Poor People Are Lazy

[ECW]

Loudmouth Glenn Beck Strikes Again.
From Publishers Weekly
In this appraisal of America's woes, conservative TV and talk-radio host Beck (The Real America) lays lighthearted siege to everything that makes the world worse. [P]olitical correctness is the biggest threat this nation faces today, he declares, as it makes us prey for Islamic fundamentalists, renders taboo the roots of our economic troubles (poor people are, in fact, lazy, he argues) and creates rampant distortion in the media. Beck goes paragraph for paragraph with global-warming alarmist Al Gore, merrily slaughtering the sacred cows of the environmentalist crowd. Not sated by the hide of the former vice president, he goes after everything and everyone from poverty to perverts, offering solutions to these and other problems (e.g., the key to success in the capitalist system is to believe in it). While often informative, as in his chapter on global warming, Beck is sometimes tedious, particularly when dealing with Islam and education (France is literally teetering on the edge, and our biggest ally, England, is about to be turned inside out as well). He's at his best when most absurd, and funniest when he's his own target (the father of four is little more than a flesh-and-bone jungle gym). This should make a good read for conservatives. This should make a good read for conservatives. (http://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Book-Solutions-Biggest-Problems/dp/1416552197)

Just when you think neocons are starting to get it, one of them spouts off with some stupidshit like this. Talk show hosts who pollute the airwaves with stereotypes are the laziest punks around because it's obvious that they cannot see people as individuals. Another conservative talking point shot in the head.

[Torrid]

Personally people that don't have to drive to better their financial situation would probably in fact be lazy. I don't think he's far off the mark here. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to be taxed to oblivion to pay for some lazy shmuck that won't try to find a better job. If you want something bad enough, work for it, that's very much what this country is supposed to be about.

[Yarp]

Personally people that don't have to drive to better their financial situation would probably in fact be lazy. I don't think he's far off the mark here. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to be taxed to oblivion to pay for some lazy shmuck that won't try to find a better job. If you want something bad enough, work for it, that's very much what this country is supposed to be about.

Drug abuse, and domestic violence is a major cause of being poor.

[Torrid]

Personally people that don't have to drive to better their financial situation would probably in fact be lazy. I don't think he's far off the mark here. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to be taxed to oblivion to pay for some lazy shmuck that won't try to find a better job. If you want something bad enough, work for it, that's very much what this country is supposed to be about.

Drug abuse, and domestic violence is a major cause of being poor.


IE, bad decisions. We shouldn't have to bail someone out because they can't use common sense.

[Mia]

Sure, kick those women and kids to the curb because Mom wasn't a psychic. Many abusive men do not start until the woman is dependent. Then for some it is too late.

[Torrid]

That's what the family circle and friends are for if they're able to help. It shouldn't be the governments job.

[Elrathin]

That's what the family circle and friends are for if they're able to help. It shouldn't be the governments job.


And if the women doesn't have any family or friends? Abusive men like to isolate the woman. Thus the dependence on the man.

[PatrickHenry]

Glenn Beck, pfft!

That idiot defends the official story on 9/11...

[ViolaLee]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.

[lily]

And if the women doesn't have any family or friends? Abusive men like to isolate the woman. Thus the dependence on the man.



What the hell are you talking about El..........she should have aborted the baby, taken her beating like a woman, and gone out and earn SOMETHING.......even if she has to prostitute herself.......Torrid and all the rest of the Republicans are tired of it!!

Oh and while she's at it.......she needs to get gramma out and working and that lazy sister of her's that's in the wheelchair.

[Torrid]

Well then put the jackass in jail. Even though I know someone will grill me for this, these are my honest opinions. A single mother situation like this leads me to question the decisions of said person. Don't we all know that we shouldn't bring children into an unhealthy situation? People need to have ownership of their decisions and while some things happen we can't foresee, common sense and better decisions tend to lead to a higher road and it's good to know how to just get out.

[Elrathin]

Sorry, but I really think you need to spend time in a battered women shelters. These men abuse the women AFTER they have kids in many cases. It's not something that is planned or even seen in a lot of situations.

[Buck Laser]

I was wondering where all this shit about poor people "making bad choices" was coming from--it's appeared on other forums I visit, and it's the kind of crap I've heard so much it drives me friggin' crazy. There's not a single one of us immune from the kind of stuff that lays people low. All it takes is an accident, an unexpected illness, a layoff, or a death in the family, and the best of us suddenly find out just what it's like to be vulnerable.

I get so God damned sick and tired of hearing conservatives rattle on about how "responsible" and "results-oriented" or "faithful," as if that were somehow the only reason they happen to be well off--as if God smiled on them because they're such good people. That's the subtext in the lying crap loons like Glenn Beck spew out, and people just lap it up because it gives them a chance to feel superior and smug.

I've seen poverty, and I've worked my ass off to help people change their own circumstances. Like me, a good many of them make some wrong choices. Luckily for me, my bad choices haven't exactly resulted in disaster. But that doesn't help them. Yeah, I know every one of you sanctified conservatives can point to some example of somebody who's lazy, or drunk, or stupid, or just plain bad. I know they're there, too, but that is NOT a justification for saying that if people are poor it must be their own fault. I wish people would quit making fun of other people's misfortunes and give some thought to the idea that as long as the poor keep getting screwed, we all get screwed. Unfortunately, it seems most of the people here are way too selfish for that kind of insight.

[Torrid]

Then it should be a system run by donations and volunteers. I know some of the money comes from donations and there are volunteers that are involved, but the government shouldn't have a part in it. I'm not against donations and that's for sure. These organizations should be handled by people by that have a vested interest in it, because as we all know if there is a drive for it, a lot more gets done when the government isn't controlling it and budgeting it.

Glenn Beck isn't saying they shouldn't have help, he like I do not want to see our tax dollars spent on it being controlled by the government. There are much better ways to get the job done.

[lily]

Well then put the jackass in jail. Even though I know someone will grill me for this, these are my honest opinions.

...........and have MY tax dollars spent for his 3 squares and a cot?

[Mia]

I was wondering where all this shit about poor people "making bad choices" was coming from--it's appeared on other forums I visit, and it's the kind of crap I've heard so much it drives me friggin' crazy. There's not a single one of us immune from the kind of stuff that lays people low. All it takes is an accident, an unexpected illness, a layoff, or a death in the family, and the best of us suddenly find out just what it's like to be vulnerable.



That is so true! Unless one is extremely wealthy, one is not immune to life's unexpected events.

Some of these windshields are going to find themselves as bugs one day,,,,and sing a different tune.[hr]
Well then put the jackass in jail.


That's more expensive to taxpayers than housing for the women and kids. Make him work, and garnish his pay, though - I'm for that.

[moses2792796]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


Don't being Christian moralism into this debate, it will only serve to obscure the issues at hand.

A healthy society would not continue to support people who cannot support themselves, these people are parasites.

[Tharagor]

Personally people that don't have to drive to better their financial situation would probably in fact be lazy. I don't think he's far off the mark here. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to be taxed to oblivion to pay for some lazy shmuck that won't try to find a better job. If you want something bad enough, work for it, that's very much what this country is supposed to be about.


There will always be poor. It's impossible to avoid. It's a mathematical guarantee.

A just society helps the poor.

[Elrathin]

Don't being Christian moralism into this debate, it will only serve to obscure the issues at hand.

It's at the heart of the matter for those that call themselves Christians.

A healthy society would not continue to support people who cannot support themselves, these people are parasites.
[/quote]

A very cold and heartless attitude. I'd suggest you too go visit a battered womens shelter and then afterwards call those women "parasites" and see what type of response you get if you have the guts.

Or even visit a homeless shelter and do the same thing. It's easy to sit at your computer and call people "parasites" when you know nothing of their situations. Do some people abuse the system? Sure, but not all and the attitude you show reflects that of someone I definitely believe has never talked to some of these people.

[Tharagor]

Drug abuse, and domestic violence is a major cause of being poor.


You don't suppose that they might be symptoms and not causes?

Can you provide any evidence and logic to support your position?

[cronic]

Glenn Beck hasn't got a clue... I'm poor and I'm not lazy.. not alot can be done tho when walking is a chore in itself.. Once again Beck proves he has a big mouth and a small brain..

[underdawg]

Most poor people that know tend to be the most hardest working people that I know of. For some people it is not laziness but pure exhaustion from working too much. There are those who are perhaps lazy, but I do not think the vast majority of the poor are that way.Some of them have two or three jobs just to pay the bills and still have trouble. It all comes down to opportunity and a good education. Not everyone started out with a supportive family and a good education. If the government took just a small portion of what it spends on the military and educated its public, then perhaps we wouldn't have nearly as many people in need.

[moses2792796]

Don't being Christian moralism into this debate, it will only serve to obscure the issues at hand.

It's at the heart of the matter for those that call themselves Christians.

A healthy society would not continue to support people who cannot support themselves, these people are parasites.


A very cold and heartless attitude. I'd suggest you too go visit a battered womens shelter and then afterwards call those women "parasites" and see what type of response you get if you have the guts.

Or even visit a homeless shelter and do the same thing. It's easy to sit at your computer and call people "parasites" when you know nothing of their situations. Do some people abuse the system? Sure, but not all and the attitude you show reflects that of someone I definitely believe has never talked to some of these people.
[/quote]

I have known people like this first hand, 99% of them will never make a contribution to society no matter how much help they are given.

[Torrid]

Most poor people that know tend to be the most hardest working people that I know of. For some people it is not laziness but pure exhaustion from working too much. There are those who are perhaps lazy, but I do not think the vast majority of the poor are that way.Some of them have two or three jobs just to pay the bills and still have trouble. It all comes down to opportunity and a good education. Not everyone started out with a supportive family and a good education. If the government took just a small portion of what it spends on the military and educated its public, then perhaps we wouldn't have nearly as many people in need.


We already have free education, paid by the tax payer. Look, the foundation is set by this education and this is one thing I do agree with, we need a system such as this to educate the population. Are you suggesting we should pay for college too? I understand the funding for the current schooling system is a little lacking and could use some work, especially better pay for teachers, but paying for college isn't the answer.

Also, from my previous posts, I'm not saying there aren't people that fall on hard times and need some help. What I'm saying is we need separate systems that are not government ran to get the job done. There are a number of people that take advantage of this government assistance because they think it's the easy way out instead of trying to better themselves. I'm not saying all of them, but there are a few out there. It shouldn't be a job of the government, it should be a community of people that feel strongly about it donating their time and money to help instead of the government taking our money from us and placing it where they feel is necessary. We all know when you have a group of people that have a vested interest in their cause that a whole lot more gets done that when it's just some other government subsidiary.

I'm not saying take that guy and keep him in jail, but if he's battering a woman or anyone for that matter, I would assume he would see at least a little jail time. What happens to him after that is up to the judge's decision. If they garnish his wages to take care of the woman and children, so be it, he'll see that his actions can cost him money.

[Elrathin]

I have known people like this first hand, 99% of them will never make a contribution to society no matter how much help they are given.


Maybe for YOU that number is 99% of the people of the people YOU know. However, for me I have seen that figure far far less, more like 10% if that. You need to get out more from your sheltered life if 99% is your number.

What it takes is a society that cares and work with each other. You ever do any volunteer work?

[moses2792796]

I volunteer with organisations that actually have goals beyond egotistic moral charity work that serves only to perpetuate problems. Our society breeds parasites because it supports them make your moral stand if you will, at the end of the day you're not helping anyone.

[Elrathin]

make your moral stand if you will, at the end of the day you're not helping anyone.


I've helped quite a bit of people thank you. And many are doing just fine despite your "parasite" attitude.

So where do you volunteer at? The country club?

[AnnEsthesia]

Wow, so you think the women at the domestic abuse shelters who left their homes in the middle of the night with their children and were spirited away to another state with only the clothing on their backs because their husband would track them down and kill them are... parasites?

[moses2792796]

Don't try your sentimental garbage on me, you can tug at my heartstrings all you like, I'm not going to sacrifice realism. No they're not parasites, they're victims of a society that breeds parasites. Eg. husband who comes home from work having no sense of purpose or direction in his life thanks to a society with no culture, gets drunk to try and forget about his problems then takes out his anger on the wife.
Some people are naturally parasitic, most of the others become that way after realising their lives are directionless, they simply don't have the intelligence to understand the problems in modern civilisation and so they wonder why they aren't happy chasing after paper tokens and leading a 'respectable' life.

Women suffer more for the modern decadence, but that;s not what this thread is about, it's about whether or not the government should be supporting those who can't support themselves. The answer is no, the support should come from the community, because they are able to recognise whether the person has any worth. America however has lost any sense of community, other than an anonymous dedication to the perpetuation of moral abstractions, the real manifestation of which is materialistic consumerism.

[AnnEsthesia]

So what happens when you "cut the governmental purse-strings"? As it is charities are stretched to the maximum. Do you really think they will suddenly have more donations to take the place of all the government aid? Do you think all the people who's taxes go to helping these people will take that money and give it back in the form of charity?

[HumanBeast]

If society had no blue collar people, who would do the lumberjacking and the bricklayering? Faries?

[lily]

If society had no blue collar people, who would do the lumberjacking and the bricklayering? Faries?


Illegals.[hr]
So what happens when you "cut the governmental purse-strings"? As it is charities are stretched to the maximum. Do you really think they will suddenly have more donations to take the place of all the government aid? Do you think all the people who's taxes go to helping these people will take that money and give it back in the form of charity?


Playing the devils advocate here........those donations are tax deductable.

[AnnEsthesia]

Yes, and the people who are looking for tax donations, already do so. Do you think they will take all of the money they will no longer be paying as taxes and suddenly use it for charity? Remember, their tax liability will not change, since you are taxed on your gross income, which will remain the same, no matter how much or little you are taxed.

[lily]

The sad fact is when Reagan cut funding of mental institutions, he put many of them out on the street.........and now it's those same "Reagan Conservatives" that are complaining about the problem.

For some, like my sister it worked out great, as she was moved to a group home and still is able to clollect on disability funds, only after my parents made the agonizing decision to turn her care over to the state........for others they were put out on the streets.[/i]

[apdst]

and have MY tax dollars spent for his 3 squares and a cot?

I'm appalled by, too. I say we just execute the bastard.

Domestic violence doesn't make one poor. There are plenty of rich folks that beat the shit out their spouses. IMO, domestic violence is upperclass homes is under-reported, so there are probably MORE cases of spousel abuse among rich folks.

Not all poor people are afflicted with something. There are many poor folks that just don't have the ambition to do better.

[Elrathin]

I'll make a deal for those that don't like their taxes used for Welfare. I'll trade, you guys pay for the Iraq war then. I don't like MY tax dollars going for a war I don't agree with.

[brien]

Perhaps some who accept charity from the government, which is funded of course by taxpayers, should be obliged to work for that which they accept to support themselves at the behest of the taxpayer.

For example, those who accept federally subsidized housing, or food stamps, should be obliged to volunteer perhaps 10 hours a week cleaning public buildings like courthouses, schools, or mass transit stations. Able bodied people could clean buses, trains and other government owned vehicles. Healthy people could be used working in the parks doing landscaping. There are any number of public work projects that they could participate in to earn their support from the taxpayer. This would also support the dignity of the recipient because they would feel more like they were earning their way rather than simply sliding along on a free ride.

This would save taxpayer money that funds cleaning services, or landscaping by government employees, and also provide an incentive for the recipient to either move off of the subsidy, or remain involved through their own efforts to do a good job. It is a win - win situation for both the recipient and the taxpayers. Of course there would be exceptions for the physically disabled, but the healthy who benefit from the taxpayers' subsidies should be contributing and giving back for something they get from the taxpayer.

[potter]

So what happens when you "cut the governmental purse-strings"? As it is charities are stretched to the maximum. Do you really think they will suddenly have more donations to take the place of all the government aid? Do you think all the people who's taxes go to helping these people will take that money and give it back in the form of charity?


If the Charities cannot or will not help them, and they are unable to work more than 20 hours a day at minimum wage and make ends meet, then they will have to turn to crime to support themselves.

Yup, they'll be breaking into your house in order to feed themselves...then they'll get arrested and the government will spend 40 grand a year providing them with 3 squares, health care, and housing.

Then the state will have to house and feed, educate and provide health care for their children, no telling how much that would cost....

I don't know AE....with average wages not keeping up with inflation, high paying jobs going away, and costs continuing to rise...no telling

[AlanC]

If they are healthy enough to be breaking into houses, they are healthy enough to work more than 20 hours a week. :D

[Buck Laser]

If they are healthy enough to be breaking into houses, they are healthy enough to work more than 20 hours a week. :D

I'd guess that most people would like to work more than 20 hours a week. Trouble is that the businesses that hire low income people rarely let them work more than 20 hours a week, because then they'd have to pay benefits. Everyone knows that benefits are creeping socialism.

[AlanC]

Nah, benefits don't start until after 39 hours. You are still part time until then.

But the slow, the lazy, the stupid and the inferm.....those are the crooks we usually catch.

Its the smart able ones that are tricky.

[apdst]

Trouble is that the businesses that hire low income people rarely let them work more than 20 hours a week, because then they'd have to pay benefits. Everyone knows that benefits are creeping socialism.

You say, "low income people", like it's something genetic...LOL!

They're, "low income people", because they have low income jobs. If they had middle, or high income jobs, they would no longer be, "low income people", and the genetic chain would be broken, I reckon...LOL!

[AnnEsthesia]

Nah, benefits don't start until after 39 hours. You are still part time until then.

But the slow, the lazy, the stupid and the inferm.....those are the crooks we usually catch.

Its the smart able ones that are tricky.


Depends where you work. At my job, full time = 35 hours a week.

[Torrid]

If society had no blue collar people, who would do the lumberjacking and the bricklayering? Faries?


So you're saying all blue collar people are poor? I'm blue collar, but it's skilled labor. Poor to me are people flipping burgers full time. It also shows me that someone needs to apply themselves if they want to make more money. I only make around $40k a year and I live comfortably. Overspending causes the problems. If $25k-$30k is poor to you, then you must have a delusional view of our society. I would think anything less than $20k a year would probably not be skilled labor and could fall under the catagory of lack of applying one's self.

[Buck Laser]

Nah, benefits don't start until after 39 hours. You are still part time until then.

But the slow, the lazy, the stupid and the inferm.....those are the crooks we usually catch.

Its the smart able ones that are tricky.


Depends where you work. At my job, full time = 35 hours a week.

I had a job like that back in the 70s. Trouble was that it required travel all over the US, and I rarely got away with less than about 60 hours when I was on the road. But in the office, it was nice to come in at 9, take a leisurely lunch, and leave at 5.

[AnnEsthesia]

Yep. When I worked that before my kids, it was nice. I worked 8:30 - 4:30 with an hour lunch. Those were the days. :) Now I work 10-5 the days I go to the office and eat at my desk, lol.

[Torrid]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


All able bodied people have the same opportunities in this great country. It's how you use them that determines where you get in life.

[AnnEsthesia]

That is not true, Torrid. Not everyone has the same opportunities. How can you even say that?

[potter]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


All able bodied people have the same opportunities in this great country. It's how you use them that determines where you get in life.



I agree absolutely...

What do you do with those that arent' able bodied or able minded?

[Torrid]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


All able bodied people have the same opportunities in this great country. It's how you use them that determines where you get in life.



I agree absolutely...

What do you do with those that arent' able bodied or able minded?


They are taken care of and supported by their family, friends, and other non-government ran organizations that work on only donations and volunteer work for those that do not have supportive family and friends. We shouldn't have a government to moderate such things if we took care of our own.

[potter]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


All able bodied people have the same opportunities in this great country. It's how you use them that determines where you get in life.



I agree absolutely...

What do you do with those that arent' able bodied or able minded?


They are taken care of and supported by their family, friends, and other non-government ran organizations that work on only donations and volunteer work for those that do not have supportive family and friends. We shouldn't have a government to moderate such things if we took care of our own.


In a perfect society....

But what about those who have been abandoned or have no one?

[Torrid]

A civilized society takes care of it's underpriviliged people. What would Jesus do? I always wonder how conservatives can call themselves Christians.


All able bodied people have the same opportunities in this great country. It's how you use them that determines where you get in life.



I agree absolutely...

What do you do with those that arent' able bodied or able minded?


They are taken care of and supported by their family, friends, and other non-government ran organizations that work on only donations and volunteer work for those that do not have supportive family and friends. We shouldn't have a government to moderate such things if we took care of our own.


In a perfect society....

But what about those who have been abandoned or have no one?


Did you miss the last part? There would still be a support group for these people that isn't getting government funding. We shouldn't make taxpayer dollars pay for these things. It should be up to those who can afford to donate to put their money where they see it fit, which could be done with the money the government collects from us in the form of income taxes if it wasn't taken from us.

[AnnEsthesia]

And yet you are failing to notice that the whole reason the government now takes charge of caring for these people is because it was not happening before?

I find it incredible that people think the charities will a.) have the ability to care for all these people and 2.) be able to raise the money to care for all these people and 3.) that people would truly take the tax money that they are no longer paying and actually give that same money away.

[Torrid]

I'm not saying everyone would, but I know I would enjoy being able to put the money where I see fit. The problem is so many people just aren't involved and they don't bother to pay attention to the world around them, so we come up with a government program to direct it and then our focus just drifts farther. We all become more complacent and the government gains more power and more of our hard earned tax dollars.

Trust me, I understand the reasoning for these government programs, in theory they sound wonderful, but in fixing a problem in this way we're creating another. Why does the typical dimwit vote for a Democrat? Because they tell them they're going to get free stuff, tax the bejeezus out of businesses and the rich, and just what does that accomplish? It drives business overseas, people loose their jobs and drives tax revenue down. You know what, keep these other programs, cut the income tax and watch tax revenue actually increase. This is one catagory where addition by subtraction actually works.

[HumanBeast]

Taxing rich people make them lose their jobs? :lmao:

[Torrid]

That's not what I said. What I said was that taxing the living crap out of businesses lowers their overall revenue and can cause layoffs, slowing product development. Definitely the opposite of what you want when you're trying to grow an economy.

[PatrickHenry]

Why does the typical dimwit vote for a Democrat?
Heh. 'Scuse me for noticing that this sounds a bit partisan and is factually incorrect.

IMO, just as many dimwits vote Republican.

But maybe that's just me...ol' libertarian grampaw...

[underdawg]

The working poor are the hardest working people I know of. Tell me that people in Michigan who lost their jobs at car manufactuing plants or people who have lost their jobs to outsoursing were not hard working? People with mortgages and families that suddenly lost their jobs that were forsed to take lower paying jobs and maybe more than one to support a family. How reasonable is it to assume that a person in this situation could afford to go back to school to be retrained for jobs that did not exist when they first attended school. For you Christian Republicans who think abortion should be illegal, where is the love and compassion for the single women who actually decides not to have an abortion and raise the child on her own?

[Torrid]

Why does the typical dimwit vote for a Democrat?
Heh. 'Scuse me for noticing that this sounds a bit partisan and is factually incorrect.

IMO, just as many dimwits vote Republican.

But maybe that's just me...ol' libertarian grampaw...


I should have clarified that. I mean the typical people that don't pay attention to politics and vote on the promise of free stuff instead of real issues.[hr]
The working poor are the hardest working people I know of. Tell me that people in Michigan who lost their jobs at car manufactuing plants or people who have lost their jobs to outsoursing were not hard working? People with mortgages and families that suddenly lost their jobs that were forsed to take lower paying jobs and maybe more than one to support a family. How reasonable is it to assume that a person in this situation could afford to go back to school to be retrained for jobs that did not exist when they first attended school. For you Christian Republicans who think abortion should be illegal, where is the love and compassion for the single women who actually decides not to have an abortion and raise the child on her own?


I would like to say first that religion has nothing to do with my view on abortion. I am an atheist. I'm not saying bad things don't happen to good people either, but that's why we're supposed to save for a rainy day and make compromises where necessary. Unfortunately life isn't perfect, but the government taking control of it is not the answer.

[lily]

I'm not saying everyone would, but I know I would enjoy being able to put the money where I see fit.

So would I! I keep suggesting on my tax forms that they but boxes where I'd like my tax money to go........but they don't seem to listen. Tell you what........maybe if we both do it, they will?

Why does the typical dimwit vote for a Democrat? Because they tell them they're going to get free stuff, tax the bejeezus out of businesses and the rich, and just what does that accomplish?

I keep asking myself the same question about why people will vote Republican, after they got us in the mess we are in now. Face it, your way hasn't worked.[hr]
The working poor are the hardest working people I know of. Tell me that people in Michigan who lost their jobs at car manufactuing plants or people who have lost their jobs to outsoursing were not hard working? People with mortgages and families that suddenly lost their jobs that were forsed to take lower paying jobs and maybe more than one to support a family. How reasonable is it to assume that a person in this situation could afford to go back to school to be retrained for jobs that did not exist when they first attended school. For you Christian Republicans who think abortion should be illegal, where is the love and compassion for the single women who actually decides not to have an abortion and raise the child on her own?


Hell........we knew the country was in a recession, before anyone was even talking about it. We not only can "brag" about our Great Lakes, we can also brag that you can buy a house in Detroit, cheaper than you can a car.......that is if you can afford either.

Closing of the plants, loss of jobs, people leaving for "greener pastures" doesn't only bring us up to #1 in unemployment, it also closes down entire cities. Without work, you no longer need malls, resteraunts, banks, libraries, gas stations, hair salons, doctors, Mc Donalds, pizza joints, corner bars, quicky marts, mom and pop stores, grocery stores..........well you get the picture. The state is broke, so there is no money for training for new jobs, taxes are already sky high, so no company wants to open up here, and we're so far in the red.........well I think you pretty much get the idea.

It ain't pretty..........and it's coming to a state near you.

[Torrid]

Republicans are losing the conservative view. Why else would McCain be the current front runner. I'm not saying Republicans are perfect and that's why I just consider myself conservative, but you honestly can't tell me the answer to the problem is higher taxes and a step closer to socialism. We're in the mess we're in now from trying to regulate so many things.

Ask yourself why our industries are leaving. It's because with our higher taxes they're forced into other countries to find cheap labor so they don't have to pay the high taxes. This country has gone tax hungry because our government is way too big.

[AnnEsthesia]

No, they go to other countries because they can pay the workers a fraction of what they do here and do not have to pay benefits.

[Mia]

No, they go to other countries because they can pay the workers a fraction of what they do here and do not have to pay benefits.


Exactly :thumbsup:

[Elrathin]

Ask yourself why our industries are leaving. It's because with our higher taxes they're forced into other countries to find cheap labor so they don't have to pay the high taxes. This country has gone tax hungry because our government is way too big.


No it's cause they can pay some poor shmuck $0.50 a day in INDIA instead of minimum wage. Conservatives are about EXPLOITING PEOPLE FOR PROFITS.

[Torrid]

Ask yourself why our industries are leaving. It's because with our higher taxes they're forced into other countries to find cheap labor so they don't have to pay the high taxes. This country has gone tax hungry because our government is way too big.


No it's cause they can pay some poor shmuck $0.50 a day in INDIA instead of minimum wage. Conservatives are about EXPLOITING PEOPLE FOR PROFITS.


I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's conservatives either, you put that label on it. Conservatives put emphasis on sovereignty and moving shop to another country is the opposite. It's greedy people wanting more of the almighty dollar. Look up the North American Forum (NAF) and do some scary reading. It's a bunch of high level elites from large corporations seeking the benefit of a North American Union that allows them to make even more money and dissolve our borders, making a bigger disaster than we already have. Conservatives have a bad name because most think the only thing we want is more money and that soviernty is another thing in the way. We're much for American business and shipping off to other countries is a slap in the face to our sovereignty.

[lily]

Well.......you got one thing right Torrid..........Conservatives are no longer Republicans.

You're also putting all the blame on corporations outsourcing and totally forgetting that after 8 years, the Republicans.......not to be confused with Conservatives have spent us so far into debt, that we're not going to see the light of day for a long time. Maybe taxing isn't the answer..........but I know of no other way to pay this off.

[Torrid]

Well.......you got one thing right Torrid..........Conservatives are no longer Republicans.

You're also putting all the blame on corporations outsourcing and totally forgetting that after 8 years, the Republicans.......not to be confused with Conservatives have spent us so far into debt, that we're not going to see the light of day for a long time. Maybe taxing isn't the answer..........but I know of no other way to pay this off.


The first thing? Cut spending. I'm not saying don't tax, I mean change how we tax. It's already been proven that dropping income tax increases tax revenue. Kill the income tax, up our sales tax, keep property tax, and cut back to a minimalist government and we'll be taking in more than we spend. It takes money to pay this off, but raising income tax is just another blow to the economy. All we need to do is make sure we spend less than we take in. Played right we might even take in more tax money without income tax than we already do.

Bush has spent us into oblivion and has basically done a lot to set the Republican party back. His spending is definitely not conservative, I'm not sure if I want to call that one a pun or not. It's depressing.

[Elrathin]

I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying it's conservatives either, you put that label on it.


Actually you'll find many so called conservatives on this board quite supportive of that Torrid. I can label a few if you'd like. They think it's the right of businesses to do that and they agree with it.

[Torrid]

I'm not sure I would consider them true conservatives then, Republicans maybe. Running out on our country to make a few bucks isn't sovereign and any true conservative I've talked to has cared more about sovereignty than a few extra dollars(or thousands for that matter). It may be their right, but it's not honest. Those business owners are definitely not true conservatives either.

[Elrathin]

Well that is why I consider your ideal is fractured, because from some conservatives I talk to that is not the right thing to do and others think it is.

One thing I always used to think, that has since been refuted with conservatives is they were ALWAYS for America, but that is not the case. Some are just for profits.

[Torrid]

I'll give it to you, there are a lot of people who are crooked, but it's not just Republicans and conservatives, it is on both sides. It's just like when we choose our candidates, we look at what they stand for, what we agree with and if they feel real and honest. Unfortunately we've been fooled before.

Our government has been hijacked and the best way to fix it is to find an honest individual that isn't in some company's back pocket or talking out of both sides of their mouth.

I'm sure a lot of people around here do not like Glenn Beck, but I would say he's a good example of a true conservative. I don't agree with every stance he has, but how many of us will agree with every stance someone has in most cases, but he's honest, maybe a little outspoken and taken out of context I've seen him called offensive, but he's very much so sarcastic so taking a short snippet from him doesn't always sound the best. The main point I'm making is that he's for big business, but not corporate bail outs and his main concern is sovereignty and that is mine too.

[bishop]

heh, i didn't think anyone actually listened to glenn beck. my condolences. ;)

[potter]

I'll give it to you, there are a lot of people who are crooked, but it's not just Republicans and conservatives, it is on both sides.

Ermmmmm...what other side is there?

[Torrid]

I said it in that way because most will group Republican and conservative together. Idiots have slowly taken over the Republican party, but I just can't get on the Democrat wagon of tax everyone higher, develop another government program, and help those who won't help themselves. Republicans have now dragged the country to bigger government and Democrats are tugging in the direction of socialism, which I can't see as a good decision in our sad state of affairs. The only mainstream Republican candidate I can see as a hope for our society is Mit Romney and that is only because he'll have a handle on government spending and even listening to him, he sounds fake afraid he's going to offend someone. Everyone else other than Ron Paul seems crooked and Ron Paul unfortunately isn't going to have the steam required to beat out the hybrid Republicrat of McCain. Hillary's healthcare program is going to bankrupt us, Obama sounds great at the microphone, but all he does is talk and not so much about his stances, Edwards being a quieter hybrid version of those two. We're really up against a wall when it comes to great choices for a leader.

[brien]

And yet you are failing to notice that the whole reason the government now takes charge of caring for these people is because it was not happening before?

I find it incredible that people think the charities will a.) have the ability to care for all these people and 2.) be able to raise the money to care for all these people and 3.) that people would truly take the tax money that they are no longer paying and actually give that same money away.


Well, incredible or not, here is the reality some find "incredible". Private charities are already doing exactly what the poster above writes they aren't able to do in the US today. I find it incredible that people don't realize private charities not only administer government programs through taxpayer grants, but they are currently playing a more expanded role in this as well.

The second link below will support the truth and dispel the erroneous idea that private charities are not in a position to be effective in administering HHS through government grants that fund so many social programs here in the US. Those who believe the government acts in a vacuum to administer HHS simply ignore the reality of just how HHS work here in the US.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/cpr-18n6-1.html

Replacing Welfare with Private Charity

Private efforts have been much more successful than the federal government's failed attempt at charity. America is the most generous nation on earth. Americans already contribute more than $125 billion annually to charity. In fact, more than 85 percent of all adult Americans make some charitable contribution each year. In addition, about half of all American adults perform volunteer work; more than 20 billion hours were worked in 1991. The dollar value of that volunteer work was more than $176 billion. Volunteer work and cash donations combined bring American charitable contributions to more than $300 billion per year, not counting the countless dollars and time given informally to family members, neighbors, and others outside the formal charity system.

Private charities have been more successful than government welfare for several reasons. First, private charities are able to individualize their approach to the circumstances of poor people in ways that governments can never do. Government regulations must be designed to treat all similarly situated recipients alike. Glenn C. Loury of Boston University explains the difference between welfare and private charities on that point. "Because citizens have due process rights which cannot be fully abrogated . . . public judgments must be made in a manner that can be defended after the fact, sometimes even in court." The result is that most government programs rely on the simple provision of cash or other goods and services without any attempt to differentiate between the needs of recipients.

Take, for example, the case of a poor person who has a job offer. But she can't get to the job because her car battery is dead. A government welfare program can do nothing but tell her to wait two weeks until her welfare check arrives. Of course, by that time the job will be gone. A private charity can simply go out and buy a car battery (or even jump-start the dead battery).

The sheer size of government programs works against individualization. As one welfare case worker lamented, "With 125 cases it's hard to remember that they're all human beings. Sometimes they're just a number." Bureaucracy is a major factor in government welfare programs. For example, a report on welfare in Illinois found procedures requiring "nine forms to process an address change, at least six forms to add or delete a member of a household, and a minimum of six forms to report a change in earnings or employment." All that for just one program.

In her excellent book Tyranny of Kindness, Theresa Funiciello, a former welfare mother, describes the dehumanizing world of the government welfare system--a system in which regulations and bureaucracy rule all else. It is a system in which illiterate homeless people with mental illnesses are handed 17-page forms to fill out, women nine months pregnant are told to verify their pregnancies, a woman who was raped is told she is ineligible for benefits because she can't list the baby's father on the required form. It is a world totally unable to adjust to the slightest deviation from the bureaucratic norm.

In addition to being better able to target individual needs, private charities are much better able to target assistance to those who really need help. Because eligibility requirements for government welfare programs are arbitrary and cannot be changed to fit individual circumstances, many people in genuine need do not receive assistance, while benefits often go to people who do not really need them. More than 40 percent of all families living below the poverty level receive no government assistance. Yet more than half of the families receiving means-tested benefits are not poor. Thus, a student may receive food stamps, while a homeless man with no mailing address goes without. Private charities are not bound by such bureaucratic restrictions.

Private charity also has a better record of actually delivering aid to recipients. Surprisingly little of the money being spent on federal and state social welfare programs actually reaches recipients. In 1965, 70 cents of every dollar spent by the government to fight poverty went directly to poor people. Today, 70 cents of every dollar goes, not to poor people, but to government bureaucrats and others who serve the poor. Few private charities have the bureaucratic overhead and inefficiency of government programs.

Better yet, consider this simple thought experiment: If you had $10,000 available that you wanted to use to help the poor, would you give it to the government to help fund welfare or would you donate it to the private charity of your choice?

So, we see that in reality, private charities are the answer to fixing a broken welfare system run by an inefficient government.

Furthermore, the facts are that the government uses private charities to accomplish its social service and HHS goals. The government has increasingly awarded private charities money from the federal budget to take care of social services in the US today.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/03/20050301-1.html

The President's Faith-Based and Community Initiative levels the playing field for some of America's most effective social service providers to compete for Federal funding to serve those most in need while retaining their religious identity. These charities are making a real difference in the lives of our most vulnerable citizens.
The President's Initiative is Producing Real Results for Americans in Need. Recent data from a review of programs at the Departments of Heath and Human Services (HHS), Housing and Urban Development (HUD), Justice, Labor, Education, and Agriculture and the Agency for International Development showed:
To help Americans in need, in Fiscal Year (FY) 2004, $2 billion in competitive grants across seven Federal agencies were awarded to faith-based organizations - 10.3% of the total funding awarded through 151 programs and 17 program areas. This is up from last year when $1.17 billion was awarded in grants to faith-based groups across five agencies. In one year, HHS, HUD, Justice, Labor, and Education saw a 20% increase in the number of grants to faith-based organizations with 334 more grants awarded, and a 14% increase in the amount awarded to faith-based organizations - an increase of $164 million. When given a level playing field, faith-based groups can compete successfully with other social service organizations. The number of first-time faith-based grantees across the same five Federal agencies was 331 in FY 2004 - representing a 20% increase from FY 2003. Due to the President's leadership, more faith-based organizations are participating in the Federal grants process. HHS programs represented the majority of available funding included in the report. HHS saw an 88% increase in the number of awards to faith-based organizations since FY 2002 - from 483 to 908. Since FY 2002, first-time HHS grants to faith-based groups have more than doubled.

This idea that government agencies alone administer the entire amount of services related to health and human services in US society is one that merely ignores the reality and the major roles that private charities already play in the administration of HHS in the US today.

This link below will illustrate exactly how faith based organizations administer government programs.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1374/is_1_61/ai_69202834

As a humanist and a social worker in the state of Kentucky, I take issue with this. In Kentucky, most of the organizations that assist suffering children and families are faith-based. If their government funding were cut, these agencies would most likely cease to exist.

So, we see that the faith based organizations do the majority of assistance to suffereing children and families in KY Once again, it is private charities that are, in reality, participating in the majority of HHS in the US.

Therefore, when people try to write that private charities can't administer the social services here in the US, we now see it is rather the opposite and not only can they do it, they are already doing it. We also see from the evidence above that private charities are, in reality, a much better choice to administer HHS in the US than are government bureaucratic agencies. Government needs to get out of its own way and continue to expand the role of private charities in the administration of health and human services here in the US.

[Fishingriver]

The best way to tell if a person doesn't know shit about poverty is if they say the poor are lazy. No better way to dismiss your neighbor's plight than to dismiss all the complexities of the problem. To do so is in fact lazy. That is why we have so many festering problems in this country. Those we have elected to come up with solutions are themselves too lazy to examine the truth of the situation. They get away with this laziness because they are representing the lazy people who call the poor lazy.

[Shintao]

Personally people that don't have to drive to better their financial situation would probably in fact be lazy.

And people who steal from others are lazy as well. Like Corporate welfare. Like realestate. Like Banks.


I don't think he's far off the mark here. I'm sorry, I didn't know I was supposed to be taxed to oblivion to pay for some lazy shmuck that won't try to find a better job.

Hw is only two years old and has a bottle in his mouth.

[qoute] If you want something bad enough, work for it, that's very much what this country is supposed to be about.
[/quote]

Thats a great idea. Stop taking gov. handouts you didn't earn.

[Torrid]

All I was saying is I have a problem with the government taking our money for these systems. It should be kept private and and done by donations. Especially for kids that do not have a home and I won't have a way to give them a home, I would gladly put the money I was saving in taxes towards such a cause. I think it would be a much stronger system, considering it would be run by volunteers that put their time in and people are motivated when making a difference. We are a charitable nation. Now lets see us come together as a nation and do so, not have the government take the money from us and do it on our behalf.

It would be nice for people to not take handouts they didn't earn. I know there are some that need assistance, but I know a few of those here and there are taking advantage of the system. It's too big of a system for the government to run with any kind of efficiency. Some people just don't care and I feel the government isn't doing the best job at it.

[brien]

Some people just don't care and I feel the government isn't doing the best job at it.

This is obvious in the links I posted that actually show who is best at administering charity in the US. But emotion and rhetoric rule so many people when addressing this issue, and it is certainly highlighted here in this forum in so many posts I have read about poverty and charity. Never mind truth and logic, it is because some get emotional over the issue is what's important.:shame:

[Deadshot]

Beck's an ass...let's move on to a real topic now.