What is considered "Un-American?"

[micfranklin]

I was asking myself this just the other day and I was wondering what is Un-American. So what do you guys think is Un-American?

[underdawg]

People who think it is better to give up constitutional freedoms for a false sense of security seems pretty un-American to me.

[AnnEsthesia]

People who feel that only the unquestioning following of the nation's leaders is 'patriotic' are pretty un-american.

[Scorpion]

We certainly wouldn't want a secure country even if it meant some slight inconvenience and how dare any real American preach patriotism and respect for government.

I'm starting to think that if I looked up Un-American in the dictionary it would say "See liberal."

[AnnEsthesia]

This country was founded by people who questioned the status quo. I find it bizarre and insulting to their legacy when people use 'un-american' against anyone who does not just accept whatever happens in this country. And guess what? It is not just nasty mean liberals who question this administration. *rolls eyes*

But thanks for again calling all "liberals" un-american. How nice that those on the conservative side of things can keep themselves above such mud-slinging stupidity.

[Phyxius]

People who:

1) Wipe their ass with the constitution

2) Start and support an illegal war, and then abandon the wounded of that war after they are of no further use to the war machine

3) Give no-bid contracts to their buddies who profit from said illegal wars, losing BILLIONS of dollars that cannot be accounted for

4) Wreck the economy of their own country to the point that the other G8 nations are holding an emergency meeting to try and figure out how to stabilize that country's currency and how to deal with the worldwide consequences if they can't

5) Do all of this while waving the flag, fearmongering and calling anyone who dare question such asinine stupidity and arrogance Un-American

THAT is what I call Un-American.


Look up the word "NeoCon" or "Republican"... :fight:

[micfranklin]

"Bush" would fit well with that description pretty well too.

[Phyxius]

"Bush" would fit well with that description pretty well too.


Or any idiot who still walks in lockstep with him... :ponder:

[Scorpion]

But thanks for again calling all "liberals" un-american. How nice that those on the conservative side of things can keep themselves above such mud-slinging stupidity.


Relax. In this case you're confusing the truth with mudslinging. Unfortunately the truth is often difficult to accept. Especially if you're a liberal. That's why one of the primary responsibilities shouldered by conservatives is looking out for the best interests of liberals.

It's ok. No thanks necessary.[hr]
Look up the word "NeoCon" or "Republican".


Ok, I did. It says see patriot.

[AnnEsthesia]

But thanks for again calling all "liberals" un-american. How nice that those on the conservative side of things can keep themselves above such mud-slinging stupidity.


Relax. In this case you're confusing the truth with mudslinging. Unfortunately the truth is often difficult to accept. Especially if you're a liberal. That's why one of the primary responsibilities shouldered by conservatives is looking out for the best interests of liberals.

It's ok. No thanks necessary.


Yea, um... just because you think I and other liberals are 'un-american' does not make it so. Until or unless you are a wizard with the magical ability to make your beliefs real, you are just shooting out of your ass and being a real pill. Honestly, why do you have to be such a fucking jerk?

All of you conservatives who sit on self-created pedestals and proclaim yourselves to be the only ones who are 'true americans' and how all liberals are 'un-american' can shove your little 'tudes right where the sun does not shine.

[Scorpion]

But thanks for again calling all "liberals" un-american. How nice that those on the conservative side of things can keep themselves above such mud-slinging stupidity.


Relax. In this case you're confusing the truth with mudslinging. Unfortunately the truth is often difficult to accept. Especially if you're a liberal. That's why one of the primary responsibilities shouldered by conservatives is looking out for the best interests of liberals.

It's ok. No thanks necessary.


Yea, um... just because you think I and other liberals are 'un-american' does not make it so. Until or unless you are a wizard with the magical ability to make your beliefs real, you are just shooting out of your ass and being a real pill. Honestly, why do you have to be such a fucking jerk?

All of you conservatives who sit on self-created pedestals and proclaim yourselves to be the only ones who are 'true americans' and how all liberals are 'un-american' can shove your little 'tudes right where the sun does not shine.


AnnE, my goodness. "Shooting out of your ass?" "Fucking jerk?" The language. What would Matt Damon say? Why is it that liberals can't debate without slipping in a bit of foul mouth when they get frustrated and recognize the ineptitude of their political folly?

[AnnEsthesia]

Why is it that conservatives feel the need to be assholes and speak to others as if they are perfect and everyone else is wrong and need to be just like them? Sorry, I am sick of it. No, I am not inept. Yes I am frustrated. If you cannot be civil and cut the crap on your 'liberals are unamerican' bullshit, then why exactly should I be polite to you? It is not exactly civil to question the patriotism of more than half of this forum, whether you wrap it in sickeningly sweet sarcasm or not.

If you choose to be a partisan hack, then I will treat you like one. It is sad too, since I really did like you... but how can I respect and like someone who goes out of his way to be insulting?[hr]BTW, Matt Damon publicly stated that we should send the Bush twins to Iraq and then see how long it takes for Daddy Dearest to end the war with his own kids on the line. So yea, I think he would be ok with me standing up and saying that ya'll stating liberals are un-american is pure and unadulterated BS.

[Scorpion]

Why is it that conservatives feel the need to be assholes and speak to others as if they are perfect and everyone else is wrong and need to be just like them? Sorry, I am sick of it. No, I am not inept. Yes I am frustrated. If you cannot be civil and cut the crap on your 'liberals are unamerican' bullshit, then why exactly should I be polite to you? It is not exactly civil to question the patriotism of more than half of this forum, whether you wrap it in sickeningly sweet sarcasm or not.

If you choose to be a partisan hack, then I will treat you like one. It is sad too, since I really did like you... but how can I respect and like someone who goes out of his way to be insulting?[hr]BTW, Matt Damon publicly stated that we should send the Bush twins to Iraq and then see how long it takes for Daddy Dearest to end the war with his own kids on the line. So yea, I think he would be ok with me standing up and saying that ya'll stating liberals are un-american is pure and unadulterated BS.


AnnE, we're doing exactly what is the purpose of this forum. Debating political issues which includes political position, conservative v. liberal if you will. In my case, I've debated my position without the needless use of invectives. Have you? No. Disagree with you and here comes the vitriole I'd suggest that you reconsider your indignation and baseless claim of a lack of civility on my part. Partisan hack? Not likely.

At any rate, it's political discussion which at times can get a bit heated. Such is how politics is. Like it or not.

[moses2792796]

I laugh at these arguments, 'the left sux', "no the right sux" etc. It's so incredibly pointless and without meaning, if we're going to debate, we should stick to actual issues, because these left vs. right debates never go anywhere.

[AnnEsthesia]

AnnE, we're doing exactly what is the purpose of this forum. Debating political issues which includes political position, conservative v. liberal if you will. In my case, I've debated my position without the needless use of invectives. Have you? No. Disagree with you and here comes the vitriole I'd suggest that you reconsider your indignation and baseless claim of a lack of civility on my part. Partisan hack? Not likely.

At any rate, it's political discussion which at times can get a bit heated. Such is how politics is. Like it or not.


One can debate politics without claiming every liberal is un-american. And excuse the hell out of me, but doing that is NOT civil. As I said, use all the pretty words and sweet tone you want... you are being rude and partisan and I am sick of it from you and all the others on your side.

How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground.

And so sorry if you dislike my language. I really could care less at this point. If you are just going to continue with your 'unamerican' bs, let's just cut through the frosting and expose the bullshit.

You have shown your lack of respect for more than half of this forum and if I am not in the mood to play all nicey nice and pretend that you are not being fucking rude.. oh well. :)[hr]BTW, moses, I have NOT said "the right sucks". I have said the conservatives using these BS tactics suck. And they do. Really, all you people are trying to do is drive a wedge in this community. Woohoo, you rock!

[Scorpion]

People who feel that only the unquestioning following of the nation's leaders is 'patriotic' are pretty un-american.


So AnnE, apparently it is ok for you to question someones patriotism but not me. Right?

Can you say disengenuous.

[AnnEsthesia]

I did not question your patriotism, dear. Why did you only quote a part of what I said and leave off the rest? I said that this country was founded by people who fought the status quo, so to proclaim that anyone who questions the government is 'unamerican' is in itself 'unamerican.' Next time, actually quote the whole statement and not just the piece out of context that you feel makes your case. M'kay?

[Scorpion]

How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground.



AnnE, your words, "People who feel that only the unquestioning following of the nation's leaders is 'patriotic' are pretty un-american."

Then you said, "How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground."

So again I say that you're being disengenuous for applying a double standard when you see fit.

[AnnEsthesia]

How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground.



AnnE, your words, "People who feel that only the unquestioning following of the nation's leaders is 'patriotic' are pretty un-american."

Then you said, "How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground."

So again I say that you're being disengenuous for applying a double standard when you see fit.


Um... right back at you, Mr. "All Liberals Are Un-American." And by the way, I said the people were unamerican by their actions, not who they are. You categorize people based on there political beliefs without any qualifiers. I at least have the ability to not label the whole for the sins of the few. I will not be condemning every conservative on here just because you choose the low road. But spin away from up there on your pedestal. Us lowly evil liberals (not that I even really am a liberal) know we are not what you try to say we are.

[Scorpion]

How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground.



AnnE, your words, "People who feel that only the unquestioning following of the nation's leaders is 'patriotic' are pretty un-american."

Then you said, "How dare you question my or anyone else's patriotism? The moment you did that, you lost the right to claim moral high ground."

So again I say that you're being disengenuous for applying a double standard when you see fit.


Um... right back at you, Mr. "All Liberals Are Un-American." And by the way, I said the people were unamerican by their actions, not who they are. You categorize people based on there political beliefs without any qualifiers. I at least have the ability to not label the whole for the sins of the few. I will not be condemning every conservative on here just because you choose the low road. But spin away from up there on your pedestal. Us lowly evil liberals (not that I even really am a liberal) know we are not what you try to say we are.


None of that or your opinion of me excuses your applying a double standard to the issue of patriotism.

Have a pleasant evening.

[AnnEsthesia]

What double standard? Pointing out that to say someone who questions the government is NOT un-american is not a double standard. You have time and again said liberals are 'un-american' so you hardly have the right to complain if I point out someone's actions are 'un-american'. Stop claiming that all liberals or all people who question the government are un-american and there will be no problem.

*rolls eyes*

[PatrickHenry]

Un-American is an American who is "un" for some reason or another.

Heh. I think patriotism is bullsh*t anyhow.

What is there to love about America?

The political system that was initiated by the Founders has been superceded.

There a lotta nice people, but that's true of every place in the whole world. There's a lotta nice scenery, ditto.

So what is there to love?

Patriotism is BS. Just don't f*ck with me and we're all good.

[preservanation]

I laugh at these arguments, 'the left sux', "no the right sux" etc. It's so incredibly pointless and without meaning, if we're going to debate, we should stick to actual issues, because these left vs. right debates never go anywhere.
Oh, jeezus,
moses taking the high minded attitude that he above all the partisan political fray?
A nice tactic to take when one has nothing to add, but betrays reality.
Right vs left debates are the cornerstone of our Democracy. The final judgment on who won, will be in Nov '08 and all other subsequent elections.

The libs seem to be so touchy on this subject that I think they are struggling with some very uncomfortable internal conflicts.
I can see why.
Their positions are conflicting and in a lot of cases they have painted themselves into a corner.

"We love America...but it's a racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, violent, imperial nation which forces it's will all over the globe and murders innocent children in order to enrich it's corporations".

"We want to win in Iraq...but want to pull out all the troops".

"We support the troops...but they are rapists and murderers who volunteered to carry out Bush's maniacal and nefarious war."

"We want energy independence...but oppose building new refineries, and any sort of exploration or drilling."

"High gas prices are hurting the poor and making it impossible for them to feed their children or afford to drive to work...but we want to raise taxes on gas."

I would be touchy too if I had to square all this falderall within my heart and mind as well.

[AnnEsthesia]

Ah yes, another conservatroid who thinks they know all liberals better than the liberals know themselves. What a crock.

[preservanation]

I'm just repeating what I hear from elected libs, as well as unelected ones, some... not all.
I am not singling anyone out personally.
I think, in this case, defensiveness is an outgrowth of the internal conflicts going on within the individuals.

[AnnEsthesia]

Or maybe we are just reacting because you are wrong and you are trying to say that every liberal is the same? Nah! No one would every react when accused of being something or feeling or thinking something they are not. That would never happen.

And thanks, I am not conflicted and I doubt any of the other 'liberals' here are either. Perhaps you are thinking of yourself and projecting? :)

[preservanation]

Attempting political jujitsu in a hospital gown can be embarr-assing.

I never said all libs are the same, as a matter of fact the exact opposite.

I just was commenting on how defensive some libs get when the subject of patriotism is discussed.

I don't think conservatives are conflicted about their "Americanism", but it seems some libs are.

[AnnEsthesia]

preserv, don't be an ass. Read through the threads. Who has been vocally denouncing "liberals" and claiming they are un-american, hate the country, etc.

I get it, you feel we should just silently sit back and take it, but guess what? We won't. It is wrong for conservatives to use that bs to smear liberals... just as it would be wrong if liberals were doing it.

If you do not want a negative reaction, then get your fellow conservatroids to stop saying that 'liberals' are un-american. If they want to point to a specific liberal and give examples of why they are un-american, go for it, but to claim all liberals are anything when we are a very diverse group (not that I am a true liberal) is just beyond dumb and edging toward trollish behavior.

[preservanation]

Case in point...
Robert Jensen (Professor, University of Texas)
"[Americans must pursue] the most courageous act of citizenship in the United States today: pledging to dismantle the American empire. The United States has lost the war in Iraq, and that's a good thing." The dismantling of America is the utmost expression of patriotism?
I guarantee this Prof is not a conservative.
I would wager he would describe himself as a wee bit left of center.
When I hear this stuff, and I do quite often, what I'm I supposed to think?
EST
Protesters Urge 'Storm the White House'


An anti-war group that belongs to the umbrella organization United for Peace and Justice (UPJ) has announced that it intends to topple the Bush administration during a March 15 Washington, D.C. protest.

In a message headlined "Storm the White House" that appears on the UPJ Web site, the group Political Cooperative is urging its members:

"TAKE THE WHITE HOUSE BY STORM, Stop Genocide, Torture and Occupation."
"We will not allow the Slave Holders that Still Prevail in this Country to Rule us any longer . . . The Administration is Criminal and if they will not step down, we must storm in, show them how many of us do not accept a criminal government."

The Political Cooperative goes so far as to announce its plans to install an interim government after the Bush administration is toppled:

"The Political Cooperative will put a new, temporary government in place that is comprised of people from Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and all the organizations that have finally made us aware of the truth of the savage practices and illegal policies of our government in assassinating our own officials as well as people throughout the world who oppose their criminal activity."

Bush-bashing filmmaker Michael Moore apparently endorses the coup plan, linking to the "Storm the White House" message on his Web site.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/2/134413.shtml?s=ic

[AnnEsthesia]

Case in point...
Robert Jensen (Professor, University of Texas)
"[Americans must pursue] the most courageous act of citizenship in the United States today: pledging to dismantle the American empire. The United States has lost the war in Iraq, and that's a good thing." The dismantling of America is the utmost expression of patriotism?
I guarantee this Prof is not a conservative.
I would wager he would describe himself as a wee bit left of center.
When I hear this stuff, and I do quite often, what I'm I supposed to think?


Well then I guess you won't care if we start using Fred Phelps and other nutso conservatives to label you. :) Just because someone is on one side of the spectrum or another does not mean everyone on that side feels that way.

After all, many conservatives want to force everyone to be christian, want only conservatives to have any freedoms, want to legislate their and only their ideals... what are non-conservatives to think, eh?

[preservanation]

Noam Chomsky
"I have been writing about terrorism for 25 years always using the official U.S. definition [of the word 'terrorist'], but that definition is un-usable, and the reason is that when you use that definition it turns out, not surprisingly,that the U.S is one of the leading terrorist states, and the other states become terrorist or non-terrorist depending on how they are relating to U.S. goals."
http://libbyquotes.blogspot.com/2006/06/noam-chomsky-mit-progagandameister.html

[Scorpion]

It is wrong for conservatives to use that bs to smear liberals... just as it would be wrong if liberals were doing it.


"Conservatroids"? Speaking of smear, that sounds to me like a smear against conservatives. But then some people consider it equitable to say someone else shouldn't do something which they then go and do themselves.

[preservanation]

AnnE,
You already informed me that you are not "a true liberal"...so none of this applies to you, nor should it get your hackles up.
This is not directed towards those who disagree with these diatribes.
I'm just pointing out it exists on the left and I see it all too often.

[AnnEsthesia]

Yes Scorpion. If I complain about you calling ALL LIBERALS un-american, I am wrong. If I call someone a conservatroid, I am wrong. You are always right (in your own head anyway). If you are just going to slam me while holding yourself up as a paragon of virtue who has to watch over me because I am a liberal and you need to protect me from myself, go ahead and just put me on ignore, because I do not appreciate your attitude or your treatment of me. This constant "do as I say and not as I do" bs you are giving me is getting really old.

[Elrathin]

In my case, I've debated my position without the needless use of invectives.


Think again.


I'm starting to think that if I looked up Un-American in the dictionary it would say "See liberal."


Not exactly a non-invective comment wouldn't you say?

[preservanation]

Mark Kurlansky
"I am sick and tired of the Founding Fathers and all their intents. The real American question of our times is how our country in a little over 200 years sank from the great hope to the most backward democracy in the West. The U.S. offers the worst healthcare program, one of the worst public school systems and the worst benefits for workers... We ought to do something. Instead, we keep worrying about the vision of a bunch of sexist, slave-owning 18th century white men in wigs and breeches."
http://libbyquotes.blogspot.com/2006/07/mark-kurlansky-propagandameister.html

[AnnEsthesia]

preserv, I am tired of your side of the aisle here using these tactics and completely derailing every thread with it. If you do not want me to point it out then talk to the people on your side of the aisle and tell them to knock the shit off. I could be a conservative and be sick of it. Oh, and since people on your side keep telling me I am a liberal and I am just not aware of what I am, then I figure I am included in their little rants, whether I am or am not what they say I am. Of course, not many liberals here fit in the neat little boxes y'all keep using, but that has never stopped most of you.[hr]Should I start posting quotes from fringe conservatives, preserv? I bet I can find just as many offensive and derisive quotes as you can.

[Elrathin]

Mark Kurlansky
"I am sick and tired of the Founding Fathers and all their intents. The real American question of our times is how our country in a little over 200 years sank from the great hope to the most backward democracy in the West. The U.S. offers the worst healthcare program, one of the worst public school systems and the worst benefits for workers... We ought to do something. Instead, we keep worrying about the vision of a bunch of sexist, slave-owning 18th century white men in wigs and breeches."
http://libbyquotes.blogspot.com/2006/07/mark-kurlansky-propagandameister.html


Pres, are you saying the founding fathers would approve of say pornography? The founding fathers wouldn't have approved of that, so are you FOR making all pornography illegal then?

What about women having the same rights as men? They didn't approve of that one so are you for making women less than men then?

The founding fathers were from a different time and if you think they would approve of the stuff we have now in America, you are sadly mistaken.

Why do people invoke the "What would the founding fathers think" speech when much of what we have in America now the founding fathers wouldn't approve of yet so many don't care what the founding fathers would think of that.

[AnnEsthesia]

Why do people invoke the "What would the founding fathers think" speech when much of what we have in America now the founding fathers wouldn't approve of yet so many don't care what the founding fathers would think of that.


Because it seems many conservatives are psychic. Not only do they know a liberal (or non-conservative) 's mind better than the owner of said mind, they also know what the founding father's would think were they around today. ;)

[preservanation]

Sen. Joe Biden (D - Delaware)
"I'm so sick and tired of the pontificating about [Democrats] not being the party of faith. The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."http://libbyquotes.blogspot.com/2005/11/sen-joe-biden-d-delaware.html

This is an example of the defensiveness I see from the left.
Me thinks he protest too much.
Rep. Nancy Pelosi
“If people are ripping your face off, you have to rip their face off... If you take the knife off the table, it’s not very frightening anymore... I pride myself in being called a liberal... Anybody who’s ever dealt with me knows not to mess with me... [The Democratic establishment in Washington] couldn’t control me, so they needed to take me down... They can’t even believe the fact that I’m going to become Speaker, but they’re getting used to it.”http://libbyquotes.blogspot.com/2006/09/rep-nancy-pelosi-house-minority-leader.html
ouch!
I think the inability of some on the left to be able to be honest with the American people and themselves leads to this sort of outburst.

[AnnEsthesia]

Defensiveness? I call it being fed up with the stupid attacks that even the conservatives have to know are beyond what is reasonable. Conservatives are not the holders of all that is good in this country, though they try to say they are.

[Elrathin]

Go F**K yourself!

-Dick Cheney

An example of hostility from Conservatives.

[preservanation]

When did I say that?

[Elrathin]

When did I say that?


You didn't say it personally, but you have applauded people such as Clay that have said it.

[preservanation]

Go F**K yourself!

-Dick Cheney

An example of hostility from Conservatives.
I love that!
Leahy had that coming.
I wish Cheney had run.[hr]Conservatives are not the holders of all that is good in this country, though they try to say they are.
We try to stand for tradition, our Consitution, smaller gov, and principle.
Often times we fall short.
I have never said what you are accusing me of.

[Deadshot]

Each side falls short, without question.

But here's my problem with the Conservatives out there. I KNOW Clinton fucked around with women. I KNOW Hillary isn't perfect and has her flaws. But SO many Conservatives find nothing wrong with Bush and his policies and continue to throw so much good will and beliefs in the American system and her people in with the bad policies and mismanagement of our current leader and those GOP leaders that wish to emulate him.

You wanna know what's "Un-American"? It's "Un-American" to not admit a mistake and move forward to correct it. It's "Un-American" not to take responsiblity for ones mistakes. Now when you compare Clintons lieing about blow jobs and not admitting a mistake and Bush's mistake with Iraq, who is more "Un-American"?

[preservanation]

I find many faults with Bush, they are just not the same faults the Libs see in him.

[I Like Beer]

I was asking myself this just the other day and I was wondering what is Un-American. So what do you guys think is Un-American?


I'm probably leaving something out, but off the top of my head I'd say the following...

One is un-American if they work actively to overthrow or subvert the state itself. The state, but not any specific leader or government.

One is also un-American, in my view, if their actions are inconsistent with the major guiding principles of the country. Those who work to subvert free speech or curb individual rights to me seem to be un-American.

[Scorpion]

This constant "do as I say and not as I do" bs you are giving me is getting really old.


Yeah, I guess holding someone to the same standard that they demand of others is just asking too much.

At any rate, I'm done wasting time with this thread.

[AnnEsthesia]

Whatever Scorpion. I have never said the things you have said. Spin all you want. Your "All liberals are un-american" sentiments are just wrong.

BTW, I do hold myself to the same standards. I have NEVER said a whole group was un-american fro simply being part of a group that i disagree with. I said that YOUR doing that was un-american. You can choose whether to continue to label others based on their disagreement with you, they cannot just change their political ideals. Deal with it.

[Phyxius]

Defensiveness? I call it being fed up with the stupid attacks that even the conservatives have to know are beyond what is reasonable. Conservatives are not the holders of all that is good in this country, though they try to say they are.


The mistake you're making here, Ann, is to argue with these idiots in the first place. The way to handle it is to pat them on the head, reassure them that they're right, and then lead them back to their seat on the porch so that they can go back to screaming at the kids to keep off their lawn... :madlaugh:

[AnnEsthesia]

I know P. I am just sick of it. Scorpion's little diatribe about how liberals need conservatives to protect them and defend them from themselves was just so unbelievably unrealistic and condescending. But you are right. I should just start handing out kittens or something to them when they are asses.

[I Like Beer]

In this case you're confusing the truth with mudslinging. Unfortunately the truth is often difficult to accept. Especially if you're a liberal. That's why one of the primary responsibilities shouldered by conservatives is looking out for the best interests of liberals.


Mike, what the hell is this shit? Why are you purposefully trying to be inflammatory? You're a smart guy. You don't need to descend to this.

Perhaps you can supply an example of when conservatives have 'looked out' for the best interests of liberals? Maybe it's when they bomb abortion clinics, or murder abortion doctors, or impose a private health care system that is the most expensive in the world, or opposed civil rights in the 1960s, or when they cut taxes and raise spending to run up such a national debt that the GAO now says will be the most pressing issue for the next president?

Is that what you mean by conservatives looking out for liberals?

[preservanation]

I have long ago resigned to the fact that the libs and elected Dems (Lieberman excluded) will be absolutely no help with our war on terror.
The Conservatives are going to have to fight both the terrorists and the American left to keep us all free and safe.
Oh, well.

[AnnEsthesia]

I have long ago resigned to the fact that the libs and elected Dems (Lieberman excluded) will be absolutely no help with our war on terror.
The Conservatives are going to have to fight both the terrorists and the American left to keep us all free and safe.
Oh, well.


All the while giving away freedoms and rights to privacy in the name of 'safety.'

[preservanation]

Which ones, AnnE?

Btw, where is the right to privacy in the Constitution?

[I Like Beer]

Right vs left debates are the cornerstone of our Democracy.

Where is the debate? All I see is I said, you said. When there is actual debate, one states an opinion backed up with facts to support it. If those facts are found to be in error, the original poster must find new evidence of admit they are wrong. When does that happen?

"We love America... and it can do no wrong. We will look away when it claims to love democracy around the world and then works hard to subvert that stated goal as it has done in Chili, Iran, etc". We will also welcome terrorists on our soil, as long as they fight on America's side, even when they have murdered Americans.

"We want to win in Iraq... and will kill every Iraqi to do it. We will imprison them without trial, torture them, and will drive up Halliburton stock by 500%".

"We support the troops... until they are injured and no longer any use to us. We will also work hard to cut their pay because that's how much we love them."

"We want energy independence... and will completely ignore the scientific communities warnings about the devastation we are doing. Oil and gas will last forever and the Earth has unlimited capability to repair herself."

"High gas prices are hurting the poor and making it impossible for them to feed their children or afford to drive to work...but we have the highest rate of poverty in the industrialized world and will not do anything to address that. We will continue to give tax cuts to the rich and veto spending bills that seek to help the poor."

I would be touchy too if I had to square all this falderall within my heart and mind as well.


I fixed your quotes.

Please do not change a members post and put them in quotes as if they said them.

[AnnEsthesia]

*chuckle* If I cared enough to debate this with you, I would. But I know that nothing anyone says will change your mind or those of the conservatives here who feel that only conservatives have morals or care about the country or can fight terrorism. So why would I bother? My time is better spent working in the other window, lol. (You know all about me and my aversion to tilting at your windmills.)

[preservanation]

Touche!
*Lunge, parry, thrust*

[underdawg]

We certainly wouldn't want a secure country even if it meant some slight inconvenience and how dare any real American preach patriotism and respect for government.

I'm starting to think that if I looked up Un-American in the dictionary it would say "See liberal."



If we as a nation claim that our soldiers fought for our freedom and sacrificed their lives in the name of such freedom, it seems quite un-American that because of fear, we would give up that hard earned freedom so easily. I don't think losing freedom is a slight inconvenience. It is one of the most important things this country stands for. After 9-11 the president allowed fear to rule the day. Fear of terrorism was the greatest threat to this nation, not the terrorists. We were not asked to sacrifice anything in this supposed war of terror except our freedoms. The president told us to continue to shop and continued to push the fear button. The land of the free and the home of the brave became a land of frightened sheep led by fear mongers and the people who questioned the motives our the fear mongers were called un-American. I think this was a shamefull time in American history.

[Red Dragon]

To be patriotic is a really simple thing; just stand against Liberty's most infamous enemy the United States government. Most people who live here aren't patriotic nowadays, and this is truly a sad thing.

[preservanation]

This is what I mean, the definition of patriotism has now been masticated into an unidentifiable mass to include the opposition and disdain of one's own nation.
Unbelievable.
Patriotism can be defined in different ways, but I don't think it includes this one...To be patriotic is a really simple thing; just stand against Liberty's most infamous enemy the United States government

[AnnEsthesia]

Well, I think the people who overthrew the British rule here and started their own government would say that overthrowing an oppressive government is pretty damned patriotic.

[ECW]

Well, I think the people who overthrew the British rule here and started their own government would say that overthrowing an oppressive government is pretty damned patriotic.


Hear, hear! You can always tell who is tightly wrapped in the flag because they scream the loudest about who is "un-American." The oppressors have the most to lose when the common people speak out and protest against the treatment they have been subjected to and when the oppressed are unappreciative the oppressors loudly proclaim they are "un-American."

[Deadshot]

"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." - Dwight D. Eisenhower

[preservanation]

When dissent from acceptable doctrine includes the active desire for Americans to surrender to it's enemies, it crosses over to subversion.
I'm sure that is not what DDE was referring to.

[AnnEsthesia]

When dissent from acceptable doctrine includes the active desire for Americans to surrender to it's enemies, it crosses over to subversion.
I'm sure that is not what DDE was referring to.


And there is where you are wrong. No one has said: Let's surrender to our enemies. That is just your own twisted interpretation.

[Deadshot]

When dissent from acceptable doctrine includes the active desire for Americans to surrender to it's enemies, it crosses over to subversion.
I'm sure that is not what DDE was referring to.


Please link the source that shows Hillary Clinton, Barrack Obama, John Edwards, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Ried, Bill Clinton, Al Gore or John Kerry willing to surrender to it's enemies.

Now I'm talking about actual surrender, like the French did to the Germans or the Japanese did to us on the USS MISSOURI.

Your statement is not just a simple twisting of words that AnnE stated. It is a Lie. You have no proof of ANYONE of the major front runners in the Democratic Party now or since the Iraq War started advocated surrender.

Now before you bring up ovatures of peacemaking, diplomacy, etc. Please look at what we're doing with North Korea and Iran right now. We are attempting diplomacy and making ovatures towards peace. Bush is doing today, with the other two members of the Axis of Evil triad, what we Liberals wanted him to do with Saddam YEARS ago.

No one wants to surrender to Osama bin Laden, Iran, North Korea or anyone else. You know that but are trying to stir the shitpot because your side had it's chance and are terribly afraid of losing power.

[PatrickHenry]

When dissent from acceptable doctrine includes the active desire for Americans to surrender to it's enemies, it crosses over to subversion.
...
Question: Who defines the enemy?

If I have already perceived that you are my enemy, the enemy of freedom, in Washington...why should I allow you to define my enemy?

[Scorpion]

I have long ago resigned to the fact that the libs and elected Dems (Lieberman excluded) will be absolutely no help with our war on terror.
The Conservatives are going to have to fight both the terrorists and the American left to keep us all free and safe.
Oh, well.


Thanks pres. Well said and exactly my point. If it weren't for conservatives this country would be an open easy target for terrorism and the war on terror would be subverted by the cut and run philosophy of the left.

[ClayBarham]

I'd say anythig unAmerican is any view that says the best we can have comes from government and that the self-interests of individuals is less important than the interests of community as defined by liberals.

[AnnEsthesia]

So basically what you are saying is that anything different than your beliefs is un-american.

[Scorpion]

To be patriotic is a really simple thing; just stand against Liberty's most infamous enemy the United States government. Most people who live here aren't patriotic nowadays, and this is truly a sad thing.


First, you're identifying treason and sedition as being patriotic? That is troubling. If you disagree with the government, change it, don't preach overthorowing it.

You claim that "most people who live here aren't patriotic nowadays."
I'd be interested in what factual information you have to back up that assertion.[hr]
I'd say anythig unAmerican is any view that says the best we can have comes from government and that the self-interests of individuals is less important than the interests of community as defined by liberals.


Clay, I think that you're describing the communist philosophy of the collective good as all important rather then the welfare of the individual.

[PatrickHenry]

First, you're identifying treason and sedition as being patriotic? That is troubling. If you disagree with the government, change it, don't preach overthorowing it.

You claim that "most people who live here aren't patriotic nowadays."
I'd be interested in what factual information you have to back up that assertion.
What's wrong with overthrowing the government? The Declaration of Independence asserts that right...
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

You don't like the DoI?

[micfranklin]

Btw, where is the right to privacy in the Constitution?

The 4th Amendment. It's an implied right if you read it carefully, but still....

[Scorpion]

First, you're identifying treason and sedition as being patriotic? That is troubling. If you disagree with the government, change it, don't preach overthorowing it.

You claim that "most people who live here aren't patriotic nowadays."
I'd be interested in what factual information you have to back up that assertion.
What's wrong with overthrowing the government? The Declaration of Independence asserts that right...
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

You don't like the DoI?


Who decides that the government is to be overthrown? What omnipotent person is given that power? And what happens after the governement is overthrown? Who decides who assumes the leadership? The Declaration of Independence is an advisory document, not a legal guideline such as the Constitution.

I'd ask you, what's wrong with changing the governemnt through an established, organized, peaceful and productive process. Free elections where everyone has the opportunity to vote.

[Wndrtch]

What is considered "Un-American?"...

How about people who turn away Boy Scouts, looking to support our troops?

How about people who vandalize US Armed Forces recruitment offices?

How about people who would block a military convoy or de-rail a train carrying supplies?

How about people who want to stick their heads in the sand, and HOPE, terrorist don't kill them?

How about people who want failure in the GWoT?

How about people calling on Congress to defund the war?

How about people planning to vote for Hillary, the Communist?

How about people who call our soldiers "murderers"?

[AnnEsthesia]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-american attitude.

[PatrickHenry]

How about idiots who wrap themselves in the flag and excuse official tyranny and murder?

How about numbnuts who think that "leftists" are on the opposing side when they are complicit in the assault on liberty?

How about polemicists who think that there is a military solution to problems that only respond to negotiation?

[Red Dragon]

This is what I mean, the definition of patriotism has now been masticated into an unidentifiable mass to include the opposition and disdain of one's own nation.
Unbelievable.
Patriotism can be defined in different ways, but I don't think it includes this one...To be patriotic is a really simple thing; just stand against Liberty's most infamous enemy the United States government
So please tell me when did the United states Government stop being a coercive monoply on the geographic area?

[Wndrtch]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression?

It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President?

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train?

It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World?

It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns?

It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities?

It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist?

It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers?

Really?

[Buck Laser]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression?
The Boy Scouts chose to ban gay and atheist kids. I don't think they should get any tax money while they do that.
It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President?

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train?

It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World?
Which terrorist?
It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns?
Who "failed" a military campaign?
It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities?
Yes it is, if there's no other way to get the administration's attention. It worked in Vietnam.
It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist?
You think Clinton, the most conservative of the democratic candidates is a [b]"known marxist?":madlaugh:
It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers?
Tell me who's been defaming, etc., them. I'll ask 'em to stop. Being against this stupid war has nothing to do with dissing soldiers, and you're smart enough to know that. If you want to argue the case, trot out some arguments, not some emotional appeals not based on facts. Then we can talk.

[Scorpion]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression?

It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President?

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train?

It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World?

It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns?

It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities?

It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist?

It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers?

Really?


Yup, you've got it. The lefts idea of patriotism reinforced by the cut and run crowd in congress.

[Wndrtch]

[quote=Wndrtch]
[quote=AnnEsthesia]
So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression?
The Boy Scouts chose to ban gay and atheist kids. I don't think they should get any tax money while they do that.And what does that have to do with violating the Boy Scouts FreeSpeech?

It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President? At least you don't think it's OK to vandalize, because you don't like the President.

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train? ...or derail a train.

It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World? Which terrorist? The ones who want to kill you and your familiy. Those terrorists.

It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns? Who "failed" a military campaign? No one...yet.

It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities? Yes it is, if there's no other way to get the administration's attention. It worked in Vietnam. WOW! So, drive the death-toll up, so you can get your way? WOW, that sucks!!

It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist?You think Clinton, the most conservative of the democratic candidates is a [b]"known marxist?":madlaugh: "the most conservative of the democratic candidates" :madlaugh: Let's just both hope she looses!:dork:

It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers? Tell me who's been defaming, etc., them. I'll ask 'em to stop. Being against this stupid war has nothing to do with dissing soldiers, and you're smart enough to know that. If you want to argue the case, trot out some arguments, not some emotional appeals not based on facts. Then we can talk. Let's see, how about Murtha or Kerry for starters. Both HAD claimed that our soldeirs were mindless murderers and cut-throats.

[AnnEsthesia]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression?

Show me where it says you have a protected freedom to place boxes inside a polling place when you have not been given permission to do so.

It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President?

Nope, but it is not treason either. It is a crime that should be handled by the justice department and law enforcement. No more, no less.

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train?

See above.

It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World?

No, but it is also not Pro-American to refuse to admit when you have been wrong and to stop the bleeding.

It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns?

Huh? So in your view, the military leaders in Vietnam and Korea were... what? Traitors? Un-American?

It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities?

No, but it is American to question why were are occupying a country that never attacked us and bleeding in ways we cannot afford to bleed.

It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist?

It is American to vote for whoever you want. I can vote for my dog and be just as American as you.

It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers?

You mean like that conservative poster-child Fred Phelps? Wanting to bring the troops home safe and alive is hardly disrespecting them.

Really?


You really are confused about what non-conservatives think, but I guess that is to be expected.

[Elrathin]

The lefts idea of patriotism reinforced by the cut and run crowd in congress.


So you are saying it is UN-AMERICAN to be against the war now?

[Phyxius]

The lefts idea of patriotism reinforced by the cut and run crowd in congress.


So you are saying it is UN-AMERICAN to be against the war now?


Hell, they've been saying that since the first questions began... :rolleyes:

[AnnEsthesia]

Here is the primer according to many of the cons here... you are unamerican unless you are a conservative republican. ;)

[Scorpion]

The lefts idea of patriotism reinforced by the cut and run crowd in congress.


So you are saying it is UN-AMERICAN to be against the war now?


That's a bit of an oversimplification El. I'd say that it's unpatriotic to want to give up and abandon Iraq when victory is achievable.

[Elrathin]

That's a bit of an oversimplification El. I'd say that it's unpatriotic to want to give up and abandon Iraq when victory is achievable.


And when is this achievement going to happen? 10 years, 50 years, 100 years? How long are you willing to pay each year towards the war? Will you be willing to have your taxes raised 10% to pay for this war? And if not does that then make you un-American?

The problem is YOU think it is achievable. Others do not. What's makes YOUR choice American and others opinions not? Is it Un-American to realize that we may be a hindrance in the war on terror in Iraq? Is it Un-American to have a different outlook of the war then you?

The only oversimplification I see here is conservatives calling those that have differing opinions Un-American.

[Scorpion]

That's a bit of an oversimplification El. I'd say that it's unpatriotic to want to give up and abandon Iraq when victory is achievable.


And when is this achievement going to happen? 10 years, 50 years, 100 years? How long are you willing to pay each year towards the war? Will you be willing to have your taxes raised 10% to pay for this war? And if not does that then make you un-American?

The problem is YOU think it is achievable. Others do not. What's makes YOUR choice American and others opinions not? Is it Un-American to realize that we may be a hindrance in the war on terror in Iraq? Is it Un-American to have a different outlook of the war then you?

The only oversimplification I see here is conservatives calling those that have differing opinions Un-American.


Who can say exactly how long it will take to achieve victory and rebuild Iraq. But we are obligated to stay the course. And yes, it will be costly. War usually is. But the end result will justify the expense. We did it in Europe and Japan post WWII and we can do it again in Iraq and Afghanistan.

My belief that victory is achievable is based on news reports from what I consider to be reliable sources. If others choose to believe otherwise, that's their business and no concern of mine. I never said that if you disagree with me that you're Un-American. What I did say was that those who espouse a cut and run philosophy regarding the war in Iraq are unpatriotic. That's my opinion. Like it or not.

Lastly, your statement that conservatives calling those who have differing opinions from theirs Un-American is delusional rubbish.

[Red Dragon]

So basically anyone who is not just like you. Now there is a positive all-American attitude.


So to you, it's "Pro-American" to take away the Boy Scouts right to Free Speech/Expression? Well since they get money from the federal government, I really don't care about them too much since they're partially leaching off the states ill gotten gains. Put them on the free market and then we will talk.


It is "Pro-American" to vandalize Federal Property, when you don't like the President? Now I'm not one to promote violence or destruction of property, but what was the Boston tea party if not vandalism? If we had that attitude during the revolution, should probably be called a succession but whatever, then we would all be singing God Save the Queen right now.

It is "Pro-American" to derail a train? Depends is the train carrying a dictator of some kind, or people being hauled away for victimless crimes? It really depends on what the train is caring.


It is "Pro-American" to let the terrorist run unchecked throughout the World? We already let the State do as it pleases, and it has used terror dozens of time to get what it wants.


It is "Pro-American" to fail military campaigns? Is it pro-American to steal people's money for a cause they don't believe in?

It is "Pro-American" for Congress to deny money and equipment to soldiers in the field, during hostilities? Of course the tax dollars have better places to be then funding a the state monoply, like in our wallets for one.

It is "Pro-American" to vote for a known Marxist? No voting is un-American as it is a violent practice.

It is "Pro-American" to defame, demoralize, and disrespect our soldiers? So should I just shut up and wave the god dam flag, just for the sake of nationalism?

Really?
Yeah really, of course I'm an Anarchist so I'm opposed to pretty much the government does, makes it hard to please me when it comes to politics really.

[Elrathin]

What I did say was that those who espouse a cut and run philosophy regarding the war in Iraq are unpatriotic. That's my opinion. Like it or not.


Un-Patriotic? So since I believe that leaving Iraq would enable the Iraqis to stand up together without us there to hinder things and enable them to kick out AQ, I am un-Patriotic according to you because of it. Nice


Lastly, your statement that conservatives calling those who have differing opinions from theirs Un-American is delusional rubbish.


As a whole you are correct, but since you used generalizations about liberals I figured you wouldn't mind a few of mine. Yes, there are conservatives that call liberals Anti-America, or terrorists supporters just for having differing opinions on how to handle Iraq.

[lily]

I was asking myself this just the other day and I was wondering what is Un-American. So what do you guys think is Un-American?


After reading 10 pages, I've given this some thought. I think it's un-American to call someone un-American just because they don't believe the same thing you do. I mean seriously, being called un-American is just name calling, so of course if someone doesn't agree with what you think being an Ameican is........they are going to be un-American. I also think it's funny we never had this discussion before the lables and slogans started coming out. You're either for us or against us. Cut and Run. Stay the course. When the Iraqi's stand up, we'll stand down. Oh.......and my personal favorite......you can't say that.......you'll embolden the enemy! It's all just a way to quiet dissent.

Well...........I guess I'll wear the label of un-American and wear it proudly........it's just another word to shut people up.........and I won't be shut up.[hr]


Thanks pres. Well said and exactly my point. If it weren't for conservatives this country would be an open easy target for terrorism and the war on terror would be subverted by the cut and run philosophy of the left.


........yet all this started under a Republican.

[hr]

That's a bit of an oversimplification El. I'd say that it's unpatriotic to want to give up and abandon Iraq when victory is achievable.


Oh I think it's achievable.........but not under this president.

[Scorpion]

........yet all this started under a Republican.




All what started under a Republican?

[ECW]

........yet all this started under a Republican.



All what started under a Republican?


The War on Terror.

Someone was on vacation and ignored the warning signs when we got whacked on 9/11. A Republican, if I recall correctly...

[lily]

All what started under a Republican?



This whole so called war on terrorism, just another excuse for the war in Iraq.

[Scorpion]

........yet all this started under a Republican.



All what started under a Republican?


The War on Terror.

Someone was on vacation and ignored the warning signs when we got whacked on 9/11. A Republican, if I recall correctly...


ECW, I didn't realize that you are Lily's spokesperson. Anyway, as I recall Clinton attacked targets in the Sudan and Afghanistan as retaliation against Bin Laden for the bombings in Africa and the bombing at the WTC in New York.

He hit an aspirin factory outside Khartoum and used cruise missiles on what was believed to be Bin Laden's location in eastern Afghanistan.

Clinton claimed the attacks were to stem terrorism. That was the beginning of the war on terror, not Iraq. And it was under a Democrat in the White House.[hr]

What I did say was that those who espouse a cut and run philosophy regarding the war in Iraq are unpatriotic. That's my opinion. Like it or not.


Un-Patriotic? So since I believe that leaving Iraq would enable the Iraqis to stand up together without us there to hinder things and enable them to kick out AQ, I am un-Patriotic according to you because of it. Nice


Lastly, your statement that conservatives calling those who have differing opinions from theirs Un-American is delusional rubbish.


As a whole you are correct, but since you used generalizations about liberals I figured you wouldn't mind a few of mine. Yes, there are conservatives that call liberals Anti-America, or terrorists supporters just for having differing opinions on how to handle Iraq.


At present the Iraqis are not capable of insuring their own security. Eventually they will be but until that time the coalition is responsible for security in Iraq. Also, Iraq's infrastructure is still a long way from providing the necessary services to its citizens. Again, the coalition is responsible for assisting the Iraqi's in the rebuilding effort. To leave now would be to abandon Iraq to a return to sectarian violence and terrorism which they would not be capable of addressing. Responsibility for the resultant carnage would be thrust upon the US. So yes, if you embrace a cut and run philosophy characteristic of the left then I say that you are unpatriotic.

As for the use of generalizations, feel free. It just makes the debate more interesting.

[hr]



All what started under a Republican?



This whole so called war on terrorism, just another excuse for the war in Iraq.


I don't think that it's a "so called war on terrorism." Terrorism is being addressed in a variety of theatres.

I do agree that invading Iraq was a mistake. Are you advocating compounding that mistake by abandoning Iraq?

[ECW]

........yet all this started under a Republican.



All what started under a Republican?


The War on Terror.

Someone was on vacation and ignored the warning signs when we got whacked on 9/11. A Republican, if I recall correctly...


ECW, I didn't realize that you are Lily's spokesperson. Anyway, as I recall Clinton attacked targets in the Sudan and Afghanistan as retaliation against Bin Laden for the bombings in Africa and the bombing at the WTC in New York.

He hit an aspirin factory outside Khartoum and used cruise missiles on what was believed to be Bin Laden's location in eastern Afghanistan.

Clinton claimed the attacks were to stem terrorism. That was the beginning of the war on terror, not Iraq. And it was under a Democrat in the White House.


Well, I'm not anyone's spokesperson but my own. Look at the times of both posts and you will see that Lily and I were composing messages to respond to you at the same time. I couldn't see what she was writing and she couldn't see what I was writing. And we said basically the same thing. Just goes to show you that great minds think alike. Furthermore, when you post something in an open forum, expect anyone to answer you. I just did.

Clinton did retaliate and did warn Bush that OBL would be his biggest threat to peace, a warning that Bush ignored because he did not want to do anything that reminded people of him following in Clinton's footsteps even to the point of acting stupid versus Clinton's intelligence. But, what Clinton did not do is begin a bogus War on Terror which was merely an elaborate excuse for going after Saddam. Bush made the declaration of war with all the pomp that went with it, not Clinton. Clinton just acted on the threats.

[Scorpion]

........yet all this started under a Republican.



All what started under a Republican?


The War on Terror.

Someone was on vacation and ignored the warning signs when we got whacked on 9/11. A Republican, if I recall correctly...


ECW, I didn't realize that you are Lily's spokesperson. Anyway, as I recall Clinton attacked targets in the Sudan and Afghanistan as retaliation against Bin Laden for the bombings in Africa and the bombing at the WTC in New York.

He hit an aspirin factory outside Khartoum and used cruise missiles on what was believed to be Bin Laden's location in eastern Afghanistan.

Clinton claimed the attacks were to stem terrorism. That was the beginning of the war on terror, not Iraq. And it was under a Democrat in the White House.


Well, I'm not anyone's spokesperson but my own. Look at the times of both posts and you will see that Lily and I were composing messages to respond to you at the same time. I couldn't see what she was writing and she couldn't see what I was writing. And we said basically the same thing. Just goes to show you that great minds think alike. Furthermore, when you post something in an open forum, expect anyone to answer you. I just did.

Clinton did retaliate and did warn Bush that OBL would be his biggest threat to peace, a warning that Bush ignored because he did not want to do anything that reminded people of him following in Clinton's footsteps even to the point of acting stupid versus Clinton's intelligence. But, what Clinton did not do is begin a bogus War on Terror which was merely an elaborate excuse for going after Saddam. Bush made the declaration of war with all the pomp that went with it, not Clinton. Clinton just acted on the threats.


Real war or bogus war? That makes no sense at all. War is war. Just ask those who fight in one. Clinton began the war on terror and Bush has carried on with it. I concede that the invasion of Iraq was unjustified but that doesn't change the chronology of the war on terror.

[Elrathin]

At present the Iraqis are not capable of insuring their own security.


Because presently we are dividing them. If we leave they can be united against AQ without the U.S. dividing them.


Also, Iraq's infrastructure is still a long way from providing the necessary services to its citizens.


And with the U.S. there we are just making it more dificult for them to stabalize.


Again, the coalition is responsible for assisting the Iraqi's in the rebuilding effort. To leave now would be to abandon Iraq to a return to sectarian violence and terrorism which they would not be capable of addressing.

That is your opinion, mine is that we hold a responsibility that if we are the problem, we should leave. We are the problem.


Responsibility for the resultant carnage would be thrust upon the US. So yes, if you embrace a cut and run philosophy characteristic of the left then I say that you are unpatriotic.

Sounds like your ego just can't stand that the U.S. may be the problem. Un-Patriotic is also choosing your ego over doing what's right. So maybe it is actually you that is Un-Patriotic then.

[moses2792796]

I'd say anythig unAmerican is any view that says the best we can have comes from government and that the self-interests of individuals is less important than the interests of community as defined by liberals.


To quote Charlie Chaplin "please please please. stop."

If you watched Blackadder you'd get it.:nana:

[Scorpion]

At present the Iraqis are not capable of insuring their own security.


Because presently we are dividing them. If we leave they can be united against AQ without the U.S. dividing them.


Also, Iraq's infrastructure is still a long way from providing the necessary services to its citizens.


And with the U.S. there we are just making it more dificult for them to stabalize.


Again, the coalition is responsible for assisting the Iraqi's in the rebuilding effort. To leave now would be to abandon Iraq to a return to sectarian violence and terrorism which they would not be capable of addressing.

That is your opinion, mine is that we hold a responsibility that if we are the problem, we should leave. We are the problem.


Responsibility for the resultant carnage would be thrust upon the US. So yes, if you embrace a cut and run philosophy characteristic of the left then I say that you are unpatriotic.

Sounds like your ego just can't stand that the U.S. may be the problem. Un-Patriotic is also choosing your ego over doing what's right. So maybe it is actually you that is Un-Patriotic then.


I don't see that the coalition is dividing the Iraqis. Indeed, the only hope for stablity in Iraq is with the presence and assistance of the coalition. I agree with you that we do hold a responsibility to the people of Iraq for their safety and assisting in rebuilding the infrastructure of Iraq. We are not the problem. An ineffective government, sectarian violence and terrorism are the problems. We are the solution. I don't understand how you can rationally extrapolate that my ego has anything to do with my opinion that the presence of the coalition is not the problem in Iraq. Lastly and again, it's my opinion that those who espouse an immediate withdrawl from Iraq are abrogating Iraq to unprecedented turmoil, exposing the US to undeserved ridicule and are therefore unpatriotic.

[Elrathin]

I don't see that the coalition is dividing the Iraqis.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Many Iraqis have sided with AQ simply because they do not like us. Take us out of the equation and they will kick AQ out.


Indeed, the only hope for stablity in Iraq is with the presence and assistance of the coalition.

The only hope for the Iraqis is for them to stand together. With soo many of them not liking us, that is a hinderance to that process.


An ineffective government, sectarian violence and terrorism are the problems. We are the solution.

If we are the solution, the problem would have been solved by now, it isn't.


I don't understand how you can rationally extrapolate that my ego has anything to do with my opinion that the presence of the coalition is not the problem in Iraq.

Simply for some the thought of the U.S. being a problem with the Iraqi process bruises their egos. They would rather see U.S. troops die than say they were wrong.


Lastly and again, it's my opinion that those who espouse an immediate withdrawl from Iraq are abrogating Iraq to unprecedented turmoil, exposing the US to undeserved ridicule and are therefore unpatriotic.


The bolded statement just proved my point about ego. Thank you.

[Scorpion]

I don't see that the coalition is dividing the Iraqis.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Many Iraqis have sided with AQ simply because they do not like us. Take us out of the equation and they will kick AQ out.


Indeed, the only hope for stablity in Iraq is with the presence and assistance of the coalition.

The only hope for the Iraqis is for them to stand together. With soo many of them not liking us, that is a hinderance to that process.


An ineffective government, sectarian violence and terrorism are the problems. We are the solution.

If we are the solution, the problem would have been solved by now, it isn't.


I don't understand how you can rationally extrapolate that my ego has anything to do with my opinion that the presence of the coalition is not the problem in Iraq.

Simply for some the thought of the U.S. being a problem with the Iraqi process bruises their egos. They would rather see U.S. troops die than say they were wrong.


Lastly and again, it's my opinion that those who espouse an immediate withdrawl from Iraq are abrogating Iraq to unprecedented turmoil, exposing the US to undeserved ridicule and are therefore unpatriotic.


The bolded statement just proved my point about ego. Thank you.


Obviously we disagree about Iraq.

I see the coaltion as the only option for insuring Iraq's security until Iraq is capable of doing so on its own. You want the US to abandon Iraq to a likely increase in sectarian violence and terrorism which Iraq is ill prepared to deal with at present.

I agree that the Iraqis need to stand united. At present they are unable to do so. Iraq is dependant on the coalition to provide security until they are capable of doing so on their own. Your comment regarding the number of Iraqis who dislike the US is at best unsupported speculation.

I've stated that the US is not the problem but the solution to Iraq's problems. You infer that if that is true then Iraq's problems should have been solved by now. The situation in Iraq is complicated and a solution can't be rushed. But reports indicate that violence is lessening in large part to the troop surge of last summer.

Lastly, you seem to feel that it is egotistical to want to avoid ridicule on the world stage by staying the course in Iraq. I see the US as the greatest country in the world and it is important to our stature and Iraq's stability and future safety that we finish the job which we started. As I've said, those who want to cut and run leaving Iraq to an uncertain fate are, in my opinion, unpatriotic. If that makes me egotistical then so be it. Better that then a defeatist liberal.

[moses2792796]

America should learn that when they meddle in foreign affairs they only make things worse, where does it stop. Sure let's stay in Iraq, but then it's always just a little longer, and we just need to invade one more country to ensure the continuing stability blah blah blah...that's dictator talk. America aren't the world police and they should lose their ego and stop pretending to be, right now they are making themselves alot of enemies and it will come back to haunt them if they're not careful.

[Scorpion]

America should learn that when they meddle in foreign affairs they only make things worse, where does it stop. Sure let's stay in Iraq, but then it's always just a little longer, and we just need to invade one more country to ensure the continuing stability blah blah blah...that's dictator talk. America aren't the world police and they should lose their ego and stop pretending to be, right now they are making themselves alot of enemies and it will come back to haunt them if they're not careful.


Thanks moses for providing a definitive example of Un-American rhetoric.

[moses2792796]

Would you like to argue against it or will you just leave it at that?

[Scorpion]

Would you like to argue against it or will you just leave it at that?


Nothing to argue about my friend. Your post is self explanatory.

[moses2792796]

So my post is anti-American? and...

[Scorpion]

So my post is anti-American? and...


...and I'm glad that you've finally recognized that your post was Anti-American.

[moses2792796]

Finally? recognised? Scorpion what are you talking about, I've been open about my stance on America since day one, I think it is a disease in desperate need of a cure. Now do you want to make a real point or what?

[Scorpion]

Finally? recognised? Scorpion what are you talking about, I've been open about my stance on America since day one, I think it is a disease in desperate need of a cure. Now do you want to make a real point or what?


I agree that America has problems. How's that for a point?

[Elrathin]

If that makes me egotistical then so be it. Better that then a defeatist liberal.


And better to be considered a "defeatist liberal" by the ignorant, than someone that would rather have soldiers die to feed their ego.

[Scorpion]

If that makes me egotistical then so be it. Better that then a defeatist liberal.


And better to be considered a "defeatist liberal" by the ignorant, than someone that would rather have soldiers die to feed their ego.


Cut and run. Don't finish the job we started and leave Iraq to its fate. Yup, that's the liberal way.

[Elrathin]

Cut and run. Don't finish the job we started and leave Iraq to its fate. Yup, that's the liberal way.


Cheer on others to die for you while you don't do anything, that's the conservative way.

[Scorpion]

Cut and run. Don't finish the job we started and leave Iraq to its fate. Yup, that's the liberal way.


Cheer on others to die for you while you don't do anything, that's the conservative way.


Cheer on those who serve and honor those who die while we stay the course. That's the conservative way. The path of the patriot.

[Phyxius]

Cut and run. Don't finish the job we started and leave Iraq to its fate. Yup, that's the liberal way.


Cheer on others to die for you while you don't do anything, that's the conservative way.


Cheer on those who serve and honor those who die while we stay the course. That's the conservative way. The path of the patriot.


Cut and run? Stay the course? Geez, not even Boy George is stupid enough to use those anymore. Catch up, Scorpion, that is sooooo 2006... :rolleyes:

[Deadshot]

My Dad smokes. He's a great person and I love him, as do my family. Now we regularly tell he that he needs to stop smoking and it's a bad, filthy habit.

Now I look at it that my family and I are trying to make my Dad a better person and we're doing this out of love for him and wanting him around longer.

But, after reading the posts of Scorpian and others I now realize that I hate my Dad. Since anything said against something he does, even if many feel that it's a bad thing, is an act of hatred and evil! I'll have to let him know that I hate him, and God knows he'll be shocked, but having just learned that to question even one thing about someone, or even a Country as diverse as the USA, is simply hating it, I feel he has the right to know...:embarrased:

[ECW]

Cut and run. Don't finish the job we started and leave Iraq to its fate. Yup, that's the liberal way.


Cheer on others to die for you while you don't do anything, that's the conservative way.


Cheer on those who serve and honor those who die while we stay the course. That's the conservative way. The path of the patriot.


Cut and run? Stay the course? Geez, not even Boy George is stupid enough to use those anymore. Catch up, Scorpion, that is sooooo 2006... :rolleyes:


"If one side is willing to accuse the other of being weak, treasonous, and fans of tyranny, it is difficult to have a decent discourse."

~David Corn

[Scorpion]

My Dad smokes. He's a great person and I love him, as do my family. Now we regularly tell he that he needs to stop smoking and it's a bad, filthy habit.

Now I look at it that my family and I are trying to make my Dad a better person and we're doing this out of love for him and wanting him around longer.

But, after reading the posts of Scorpian and others I now realize that I hate my Dad. Since anything said against something he does, even if many feel that it's a bad thing, is an act of hatred and evil! I'll have to let him know that I hate him, and God knows he'll be shocked, but having just learned that to question even one thing about someone, or even a Country as diverse as the USA, is simply hating it, I feel he has the right to know...:embarrased:

[Deadshot]

Uh...Did you want to say something, Scorp? Nothing came out but just a repeat of my post...did I miss something?

[Elrathin]

Cheer on those who serve and honor those who die while we stay the course. That's the conservative way. The path of the patriot.


You mean honor those that die, by asking more to die while those same conservatives sit on their ass in safety asking others to die for them? Yep that's the conservative way.

Patriotism is easy for conservatives when they don't have to fight.

[lily]

At present the Iraqis are not capable of insuring their own security.
Eventually they will be but until that time the coalition is responsible for
security in Iraq.

I noticed one thing in all of your posts Scorpion........you use the word
coalition like it actually means we're not the only ones fighting in Iraq,
that even Poland has forces that are fighting. America and the British are
the only countries that have put their lives on the line and Briton is
slowly pulling out, handing over the cities to the Iraqis. Makes you wonder
what they are doing right, that they are able to do this.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/2/-/bush_debate_poland.jpg

Also, Iraq's infrastructure is still a long way from providing the necessary
services to its citizens. Again, the coalition is responsible for assisting
the Iraqi's in the rebuilding effort.

It has been my stance from day one........the Iraqi's have carpenters, bridge builders, electricians and all sorts of people that are more than willing to work to rebuild their country........why are we hiring foreigners to do the work that Iraqis can do? Seems like a waste of money and not much of a investment in Iraq's future.

To leave now would be to abandon Iraq
to a return to sectarian violence and terrorism which they would not be
capable of addressing. Responsibility for the resultant carnage would be
thrust upon the US. So yes, if you embrace a cut and run philosophy
characteristic of the left then I say that you are unpatriotic.

Hmmmm.........yet Petraeus has said there will be a gradual reduction in troops in the Spring......is he un-Patriotic? You seem to think that one day the soldiers are going to be fighting and the next day poof.......no more soldiers. Nothing could be further from the turth.

I do agree that invading Iraq was a mistake. Are you advocating
compounding that mistake by abandoning Iraq?

See above. Honestly and I don't mean just you, but some Republicans in general think the sky will fall and the soldiers will all leave in one day. You see, the problem is we've tried it your way for all these years and this is where it's gotten us. Americans pitted against Americans and no progress in sight in the war in Iraq.

[moses2792796]

Finally? recognised? Scorpion what are you talking about, I've been open about my stance on America since day one, I think it is a disease in desperate need of a cure. Now do you want to make a real point or what?


I agree that America has problems. How's that for a point?


Ummm...ok, I suppose we can leave it there then.