Improved Relations With Cuba?

[bobbylien]

I would really like to see us improve relations with Cuba. It really isn't a bad country when you look at some of the horrible countries out there. They are just communist. Isolating them from us isn't the best way to get them to change. I say open the trade routes and immerse them in our culture. I would really like to see them take up democracy and I believe that isolation isn't the best way to achieve that. The Cuban people are the only ones suffering from our trade bans on Cuba. If we open up Cuba for Americans, it would instantly and greatly improve their economy, they would have a huge tourism industry. If communism is going to fail, let it fail with access to everything a capitalist nation has. That is the only way to prove once and for all that communism doesn't work.

[Alonzo]

We should open relations with cuba, the embargo is a significant reason for the economic conditions of that country.

I have mixed opinions on Cuba. Politics, free speech, government monitoring etc. are all major issues, worse than many other countries we regularly condemn (well, not north korea and a few others, some of which we do trade with). But, on the other hand, the police force is generally respectable (ie. no shooting people on the streets like in many countries, dictatorships and democracies alike), their prisons systems are bad, but there are a lot worse and more dangerous prison systems in that part of the world. The results of their health care system (due to poverty they emphasize preventative care) rival first world nations, and exceed them in some areas. Former surgeon generals have even visited there to get a better understanding of why they do so well. They have a surpluss of doctors and send them to various countries in need of them, particularly in south america, usually to serve the poor for free. They are also highly educated, and their medical institutions train many foreign doctors as well.

I think Cuba needs significant reform, and has many major issues to deal with. But I do not think that Castro fits the typical "screw the people" dictator model that we saw in most communist countries. I do not think the embargo does much of anything but keep the people poor. I also think the method we adopt with communist countries, ie. force them to collapse then sift through the rubble, is a horrible one that simply makes things worse. Steps should be taken to give the benefits of capitalism while preserving the elements of the old system that are essential. The soviet union model has had horrible results (poverty, crime etc.) due to it's sudden collapse. We shouldn't try to repeat that.

[Mayberry]

I do not think that Castro fits the typical "screw the people" dictator model that we saw in most communist countries. Tell that to the thousands of Cubans who risk life and limb to leave Cuba. I spent several weeks in the Florida Straight while in the Navy picking Cubans out of the water. We found many rafts more than 90 miles out in the Atlantic (going the wrong way), sans occupants. The ones we did recover said "they'd rather face the monsters of the sea than the monster Fidel Castro." Anyway, the Port of Corpus Christi seems to be defying the embargo anyway.



Officials work on poultry shipping

Port may handle about 16,800 tons with deal in works
CUBA TRIP
Â*Â* Fanny S. Chirinos, Caller-Times
Â*Â*Â*Â*Published: July 12, 2006


Port of Corpus Christi Chairman Ruben Bonilla and Michael Perez, the port's director of business development, returned Monday from their second trade mission to Cuba. With them came a memorandum of understanding for the export of 16,800 tons of poultry to Cuba. Bonilla and Perez met with officials with Alimport, Cuba's state-owned import company. Both traveled as consultants, sidestepping U.S. travel restrictions to Cuba. Bonilla represented U.S. Ozark Mountain Co. and Perez represented WestStar Food Co.


"Instead of talking about single shipments of poultry, we talked about a continuous flow from September to December, 4,200 tons each month," Bonilla said. "We are now opening discussions with a potential vessel operator. If we can identify the shipping line for Cuban trade and establish regular service, Alimport has committed to shipping products on a regular basis through the port. There's a possibility of achieving that this year."

Alimport also has agreed to expand its current line of traditional commodities of wheat, beans and poultry to include rice, vegetables, beef, eggs, fruit, lentils, peas, cotton, newsprint and utility poles, Perez said.

"The port has offered to provide efficient and cost-productive facilities and, in turn, Alimport will use its best efforts to double its existing business through the port and to explore business opportunities with firms based in the Coastal Bend and throughout Texas," Perez said.

WestStar Food Co. has exported about 20,000 metric tons of Great Northern beans to Cuba since 2003 and is scheduled to send another 10,000 metric tons by late summer, according to Mike Walleson, the company's managing partner. Although a memorandum was not signed during this trip because of the high price of American beans, Bonilla said he's not discouraged.

"Commodity prices change often and next time it could be yes to beans and no to poultry," he said. "What's amazing about this trip is that (U.S. Rep. Solomon P. Ortiz, D-Corpus Christi) was able to open doors, always humble, but proud to represent South Texas agricultural interests. Michael had the knowledge of the business and the specifics of numbers and figures. It was a successful trip."

[bobbylien]

Tell that to the thousands of Cubans who risk life and limb to leave Cuba. I spent several weeks in the Florida Straight while in the Navy picking Cubans out of the water. We found many rafts more than 90 miles out in the Atlantic (going the wrong way), sans occupants. The ones we did recover said "they'd rather face the monsters of the sea than the monster Fidel Castro." Anyway, the Port of Corpus Christi seems to be defying the embargo anyway.
Many of those trying to flee Cuba are looking for jobs and such. I'm not defending Fidel, all dictatorships are evil and he should be overthrown. I'm just asking why we should punish the people of Cuba for the crimes of its dictator over 40 years ago.

[Mayberry]

I'm just asking why we should punish the people of Cuba for the crimes of its dictator over 40 years ago. Because we have to uphold our policies and beliefs. America has become too wishy-washy. Communism is wrong, and supporting it in ANY way is wrong.

[bobbylien]

So we are to let the Cuban people suffer because we disagree with their economic policy? Allowing our private companies to trade with them doesnt mean we support them. We should still try to get them to get rid of their dictatorship and install democracy. Let them decide their economic policy for themselves. Isolating them is just going to make them go to someone like Hugo Chavez for aid, is that what we want? A country has a right to be communist if they want to. Communism will fail and capitolism will prevail over the long run. Communism and democracy can exist together, so long as a country has democracy they can always change.

Putting people before politics is my policy, this policy is torturing the Cuban people just to make an example of Fidel. Thats wrong. When Fidel dies, the country will erupt into civil war and if we don't keep strong ties, another anti-american or possibly a pawn of Chavez will gain power in Cuba. This policy will lead to nothing but another dictator. We trade with China and they are a "communist" nation. Why not Cuba? Because we are more powerfull than they are, thats why. Its wrong, let them choose their own policy for enonomics in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Its just stupid to make things in their country worse because we don't like their style of government.

[Alonzo]

Because we have to uphold our policies and beliefs. America has become too wishy-washy. Communism is wrong, and supporting it in ANY way is wrong.


Actually opening the gates of capitalism on china has done a pretty good job at attacking communism (unless you're more concerned with th label tan practice), while closing the gates of capitalism hasn't helped cuba and north korea one bit.

And it makes no sense to hold ideological principles higher than the well being of people.

[Mayberry]

So we are to let the Cuban people suffer because we disagree with their economic policy? Oh, my heart bleeds purple peanut butter. I could care less about the rest of the world. Why is it always the US that has to save the world? If we quit sending all our money overseas, maybe the deficit everyone keeps whining about would be smaller? If YOU would like to send YOUR money to CUBA, or anywhere else for that matter, be my guest. Adopt a starving pygmy. Taxpayer money, however, should not be used to support anyone else, much less a dictator, who the only reason no longer poses any threat is because the Soviet Union is dead, and he no longer has the means to do so. We trade with China and they are a "communist" nation. Which is also inherently wrong, and I've said so. The only reason we do is because of corporate greed, and we all know that corporations run our government. let them choose their own policy for economics in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. Fine. In turn, they should also let their citizens choose their own leader, and weather or not they wish to remain in the country. Cubans don't have that choice. Hey, I'd like to see a free Cuba, it's a beautiful country and would make a great Caribbean resort.

[Mayberry]

And it makes no sense to hold ideological principles higher than the well being of people. So we should have gotten help for Hitler instead of bombing him back to hell?

[Alonzo]

Did you read the last part of the comment, "people"? An embargo on cuba is not going to bring down his government, it's not going to help the people. And I'm not sure, and I may be wrong here, but I seem to remember something about the nazi's killing millions of people. That's a little more significant.

[Mayberry]

and I may be wrong here, but I seem to remember something about the nazi's killing millions of people. That's a little more significant.
Ah, but you said we shouldn't put policy before people. Now you've adjusted your stance for a different scenario. You see, we're not that different. I think we should take care of people too. Our own. And we should take care of them by keeping our jobs and our money here at home, so Athena and her gang can all have cozy jobs. So we end the Cuban embargo. All that means is that we will have to send millions in "humanitarian aid", even more American companies will abandon ship and set up shop in Cuba to take advantage of pitifully cheap labor..... So the viscious cycle continues.

[bobbylien]

So we are to let the Cuban people suffer because we disagree with their economic policy? Oh, my heart bleeds purple peanut butter. I could care less about the rest of the world. Why is it always the US that has to save the world? If we quit sending all our money overseas, maybe the deficit everyone keeps whining about would be smaller? If YOU would like to send YOUR money to CUBA, or anywhere else for that matter, be my guest.

Alright, stop making assumptions. I do not think we should give cuba ANY aid. But we should allow our businesses to have dealings with Cuba and allow Americans to visit on vacations which would greatly help their economy. I never said ANYTHING about sending money overseas. We don't have to save the world, but when one of our policies is directly causing the problem, we should stop that policy. Just because you want to make others suffer so you can have an easier life doesn't mean the rest of us do. You make me sick.

[bobbylien]

and I may be wrong here, but I seem to remember something about the nazi's killing millions of people. That's a little more significant.
Ah, but you said we shouldn't put policy before people. Now you've adjusted your stance for a different scenario. You see, we're not that different. I think we should take care of people too. Our own. And we should take care of them by keeping our jobs and our money here at home, so Athena and her gang can all have cozy jobs. So we end the Cuban embargo. All that means is that we will have to send millions in "humanitarian aid", even more American companies will abandon ship and set up shop in Cuba to take advantage of pitifully cheap labor..... So the viscious cycle continues.

Why would american companies setup shop in Cuba where wages are much higher than the many other places they could setup shop. We can't place a trade embargo on a country just so our companies won't move jobs to that country anyways.

[bobbylien]

So we should have gotten help for Hitler instead of bombing him back to hell?

Aah!! The Hitler comparison.. I was waiting for that to come up :rolleyes: . Fidel has greatly reduced his military strength over the past few decades, he doesn't want to conquer countries, just run his own country. Hitler wanted to conquer the world, Fidel just wants to run his country.

[Alonzo]

Ah, but you said we shouldn't put policy before people. Now you've adjusted your stance for a different scenario. You see, we're not that different. I think we should take care of people too. Our own. And we should take care of them by keeping our jobs and our money here at home, so Athena and her gang can all have cozy jobs. So we end the Cuban embargo. All that means is that we will have to send millions in "humanitarian aid", even more American companies will abandon ship and set up shop in Cuba to take advantage of pitifully cheap labor..... So the viscious cycle continues.


Actually, cuba has very low malnutrition rates, especially when compared against mexico, argentina, jamaica etc. Humanitarian aid should not be banned by an economic embargo, and cuba is hardly the best place to send it anyway.

But there is no comparison with germany. The government depended on the support of the people, and the nazi's knew that. There is no better example than rosenstrasse, when the nazi's released jewish husbands of german women because of protests, even to the point of releasing the ones already sent to auschwitz. They greatly feared letting public opinion turn against them, even if it was a relatively small segment of the public. Castro does not need the support of the people to stay in power.

The nazi's came to power in part because of the harsh restrictions placed on germany after WW1, Castro is staying in power despite the harsh conditions placed on cuba since he came to power (when 40 years of embargo's go nowhere, you pretty much lost).

Castro is not engaging in genocidal conduct, any war or embargo is to harm civilians much more than castro is. The nazi's were going to kill any jew, homosexual, roma, and most of the slavs they found, let alone whoever else they didn't like.

Your comparison between castro and hitler is horrible.

[Mayberry]

You make me sick. Aw, come on now. I just think we should stop worrying about everyone else when we have so many problems of our own. Your comparison between castro and hitler is horrible. What's the difference? Both were tyrannical dictators. The only difference was Hitler's genocidal tendencies. Isn't ruling people by terror and oppression just as bad? Personally I'd rather be dead than oppressed.

[Alonzo]

What's the difference? Both were tyrannical dictators. The only difference was Hitler's genocidal tendencies. Isn't ruling people by terror and oppression just as bad? Personally I'd rather be dead than oppressed.


Well, "rule by terror" wouldn't exactly describe cuba, more like north korea. I've never been to cuba personally, but in my time in Canada I met many who had made multiple trips to cuba (medical students learning about the health care system, attending 3rd world conferences, and just plain tourists) and dealt with people from cuba. Fear, restriction of freedom etc. yes, but not really terror. Batista (the guy we supported) used terror. Batista was just as oppressive in terms of freedon, but (unlike Castro) did nothing for the poor, and he sent death squads to torture and kill opponents. People, including children, were publicly tortured and executed and their corpses left hanging in the streets for days as a warning to others. That's terror. And that was our ally.

Though I find it funny, and somewhat disturbing, that you appear to dismiss "genocidal tendencies" as a trivial distinction.

[Mayberry]

Though I find it funny, and somewhat disturbing, that you appear to dismiss "genocidal tendencies" as a trivial distinction. Not trivial, merely the only difference. Tyranny is just as bad as murder. If you really want to help Cubans, send them rifles and ammo. As I said, the hundreds of Cubans we rescued from the ocean didn't think too much of your boy Castro. Ask the thousands of Cubans in south Florida what they think of Castro. Why do you not want a free, democratic Cuba?

[bobbylien]

Not trivial, merely the only difference.

How about Hitlers tendency to invade other countries and start wars? Is that not a difference?


Why do you not want a free, democratic Cuba?

He said that he wanted a free, democratic Cuba. Start reading his posts.
I don't like Fidel at all, he should be overthrown. I just don't think an embargo is the best way to deal with this situation. Castro isn't persuing nuclear weapons and he has greatly downsized his military over the past few decades. I would rather live under Castro than some of the other leaders the USA supports. The fact is that the only problem we have with cuba is that they are communists. We aren't living in the cold war era anymore, yank the trade sanctions now. Once again I must say that their economic policy has nothing to do with democracy. That is a seperate issue.

We are getting off topic, why do you believe we should keep the embargo on Cuba?

[lily]

bobbylien


Alright, stop making assumptions. I do not think we should give cuba ANY aid. But we should allow our businesses to have dealings with Cuba and allow Americans to visit on vacations which would greatly help their economy.
Actually Americans can and do vacation in Florida.....they just have to go by way of Canada to get there.

Personally, other than plain old spite, I can't see any reason for the embargo on Cuba to have lasted this long.

[lily]

Mayberry
As I said, the hundreds of Cubans we rescued from the ocean didn't think too much of your boy Castro. Ask the thousands of Cubans in south Florida what they think of Castro.

I was just going to let this go, but this is the second time that you mentioned the Cubans on the boat. Just curious, I would imagine that the thousands of Cubans in South Florida, not to mention those on the boat are illegals. You're ok with that?

[Alonzo]

If you really want to help Cubans, send them rifles and ammo.

Yes, war cures everything. So you end up like russia, after a few years the government starts sliding back towards dictatorship, except they don't even pretend to care about the poor anymore. Plus all the rampant crime and tremendously powerful criminal organizations.

Oh ya, except with war we'll end up with many dead, and the infrastructure destroyed. That's a huge improvement.

the hundreds of Cubans we rescued from the ocean didn't think too much of your boy Castro. Ask the thousands of Cubans in south Florida what they think of Castro.

My boy castro? :rolleyes:

And you have people all over the world fleeing to neighboring wealthier nations. Economic prosperity (not just ensuring basic needs, which cuba does unlike some other 3rd world countries) is a major reason. With the economy the way it is, you have a highly educated population that can't do much except become doctors or go into the government. The population has skills they can't use much.

Economics, and extreme repression (the kind seen in north korea for example) is what tends to cause citizens to flee in significant numbers. Lack of freedom, as seen in cuba, is a reason, but is the primary reason only in a minority of cases.

Why do you not want a free, democratic Cuba?


Bobby answered that almost exactly as I did. In short, read my posts.

[Mayberry]

I would imagine that the thousands of Cubans in South Florida, not to mention those on the boat are illegals. You're ok with that? Uh, they are legal. Ever hear of wet foot/ dry foot? Besides, the people we picked up were deposited on a Coast Guard vessel, processed, and returned to Cuba via Guantanamo. They have to make landfall to claim refugee status here. Yes, war cures everything. So you end up like russia, after a few years the government starts sliding back towards dictatorship, except they don't even pretend to care about the poor anymore. Plus all the rampant crime and tremendously powerful criminal organizations.

Oh ya, except with war we'll end up with many dead, and the infrastructure destroyed. That's a huge improvement. So you say. And we can argue back and forth all day about Castro. He's a dictator. The only reason he's no longer a tyrannical bastard is because he is getting old and no longer has the support of the Soviet Union. If YOU would read MY posts, you would have understood that I think ANY dictator is bad. Period.

[lily]

Mayberry

[quote]Uh, they are legal. Ever hear of wet foot/ dry foot? Besides, the people we picked up were deposited on a Coast Guard vessel, processed, and returned to Cuba via Guantanamo. They have to make landfall to claim refugee status here. [quote]
Well.......I mainly was referring to the thousands you mentioned in Florida. If you say they are all here legally.......I guess I'm going to have to take your word on it.

[Alonzo]

they are technically here legally. If they get caught in the water then they're illegal and sent back, if they make it to shore then they're legal. Basically, anyone who can outrun our patrols gets rewarded with legal status.

But, up until they set foot on land, they are illegal like all those running the border.

He's a dictator. The only reason he's no longer a tyrannical bastard is because he is getting old and no longer has the support of the Soviet Union. If YOU would read MY posts, you would have understood that I think ANY dictator is bad. Period.

The point is that you are so uniform in your opinion. Every dictator (well, the ones you mention) should be treated the same way, and the same response should be taken against them. There's no grey there.

[Mayberry]

The point is that you are so uniform in your opinion. What's wrong with that? It's called being consistent. I don't flip flop around with every new public opinion poll like some people do. I have my principles, and they are unchanging, barring any major calamity.

[Nathan Brazil]

The purpose of our boycott on Cuba was to reverse the revolution. That failed.

There's no logical purpose in maintaining it today, hasn't been for years, except in the minds of politicians seeking to appease the minority of Cubano's that give a crap and the majority of red necks who are full of crap, and moneyed minority of sugar growers in the US who don't want to see what Cuban sugar will do to domestic prices.

Castro's enmity for the US can be traced directly back to mistakes made by Eisenhower and Kennedy and perpetuated by all following presidents.

Opening trade to Cuba will:

Remove a link in the chain of slavery binding the US people. If we're a free people we should be free to travel and free to spend. Why should anyone have to break a law to buy a good cigar?

Sugar prices come down, the prices of half the processed foods drop, too. That's a benefit.

The travel industry will benefit also.

[Nathan Brazil]

Mayberry

[quote]Uh, they are legal. Ever hear of wet foot/ dry foot? Besides, the people we picked up were deposited on a Coast Guard vessel, processed, and returned to Cuba via Guantanamo. They have to make landfall to claim refugee status here. [quote]
Well.......I mainly was referring to the thousands you mentioned in Florida. If you say they are all here legally.......I guess I'm going to have to take your word on it.


The law is written so that Cubans who make it to the United States are automatically granted asylum status and are thus legal immigrants. That's why we have to catch them in the water.

[Alonzo]

What's wrong with that? It's called being consistent. I don't flip flop around with every new public opinion poll like some people do. I have my principles, and they are unchanging, barring any major calamity.


The world does not work that way. Communism is a system, but the communism seen in the soviet union, china, vietnam, cuba, north korea etc. are all different. Hell, China fought a devastating border war with vietnam, and they almost went to war with the u.s.s.r.

Same with dictatorships, it's a way to rule a country, yet you wouldn't treat saddam and musharaf the same.

Consistency is desirable when you react to similar situations with similar responses since that's what they call for. It has no benefit to respond the same whenever a certain characteristic is met, such as a dictatorship, since the two situations may still be worlds apart, despite the common denominator.

[Mayberry]

It has no benefit to respond the same whenever a certain characteristic is met, such as a dictatorship, since the two situations may still be worlds apart, despite the common denominator. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. A dictator is a dictator is a dictator. Weather he's a "nice guy" or not has no bearing whatsoever. If everyone in Cuba is happy and they want to keep their dictator, fine, I could care less. But since they seem to want to leave the country, oh and by the way, aren't ALLOWED to, I reckon the guy should be done away with. End of story.

[Alonzo]

So, in your mind, Musharaf of Pakistan and Hitler should be treated the same way?

[Mayberry]

So, in your mind, Musharaf of Pakistan and Hitler should be treated the same way? Sure, why not. Did the Pakistanis vote this guy in? No. Get rid of him.

[lily]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14126537/

HAVANA - Fidel Castro temporarily relinquished his presidential powers to
his brother Raul on Monday night and told Cubans he underwent surgery.

The Cuban leader said he had suffered gastrointestinal bleeding, apparently
due to stress from recent public appearances in Argentina and Cuba,
according to the letter read live on television by his secretary, Carlos
Valenciaga.

"The operation obligates me to undertake several weeks of rest," the letter
read, adding that extreme stress "had provoked in me a sharp intestinal
crisis with sustained bleeding that obligated me to undergo a complicated
surgical procedure."

[Mayberry]

They said on the news last night that Cubans in South Florida cheered the news that Castro is ill.

[lily]

Yes, I saw the cheering on TV. I dare say, some where, some place, some one is writing that it upsets them to see that.......just as we wrote that it upset us to see people cheering, when some thing bad happens to us.

........but then it isn't the Cubans in Florida, that should be cheering. I would think that they are pretty safe......unless of course, they were cheering for the family left behind.

From what the news says, though......his brother isn't much better. As I said at the begining of this thread, it's waaaaaay past time to bury the hatchet with Cuba.

On a totally side note.......damn.....has anyone noticed the condition of the classic cars they are driving?!?

[Mayberry]

has anyone noticed the condition of the classic cars they are driving?!? Yes, it's sad. I saw a '54 Chevy that was barely recognizeable.

[lily]

Don't know the year or make of the one I saw, but it was pristine!