that for which we stand

[Athena]

"That for which we stand" was explained by the Athenian statesman Pericle before the time of Christ.Â*Â*Lincoln, quoted him when he said we have "government of the people, by the people, for the people".Â*Â*

This is the html version of the file http://www.sammustafa.com/Resources/Thucydides.pdf.


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Thucydides, "Pericles's Funeral Oration"------------------------------------------------------------------------Thucydides wrote the definitive account of the Pelopennesian War. He survived the conflict and went on towrite other works, which taken together are some of the most important sources we have for this period. Here we have his account of the Athenian leader Pericles giving a speech after the first year of war, in which he explains his policies and gives a eulogy for the casualties that Athens has suffered fighting Sparta(known also as “Lacedaemon.�)In the same winter the Athenians gave a funeral at the public cost to those who had first fallen in this war. It was a custom of their ancestors, and the manner of it is as follows. Three days before the ceremony, the bones of the dead are laid out in a tent which has been erected; and their friends bring to their relatives such offerings as they please. In the funeral procession cypress coffins are borne in cars, one for each tribe; the bones of the deceased being placed in the coffin of their tribe. Among these is carried one empty coffin decked for the missing, that is, for those whose bodies could not be recovered. Any citizen or stranger who pleases, joins in the procession: and the female relatives are there to wail at the burial. The dead are laid in the public sepulchre in the Beautiful suburb of the city, in which those who fall in war are always buried;with the exception of those slain at Marathon, who for their singular and extraordinary valour were interredon the spot where they fell. After the bodies have been laid in the earth, a man chosen by the state, of approved wisdom and eminent reputation, pronounces over them an appropriate prayer; after which all retire. Such is the manner of the burying; and throughout the whole of the war, whenever the occasion arose, the established custom was observed. Meanwhile these were the first that had fallen, and Pericles, son of Xanthippus, was chosen to pronounce their eulogy. When the proper time arrived, he advanced from the sepulchre to an elevated platform in order to be heard by as many of the crowd as possible, and spoke as follows: "Most of my predecessors in this place have commended him who made this speech part of the law, telling us that it is well that it should be delivered at the burial of those who fall in battle. For myself, I should have thought that the worth which had displayed itself in deeds would be sufficiently rewarded by honours also shown by deeds; such as you now see in this funeral prepared at the people's cost. And I could have wished that the reputations of many brave men were not to be imperilled in the mouth of a single individual, to stand or fall according as he spoke well or ill. For it is hard to speak properly upon a subject where it is even difficult to convince your hearers that you are speaking the truth. On the one hand, the friend who is familiar with every fact of the story may think that some point has not been set forth with that fullness which he wishes and knows it to deserve; on the other, he who is a stranger to the matter may be led by envy to suspect exaggeration if he hears anything above his own nature. For men can endure to hear others praised only so long as they can severally persuade themselves of their own ability to equal the actions recounted: when this point is passed, envy comes in and with it incredulity. However, since our ancestors have stamped this custom with their approval, it becomes my duty to obey the law and to try to satisfy your several wishes and opinions as best I may. I shall begin with our ancestors: it is both just and proper that they should have the honour of the first mention on an occasion like the present. They dwelt in the country without break in the succession from generation to generation, and handed it down free to the present time by their valour. And if our more remote ancestors deserve praise, much more do our own fathers, who added to their inheritance the empire which we now possess, and spared no pains to be able to leave their acquisitions to us of the present generation. Lastly, there are few parts of our dominions that have not been augmented by those of us here,who are still more or less in the vigour of life; while the mother country has been furnished by us with everything that can enable her to depend on her own resources whether for war or for peace. That part of our history which tells of the military achievements which gave us our several possessions, or of the ready valour with which either we or our fathers stemmed the tide of Hellenic or foreign aggression, is a theme
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Pericles’ Funeral Oration2too familiar to my hearers for me to dilate on, and I shall therefore pass it by. But what was the road by which we reached our position, what the form of government under which our greatness grew, what the national habits out of which it sprang; these are questions which I may try to solve before I proceed to my panegyric upon these men; since I think this to be a subject upon which on the present occasion a speaker may properly dwell, and to which the whole assemblage, whether citizens or foreigners, may listen withadvantage.

Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighbouring states; we are an inspiration to others, rather than imitators ourselves. Its administration favours the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy. If we look to the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences; if no social standing, advancement in public life falls to reputation for capacity, class considerations not being allowed to interfere with merit; nor again does poverty bar the way, if a man is able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition. The freedom which we enjoy in our government extends also to our ordinary life. There, far from exercising a jealous surveillance over each other, we do not feel called upon to be angry with our neighbour for doing what he likes, or even to indulge in those injurious looks which cannot fail to be offensive, although they inflict no positive penalty. But all this ease in our private relations does not make us lawless as citizens. Against this fear is our chief safeguard, teaching us to obey the magistrates and the laws, particularly such as regard the protection of the injured, whether they are actually on the statute book, or belong to that code which, although unwritten, yet cannot be broken without acknowledged disgrace.

Further, we provide plenty of means for the mind to refresh itself from business. We celebrate games and sacrifices all the year round, and the elegance of our private establishments forms a daily source of pleasure and helps to banish ill-health; while the magnitude of our city draws the produce of the world into our harbour, so that to the Athenian the fruits of other countries are as familiar a luxury as those of his own.

If we turn to our military policy, there also we differ from our antagonists. We throw open our city to the world, and never by alien acts exclude foreigners from any opportunity of learning or observing, although the eyes of an enemy may occasionally profit by our liberal style; trusting less in system and policy than to the native spirit of our citizens; while in education, where our rivals from their very cradles by a painful discipline seek after manliness, at Athens we live exactly as we please, and yet are just as ready to encounter every legitimate danger. In proof of this it may be noticed that the Lacedaemonians do not invade our country alone, but bring with them all their confederates; while we Athenians advance unsupported into the territory of a neighbour, and fighting upon a foreign soil usually vanquish with ease men who are defending their homes. Our united force was never yet encountered by any enemy, because we have at once to attend to our navy and to dispatch our citizens by land upon a hundred different services; so that, wherever they engage with some such fraction of our strength, a success against a detachment is magnified into a victory over the nation, and a defeat into a reverse suffered at the hands ofour entire people. And yet if with habits not of labour but of ease, and courage not of art but of nature, we are still willing to encounter danger, we have the double advantage of escaping the experience of hardships in anticipation and of facing them in the hour of need as fearlessly as those who are never free from them.

Nor are these the only points in which our city is worthy of admiration. We cultivate refinement without extravagance and knowledge without effeminacy; wealth we employ more for use than for show, and regard the real disgrace of poverty not in admitting to the fact but in declining to struggle against it. Our public men have, besides politics, their private affairs to attend to, and our ordinary citizens, though occupied with the pursuits of industry, are still fair judges of public matters; for, unlike any other nation,regarding him who takes no part in these duties not as unambitious but as useless, we Athenians are able to judge at all events if we cannot originate, and, instead of looking on discussion as a stumbling-block in the way of action, we think it an indispensable preliminary to any wise action at all. Again, in our enterprises we present the singular spectacle of daring and deliberation, each carried to its highest point, and bothunited in the same persons; although usually decision is the fruit of ignorance, hesitation of reflection. But the palm of courage will surely be adjudged most justly to those, who best know the difference betweenhardship and pleasure and yet are never tempted to shrink from danger. In generosity we are equally
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Pericles’ Funeral Oration3singular, acquiring our friends by conferring, not by receiving, favours. Yet, of course, the doer of thefavour is the firmer friend of the two, in order by continued kindness to keep the recipient in his debt; whilethe debtor feels less keenly from the very consciousness that the return he makes will be a payment, not afree gift. And it is only the Athenians, who, fearless of consequences, confer their benefits not fromcalculations of expediency, but in the confidence of liberality.

In short, I say that as a city we are the school of all Greece, while I doubt if the world can produce a manwho, where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happya versatility, as the Athenian. And that this is no mere boast thrown out for the occasion, but plain matter offact, the power of the state acquired by these habits proves. For Athens alone of her contemporaries is found when tested to be greater than her reputation, and alone gives no occasion to her assailants to blush at the antagonist by whom they have been beaten, or to her subjects to question her title by merit to rule. Rather, the admiration of the present and succeeding ages will be ours, since we have not left our power without witness, but have shown it by mighty proofs; and far from needing a Homer to write down ourstory, or other of his craft whose verses might charm for the moment only for the impression which they gave to melt at the touch of fact, we have forced every sea and land to be the highway of our daring, and everywhere, whether for evil or for good, have left imperishable monuments behind us. Such is the Athens for which these men, in the assertion of their resolve not to lose her, nobly fought and died; and well may every one of their survivors be ready to suffer in her cause.

Indeed if I have dwelt at some length upon the character of our country, it has been to show that our stakein the struggle is not the same as theirs who have no such blessings to lose, and also that the glory of themen over whom I am now speaking might be by definite proofs established. This eulogy is now in a great measure complete; for the Athens that I have celebrated is only what the heroism of these and their likehave made her, men whose fame, unlike that of most Greeks, will be found to be only what they deserve.And if a test of worth be needed, it is to be found in their closing scene, and this not only in cases in whichit set the final seal upon their merit, but also in those in which it gave the first intimation of their having any. For there is justice in the claim that courage in his country's battles should be like a cloak that coversup a man's other imperfections; since the good action has blotted out the bad, and his merit as a citizenmore than outweighed his demerits as an individual. But none of these allowed either wealth with itsprospect of future enjoyment to unnerve his spirit, or poverty with its hope of a day of freedom and richesto tempt him to shrink from danger. No, holding that vengeance upon their enemies was more to be desiredthan any personal blessings, and reckoning this to be the most glorious of hazards, they joyfully determined to accept the risk, to make sure of their vengeance, and to let their wishes wait; and while committing to hope the uncertainty of final success, in the business before them they thought fit to act boldly and trust inthemselves. Thus choosing to die resisting, rather than to live submitting, they fled only from dishonour,but met danger face to face, and after one brief moment, while at the summit of their fortune, escaped, not from their fear, but from their glory."So these men died like Athenians. You, their survivors, must determine to have as unfaltering a resolution on the battlefield, though you may pray that you meet a happier end. And not contented with ideas derived only from words of the advantages which are bound up with the defence of your country, though thesewould furnish a valuable text to a speaker even before an audience so alive to them as the present, you mustyourselves realize the power of Athens, and feed your eyes upon her from day to day, till love of her fills your hearts; and then, when all her greatness shall break upon you, you must reflect that it was by courage, sense of duty, and a keen feeling of honour in action that men were enabled to win all this, and that nopersonal failure in an enterprise could make them consent to deprive their country of their valour, but they laid it at her feet as the most glorious contribution that they could offer. For this offering of their lives madein common by them all they each of them individually received that renown which never grows old, and fora sepulchre, not so much that in which their bones have been deposited, but that noblest of shrines whereintheir glory is laid up to be eternally remembered upon every occasion on which deed or story shall call for its commemoration. For heroes have the whole earth for their tomb; and in lands far from their own, where the column with its epitaph declares it, there is enshrined in every breast a record unwritten with no tabletto preserve it, except that of the heart. These take as your model and, judging happiness to be the fruit of
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Pericles’ Funeral Oration4freedom and freedom of valour, never decline the dangers of war. For it is not the miserable that wouldmost justly be unsparing of their lives; these have nothing to hope for: it is rather they to whom continuedlife may bring reverses as yet unknown, and to whom a fall, if it came, would be most tremendous in itsconsequences. And surely, to a man of spirit, the degradation of cowardice must be immeasurably moregrievous than the unfelt death which strikes him in the midst of his strength and patriotism!

Comfort, therefore, not condolence, is what I have to offer to the parents of the dead who may be here. Numberless are the chances to which, as they know, the life of man is subject; but fortunate indeed are theywho draw for their lot a death so glorious as that which has caused your mourning, and to whom life has been so exactly measured as to terminate in the happiness in which it has been passed. Still I know that thisis a hard saying, especially when those are in question of whom you will constantly be reminded by seeing in the homes of others blessings of which once you also boasted: for grief is felt not so much for the wantof what we have never known, as for the loss of that to which we have been long accustomed. Yet you whoare still of an age to beget children must bear up in the hope of having others in their stead; not only willthey help you to forget those whom you have lost, but will be to the state at once a reinforcement and a security; for never can a fair or just policy be expected of the citizen who does not, like his fellows, bring tothe decision the interests and apprehensions of a father. While those of you who have passed your prime must congratulate yourselves with the thought that the best part of your life was fortunate, and that the brief span that remains will be cheered by the fame of the departed. For it is only the love of honour that nevergrows old; and honour it is, not gain, as some would have it, that rejoices the heart of age and helplessness.

Turning to the sons or brothers of the dead, I see an arduous struggle before you. When a man is gone,everyone praises him, and even if your merits shall be excellent, you will still find it difficult not merely toovertake, but even to approach their renown. The living have envy to contend with, while those who are no longer in our path are honoured with a goodwill into which rivalry does not enter. On the other hand, if Imust say anything on the subject of female excellence to those of you who will now be in widowhood, it will be all comprised in this brief exhortation. Great will be your glory in not falling short of your naturalcharacter; and greatest will be hers who is least talked of among the men, whether for good or for bad.

My task is now finished. I have performed it to the best of my ability, and in word, at least, there quirements of the law are now satisfied. If deeds be in question, those who are here interred havereceived part of their honours already, and for the rest, their children will be brought up till manhood at thepublic expense: the state thus offers a valuable prize, as the garland of victory in this race of valour, for thereward both of those who have fallen and their survivors. And where the rewards for merit are greatest, there are found the best citizens.

And now that you have brought to a close your lamentations for your relatives, you may depart."

[kanyon40]

This isn't to be mean or sarcastic, but is actually a real question so I know where to go with this thread... what is your point? I am a pastor of a Christian Church and also have a double minor in college in both greek history and classical studies (greek civilization and mythology), but I am not sure what the connection between Pericles' funeral oration and Christ is.

It is of note that while democracy did exist before Christ, it is the Judeo-Christian worldview that places the highest value on human life and that is the foundation of the most powerful, successful democracy in history. (Though I post that while being truly uncertain of the purpose of the thread so if you are looking to go somewhere else with this, then ignore this last paragraph.) =-)

[Athena]

I am so glad somone who is literate is posting.Â* some Christian demoninations played an important role in establishing democracy, but you statement of literacy and question worries me. I don't think modern churches would bring us to democracy, and would love it if you started a thread to talk about Christianity's contribution to democracy. Maybe you ease my concern that Christianity has become the enemy of democracy again.

Did you read Pericle's Funeral Oration?Â*Â*It is a long read, but I think most important to understanding the principles of democracy.Â*Â*For example, Athens valued generalizing, while Sparta valued specializing.Â*Â*Athens valued privacy, while Sparta did not.Â*Â*As I have witnessed the cultural change of the US, we have gone from the values of Athens towards the values of Sparta, the enemy of Athens.Â* That is like going from the values of peace to the values of war. This concerns me.Â*Â*Perhaps you might say something about the importance of generalization or privacy to democracy?Â*Â*

If it was Christianity that we should thank for our blessings, then how do you explain the inequality of royalty and the peasants in Christian Europe before the democracy of the US?Â*Â*The US presented to the world a New Social Order of liberty and justice for all, opposed to the old social order of classes and privileged royalty.Â*Â*What of the transition from witch hunts and superstition to science?Â*Â*The transition from the church persecuting people, to tolerance of ideas?Â*Â*How do you think this came about?Â*Â*What of the wars between catholics and protestants, and how under the US democracy these people learned to learn together in peace?Â*Â* How do you think Christians came to an understanding of democracy?Â*Â*

[kanyon40]

You sure asked a lot of questions. Simply put, the failings of Christian rulers in the middle ages don't change the reality that Christianity was the basis of the democracy of this nation. I won't and don't defend the wars of religion in Europe. But it is worth noting that protestants vs catholics would have been more akin to democrats vs republicans in the middle centuries in Europe.

While religion was the stated cause fo war, the real battle was over power. And we know that when people have power, no matter what their religious views are, they begin to act to consolidate their power. This is more in line with what was going on in Europe. It is also important to understand that the kings and queens in Europe were not the leaders of the Church (not until the Anglican Church came about, which worked towards ending the wars of religion through divising a church that was a crossroads between catholic and protestant). At the same time that rulers were claiming Christ's blessings as they went headlong into war to consolidate their own power, the theologians and reformers continued actually working on the true faith through expounding on scripture, spirituality, and theology. At the same time, the average person in the average church in Europe wasn't involved in such violence. They were simply worshipping in peace until power hungry leaders brought war upon them. If it wasn't in the name of religion, it would have been in the name of something else because it was truly about power.

It is true that the royalty also used the Christian faith as a way to oppress their people. But the reasoning for it wasn't found in scripture. It was found in the fact that the royalty had the army, so if they said it, then it was true. This is why reformers continually worked against such oppression in the name of Christ. It is also way some of the greatest Christian reformers of history are known as martyrs. Guys like Lattimore, Cranmer, and Ridley dared speak against the crown in telling them that they were misusing religion. It cost them there necks, literally. So again, the issue was power, not faith.

While Christianity has been misused, it has also been the basis for many great political movements. For example, it was the evangelical movement in England headed by Wilberforce that led to the abolition of the slave trade, and that same movement that ultimately led to the same thing in America much later.

In regards to how democracy came about as a result of the Christian worldview, I will explain. First of all, the bible affirms the value of human life, regardless of whether power hungry kings and queens affirmed it. Ultimately there were two possible responses, both of which played out. The first was for those who were tired of the religious persecution because they were the little guy who recognized that all this war over religion was craziness, to come to the new world and set up a land of religious freedom. The founding of this country incorporated that value into its very fabric, thus why we are told to have inalienable rights endowed by our creator. The founders of this country realized that what was happening in Europe was madness. They recognized that this was a religion that respected life; not one that sought to destroy all those who are different.

The second alternative was to rebel against religion in general, which happened in the French Revolution. The result of that was the bloodiest of all the European wars of the age. It was so bad that people were being beheaded and no one even knew why. When France rejected the Christian worldview, they in turn rejected the value for life and became far worse than any of the royalty who had brought war in the name of faith in the previous centuries.

So with the two alternatives, one fell into complete moral chaos upon rejecting the Christian value on life, while the other founded a great nation that claimed to respect the rights and dignity of all humans. Sure it took a while for us to make sure that all humans in this coutry were receiving those rights. But if it wasn't for that worldview, there would have been no reason to give blacks and/or women rights. They could have remained valueless without a worldview that gave them worth. And, again, it was the Christians in America most responsible for opposing slavery in the North, ultimately keeping the country from turning a blind eye to the issue.

I know this has been long, and I don't know if it answers all your questions, but I may as well end here for now.

[kanyon40]

By the way, on the issue of Christianity vs science: that is a false dichotomy. It is again from the Christian worldview that scientic study ultimately springs. As you know as a Greek scholar, the Greeks (as the Romans, Mesopotamians, and most other religions) believed in a random world that was at the whim of the gods. Since life could be altered at any time based on whether Zeus or Tiamat or whomever was having a bad hair day, there was no true belief in an ordered universe. The world was truly random. Contrast that with the Judeo-Christian worldview that says that God created the universe, that he ordered in in a certain way (as described in Genesis), and that we have dominion over it (which, since we have dominion, which is a responsibility to protect, it assumes that we can udnerstand it). Since, in this worldview, the universe has order and reason, and stands that it can also be studied and understood. This isn't to say that other cultures didn't make advancements, because we know they surely did. But it was the Christian who first sought science as an art. If you study science from its inception as an art (or field of study), the bulk of all true scientific study and philosophy leading all the way to the so-called Enlightenment was done by Christians. This naturally makes sense, because Christians have the worldview that says we can do this. Galileo, Copernicus, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton; they all willfully spoke from a Christian worldview (which shouldn't be confused with catholic dogma that sought to oppress knowledge that they felt challenged faith, when those they were oppressing were speaking from a point of faith).

The true faith vs science battle began with the Enlightenment when the hubris and arrogance of what man thought man had accomplished (not wanting to give the credit back to the worldview that made it all possible) began to compete with claims that our knowledge was a gift from God. That debate has continued and intensified ever since, until it is at the point now where people don't realize that Christians aren't in any way against science. We see it as a gift from God, but one to be used wisely and with restraint (speaking for example of cloning).

[Athena]

Please support this statement with quotes from the period. I think you are rationalizing your thoughts, not basing them on historical evidence. "This is why reformers continually worked against such oppression in the name of Christ". Martin Luther believed as much in a class society as the Hindus have believed in a class system ordained by a Godly power that determines our distainy. It was believed God chose those who were to rule and those who were to serve, and this belief maintained order in Christian Europe. If you want to argue Christianity brought about democracy, you need some evidence of this.

I will help you. When the crusaders returned with Greek and Roman classics, the church copied them and began using them to educate the people. Plato, Aristotle and Cicero were very important to the evolving Christianity.

[Athena]

No one saw democracy in the bible until there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics.Â*Â*

The founding of this country incorporated that value into its very fabric, thus why we are told to have inalienable rights endowed by our creator. The founders of this country realized that what was happening in Europe was madness. They recognized that this was a religion that respected life; not one that sought to destroy all those who are different.

especially Cicero was responsible of this understanding of human rights.Â*Â*I have already posted quotes from him.Â*Â*He comes before Christianity and learned in Athens.Â*Â*His understanding of God comes from Athens, and this is the understanding of God accepted by the founding fathers who were deist.Â*Â*Thomas Jefferson edited the bible, eliminating the superstition in it.Â*Â*His edition of the bible is available today.Â*Â*He is the man who man wrote of our unalienable rigths in the Declaration of Independence and he is paraphrasing Cicero.Â*Â*Cicero strongly influenced the church in the mid ages, and wouldn't have democracy today if there had not been literacay in Greek and Roman classics.Â*Â*

Democracy comes from the belief in many gods.Â*Â*There is no way Christianity, a belief in only one God who has absolute power and rules by whim, could develop a concept of democracy, rule by the many and rule by reason, the universal laws.Â*Â*It was this evolved Athenian understanding of God, a God of reason and universal laws, that made Athens the father of our sciences, and democracy depends on science for truth, not a God who rules by whim and is explained with mythology.Â*Â* The big difference is one God rules by whim and humans can influence this God, can please or displease this God, and the other God and universal law, just exist.Â*Â*We can not please or displease this God, but we can learn the universal laws and then govern ourselves wisely.Â*Â* We are the masters of our own fate, not a God who plays with humans and makes bets with Satan on what humans will do like the Greek Gods of mythology.Â*Â*The Athenians moved beyond this mythology and that is what makes democracy possible.Â*Â*

This is where democracy came from, it is in the quote that begins this thread "Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighbouring states; we are an inspiration to others, rather than imitators ourselves. Its administration favours the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy". Did you read the quote? Before this literacy, Christians had a class society enforced by religious beliefs about God's will.

[Athena]

By the way, on the issue of Christianity vs science: that is a false dichotomy.Â*Â*It is again from the Christian worldview that scientic study ultimately springs.Â*Â*As you know as a Greek scholar, the Greeks (as the Romans, Mesopotamians, and most other religions) believed in a random world that was at the whim of the gods.Â*Â*Since life could be altered at any time based on whether Zeus or Tiamat or whomever was having a bad hair day, there was no true belief in an ordered universe.Â*Â*The world was truly random.Â*Â*Contrast that with the Judeo-Christian worldview that says that God created the universe, that he ordered in in a certain way (as described in Genesis), and that we have dominion over it (which, since we have dominion, which is a responsibility to protect, it assumes that we can udnerstand it).Â*Â*Since, in this worldview, the universe has order and reason, and stands that it can also be studied and understood.Â*Â*This isn't to say that other cultures didn't make advancements, because we know they surely did.Â*Â*But it was the Christian who first sought science as an art.Â*Â*If you study science from its inception as an art (or field of study), the bulk of all true scientific study and philosophy leading all the way to the so-called Enlightenment was done by Christians.Â*Â*This naturally makes sense, because Christians have the worldview that says we can do this.Â*Â*Galileo, Copernicus, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton; they all willfully spoke from a Christian worldview (which shouldn't be confused with catholic dogma that sought to oppress knowledge that they felt challenged faith, when those they were oppressing were speaking from a point of faith).Â*Â*

The true faith vs science battle began with the Enlightenment when the hubris and arrogance of what man thought man had accomplished (not wanting to give the credit back to the worldview that made it all possible) began to compete with claims that our knowledge was a gift from God.Â*Â*That debate has continued and intensified ever since, until it is at the point now where people don't realize that Christians aren't in any way against science.Â*Â*We see it as a gift from God, but one to be used wisely and with restraint (speaking for example of cloning).


Oh my God, I can't believe you said what said! Galileo was forbidden to speak truth! He was put under house arrest and lived his last days in fear for his life. The church wouldn't even look through his telescope and see for themselves that the spheres in the sky were not prefect round spheres. The church was maintaining false religious beliefs by persecuting those who dared say anything not approved of by the church, and to this day, Christians are trying to repress the scientific explanation of evolution, and have all schools teach the biblical story of creation instead. A story of creation that is the Hebrew translation of a Sumerian story! I must get on with other things, and will get back to you later. At least you know enough to engage in discussion and say something that can lead to the next thought. This is a huge improvement. I will return.

[kanyon40]

Thanks for your "help" but I can assure you that I don't need it. The claim that Plato, Aristotle, and Cicero were very important to the evolving Christianity is as uniformed as you claim my points are. These classical scholars were used over a brief period by theologians such as Thomas Aquinas and the effect was that it did such violence to the Christian faith as found in scripture that it was a main point that the Protestant Reformers (such as John Calvin) and even modern theologians (Cornelius Van Til for example) worked to fix.

As to how the Christian worldfiew of the founding fathers (and I understand that they weren't all Christians, but deism holds the same worldview without having the dogma, which is why many were attracted to it) is expressed:

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.� [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]- Patrick Henry

The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.- Thomas Jefferson (Our liberties come from God is a fundamental point of the Christian worldview.)

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.- Thomas Jefferson (Where did this self evidence come from? Especially if they came from a place of rebellion and oppression? It comes from the Christian worldview that affirms that life itself IS valuable and that God is the one from whom such rights flow. You don't see this in the Nihilistic worldview. You don't see it in Islam. You don't see it in eastern religions.)

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]- John Adams and John Hancock

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.�
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.�
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798- John Adams

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson- John Adams

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.� [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]- Samuel Adams

“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.- John Quincy Adams

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." - Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel� –Constitutional Convention of 1787- Ben Franklin

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?� [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]- Ben Frankilin

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]- Alexander Hamilton

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."- Alexander Hamilton

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"- John Hancock

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.�- Thomas Jefferson

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."- Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.� (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]- Thomas Jefferson

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.�-James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.� [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]- James Madison

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]- James Madison

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.�- Sounds an awful lot like the system we adopted.

Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.- James McHenry, Signer of the Constitution

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."- Jedediah Morse

“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.�
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.� “The Existence of God--1810�- Thomas Paine (I like this one, it also supports my claim that science comes from the Christian worldview.)

“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.� “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.� [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]- Benjamin Rush

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education�
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.�
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
-Justice Joseph Story

“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.�
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
- Justice Joseph Story

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.�
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]- Noah Webster

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]- Noah Webster

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.� [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]- It is worth noting that children were taught basic education by using the bible in colonial and early America.

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."- Goerge Washington, exerpted from his farewell address

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.�- George Washington

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.� [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]- George Washington


Is that enough quotes to back up my claim that it was upon the Christian worldview that this great nation was founded? If not, I can get you some more. =-)

[kanyon40]

Furthermore, as I have argued elsewhere, just because the Church censored Galileo doesn't change the worldview that he came from nor does it change that he didn't feel that his views on science conflicted with the Christian faith. In the end, it turns out he was right. Again you are making a false assumption that the misuse of and oppression by the Roman Church at a point in history is somehow akin to what kind of worldview is fostered by scripture.

[kanyon40]

One of the interesting things that is common to many of the quotes is that the founding fathers felt that if we lost that Christian worldview and its underlying morality, that the democracy founded upon it would fall into the same tyranny and oppression as we have seen elsewhere where true biblical morality was never actually used by the government. Isn't that exactly what we see today in America? More and more the Christian roots of this country are denied (as you have been denying them thus far hehe), Christianity is becoming more and more marginalized and completely separated from our government (this isn't to say that the government should be turning us into Christians, but even the moral principles of CHristianity that were necessary for this country to be founded are being rejected within our government), and at the same time our country is falling to peices. Seems like the founding fathers were right in their predictions.

[Mayberry]

I am so glad somone who is literate is posting. I don't have time to read ancient scribble because I have to work 2 jobs to pay for all your socialist BS. Calling me illiterate (which you are) merely displays your own ignorance. Kanyon has a degree in the subject, so he has the knowledge to explore every subtle nuance. I have the basic understanding of the concept in general, which is all I think I really need in this day and age. I also posess the powers of reason and common sense, which allow me to form educated opinions and beliefs from reading information. Calling someone illiterate because they do not have the in depth knowledge of ONE SUBJECT is ignorant. One must be reasonably well versed in a variety of subjects to make truly informed decisions today. Seems like the founding fathers were right in their predictions. That's the reason the Constitution was written the way it was. It has now been bastardized beyond recognition.

[tony mitra]

One of the interesting things that is common to many of the quotes is that the founding fathers felt that if we lost that Christian worldview and its underlying morality, that the democracy founded upon it would fall into the same tyranny and oppression as we have seen elsewhere where true biblical morality was never actually used by the government. Isn't that exactly what we see today in America? More and more the Christian roots of this country are denied (as you have been denying them thus far hehe), Christianity is becoming more and more marginalized and completely separated from our government (this isn't to say that the government should be turning us into Christians, but even the moral principles of CHristianity that were necessary for this country to be founded are being rejected within our government), and at the same time our country is falling to peices. Seems like the founding fathers were right in their predictions.


I am not sure how the founding fathers of the US constitution felt about the Chuch and the state, but if they really believed that one needed to be a Christian in order to have democracy, then I'd say they were wrong. Japan, or Korea or Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka and a whole lot of other nations would not have Democracy, since they are not majority Christians.

The history, however, shows different. Many of them had to kick the Colonial Christians out, before they could have democracy. In fact, more nations have been subjugated, colonized and enslaved by Christian democracies, than perhaps anybody else after times of Ghengis Khan.

If Christianity indeed had an underlying morality, the great European Empires of France, Spain and England would not have come about, America would till be habitated by American Indians, buffalo would still roam the land, Australia, New Zealand, Greenland, South Africa etc would have different demography than in has today, and global warming would have not been a hot topic.

Also, the Romans had Democracy before the birth of Christ.

One could very well argue, that Democracy eventualy flourished in spite of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism and the rest.

Cheers.

[Athena]

Thanks Tony, you made excellent points. Actually Christianity teaches a hiarchy of authority. Protestantism changed the order of authority, shifting from the Popes authority to the bible as authority, still making Christians authorities over pagans, thus you have Christians who invade, and kill, and take the land and exploit the inhabitants. Their favorite reasoning being God tells the Hebrews land was promised to them and they were to kill everyone on the land to take it and claim it as theirs. In there reasoning they are distained to rule the world. Unfortunately, Moslems also hold this belief, but it is Islam that is consume the world.

The bible also says only Hebrews can not be slaves, because of their special relationship with God, however, they can own slaves who are inherited by their children when they die. God also told these people what foods not to eat, and that they could give the food unfit for them to eat to non Hebrews. This is clearly a tribal God, not the universal God that comes with Hellenism and Roman democracy.

[tony mitra]

This is clearly a tribal God, not the universal God that comes with Hellenism and Roman democracy.


After reading your detailed description through, I feel that if God, universal, tribal, democratic or authoritarian, came with the Greeks and Romans, He should have stayed with them. I do not necessarily like institutionalized religion, and particularly of the type that have missionary arms. I do not know if the Jews have that, but Christians and Muslims do. Buddhists did have a missionary arm too, but have gone rather quiet in the last few millennia.

I do not like missionaries because their "mission" is to convert people. As soon as you believe in converting anybody, you already hold the idea that your God and your religion is superior to the others.

That, politely speaking, is a lot of bull, and has created fissures in society ever since. World was perhaps a happier place, before man created the modern God.

Well, thats how I feel anyway.

Good topic though, and I am very impressed by your knowledge on the subject, honestly. :)

[Athena]

I, in turn, truly appreciate someone who can discuss the subject intelligently.

The huge difference between democracy and religion, is Athena taught men to make laws for themselves, and religion claims a God gave man law. The Christian conflict with the Muslims, who insist they do not need a constitution because they have their holy book is, schizophenic. Christians have never fully embraced democracy, because they haven't grasped the pagan concepts on which democracy depends. Their religion won't let them do this.

Democracy is rule by reason. This comes from the philosophical concept that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe. Even the gods are controlled by reason, and democracy is in imitation of the gods, a family of brothers and sisters, as opposed to the king and slave relationships of the bible. Christianity only half way embrassed this brotherly and sisterly love idea. As the bible teaches this is a tribal loyality, for those with the tribal God of Abraham, not a universeal God and love of mankind that comes from Hellenism. However, Quakers have done better than other branches of Christianity, and some preachers attempt to bridge this awkward gap between a jealous and revengeful God and a universe one.

Today's Christians have lost memory of that impact of Hellenism and Roman empiralism on what was the Hebrew religion based on a tribal god, the God of Abraham. Christians still aren't getting what rule by reason is all about. It is far worse today than it was 80 years ago when education served a social purpose, instead of producing products to serve the Military, Industrial Complex and leaving moral training to the church. Today's Christianity is lacking education in necessary understanding of democracy, and it is a serious problem to us now. Making the conflict with Muslims paranoid /schziod.

I favored Judism over Christianity because it is not a missionary religion. However, it has its major problems too, expecially as it is played out through other religions, but this is another thread.

[David Hume]

This isn't to be mean or sarcastic, but is actually a real question so I know where to go with this thread... what is your point? I am a pastor of a Christian Church and also have a double minor in college in both greek history and classical studies (greek civilization and mythology), but I am not sure what the connection between Pericles' funeral oration and Christ is.

It is of note that while democracy did exist before Christ, it is the Judeo-Christian worldview that places the highest value on human life and that is the foundation of the most powerful, successful democracy in history. (Though I post that while being truly uncertain of the purpose of the thread so if you are looking to go somewhere else with this, then ignore this last paragraph.) =-)


In truth, for most of its history, the Church has been hostile to democracy. The Church colluded with various of Europe's monarchs to suppress reason, logic, common-sense, and democracy.

It wasn't until the American colonies were established that democracy began to truly emerge. There were seeds of it already in England after the Magna Carta was written, but they had borne little fruit by the time of the American Revolution.

And it is very important to remember that those at the forefront of this Revolution (Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Madison, Morris, Franklin, et al) were not Christians at all, but enlightened Deists who recognized that the only true way to make democracy fluorish was to remove it from the shackles of religion. It was Jefferson who said that nowhere had culture fluorished when chained to the tyranny of the Church. Paine took it many steps further in his book The Age of Reason.

I too hold many degrees, including advanced degrees in history & archaeology. I only post that bit of info here in order to blunt the edge of your own level of education that you seemed to post only to position yourself as more established to comment on this topic. Because, although you are well-educated, it does appear that you remain largely ignorant (and I do mean that in the most polite manner possible) of the well-established fact that culture only truly makes great advances when not chained to the unreasonableness of religious dogma. Societies in decline also share another common denominator: an emergence of fundamentalism. . .

[Athena]

This isn't to be mean or sarcastic, but is actually a real question so I know where to go with this thread... what is your point? I am a pastor of a Christian Church and also have a double minor in college in both greek history and classical studies (greek civilization and mythology), but I am not sure what the connection between Pericles' funeral oration and Christ is.

It is of note that while democracy did exist before Christ, it is the Judeo-Christian worldview that places the highest value on human life and that is the foundation of the most powerful, successful democracy in history. (Though I post that while being truly uncertain of the purpose of the thread so if you are looking to go somewhere else with this, then ignore this last paragraph.) =-)


In truth, for most of its history, the Church has been hostile to democracy. The Church colluded with various of Europe's monarchs to suppress reason, logic, common-sense, and democracy.

It wasn't until the American colonies were established that democracy began to truly emerge. There were seeds of it already in England after the Magna Carta was written, but they had borne little fruit by the time of the American Revolution.

And it is very important to remember that those at the forefront of this Revolution (Washington, Paine, Jefferson, Madison, Morris, Franklin, et al) were not Christians at all, but enlightened Deists who recognized that the only true way to make democracy fluorish was to remove it from the shackles of religion. It was Jefferson who said that nowhere had culture fluorished when chained to the tyranny of the Church. Paine took it many steps further in his book The Age of Reason.

I too hold many degrees, including advanced degrees in history & archaeology. I only post that bit of info here in order to blunt the edge of your own level of education that you seemed to post only to position yourself as more established to comment on this topic. Because, although you are well-educated, it does appear that you remain largely ignorant (and I do mean that in the most polite manner possible) of the well-established fact that culture only truly makes great advances when not chained to the unreasonableness of religious dogma. Societies in decline also share another common denominator: an emergence of fundamentalism. . .



My goodness so much has been said here, worthy of consideration.

Dear Kanyon40, may I respectfully direct you to the video tapes of college lectures "Great Minds of the Western Intellectual Tradition", by the Teaching Company. You can access them through the Internet, or perhaps your local library. This will increase understanding of how Hellenism transformed a tribal religion, centered around the God of Abraham, into Christianity and a universal God, and then Islam. What you can do as preacher is, correct many of the falses teachings of Christianity. Such as everything good is credited to Christians and all bad comes from non Christians. The good in Christianity comes in part from the Hebrews, but also in part from Hellenism, the Stoics, Plato, Aristotle, and Greek writers who give us concepts such as "In the beginning was the word".

You make a good point about the difference between the western value of life and the oriental value of life. This is so import, we should perhaps create a thread for this purpose.

However, the goodness of our lives is not to the credit of Christians who historical repress scientific proof and education. It is science, and what we have been able to do with science, that separates the modern western civilization from the Muslem cultures, that are in the state of evolving, that Christianity was in a couple of hundred years ago. If only the prediction that Iraq would crumble into religious feuding had not been accurate, perhaps the influx of western technology into this region, could have brought about the democratic advancement that Bush would have loved to manifest. What made our nation so great was the excitement of discovering we can save lives with sanitation and immunization, and other scientific knowledge. This thinking was made possible by turning away from the bible for explanations of truth, and doing as Galileo argued, turning to the truth that God made manifest- nature. Something many Christians still argue agianst. Both Christians and Muslims need to embrace the truth manifest in nature, and let go of some ideas that no longer serve us well. Reading Cicero and his explanation of the God of Nature, of which Jefferson wrote, would be very helpful to your understanding of the difference between democracy and religion.

Dear David Hume, thank you for adding the information about our founding fathers and Deism. This is so vital to our understanding of democracy. Botta wrote one of the first history books about the United States. Jefferson, Madison and Adams, personally thanked him for writing this book. We can know that because their appreciation is expressed in the beginning of the book. Botta wrote, these men were not just Protestants, but were protesting Protestantism.

Every citizen of the US should be fully aware that the God of deism is not the intervening of God of the bible. Jefferson edited the bible to be compatible with science, and Kanyon40 might appreciate a copy of this edited bible. These men were rebelling against what religion mixed with government was doing to mankind. My heart aches when Christians assert it is Christianity we have to thank for our democracy, because this is so far from the truth. Cicero was not Christian, and his knowledge as a Roman statesman and political thinking, is vital to our democracy. The truth about democracy we need to know is not in the bible.

The distortion of truth, that Christianity made our nation great is very serious. This falsehood is justifying a war that should not be happening, and the falsehood sure is not the seeds of truth that can restore peace, but is a lie that is a big part of the problem.

Yes, the founding fathers believed in God and thought the teachings of Jesus were vailable, but their concept of God was not the interfering God of the bible. Unfortunately, religions can not make the transition to a more learned concept of God, because they can not justify their religious institutions if they do that. However, democracy is above all this religious bickering and is the literacy essentail to the light of the torch, which stands for enlightenment, and our liberty.

Our Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment. I am deeply thankful to all who labor to increase awareness of what our democracy is all about. Again, thank you David Humes.

PS. the rule that prevents me from breaking my response into more digestible, smaller post is regretable. I dislike such lengthy post myself, and the critism I get for writing them. It is unfortunate those who are most needy of such information are the least likely to read long post.

[David Hume]

Well, Athena, I for one read your entire post & appreciated its content. I'm simply keeping up the fine tradition of our Founding Fathers/Deists, and it upsets me greatly as well whenever I see (usually well-meaning) Christians co-opt our nation's incredible history for their own (often nefarious) purposes.

It especially chagrins me when I see hypocrites at the top echelons of government use the teeming masses to further their own ends to economic gain at the expense of every else. It is well known that Karl Rove referred to the evangelical leaders & their followers as "the nuts" yet used their sheer numbers to enact perhaps the most underhanded blows to the Constitution imaginable. The overtly religious have proven themselves gullible and highly susceptible to manipulation (gay marriage, stem cells, etc.), which turns them out in high numbers in order to sway the outcomes of elections to ensure that the aristocracy of this nation can continue to rape & pillage for their own benefit but at the expense of everyone else on the planet, including us in these United States.

So, yes, I will continue to point out the truth about the founding of our nation and the true backgrounds & intentions of our Founders. I will not allow the truth to be co-opted for nefarious purposes. I encourage everyone to have an open mind & seek out the truth for themselves. Do not rely on the lies & propaganda of the conservative media for your "truth." Rely on yourself. America is, so conservatives tell us, about self-reliance. Don't just take my word for it. Rely on yourself to discover the truth. I challenge you. I dare you. . .

[preservanation]

It especially chagrins me when I see hypocrites at the top echelons of government use the teeming masses to further their own ends to economic gain at the expense of every else.Amen, Brother.

[Athena]

Well, Athena, I for one read your entire post & appreciated its content. I'm simply keeping up the fine tradition of our Founding Fathers/Deists, and it upsets me greatly as well whenever I see (usually well-meaning) Christians co-opt our nation's incredible history for their own (often nefarious) purposes.

It especially chagrins me when I see hypocrites at the top echelons of government use the teeming masses to further their own ends to economic gain at the expense of every else. It is well known that Karl Rove referred to the evangelical leaders & their followers as "the nuts" yet used their sheer numbers to enact perhaps the most underhanded blows to the Constitution imaginable. The overtly religious have proven themselves gullible and highly susceptible to manipulation (gay marriage, stem cells, etc.), which turns them out in high numbers in order to sway the outcomes of elections to ensure that the aristocracy of this nation can continue to rape & pillage for their own benefit but at the expense of everyone else on the planet, including us in these United States.

So, yes, I will continue to point out the truth about the founding of our nation and the true backgrounds & intentions of our Founders. I will not allow the truth to be co-opted for nefarious purposes. I encourage everyone to have an open mind & seek out the truth for themselves. Do not rely on the lies & propaganda of the conservative media for your "truth." Rely on yourself. America is, so conservatives tell us, about self-reliance. Don't just take my word for it. Rely on yourself to discover the truth. I challenge you. I dare you. . .



You really pushed my buttons with those words. :ecstatic: :fight:

In 1958 when the National Defense Education Act took effect, we literally began teaching our young how to use their brains differently, than how we were teaching them to use their brains. The result is a mass that is easily lead and incapable of independent thinking.

I have met some young people who are really sharp, and seem to have escape the mass damage that has been to our ability to think. Those who read this may be the exception. I don't want to make anyone defensive, but I want to wake the nation up to what was done.

Education in the US served a social purpose, transmitting a culture essential to our liberty. It was the education Jefferson had in mind when he said, to make our republic strong, we must divide the country into school districts and provide education for all children, teaching how to best protect their liberty and freedom. This is not education for technology. Past education had a lot of science, as science is to democracy, what the bible is to autocracy. Liberal education does not mean, devoid of science, and education for technology does not mean education for science, as people have wrongly assumed.

We replaced education for independent thinking, which internalize authority and prepared youth for adulthood, with "group think" making individuals dependent on authority, and leaving them unprepared for life. You can observe the social change by compare Star Trek with Star Trek the Next Generation. Kirk was the John Wayne of space and Picard is the "group thinker". All the good values thrown into the next generation, leads to believe the intentions of this change were good. However, the good intentions were short sighted. Group thinking may be great if you have good leaders, but it sucks if you do not have good leaders. Christianity preconditioned us for this devastating event in our democracy.

Effectively, what we have is a mechanical society, or to up date this concept, a computer run society. This society is dependent on bureaucratic changes that unfortunately no one is prepared to discuss, however, these bureaucratic changes are essential to Social Security and congress having the time to pass a bill, to determine how much water is flushed down a toilet. Did you know, we actually have a federal law regulating how much water is flushed down the toilet? Well we do. This new bureaucracy can regulate the details of lives much more effeciently than past bureaucratic form. And is far more powerful than Saddam very dreamed of being. This bureaucracy is the mother board of the computer, and all the rest of us are programmed components.

Education has been so changed, the young don't have a clue about the reasoning of the old. The break between generations is like the break between the original Star Trek and Star Trek the New Generation. I don't think, every before in the history of humanity, has the break between generations been so dramatic. Welcome to the New World Order. This is what we defended our democracy against.

[Truth_and_Power]

I don't think catholic christianity supports democracy. Just look at the structure of the religion.. strictly heirarchical. Protestant christianity on the other hand supports a direct connection between the voter and the government -- oops -- I mean the worshipper and god. See what I mean?

[David Hume]

Athena, my kid's teachers feel REALLY challenged by my kids because I'm well aware of how schools teach conformity as the A#1 agenda item. My kids know they are to challenge everything. And they do so often. My high-schooler doesn't let much BS get by her BS detector. . .

[namguy]

"Government by the people and for the people..." That a freken joke:shame:

[Truth_and_Power]

Athena, my kid's teachers feel REALLY challenged by my kids because I'm well aware of how schools teach conformity as the A#1 agenda item. My kids know they are to challenge everything. And they do so often. My high-schooler doesn't let much BS get by her BS detector. . .


I had that problem a lot. The intelligent teachers loved me, the stupid ones absolutely hated me. Any time the needed a bad example for their illustration, they'd pick on me. Constant. There's nothing a dumb teacher hates more than a kid that is already smarter than her/him.

[namguy]

I don't think catholic christianity supports democracy. Just look at the structure of the religion.. strictly heirarchical. Protestant christianity on the other hand supports a direct connection between the voter and the government -- oops -- I mean the worshipper and god. See what I mean?


Catholic's, I wouldn't classify the Catholic Church, broadly speaking, necessarly 'Christian' as such.:peace: It depends on, in depth I might add, as too just what the Catholic Church actually believes in. They have a lot of beliefs thay inject into being a Christian.

[David Hume]

Athena, my kid's teachers feel REALLY challenged by my kids because I'm well aware of how schools teach conformity as the A#1 agenda item. My kids know they are to challenge everything. And they do so often. My high-schooler doesn't let much BS get by her BS detector. . .


I had that problem a lot. The intelligent teachers loved me, the stupid ones absolutely hated me. Any time the needed a bad example for their illustration, they'd pick on me. Constant. There's nothing a dumb teacher hates more than a kid that is already smarter than her/him.


I was that guy in my high school. Luckily, I had the best lit & trig teachers. My lit teacher recognized that I was a "free thinker" right from the get-go & her putting Paine's works in my hands set me on quite a path in life. My trig teacher showed me the really cool stories of the cosmos.

The rest of the teachers were pathetic. A few born-agains in the lot, for good measure. I can hardly wait for my 4-year-old to get a bit older. I see a lot of me in him. He's gonna be a challenge, but I'm looking forward to it immensely.