highlighted the US's national values against both to justify our war activity.

Do you understand the difference between the Conceptional Method (concepts)Â*Â*and the Behaviorist Method (facts)?Â*Â*The difference between abstract thinking and concrete thinking?Â*Â*

[firefox]

Why did this Athena guy get banned? (Just curious)