Starting Out Conservative

[ClayBarham]

How does one become a conservative? Usually, it is an awakening, falling off the natural altruistic liberalism path into the reality of why America is such a great nation. I did not start that way. I actually began as a conservative when I was in grammar school, what we call elementary school today. I was not a good student, but I did read small glossy-covered books on the lives of great American heroes, such as George Washington, John Paul Jones, a Frenchman named Lafayette, and many others.

I did not have a father figure at home, as my Mother and Father was divorced when I was about four or five. It was no sad loss, as he was a dedicated alcoholic and would have provided the worst of examples to a growing young boy. I guess that is why I had such an appetite for books on great men. I wanted to find out how men were supposed to act. I discovered one set of virtues found in each of those men. It was an inseparable set of values, one being honor and the other courage. It took great courage to be honorable, as I saw it. When I was 9 years old, I had an opportunity to test myself to see if the message and the virtues were established in my character. Twice a week, in the wee hours of the morning, when it was still dark, I delivered the Shopping News door to door, for which I was paid a two dollar bill each trip. On the stoop of a duplex, what we used to call a flat, I saw a bunched up twenty dollar bill. It looked like it fell out of someone’s pocket while groping for door keys. I rang the doorbell and awakened the man of the house, who was quite angry at being disturbed. I told him what I had found and he old me to throw it inside, at which time he slammed the door shut. I left the stoop feeling proud of myself, unconcerned about the rudeness, because I had done the right thing.

That helped shape, but was not the cause of my becoming a conservative, however. One of the books I read was a story by Edward Everett Hale called, “Man Without a Country.” It is a story every young person should be required to read. It was about a young officer who was tried for a treasonable act, and before he was sentenced, he angrily told the court he hoped never to see his country again. The judge sentenced him to his own request that he never be permitted to see America again. He was posted to various naval vessels. He spent his remaining years on foreign lands and seas. When he died, they found his cabin full of mementos of America, including an American flag hanging on his wall. As a youngster, I remember weeping, all choked up in my pity for Lt. Phillip Nolan, and at the same time, in love with America. From that time on, I endeavored to gain greater understanding of what it is that makes America so great. That is when I became a conservative. The books I read are no longer politically correct and will likely never be available to other young Americans. To understand America is to love her.

[Scorpion]

Great post Clay. And your anecdote about Lt. Nolan reminded me that America isn't just a country, it's a state of mind which can be taken anywhere.

[Elrathin]

From that time on, I endeavored to gain greater understanding of what it is that makes America so great. That is when I became a conservative. The books I read are no longer politically correct and will likely never be available to other young Americans. To understand America is to love her.


The values you describe are not conservative in nature. They are neither conservative nor liberal, they are patriotic. Unless of course you are trying to say liberals are not patriotic, in which case as someone who retired in the military serving my country, I would say Bullshit as I am a liberal and very patriotic.

Just because I may not agree with the course of action in a current administration, does not diminish me being patriotic in the least.

[Scorpion]

From that time on, I endeavored to gain greater understanding of what it is that makes America so great. That is when I became a conservative. The books I read are no longer politically correct and will likely never be available to other young Americans. To understand America is to love her.


The values you describe are not conservative in nature. They are neither conservative nor liberal, they are patriotic. Unless of course you are trying to say liberals are not patriotic, in which case as someone who retired in the military serving my country, I would say Bullshit as I am a liberal and very patriotic.

Just because I may not agree with the course of action in a current administration, does not diminish me being patriotic in the least.


Clay's values have demonstrated that he's a patriotic conservative just as you claim to be a patriotic liberal.

[Elrathin]

So what values did Clay put in his post now that are conservative in nature?

[ClayBarham]

How about a dedication to the ideals of individual freedom which sets America apart from the rest of the world you liberals have such a fascination for?

[Elrathin]

How about a dedication to the ideals of individual freedom which sets America apart from the rest of the world you liberals have such a fascination for?


I do have that, do you? I've served my country, have you?

[ViolaLee]

Ideals of individual freedom are not conservative ideals. You liberal bashers are just digging yourselves the grave of embarressment with all your holier than thou conservative bullshit.

[Scorpion]

How about a dedication to the ideals of individual freedom which sets America apart from the rest of the world you liberals have such a fascination for?


In part I agree with you Clay. Individual freedom is an important component of conservatism. I'm not convinced that liberals in general are "fascinated" with the rest of the world, but many certainly seem strangely agreeable to the world's denunciation of the US.[hr]

How about a dedication to the ideals of individual freedom which sets America apart from the rest of the world you liberals have such a fascination for?


I do have that, do you? I've served my country, have you?


El, with all due respect, what has military service to do with conservative patriotism? BTW, I too served in the military.

[Elrathin]

El, with all due respect, what has military service to do with conservative patriotism? BTW, I too served in the military.


Read Clay's posts, several times he has questioned the patriotism of liberals. So I have to ask someone like that what they have done, when they accuse me of not.

[ViolaLee]

In part I agree with you Clay. Individual freedom is an important component of conservatism. I'm not convinced that liberals in general are "fascinated" with the rest of the world, but many certainly seem strangely agreeable to the world's denunciation of the US.


Are we to believe that you would support the US government no matter what they do?

That's called loyalism, not patriotism.

[Scorpion]

El, with all due respect, what has military service to do with conservative patriotism? BTW, I too served in the military.


Read Clay's posts, several times he has questioned the patriotism of liberals. So I have to ask someone like that what they have done, when they accuse me of not.


Ok, that's reasonable. I don't speak for Clay but perhaps he was a bit too general in characterizing liberals as unpatriotic. There are many liberals who I condsider patriots.

[Shintao]

Great post Clay. And your anecdote about Lt. Nolan reminded me that America isn't just a country, it's a state of mind which can be taken anywhere.


Yes, I think it interesting how you came about being a conservative, and sorry about your poor childhood of suffering without your own loving parents. Just having people love you helps. And you seem to have learned good American values practised by most Americans in growing up in America, whether you be a Liberal or Conservative.[hr]They are neither conservative nor liberal, they are patriotic.

I don't see where Clay said Liberals are unpatriotic. He only speaks about he personally became a conservative and a few of points sticking out in his mind that made him that way.

Maybe this is a thread about what shaped your political developement in a certain manner. What made you a Liberal?[hr]


El, with all due respect, what has military service to do with conservative patriotism? BTW, I too served in the military.


Read Clay's posts, several times he has questioned the patriotism of liberals. So I have to ask someone like that what they have done, when they accuse me of not.


Ok, that's reasonable. I don't speak for Clay but perhaps he was a bit too general in characterizing liberals as unpatriotic. There are many liberals who I condsider patriots.


I don't anywhere Clay saying anyone was unpatriotic. He speaks for himself about himself & nothing more. Good job Clay! :thumbsup:

[Shintao]

Well, nobody asked me, but how does one become a Liberal?

I grew up in the depressed of times, right after WWII, my father and mother staunch conservatives, quick with the belt in a world ruled by fear and obedience. My dad built water/oil/chemical tanks on the west coast and we moved with him job to job, school to school, a new town every 2-3 months in a cramped trailer.

I didn't have time to make or keep friends, but I did get to attend schools among all races of children from Alaska to Arizona - the eight weastern states. Alaskians, navojos, Apache, blacks, mexicans, etc. Damn if I didn't manage to graduate high school.

So dad asked me, do you want to go to work or go to college and I chose work, because back in the 60's a steel man could make more a week than a doctor. SO I pound steel and then I went into the military to fight for our country in Vietnam. Up until this time I was a conservative and fairly well thought like a conservative.

But the military was different, we were no longer individuals, but a sleek working killing machine and were damn good at it in nam. And we depended on our Brothers as they depended on us in the jungles. And they died for me, and I took rounds for them. It was during this period that we worked around the boat people, and I saw that the Chinese were being discriminated against, just as the whites did the mexicans, blacks, or anyone poor in America. My family wasn't racist, pop never degraded anyone, and neither did I, but the comparison was undeniable and hit me like a ton of bricks.

But I could watch the harm done to these people living in colvert pipes along the Chalon district of Siagon. And then I had the opportunity to help put on the Bob Hope show, and also a chance to go see the wounded and disabled children at an orphanage, the children of war. And we gathered presents from America, and pass these out at Christmas to the children. So this sharpened my feelings and caring for all humans, not just the ones that drive Hudsons and Cadillacs at home.

And I quickly learned you couldn't be a humanitarian in America and be a conservative, so I crossed the line. I couldn't be both, and I rebelled from my family and finally saw the light. Damn it feels good to live in the light as a Liberal. I don't have to impress anyone with wealth, and I am fortunate to be buried in it. But I don't forget about all the poor people I have seen across America, and I don't resent the rich being rich, only that they forget where they came from and could ease the burden on our fellow human beings. What are they going to do with it? Pass it on to people who don't give a fig, and toss it away? My total worth will one day go to a community college, because education is the key needed to make humanitarian efforts work. And as I grow older now I have to work constantly toward arranging that goal for others. I am glad I can, I feel good inside about it, and I wonder how many conservatives actually feel good inside because they help others?

[ClayBarham]

I think you'll find most charitable giving is done by churches and conservatives and little by liberals, as the liberals expect government to doit. Conservatives are humane in a different way, as they see people as individuals. Liberals see themselves humane because they see groups, and insist on someone doing something about group plight. I liked your story, except it took the wrong direction out of what looked like a justification for being something less than perhaps your parents were or what they projected for you. We all can rationalize decisions we make, and the more we have to do it, one could step back and assume the original decision was wrong.

[Elrathin]

Actually I have found most conservatives to be selfish because they believe that people should get what they get ON THEIR OWN.

[Scorpion]

Actually I have found most conservatives to be selfish because they believe that people should get what they get ON THEIR OWN.


Yes, shameful isn't it? We conservatives actually expect people to work hard and earn their place in society instead of depending on handouts.

[Elrathin]

Yes, shameful isn't it? We conservatives actually expect people to work hard and earn their place in society instead of depending on handouts.


Thanks for proving my point as always. Charity is not a trait most conservatives have.

[Scorpion]

Yes, shameful isn't it? We conservatives actually expect people to work hard and earn their place in society instead of depending on handouts.


Thanks for proving my point as always. Charity is not a trait most conservatives have.


That's right, us conservatives advocate hard work and determination as a road to success whereas you liberals advocate free, unconditional handouts.

[Elrathin]

That's right, us conservatives advocate hard work and determination as a road to success whereas you liberals advocate free, unconditional handouts.


Yep most conservatives advocate not helping out when someone is going through hard times. Real winners there. Also please don't lie I do not advocate UNCONDITIONAL charity, your lies have been noted.

[Scorpion]

That's right, us conservatives advocate hard work and determination as a road to success whereas you liberals advocate free, unconditional handouts.


Yep most conservatives advocate not helping out when someone is going through hard times. Real winners there. Also please don't lie I do not advocate UNCONDITIONAL charity, your lies have been noted.


Yes, of course, self righteous indignation when you are faced with your own fallicies. Conservatives agree with assistance as long as it doesn't translate to dependence.

Conservatives expect people to pull themselves up, not become a burden.

[Elrathin]

Yes, of course, self righteous indignation when you are faced with your own fallicies. Conservatives agree with assistance as long as it doesn't translate to dependence.

Not my fault you like to make up lies about me as usual.


Conservatives expect people to pull themselves up, not become a burden.


Many conservatives want welfare to go away and Social Security, that is not helping people pull themselves up. Sorry but most conservatives do not believe in charity or helping others, they believe in helping themselves. Too bad the truth hurts you.

At any point, this conversation is done as you seem to only want to lie, so welcome to ignore as well.

[Scorpion]

Yes, of course, self righteous indignation when you are faced with your own fallicies. Conservatives agree with assistance as long as it doesn't translate to dependence.

Not my fault you like to make up lies about me as usual.


Conservatives expect people to pull themselves up, not become a burden.


Many conservatives want welfare to go away and Social Security, that is not helping people pull themselves up. Sorry but most conservatives do not believe in charity or helping others, they believe in helping themselves. Too bad the truth hurts you.

At any point, this conversation is done as you seem to only want to lie, so welcome to ignore as well.


El my friend, your adopting that liberal disease, paranoia.

[preservanation]

I believe in feeling that I'm doing good.
No matter the consequences.

[Labrocca]

Ideals of individual freedom are not conservative ideals. You liberal bashers are just digging yourselves the grave of embarressment with all your holier than thou conservative bullshit.


And exactly which liberal ideas are born from individual freedom? Tax the rich and give it to the poor? What about taking away gun rights of the people...is that what you call a liberal individual freedom?

The only conservative ideal that I believe conflicts with personal freedom is the anti-abortion stance. Other than that...conservatives are more imho about individual freedom than liberals.

Liberals expect goverment to force freedoms..but that's not individual freedoms...that's government enforced morality. Social security and health care are not issues the liberals have a good record for individual freedom otherwise both of those programs (created by liberals) would be abolished.

Indivual freedom does not equal equality that the liberals wish to force on everyone. That's socialism.

Now...I stated a clear rational argument...no bashing and no holier than thou routine. What's your response?

[Alonzo]

The problem with that view of freedom though is that it only deals with the governments side. It doesn't deal with how individuals restrict others freedoms. For example, a homeless man who is mentally capable of working and keep himself appearing respectable, but cannot get a job solely because he does not have a home address or telephone number. Does that happen? Yes. Is that a restriction on his freedom? I believe it is, but the government isn't the one restricting his freedom. The government often needs to step in to prevent one person from restricting the freedom of another.

Loss of freedom involves the loss of ones ability to determine their own destiny. The maximum amount of freedom from government will not result in the maximum amount of freedom for the population as a whole. The government needs to place restrictions that prevent citizens from infringing on the freedoms of others to pursue their own destiny when the only thing blocking them is something immaterial to what they're pursuing, such as a man being denied a job he's more than qualified for because he has no address. The same principle existed with the civil rights acts, where certain things, such as job discrimination based on race, were no longer allowed.

[preservanation]

The government needs to place restrictions that prevent citizens from infringing on the freedoms of others to pursue their own destiny when the only thing blocking them is something immaterial to what they're pursuing,I can't agree with you more.
Government should restrict the freedoms of others in order for some to pursue their own destiny.
Well said.

[Alonzo]

Nice sarcasm.

Pres, who's freedom is hurt more when you deny someone the ability to discriminate in housing, work etc. about something unrelated to the issue at hand? Such as when a qualified homeless man is denied work because he has no address.

[Scorpion]

Zo, I must tell you. This morning I brought a male Norweigan brown rat from our lab into my office.

He enjoyed a pleasant day scooting around my desk then late this afternoon he perched on the shoulder of my lab coat and went to sleep next to my right ear. Great fun.

[preservanation]

Nice sarcasm.

Pres, who's freedom is hurt more when you deny someone the ability to discriminate in housing, work etc. about something unrelated to the issue at hand? Such as when a qualified homeless man is denied work because he has no address.
I agree.
All our freedom suffers when we deny other's their right to housing and work.
America survives on the backs of the poor, and the playing field needs to be leveled through taxes for the rich and speaking truth to power.

[Alonzo]

Zo, I must tell you. This morning I brought a male Norweigan brown rat from our lab into my office.

He enjoyed a pleasant day scooting around my desk then late this afternoon he perched on the shoulder of my lab coat and went to sleep next to my right ear. Great fun.


It's good that you care for them and make their lives a little better than it would otherwise be.

Honestly I'm kind of torn as to how to respond to your posts about lab rats, as I oppose the use of animals in all but the most humane experiments where they aren't killed, they aren't put under any stress and where they are forced to live their lives deprived of companionship (if it's a social animal) or in small enclosures. At the same time, since rats are going to die and be tortured and mistreated due to science, at least there are many scientists who do seem to treat them as best they can, as you seem to want to. I've seen many psychological experiments where their well being is completely disregarded other than following the necessary welfare requirements to avoid being reprimanded by the institutional review board.

[Alonzo]

Nice sarcasm.

Pres, who's freedom is hurt more when you deny someone the ability to discriminate in housing, work etc. about something unrelated to the issue at hand? Such as when a qualified homeless man is denied work because he has no address.
I agree.
All our freedom suffers when we deny other's their right to housing and work.
America survives on the backs of the poor, and the playing field needs to be leveled through taxes for the rich and speaking truth to power.


Why are you pretending to be liberal?

[I Like Beer]

And exactly which liberal ideas are born from individual freedom?

How about the suffrage movement, or the ending of slavery, civil rights?

What about taking away gun rights of the people...is that what you call a liberal individual freedom?

What about the right to be safe? In Canada, we have much stricter gun laws (a liberal idea) and our cities are much safer than yours. This, despite the fact we have no death penalty (another liberal idea) and "liberal" judges. (As an aside, I don't support gun bans, I like the laws we have in my country.)

The only conservative ideal that I believe conflicts with personal freedom is the anti-abortion stance. Other than that...conservatives are more imho about individual freedom than liberals.

The death penalty, doctor assisted suicide, restrictions on recreational drugs, gay rights, less censorship... just off the top of my head.

Liberals expect goverment to force freedoms..but that's not individual freedoms...that's government enforced morality.

Liberals (at least this one) believe in equity, not fairness. The concepts are different but often confused. Equity means providing people what they need to be successful. It does not mean supporting them for life.

An example would be a ramp built to help those confined to wheelchairs to gain access to buildings. This allows them to enter, but does not impact on anyone who has normal use of their legs.

Maybe I'm misreading what you said. Can you provide an example of a freedom the government is trying to mandate?

Indivual freedom does not equal equality that the liberals wish to force on everyone. That's socialism.

I think you've bastardized what liberals want. Did you gleam this by observation? True equality would be beyond socialism, it would be some kind of dystopic nightmare. We do want "equality of opportunity" which goes back to the idea of equity. We provide opportunities, we 'do unto others as we would have them do unto us', and we like being part of a community.

Now, obviously, there are some nutty liberals who would welcome what you claim. I know of a couple. One actually wanted to mandate that 50% of the public facilities be staffed by women (even if standards had to be dropped). Now, that is a nutty idea and is not a mainstream liberal idea, though, to hear you talk you may think it is?

America is one of the most conservatives (if not THE most) conservative of the western democracies. Does it not bother you that you have the second highest rate of poverty of that group? Does it not bother you that you have the highest rate of CHILD poverty in the industrialized world? All this while heading, as the GAO asserts, towards bankruptcy?

Another thing... you claim conservatives believe in individual rights (well, I've noted some things above that would beg to differ), however, I live in Canada (a very liberal country). Exactly WHAT individual rights do you enjoy that I don't? I can name some that I have that you don't.

Right now, conservatives seem to be pushing everyone apart from each other. It seems like, more and more, conservatives are only meant to care about themselves. That's not individual freedoms, that isolationism.

"I don't want to fund public education, what do I care if the kid down the street doesn't get a good education? I'll send my kid to a private school and everything is good".
"I don't want socialized medicine. What do I care if that old lady in the apartment down the hall dies because she can't afford her care. How does that affect me?"
"I don't want to pay for unemployment insurance. What does it matter if others are unemployed and broke if I got a good job."

Am I misrepresenting something?

[preservanation]

You are right Beer,
America is one of the most conservatives (if not THE most) conservative of the western democracies. Does it not bother you that you have the second highest rate of poverty of that group? Does it not bother you that you have the highest rate of CHILD poverty in the industrialized world? All this while heading, as the GAO asserts, towards bankruptcy?It is a crime that we have so many rich people who have gotten that way on the backs of the poor and starving children. All it would take is to raise the taxes on the rich to effectively eradicate poverty and hunger in America.

[ClayBarham]

We should take 100%, except for the good guys, like Soros, Buffet, Gates and all the other billionaires who believe the rest of us slobs need to be better managed by Hillary and her crew. Of course, the ones they really want to smash is the middle class who still, for the most part, think for themselves and their own interests. They really have all the money, so government hikes the taxes on them and are applauded by the billionaires and the poor. That is usually what socialists do.

[I Like Beer]

Hmmm... No one wishes to refute what I said in post #33? Labrocca, you're the one who posted the challenge.

Do I win a prize?

[Sublimating]

Great post.

I consider myself to be conservative although I disagree with perhaps half of what modern conservatism seems to represent.

In my experience doing the right thing has nothing to do with being a conservative or a liberal.

I learned to do right long before I had any interest in conservatism/liberalism. One thing that has always bothered me is when people imply that America would be better off without either democrats or republicans.

IT IS BOTH PARTIES THAT MAKE THIS COUNTRY GREAT.

For people to suggest that America is great because of the values of any particular group whether conservative or liberal does not make sense.

America is great because of the collective leadership of Americans, not conservatives and not liberals.

Even really horrible presidents (Bush) teach America a valuable lesson.

[Troubadour]

How does one become a conservative?


Rarely. Usually conservatives are indoctrinated early, without the intellectual faculties to reject what they're told, and consequently remain conservative their entire lives as a result.


To understand America is to love her.


I've never encountered a self-described conservative who understood America. Their version of "patriotism" is little more than psychotic narcissism defended with lies and tyranny. It isn't America they love - it's their own reflection.

[Osborn F. Enready]

Sublimating said:
IT IS BOTH PARTIES THAT MAKE THIS COUNTRY GREAT.

Wow, I disagree, totally.


Its is both parties, the ones we know today, that have ruined this great nation... taken us AWAY from our Constitution, individual rights, and the idea of a 3 branch government with checks and balances.

These parties of today had NOTHING to do with what made this nation great, with FEW exceptions, but they bear ALL THE BLAME for what has gone wrong.

The Libertarian Party is closest to the ideals and foundational law that founded this nation, its foundational documents, its limited powers, its UNALIENABLE RIGHTS, etc.

I couldn't disagree more about the value of the current major parties.... they are 85% + criminals, thieves, snake oil salesman and perverts.