Chavez loses lead

[Trish]

Apparently many in Venezuela are losing their colored glasses where Chavez is concerned.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2333983120071124?feedType=
RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true

[ttriber]

Yup It sure seems Chavez is headed down the road of deep turmoil.

[preservanation]

His support has been dwindling and it was always overinflated to begin with, anyway.
What happens next?
VIOLENCE, to keep the Venezuelan people down and in line.
This is the natural progression of a fascist dictatorship.

The fact that there are so many here in America who support this thug is disgusting.

[Scorpion]

His support has been dwindling and it was always overinflated to begin with, anyway.
What happens next?
VIOLENCE, to keep the Venezuelan people down and in line.
This is the natural progression of a fascist dictatorship.

The fact that there are so many here in America who support this thug is disgusting.


I wish that you were wrong pres but I fear that Chavez will emulate his partner in despotism, Fidel, and viciously respond with troops and police. Pakistan might pale in comparison to what might well may happen in Venezuela.

As for those who support Chavez, I'll be interested on their take when Chavez rachets up the violence and flushes the Venezuelan constitution.

[preservanation]

His supporters will continue to do so for the simple reason that he hates Bush. Sad but true.
They will turn a blind eye to his violence and suppression of the citizens while falsely accusing Bush of doing what Chavez is actually doing.
It's a sickness.

[PatrickHenry]

Ahahaha!

Republicans for tyranny!

[goober]

His support has been dwindling and it was always overinflated to begin with, anyway.
What happens next?
VIOLENCE, to keep the Venezuelan people down and in line.
This is the natural progression of a fascist dictatorship.

The fact that there are so many here in America who support this thug is disgusting.


Chavez is what happens when a democracy becomes too stratified, too many poor, not enough middle class, it could happen here, all we need is more poor and less middle class, all the rest is in place. What do you do when the people elect a guy like this?

Venezuela is the oldest constitutional democracy in South America, Chavez is not a dictator, he may aspire to be a dictator, but he is currently an elected official to a constitutional office. He's trying to get the people to change the constitution to make him one step closer to a dictator, but he's doing it in a way that is democratic, he's putting it out to a vote in a free election.

Democracy is a process, not a result.

I hope he loses this vote, I'd like to see his popularity decline, I would hope that the constitutional foundations of the Venezuelan Republic would work in a way to eventually peaceably transfer power to his elected successors, ad that a more moderate government would be elected to replace his. It happened here in 2006, we voted the extremists out of power, and now the man who would subvert our constitution will be forced from office by term limits in 2009.
Let's hope it works the same way there.

[December]

Apparently many in Venezuela are losing their colored glasses where Chavez is concerned.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2333983120071124?feedType=
RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true


Is that what the US State Department thinks?
Why do you even care about some SMALL country in Latin America?
Well....Let me guess...

Oh Yes!

Venezuela has plenty of oil! :D
So it is OIL that US government concerns about and NOT the people of Venezuela.

So, enough already of that anti-Chavez Halliburton propaganda...

http://digitalseance.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/halliburton3.jpg

http://www.vvaw.org/gallery/images/fall03photos/cheney-halliburton.jpg

[Scorpion]

Apparently many in Venezuela are losing their colored glasses where Chavez is concerned.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN2333983120071124?feedType=
RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true


Is that what the US State Department thinks?
Why do you even care about some SMALL country in Latin America?
Well....Let me guess...

Oh Yes!

Venezuela has plenty of oil! :D
So it is OIL that US government concerns about and NOT the people of Venezuela.

So, enough already of that anti-Chavez Halliburton propaganda...

http://digitalseance.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/halliburton3.jpg

http://www.vvaw.org/gallery/images/fall03photos/cheney-halliburton.jpg


December:

Do you approve of Chavez's behavior? Amending the constitution, using force to suppress peaceful dissent, talking about attacking the UK in retaliation for the Falklands, siding with one of the last of the Soviet style communist dictators, Castro and all under the aegis of some demented political philosphy that he calls Bolivarian Socialism which is just another term for communism. Do you approve of all that?

Yes, Venezuela has oil reserves but ask yourself how Chavez has managed the sale of his oil.

The US has a vested interest in anything which might destabilize the Carribean Basin.

[preservanation]

His support has been dwindling and it was always overinflated to begin with, anyway.
What happens next?
VIOLENCE, to keep the Venezuelan people down and in line.
This is the natural progression of a fascist dictatorship.

The fact that there are so many here in America who support this thug is disgusting.


Chavez is what happens when a democracy becomes too stratified, too many poor, not enough middle class, it could happen here, all we need is more poor and less middle class, all the rest is in place. What do you do when the people elect a guy like this?the first election was considered legitiment by Latin American standards.
Venezuela is the oldest constitutional democracy in South America, Chavez is not a dictator, he may aspire to be a dictator, but he is currently an elected official to a constitutional office. However most everyone agrees that the last one was rigged. It is what Dictators do. To support a man elected through this sort of fraud and deceit does no one a favor especially the citizens of Venezuela or it's political process.He's trying to get the people to change the constitution to make him one step closer to a dictator, but he's doing it in a way that is democratic, he's putting it out to a vote in a free election.what makes you think the next election will be fair when the last one wasn't and he has proved to be an "aspiring dictator" as you describe him?

Democracy is a process, not a result.If the process is corrupt and heavily rigged, how can you trust the result?

I hope he loses this vote,hope has little success in toppling violent autocrats. I'd like to see his popularity decline,it is nonexistent in the middle and lower classes. The ones who support him are his cronies and the elite who could care less what happens to the rest of the proletariat. I would hope that the constitutional foundations of the Venezuelan Republic would work in a way to eventually peaceably transfer power to his elected successors, ad that a more moderate government would be elected to replace his.Oh, to dream... If you think Chavez is just going to relinquish power because of some inconsequential piece of paper, you understand nothing about Chavez.It happened here in 2006, we voted the extremists out of power, and now the man who would subvert our constitution will be forced from office by term limits in 2009.
Let's hope it works the same way there.
Gee, the man who would subvert the constitution is being forced to follow it? Why would "Bush The Evil Devil" ever succumb to such nonsense. I see him declaring martial law, shutting down the media, jailing all dissident journalists and citizens, and attacking all protesters with water cannons and machine guns.
Do you have any idea how foolish you sound when you suggest this?
Hint: Very.[hr]We have a poster here, Fushar...I would suggest you search his post and read them.
He lives in Venezuela and if he can't educate you on what life is like under the Chavez Dictatorship, I sure can't.
The worst I have to complain about are ridiculously high taxes and excessive regulations under a Dem Gov and Legislator.
Believe me that's nothing...
Read Fushar's posts.
Thank you.

[Trish]

Is that what the US State Department thinks?
Why do you even care about some SMALL country in Latin America?
Well....Let me guess...

Oh Yes!

Venezuela has plenty of oil! :D
So it is OIL that US government concerns about and NOT the people of Venezuela.

So, enough already of that anti-Chavez Halliburton propaganda...




You have absolutely no clue about what I care about or who I care about for that matter. I suspect it wouldn't matter a whit to you if you did know. For the record - I'm not the US government. I'm an individual and what I am concerned with, for, and about may, or may not, coincide with what the government is concerned with, for, and about. Instead of guessing what the State Department thinks about Venezuela (or what I think for that matter) you could save yourself the mental strain and just ask.

And to paraphrase you - so enough already of your ridiculous puling rants. They grow wearying. If you disagree with me, fine - disagree with me, many do, but please spare me from your off-base assumptions as to what or who I care about.

[preservanation]

(Hi, Trish)

[Labrocca]

So it is OIL that US government concerns about and NOT the people of Venezuela.

Why can't both be true? What's evil about being concerned about the energy of America? Man you are really anti-american.

[bobbylien]

Why can't both be true? What's evil about being concerned about the energy of America? Man you are really anti-american.

At what point does the plight of the Venezuelan people trump our desire for cheap gasoline?

[Scorpion]

His support has been dwindling and it was always overinflated to begin with, anyway.
What happens next?
VIOLENCE, to keep the Venezuelan people down and in line.
This is the natural progression of a fascist dictatorship.

The fact that there are so many here in America who support this thug is disgusting.


Chavez is what happens when a democracy becomes too stratified, too many poor, not enough middle class, it could happen here, all we need is more poor and less middle class, all the rest is in place. What do you do when the people elect a guy like this?the first election was considered legitiment by Latin American standards.
Venezuela is the oldest constitutional democracy in South America, Chavez is not a dictator, he may aspire to be a dictator, but he is currently an elected official to a constitutional office. However most everyone agrees that the last one was rigged. It is what Dictators do. To support a man elected through this sort of fraud and deceit does no one a favor especially the citizens of Venezuela or it's political process.He's trying to get the people to change the constitution to make him one step closer to a dictator, but he's doing it in a way that is democratic, he's putting it out to a vote in a free election.what makes you think the next election will be fair when the last one wasn't and he has proved to be an "aspiring dictator" as you describe him?

Democracy is a process, not a result.If the process is corrupt and heavily rigged, how can you trust the result?

I hope he loses this vote,hope has little success in toppling violent autocrats. I'd like to see his popularity decline,it is nonexistent in the middle and lower classes. The ones who support him are his cronies and the elite who could care less what happens to the rest of the proletariat. I would hope that the constitutional foundations of the Venezuelan Republic would work in a way to eventually peaceably transfer power to his elected successors, ad that a more moderate government would be elected to replace his.Oh, to dream... If you think Chavez is just going to relinquish power because of some inconsequential piece of paper, you understand nothing about Chavez.It happened here in 2006, we voted the extremists out of power, and now the man who would subvert our constitution will be forced from office by term limits in 2009.
Let's hope it works the same way there.
Gee, the man who would subvert the constitution is being forced to follow it? Why would "Bush The Evil Devil" ever succumb to such nonsense. I see him declaring martial law, shutting down the media, jailing all dissident journalists and citizens, and attacking all protesters with water cannons and machine guns.
Do you have any idea how foolish you sound when you suggest this?
Hint: Very.[hr]We have a poster here, Fushar...I would suggest you search his post and read them.
He lives in Venezuela and if he can't educate you on what life is like under the Chavez Dictatorship, I sure can't.
The worst I have to complain about are ridiculously high taxes and excessive regulations under a Dem Gov and Legislator.
Believe me that's nothing...
Read Fushar's posts.
Thank you.


Pres:

Regardless of your usual conservative and intelligent take on a subject, you're preaching to the choir about the liberal take on Venezuela. Chavez must be deposed. My hope is that he becomes a snipers target. He is certainly deserving of that fate, as is Castro.

[PatrickHenry]

Chavez must be deposed. My hope is that he becomes a snipers target. He is certainly deserving of that fate, as is Castro.
Mmm.. again the thirst for blood.

You are a supporter of tyranny/assassination.

I don't believe you work in the medical field...

[preservanation]

Chavez: Only a 'Traitor' Will Vote No

Nov 23 07:21 PM US/Eastern
By DAN KEANE

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - President Hugo Chavez warned his supporters on Friday that anyone voting against his proposed constitutional changes would be a "traitor," rallying his political base before a referendum that would let him seek unlimited re-election in 2012 and beyond.
Brandishing a little red book listing his desired 69 revisions to Venezuela's charter, Chavez exhorted his backers to redouble their efforts toward a victorious "yes" vote in the Dec. 2 ballot.

"He who says he supports Chavez but votes 'no' is a traitor, a true traitor," the president told an arena packed with red-clad supporters. "He's against me, against the revolution and against the people."

His speech followed the recent high-profile defection of his former Defense Minister Gen. Raul Baduel, a longtime ally who called the president's proposed reforms a "coup." Others have also broken with the Chavista movement in recent months, including politicians of the small left-leaning party Podemos.

Chavez's opponents accuse him of concentrating power and seeking to be president-for-life like his close friend Fidel Castro of Cuba. Chavez insists he will only stay on as long as Venezuelans continue to vote for him.

"If you don't approve (the referendum), maybe we'll have time for a parachute jump in five years," Chavez, a former paratrooper, told the crowd. "But if you wish—if you approve the referendum—I will stay as long as God wills! Until the last bone of my skeleton dries out!"

The proposed revisions would do away with presidential term limits, extend terms from six to seven years, let Chavez appoint regional vice presidents and eliminate Central Bank authority, among other changes.

Critics warn he would also have the power to shut down Venezuelan newspapers, television and radio stations by declaring a state of emergency, and the government could detain citizens without charges during such a period. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8T3M1P00&show_article=1

[Truth_and_Power]

December:

Don't you think it's the jews that are the problem with venezuela?

[lawless168]

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/6916.html

[Scorpion]

Chavez must be deposed. My hope is that he becomes a snipers target. He is certainly deserving of that fate, as is Castro.
Mmm.. again the thirst for blood.

You are a supporter of tyranny/assassination.

I don't believe you work in the medical field...


Apparently it's fine with you that a communist dictator is preparing to throw his citizens rights, such as they are, to the wind and begin armed repression of civil dissent and a suspension of constitutional protections.

As for me, the guy deserves a bullet. Who delivers that bullet is anyones guess, especially in light of Chavez's treatment of his citizens. What would you do, give him a thumbs up?

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/sheehan_chavez_1.jpg

What you think of my profession is of no concern to me. Just another veiled insult.

[PatrickHenry]

I think anyone who calls for assassinations of political leaders has no general claim to their own life.

Perhaps the fans of assassination are the ones deserving bullets, since they lack a conscience.

[Scorpion]

I think anyone who calls for assassinations of political leaders has no general claim to their own life.

Perhaps the fans of assassination are the ones deserving bullets, since they lack a conscience.


Though I don't agree with you I respect your point. You favor a tyrannical dictator's safety and I favor Venezuela's best interest. My conscience is certainly clear. It's unusual that you favor anyone who advocates assasinating Chavez should loose their life. You seem to place Chavez's life above those who oppose him. Quite an unusual double standard on your part but not unexpected.

Your way may result in untold hardship for Venezuela's citizens. My way results in an end to Chavez's socialist regime. What do you think that Venezuela's citizens would prefer?

Political assasination may not be right thing to do but sometimes the right thing isn't the best thing.

[PatrickHenry]

What do you think that Venezuela's citizens would prefer?...
Likely they would prefer what any group of citizens would prefer. Peaceful political transitions.

I think Bush likely has earned a violent end for his bloodthirsty warmongering. Yet I don't advocate an assassination. Reason? I favor peaceful political transitions, but you don't?

How would you view an assassination of a US President you did not favor?

[Scorpion]

What do you think that Venezuela's citizens would prefer?...
Likely they would prefer what any group of citizens would prefer. Peaceful political transitions.

I think Bush likely has earned a violent end for his bloodthirsty warmongering. Yet I don't advocate an assassination. Reason? I favor peaceful political transitions, but you don't?

How would you view an assassination of a US President you did not favor?


Peaceful political transition? Is that what I was seeing when Chavez's troops were beating students who were peacefully protesting? Is calling anyone who disagrees with his socialist regime a traitor and jailing them peaceful? Is suspending the rule of law to favor your political agenda through violence a peaceful transition?

In a word, no. Do you actually believe that Venezuelans will sit idly, take this rape of their country and do nothing? Perhaps you do but I certainly don't.

I was wondering when you'd drag Bush into this thread and try to portray him as Chavez. The only thing Bush has in common with Chavez is that both are political screw ups.

[PatrickHenry]

I estimate that Chavez is probably three times as popular with his people than Bush is with his.

Thanks for openly admitting you admire fascist tyranny and assassination over socialist democracy.

Have you ever seen protestors beaten in the US? I have...

[Scorpion]

I estimate that Chavez is probably three times as popular with his people than Bush is with his.

Thanks for openly admitting you admire fascist tyranny and assassination over socialist democracy.

Have you ever seen protestors beaten in the US? I have...


I'm not certain of your source comparing Bush's popularity to Chavez therefore your estimate is little more than an interesting bit of pro-Chavez conjecture.

I admire a democratic government. Chavez has installed a dictatorship, suspended the constitution and labeled anyone in opposition to his thuggery a traitor and subject to punishment. In doing so he has taken on the risk of assasination. If he was assainated I wouldn't shed a tear, would you?

I don't understand the relevance of your experiences regarding the beating of protestors in the US.[hr]
I think anyone who calls for assassinations of political leaders has no general claim to their own life.



Again I'd like to draw your attention to your quote. You never addressed my earlier observation. It's unusual that you favor that anyone who advocates assasinating Chavez should loose their life. You seem to place Chavez's life above those who oppose him. Why is that?

[PatrickHenry]

Ahhh...Scorpion, you don't just oppose Chavez.

You want him DEAD.

If the life of an elected political leader is so distasteful, perhaps your own life isn't so important either.

And I DO like Chavez. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. My enemies reside in Washington. They have robbed me all my life, while Chavez has never harmed me...

[Scorpion]

Ahhh...Scorpion, you don't just oppose Chavez.

You want him DEAD.

If the life of an elected political leader is so distasteful, perhaps your own life isn't so important either.

And I DO like Chavez. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. My enemies reside in Washington. They have robbed me all my life, while Chavez has never harmed me...


While it's true that I oppose Chavez I prefer that he'd step aside for a democratic leader respectful of the people of Venezuela and its constitution. But that's quite unlikely given the arrogance demonstrated by the Chavez regime. That being the case, as I've said before, I wouldn't shed a tear if someone assasinated him.

It's also true that I would characterize the life of a tyrannical despot like Chavez as being of less value then those whose freedoms he has repressed.

Finally, your vile and pitiful hatred for the US government and its military are well known here. Chavez opposes the US and that would explain why your admiration gravitates in favor of Chavez's regime instead of those who would oppose his tyranny.

Chavez's days are numbered.

[PatrickHenry]

Hatred of the government isn't vile...It's the right thing to do.

Oh, sorry. I'm speaking to a man who likes being robbed by the mob that then goes and breaks other people's legs. Heh.

When the power of love overcomes to love of power, the world will know peace...

[preservanation]

To compare Bush to Chavez is despicable and an attempt to sway the soft minded in America through false propaganda and lies that we some how live in a dictator ship. It's all political. These are the same people who bemoan our world image, while doing everything in their power to tear it down.

Chavez can only hang onto any sort of popular power just as long as his oil doesn't run out or the bottom of the oil market doesn't fall out. He can provide just enough gov entitlements to keep the citizens in check. When that runs out, look for massive violence and blood running in the streets on a national level.
When that happens, look for the same people supporting him here to call for our tax money to be sent over there to "help the people" while it will be stolen by Chavez and used to further prop up his violent regime, the whole time blaming it on the long gone Bush administration...So, the beat goes on.
Within that time the Chavez apologists will continue on their wrongheaded path, then deny every thing they are saying now.
I give it all about three years until this comes to fruition.

[I Like Beer]

I wish that you were wrong pres but I fear that Chavez will emulate his partner in despotism, Fidel, and viciously respond with troops and police. Pakistan might pale in comparison to what might well may happen in Venezuela.

As for those who support Chavez, I'll be interested on their take when Chavez rachets up the violence and flushes the Venezuelan constitution.

My take on Chavez is this... he has stood in elections (that's hardly the modus operandi of a tyrannical dictator) and won. These elections have been monitored by outside parties, like the EU, and found to be fair.

In fact, the only whiff that the last election wasn't fair was based on exit polls conducted by a US firm who used local volunteers that were (as the article I read stated) likely anti-Chavez.

He has not declared martial law, he allows his opponents to organize and march, the private media (perhaps with one exception) has not been shut down or censored.

None of this is really typical of despots, is it?

Now, if he loses this election on Sunday and he suspends civil rights OR begins arresting those who oppose him OR begins a campaign of violence or oppression - then yes, I hope he gets removed.

In the meantime however, he enjoys popular support of his people (I know, I know you'll claim it's coerced), he's not murdering them or locking them up, and he's winning elections. For those reasons I support the decision of the Venezuelan people to decide matters for themselves, and if they vote him in, he's their leader.

Case closed.

[Scorpion]

I wish that you were wrong pres but I fear that Chavez will emulate his partner in despotism, Fidel, and viciously respond with troops and police. Pakistan might pale in comparison to what might well may happen in Venezuela.

As for those who support Chavez, I'll be interested on their take when Chavez rachets up the violence and flushes the Venezuelan constitution.

My take on Chavez is this... he has stood in elections (that's hardly the modus operandi of a tyrannical dictator) and won. These elections have been monitored by outside parties, like the EU, and found to be fair.

In fact, the only whiff that the last election wasn't fair was based on exit polls conducted by a US firm who used local volunteers that were (as the article I read stated) likely anti-Chavez.

He has not declared martial law, he allows his opponents to organize and march, the private media (perhaps with one exception) has not been shut down or censored.

None of this is really typical of despots, is it?

Now, if he loses this election on Sunday and he suspends civil rights OR begins arresting those who oppose him OR begins a campaign of violence or oppression - then yes, I hope he gets removed.

In the meantime however, he enjoys popular support of his people (I know, I know you'll claim it's coerced), he's not murdering them or locking them up, and he's winning elections. For those reasons I support the decision of the Venezuelan people to decide matters for themselves, and if they vote him in, he's their leader.

Case closed.


I'm afraid that you've closed this case a bit prematurely. The world press seem to disagree with your views of Chavez's behavior.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1850844.ece

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0843138720071109?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/06/world/americas/06venezuela.html?ref=americas

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_6_55/ai_98954243

http://rafaelmartel.com/2007/11/07/chaos-in-venezuela-is-chavez-capable-of-governing-the-country/

http://rafaelmartel.com/2007/11/07/chaos-in-venezuela-is-chavez-capable-of-governing-the-country/

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040820.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/31740.htm

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

...and there's plenty more where that came from.

It's simply inaccurate to describe Chavez as anything other then a despotic tyrant who subscribes to the Castro school of dictatorial socialism.[hr]
Hatred of the government isn't vile...It's the right thing to do.

Oh, sorry. I'm speaking to a man who likes being robbed by the mob that then goes and breaks other people's legs. Heh.

When the power of love overcomes to love of power, the world will know peace...


I won't waste words addressing your statement that, "hating the government is the right thing to do." It's just a deluded rant by someone with an ax to grind.

"Oh, sorry. I'm speaking to a man who likes being robbed by the mob that then goes and breaks other people's legs. Heh." I have no idea what your talling about. Does it offer anything remotely relevant to the topic of this thread? I thought not.

"When the power of love overcomes to love of power, the world will know peace..." Welcome to the PH double standard cliche festival. In one sentence he esposes hatred for the governemnt and in a following paragraph he's throwing daisies around and advocating love.