question of authority

[Athena]

Athena Wrote:
Christians favor authority over the people, and democracy favors individuals being there own authority. This would include reading inspirational stories and expanding our consciousness, and therefore, our conscience. Our Declaration of Independence is a declaration of responsibility. We need to think about more than ourselves.


Labrooca wrote:

I am gonna go off topic to rebuttle this.

For one you say that democracy favors individuals being their own authority...but then you say we need to think for more than ourselves. Which is it? Because if I am thinking of another persons good...wouldn't I need to have some authority over that person to implement that good?

And you say we need to expand our consciousness and read inspirational stories. What if I don't want to? Would you use authority over me and force me to?

Feel free to start a thread and copy these few posts if you want to continue this.

[Athena]

The question that began the democracy of Athens was, "how do the God's resolve their differences"?Â*Â*The answer was, they argued until there was agreement on the best reasoning.Â*Â*Out of this comes the idea of a God of reason, and this is the God Cicero understood.Â*Â*

The question was reworded at the beginning of the US democracy,Â*Â*"To whom does God give his authority?"Â*Â*The answer is everyone.

Is there any knowledge of how England and Europe were different from the US?Â*Â* I feel overwelhemed by what appears to be such a lack of information, it is hard to know where to begin a discussion.Â*Â*This is a problem with education for technology, which prepares people to rely on authority, rather to be be their own authority. This is great for the rapid advancement of technology, but it is terrible for democracy and the advancement of civilization. Unless you think the Borg is the ideal civiliation.

Thinking of the good of all, does not imply authority over another.Â*This where the three social rules come in.

1. We respect everyone, because we are respectful people.
2. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others.
3. We act with integrity.

We have public lives and private lives.Â*Â*In our public lives we need to share decisions.Â*Â*In our private lives, what everyone does is up to individual.

Now when it comes to the decisions we share, yes, you have the God given responsibility of being well informed, because if your decisions are not good ones, things will not be good.Â*Â*

How about the law of karma, or the law of cause and effect?Â*Â*Is there any understanding of this?Â*Â* If we allow our well to be polluted, people in the village will die.Â*Â*It is a good idea to make agreements to keep the water clean.Â*Â*If we deplete the fish too much, we loose this source of food, and some might think that is a bad thing, so we might make agreements to protect this source of food for everyone.Â*Â*If you are only thinking of yourself, your decisions might destroy that which we all share, and that would be a bad thing, don't you think?Â*Â* Jesus isn't going to save us from our stupidity and shortÂ*Â*sightedness.Â*Â*God isn't going to send birds to feed us when we exhaust our soils and can no longer produce enough food.Â*Â*Believing our military might is so powerful we can do anything we want, might not be wise.Â*Â*Self government means taking responsibility for all these decisions and more, and we better know more about life than our own personal experience of it.Â*Â*Â*Â*

The Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacracy and torch for enlightenment which is the result of being literate.Â*Â*Knowledge, especially knowledge that makes us wise, is essential to our liberty.

No I wouldn't force you to become better informed, but I am in favor of taxing all the people, and educating all the children.Â*Â*Hopefully, with better education we can improve our condition on earth. The Lady of Justice holds scales because justice is balanced with wisdom and compassion, and we can not have justice and liberty for all, unless people are educated for this.Â*Â*Â*Â*

[Labrocca]

I think you are an idealist and I am realist. Your notions just don't seem to make sense to me. You continue to believe that the way you think is how everyone must think. I am not even sure you really answered my original question.

I don't believe in the law of Karma. imho SHIT HAPPENS is the only rule

No one can dispute that education is key though. But WHAT do you educate them about is the big question.

(btw...I don't believe this is a religious debate so I am moving it to philosophy)

[Athena]

I think you are an idealist and I am realist.Â*Â*Your notions just don't seem to make sense to me.Â*Â*You continue to believe that the way you think is how everyone must think.Â*Â*I am not even sure you really answered my original question.

I don't believe in the law of Karma.Â*Â*imho SHIT HAPPENS is the only rule

No one can dispute that education is key though.Â*Â*But WHAT do you educate them about is the big question.

(btw...I don't believe this is a religious debate so I am moving it to philosophy)


Moving this out of religion because you do not understand this understanding of God and our relationship with God, is an interesting arbitary decision.Â*Â* This is a very Christian thing for you to do, and why Christians think they are the last word in God's truth.Â*Â*Democracy is more open to explanations of God and our relationship with God, but since we no longer teach for democracy, that leaves people to believe the only understanding of God is the Christian one and you either believe in this God or you don't.Â*Â*That is very destructive to democracy.

About what we should teach?Â*Â*The number one thing to teach is the higher thinking skills that prepare us for self government and moral decision making.Â*Â* Without this, people tend to be concrete thinkers, and this does not lead to wisdom.Â*Â*A nation such as the US that is not wise, is a danger to the world.Â*Â*

Another word for karma is cause and effect.Â*Â*You don't believe in cause and effect?Â*Â*None of our science would be possible without believing there is cause and effect.Â*Â*Democracy is highly dependent on believing there is cause and effect.Â*Â*Perhaps you prefer theocracy, where God acts on whim depedning on if He is pleased or not, and the church defines reality, and people don't have to think, but can relax and just obey the authority above them?Â*Â* I am really lost here.Â*Â*There is such a huge gap between what I know of democracy and what others know, it is hard to find common grounds for discussion.Â*Â*

Have you read any of the Greek or Roman classics?Â*Â*How about the more modern philosophers who were literate in Greek and Roman classics and reawakened the interest in democracy?Â*Â*What I am saying is not solely my ideas, but the ideas in books that are essential to understanding democracy.Â*Â*

Unfortunately, there is not one book for democracy, as there is one book for Christianity.Â*Â*Imagine, what would happen if there were no bible?Â*Â*Then how would people know God and what is moral?Â*Â*Imagine what would happen to Christianity if instead of teaching out of the bible, it taught math and prepared people for a technological society with unknown values?Â*Â* This is what happened to democracy when we stopped educating for citizenship and began educating for a technological society with unknown values.Â*Â*I hold a knowledge that was known and shared, and if we do not recall this knowledge, we have fought every war for nothing.Â*Â*Now what do you think we should educate people to know?Â*Â*

I am deeply pained that these are democracy forums, but there seems to be so little knowledge of democracy, and what God, Socrates, and morality has to do with this.Â*Â*I thought if we were speaking of God and morality, that was a subject for religion?Â*Â* May be not, since it is the religious dogma of Judism, Christianity and Islam, but I do want people to know they have a choice.Â*Â*There is another way to understand God and our relationship with God and each other.Â*Â*Democracy is the ideology of these relationships, and understanding them is about being real.Â*Â*This is the study of the laws of the universe and that is very real.Â*Â*

[Labrocca]

Karma is NOT cause and effect. I understand cause and effect.

Your continuance of talking down to me and everyone that doesn't agree with you is very insulting. You are well versed on a subject...big deal. We were not debating religion...we were debating a political philosophy which you have brought religion into...not me.

I don't feel politics and religion go together very well.

It was YOU that have stated everyone here wants to debate religion...you complained about it greatly. Yet you constantly bring it up. Heck...I don't have any clue what your are saying 3/4 of the time yet you swear education is so important. You don't seem interested in educating anyone...you seem interesting in looking really smart.

You have really brought this whole topic way off. You have sort of answered my question in the original post but not really to my satisfaction. You lecture 10x more than you debate. It's rather annoying at times.

And no...I don't read the greek classics. Not my cup of tea. Maybe if I was forced to read them I would. Would you use your authority to make everyone in high school read them? That's what this topic is truely suppose to be about. Forcing others to learn and do things that would make them better people. Are you for or against that notion?

[Labrocca]

I was hoping for discussion of democracy, an ideology that began in Athens, and all I have gotten so far is religious arguements.Â*Â*I hate arguing religion with born again Christians.Â*Â*If this is all I am going to get, I will withdraw from the forums.


This is what you posted in another thread.Â*Â*Actually you posted that in the introductions forums.Â*Â*Again...not in an appropriate forums.Â*Â*WTF were you saying even then?Â*Â*I ain't even aware of any Born Again Christians on the site.

Democracy was an ideology from Athens...and it's current state is AMERICA.Â*Â*Get over it. What you were really hoping for wasn't discussion on democracy...rather you wanted people to agree with you on a DEBATE site. That's not gonna happen.

[Athena]

I was hoping for discussion of democracy, an ideology that began in Athens, and all I have gotten so far is religious arguements.Â*Â*I hate arguing religion with born again Christians.Â*Â*If this is all I am going to get, I will withdraw from the forums.


This is what you posted in another thread.Â*Â*Actually you posted that in the introductions forums.Â*Â*Again...not in an appropriate forums.Â*Â*WTF were you saying even then?Â*Â*I ain't even aware of any Born Again Christians on the site.

Democracy was an ideology from Athens...and it's current state is AMERICA.Â*Â*Get over it.Â*Â*What you were really hoping for wasn't discussion on democracy...rather you wanted people to agree with you on a DEBATE site.Â*Â*That's not gonna happen.


Want I really want is for people to understand democracy, because we have fought every war for nothing if they do not.

I am communicating with someone running for the state senate about the importance of education to democracy, and have written letters to the editor for many years, because I believe democracy is the way of God, and if we do not recall what it is all about, human suffering will increase and we will loose our liberty.

The first Thursday of next month, I will be speaking to the local Cicero Society about Cicero, and I really did want to discuss him with someone who knows about him. I don't know much about him, and if I could discuss him with others, it would help me prepare for my speech.

I have a considerablely large personal library, and love it when someone says something that motivates me to open my books and learn more. It is rather pointless to learn something when it can't be shared.

No one has to agree with me. It would be nice if there was enough knowledge of what I am saying to at least discuss things though. For example, can God make things happen just because He wants to make things happen, or are there universal laws? Do we go to heaven or hell because we have pleased or displeased a God, or is our fate the result of how we live our lives? To understand democracy is to believe in cause and effect. To be a Jew is to believe one race of human beings is special to God and being born into this race is to have a special covenant with God.

Then come the Christians who are ready to defend Israel for religious reasons. Is this equal to democracy? I think not. The present war could escalate into world war, and there will be a draft if we have a world war, and the cause of this war will be religion. Right now I think it is really important to understand God differently and not get caught up in holy wars. How do we do that?

We learn of others ways of thinking about God by reading books and discussing truth. We learn what democracy is about and then we know how to defend it with our words and actions. Nationalism and patriotism are not equal to defending democracy. Democracy recognizes no country. It is an ideology without boundries. Defending individual liberty and freedom is defending democracy. Allowing the federal government to centralize power and rule over us with bureaucratic decisions, is to loose our liberty. Am I wrong?

[Athena]

Karma is NOT cause and effect.Â*Â*I understand cause and effect.

Your continuance of talking down to me and everyone that doesn't agree with you is very insulting.Â*Â*You are well versed on a subject...big deal.Â*Â*We were not debating religion...we were debating a political philosophy which you have brought religion into...not me.

I don't feel politics and religion go together very well.

It was YOU that have stated everyone here wants to debate religion...you complained about it greatly.Â*Â*Yet you constantly bring it up.Â*Â*Heck...I don't have any clue what your are saying 3/4 of the time yet you swear education is so important.Â*Â*You don't seem interested in educating anyone...you seem interesting in looking really smart.

You have really brought this whole topic way off.Â*Â*You have sort of answered my question in the original post but not really to my satisfaction.Â*Â*You lecture 10x more than you debate.Â*Â*It's rather annoying at times.

And no...I don't read the greek classics.Â*Â*Not my cup of tea.Â*Â*Maybe if I was forced to read them I would.Â*Â*Would you use your authority to make everyone in high school read them?Â*Â*That's what this topic is truely suppose to be about.Â*Â*Forcing others to learn and do things that would make them better people.Â*Â*Are you for or against that notion?




How is karma different from cause and effect?Â*Â*

To understand Christianity you need to read the bible.Â*Â*To understand democracy, you need to read Greek and Roman classics.Â*Â*That is just the way it is.Â*Â*Of course I can't force someone to do, it is just what needs to be done to discuss democracy.Â*Â*

For example, if you read Pericle's Funernal Oration you learn privacy is important to democracy, and the enemy disrespects privacy.Â*Â*You learn generalization is important to democracy and the enemy specializes.Â*Â*Now we can discuss the Nazi, German and US democracy difference, and the change in the US that is destroying democracy.

The whole authority question is based on one's understanding of God.Â*Â*Catholics accept the authority of the church.Â*Â*Protestants have made the bible the authority on God.Â*Â*Cicero speaks of another way to understand God, the Athenian way of thinking of universal laws, that lead to a scientific way of exploring truth.Â*Â*A primary goal of democracy is to seek truth, and secondly base on our laws on this knowledge of truth.Â*Â*This is a real different understanding of God given laws.Â*Â*I don't know how to deal with this.Â*Â*We really need literacy in the classics to discuss democracy.Â*Â*Our Statue of LIberty holds a book for that literacy and a torch for enlightenment.Â*Â*I seriously regret I become your enemy for saying such things.Â*Â*

I wish it education for technology, producing products for industry and rapidly advancing military technology, that you saw as the enemy and not me. Hail Hitler

[Labrocca]

Karma has to do with good and evil (two opposing forces keeping balance). Cause and effect are just a simple reaction from an action.

Do you have a good book that's a greek classic you recommend? I read quite often.

Yer not my enemy...you just got on my nerves last night. What's with the Hail Hitler to end your post? I don't get it.

[Athena]

Democracy was an ideology from Athens...and it's current state is AMERICA. Get over it.

I have pondered what you said for a few hours. The present leader of Seria said "Democracy is a state of mind." Obviously his understanding of democracy comes from reading the classics. Around the world people know of democracy through the classics.

I said Hail Hitler, because our imitation of our enemy has gotten the same results, as when Hitler spoke of the New World Order. So many young people know so little of the rest of the world, and they believe the US to be as superior as the Germans believed Germany was when Hitler was talking of the New World Order. We are set for war.

We are told we must defend our democracy, but the leader of Seria knows more about democracy than we do. We don't know the rest of the world has learned about democracy through the classics, and it is no more exclusively American than Christianity is. The majority do not know democracy is a concept from Athens, involving an understanding of God, morality and relationships. But we are ready to defend it, by killing all the foreigners our President declares are evil. Hail Hitler.

And I assure you, I don't think I am looking smart, because everyone seems to hate me and wants to kick my ass. How successful is that?
I am totally frustrated by my failure to relate to you and others. The only way to defend democracy is with education.

What is wrong here? Why am I not getting across this concept? The only way to manifest Christianity is to use the bible and teach from it. It is the same for democracy. If we don't read about it, we can't learn it, and we can't teach what we haven't learned, and we can't manifest democracy when we know nothing about it. It is not every man out for himself, thinking of nothing but his self interest, as just about everyone seems to think. This kind of thinking destroys civilizations and will surely destroy our own.

There is so much to say, and no one can relate to what I am saying, so how can democracy be defended now? While at the same, Americans are so sure of their power and their superiority. "Hail Hitler" may not make sense to you, but I can't think of words to express the thought. Like Germany was a Christian Republic. You know republic as in respresentative form of democracy. We are what Germany was, Hail Hitler. Germany's New World Order is the real winner of the World War, because we are it and our US democracy is not known to us. This is the result of imitating German education for technology for military and industrial purpose and the German model of bureaucracy. If we don't realize what happened to our country, we have fought every war for nothing. That means present and future wars are also for nothing. We are destroy democracy at home, while we attempt to militarily dominate the world. That is the New World Order! It is what we defended our democracy against.

[Athena]

Karma is not exactly a division of good and evil.Â*Â*Not even Jews divide the world between good and evil as Christians do.Â*Â*In the US,Â*Â*Christianity is so dominat that even non Christians have a Christian understanding of reality and the world around them.Â*Â*

Socrates, one of the best known Athenians, believed in reincarnation and this concept is important to democracy.Â*Â*It means, if we deforest our land, polute our rivers, and in general strip the earth of the resources that make our lives good, we could come back to the mess we left!Â*Â*On the other hand, if we build beautiful public buildings, and care for the earth and all that is on it, and developed good relationships with our nieghbors at home and around the world, we could come back to a life that is like heaven on earth.Â*Â*Or to follow the logic of Socrates, even if we don't come back, our children and their children will have what we leave them, heaven or hell.Â*Â*He said, sooner or later we enjoy the blessings we manifest and suffer the evils we cause, even if this takes 3 generations to play out.Â*Â*

And if I didn't have grandchildren, I wouldn't be subjecting myself to people who want to kick my ass, and think I am a real jerk.Â*Â* My presince here is not about me.Â*Â*It is about their lives, and feeling overwelmed with the fear they will be drafted into the worse war in human history and there is little I can do about it.Â*Â*

We can't avoid religion, but I would like to avoid the futile arguements that Christians and athiest get into.Â*Â*

[Labrocca]

Can I ask you a question then?

What country do you think best exemplifies the Democracy you strive for?


Also you continue to bring up Christians and arguing with them. So far it's only been you and I in this thread. Are you making some assumption that I am a right-wing Christian..or a practicing Christian at all. Are you making assumptions about who you are arguing with?

And no one wants to kick your ass just because you are annoying. If anything I wish I knew what made you tick. It would amuse me to no end to find out how you got to be this way. I think your very single-minded. Almost all your posts are the same. Basiscally you say we need to educate everyone of the true nature of Democracy which was originally from Athens with Socrates as one of it's biggest supporters. You say that true democracy is about God, morality, and our relationships. After reading it dozens of times I just can't help but feel immune to it...blah blah blah.

[Athena]

Labrocca,

Before I read anything you have said, and risk getting my buttons pushed, and then saying something stupid again, I have decided I owe you an apology. I did repeatedly say I hate arguing religion, and then I changed my mind, and I wanted to hide that fact when you pointed it out. That was pretty cowardly of me.

I have decided we really need to talk about religion. But worse is, I took my irritation with Christians out of you, by talking really stupid.

I think the present warring has a lot of us on edge. Somedays I think I am really loosing it. Hell, often enough I cursed the day I learned what I have learned. Sometimes I think it would be great to know only what everyone else knows, and at least be at peace with my own kind, instead of coming from way out in left field and appearing to argue with everyone, and leaving many people feeling insulted as I harp on what they don't know. I don't know how to do any better. A writer use to clean up my work, and make it read so well. Through him, I learned a have a personality problem that is a serious communication problem. Sorry, and I really mean that! I would probably have a published book today if I could just learn to word myself better. :D Can I blame my parents for this personality problem and be excused?

[Athena]

Paraphrasing is an excellent way to satisfy a person's need to be heard and if the Israelis and US did as well as you just did, I don't think there would be the present violence.

As for which nation I think is doing best at democracy?Â*Â*Gosh, I wish I could travel the world and check that out.Â*Â*I don't think it is the US for many reasons.Â*Â*Now when I read the 1940 grade school series called "Democracy Series", I think we were doing very well.Â*Â*Old text books stress the importance of our relationships, and repeatedly say things like, it is better to be liked than rich, and if you are rich, it is best to give your wealth away.Â*Â* Many think this was Christians values, and that is sort of true, except the values didn't start with Christians, and do not depend on a Christian understanding of God.Â*Â*From many dated books, I got a feel of a very different country that really did care about family and community. Human values were put before material ones.

The change doesn't stop there!Â*Â*I have older friends who are so thankful they are retired, because they couldn't stand to work in the changed work environment.Â*Â*How to say this with the least words?

What made Germany so powerful it could challenge the world in war, was its organization and socialization.Â*Â*We have adopted both.Â*Â*Now I am sort of frozen because I have said this before, and while your paraphrasing was excellent, you ended with blah, blah, blah.Â*Â*I don't know if you want information or if you want to shut me up?Â*Â*If I thought people knew this information, or understood it when I present it, I wouldn't be motivated to talk about it.Â*Â*But I don't think others have a clue what I am talking about.Â*Â*The change in organization has everything to do with the question of authority.Â*Â*Has everything to do with bankers and doctors being afraid of violating government mandates that did not exist 40 years ago!Â*Â*This changed with relationship with our government should have everyone concerned, but instead, like the Germans, they believe this government control over our lives in a good thing!Â*Â*Yipes!Â*Â*the US is no longer a democracy, and we are failing in Iraq because our presidents doesn't understand democracy.Â*Â*It doesn't begin with voting!!!Â*Â* Before people can have a democracy, they need to resolve their major problems that lead to them killing each other for power and control.

[Athena]

Yes, I keep harping on the Christian issue. Sorry about that, but I have already said why. It is a question of authority. How can we move along a discussion of the question of authority?

How about our world war enemy was a Christian republic. You are good at paraphrasing, but do the words Christian republic mean anything to you? Germany was also very authoritarian and we had a liberal government. Today many people are into power and they are very insulting of liberals. Liberal has become a bad word. People accuse liberals of destroying our country, and don't get what this has to do with spending more on military might than the rest of the world, that spends far more on social programs.

How about contrasting Socrates with Nietzsche?

Oh, one of my favorite books is "Great Political Thinkers" by William Ebenstein. I also love The Courses by The Teaching Company, especially the audio tapes and videos about philosophy. Perhaps your library has those. I spent about a year sharing the videos with a retirement community, and I had no idea there is so much to learn. Like I am just discovering how much there is to learn, and I am not very knowledgible. You said I am trying to appear smart, but what I know is like a thimble full of water compared to the ocean. I can throw around a few names, but I am no Will Durant! Actually knowing how much I don't know makes me feel pretty humble. Just about anyone who has taken philosophy is college, knows more than I do.

[kanyon40]

Germany was not a Christian Republic. They can call themselves whatever they want, but since Hitler was a Jew, don't blame the Christians for what Germany did.

Furthermore, too much has been said on this thread that isn't worth responding to for my own purposes. I would, however, argue with Athena's assertion that Christianity is about authority over the people whereas democracy is about the individual. As a priest I think I am equipped to speak for Christianity to at least a mild degree, and if one thing is true about it, Christianity is about the value of the individual. The entire message is that Christ loved you (as in 1 person, even if he loved every one else, he loved YOU) enough to die for you. Now I am not writing this to get into a theological debate or to turn this into a Christian thread. But the fact is that the Christian worldview is that God loves the individual (as well as the corporate) enough to make the sacrifice of his own son to bring life to others. If that isn't respect and dignity in the individual, I don't know what is.

Given that, it is no coincidence (and I posted this in another thread before reading this one) that the nation that has been the strongest, most infulential, wealthiest democracy of all time was founded on the Christian value for humanity. It wasn't founded on a principle of oppressing humanity, but instead on the very dignity and rights of each person as found in the faith of the founding fathers of this great nation.

I know the response is coming, "If they were so great and charitable, why did they allow slavery?" Athens wasn't quit the democracy you suggest it was. If their democracy was so great, how come as soon as Pericles wasn't there to lead the people, because he led them not the other way around, they immediately fell into disarry, fell prey to a demagogue tyrant Cleon, and were ultimately defeated by Sparta, bringing an end to their prosperity? The only reason Pericles isn't seen as a demagogue and a tyrant was because he led the people in the right direction. But in terms of democracy by the people, numerous times the people voted to do stupid things and he superceded them because he thought he knew better. The fact that he was right is irrelevant to the fact that he ultimately took the power away from the people in order to do the right thing.

Sure America has its problems, so did Athens. But don't try to somehow make the Christian faith out to be a pawn in your political arguments. The historical facts simply don't support it. The history of this country as a democracy is owed to the Christian faith of the founders of this nation.

[Labrocca]

Great post Kaynon...someone with some good historical knowledge can now challenge you Athena.

[Athena]

Great post Kaynon...someone with some good historical knowledge can now challenge you Athena.


I was thrilled when I read this post. It would be so wonderful to discuss things with someone who is knowledgeable of history. When the Germans joined the barbarians attacking Rome, they didn't want to destroy it, but wanted to be in the seats of power. They had long served in the Roman army and envied Rome's technology. But they couldn't accept being ruled over as Rome ruled over those they conquered, and wanted to be the rulers. When Rome fell, Germany became the Holy Roman Empire, so called to separate it from Rome. Can we all agree on this point?

The Holy Roman Empire was more powerful than the base in Rome for a long time, and when the base in Rome regained its power, Germany became the seat of the Protestant Reformation Movement. Martin Luther was the best known leader of the movement, and Protestantism spread from there. Can we agree on this point?

Because Christianity is a belief of supernatural powers, a good God with an army of angels and a bad Devil with an army of demons, it holds the door open for occultism. We might disagree on this point, and than this debate should have its own thread. It could be a wonderful debate if knowledgeable people get involved.

This thread is a question of authority and that is exactly what the divid between Catholics and Protestants is all about. The Catholics claim Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven, and no one gets to heaven without going through the church, and it is the church that is the God's authority on earth.

Protestants have such paradoxical problem! The German influence, fierce independence and refusal to submit, demands God gives his authority to everyone, but from here, instead of an abstract understanding of the bible, which many Jews have, these Germans were literal thinkers, and claimed that reforming the church meant to literally intrepret the bible. This is how we came to the witch hunts, and Martin Luther thought those who carried on the witch hunts were very necessary. He also hated Jews. But twisted in this is, a belief that science will reveal God. See the problem? You can not both literally interpret the bible and accept science. To resolve the problem, it was determined science and the study of God must be separate, and this separates science from morality, and this is really problematic!

Now who has authority and how do we determine who has authority? If we intrepret the bible abstractly, we do not have the problem the religion that we have today. We aren't exactly doing witch hunts, but the thinking for witch hunts, this belief in a supernatural power of evil having control on earth, has re-emerged, and is threatening our democracy. It is the same thing that happened in Germany. Satan worshiping and other forms of occultism arise from the Christian belief in supernatural powers. It was discovery of the Greek and Roman classics and a scientific way of looking at things, that finally ended the witch hunts. I deeply regret, failure to education for democracy, has returned to the belief that a supernatural being of evil rules the earth.

[Athena]

[quote]Furthermore, too much has been said on this thread that isn't worth responding to for my own purposes.Â*Â*If you are self serving, what I speak of will not serve you. But if you seek truth, what I speak of will serve you well.


I would, however, argue with Athena's assertion that Christianity is about authority over the people whereas democracy is about the individual. As a priest I think I am equipped to speak for Christianity to at least a mild degree, and if one thing is true about it, Christianity is about the value of the individual. The entire message is that Christ loved you (as in 1 person, even if he loved every one else, he loved YOU) enough to die for you.Â*Â*The mid east is full of suicide bombers willing to die for their understanding of God and their people, and these are not the only people who have died for a God and their people. For sure Druids and Mayans also willingly died for their God and people. If giving my life would result in an reawaking of democracy and a good life for my children and their children, I would gladly give my life, what could be more glorious! Especially if everyone worshiped you from that day on. Or could concievably sacrifice my son, for the sake his children and the rest of us. I am not overwhelmingly impressed with Jesus's willingness to give his life, or a God who makes our salvation conditional on his son's death. Considering the commonness of this God/Human sacrifice idea, what makes the bible the authority such matters, the only true story? If you can to be more abstract in your thinking, we will have more agreements. A God wanting a human sacrifice and a human willing to be one, is not unique.

Given that, it is no coincidence (and I posted this in another thread before reading this one) that the nation that has been the strongest, most infulential, wealthiest democracy of all time was founded on the Christian value for humanity. It wasn't founded on a principle of oppressing humanity, but instead on the very dignity and rights of each person as found in the faith of the founding fathers of this great nation. Â* Here is where I pull away from superstition. The US became wealthy, because it of its diverse minerals, from coal to iron and oil, gold, silver, copper, nickle, rich farm lands and good supply of water and mild climate. It has consumed those resources and spent its wealth, and is now in big trouble, and no God can return the US to the mineral wealth it had. For goodness sake, many great civilizations have been born and died, and this happens with or without Christianity. It is not a supernatural event. Please, the creator created the earth without our worship, and those who get to the good spots first, get to take advantage of what they find. They can be Egyptians, Persians, Romans, worshipping many Gods, or Christians, their religious beliefs and practices don't make a God, make the land good just for them. The planet is on first come first served bases. When the gold mines, and other mineral resources are exhausted, and the fertile soil is exhausted, the people living in these regions and dependent on these resources are in trouble. When their populations outstrip their resources as in China and India, they are in big trouble. There is nothing supernatural about these riches and what happens when the resources are exhausted, and this trust in the supernatural, instead of our ability to know reality and plan ahead, is a terrible problem for all superstitious people, from Egypt to the present. The authority here must be science, not religion.

Sure America has its problems, so did Athens.Â*Â*But don't try to somehow make the Christian faith out to be a pawn in your political arguments.Â*Â*The historical facts simply don't support it.Â*Â*The history of this country as a democracy is owed to the Christian faith of the founders of this nation.Â*Â*

Ah yes, the historical facts do support it. Superstitous people who think it is a God who makes their lives good, instead of being scientific, make bad decisions about their civilization's use of resources and growth. It was not a God who made our lives good, but science and the development of medicine and technology. This was not started with religion, but began in Athens.


Your last arguement is so good, I must use it for another thread in the history forums.

[kanyon40]

Athena, you wrote way too much for me to try to answer all at once, so if I leave something out, it isn't me avoiding the issue. I will start with your final paragraph where yuou are still contending that the hsitorical record doesn't support that this nation was founded on Christianity as well as Christian morals and principles. See the thread "That for which we stand" for a full list of quotes from our founding fathers that proves that I am right.

As for the issues of science vs faith, you are still applying a false dichotmy in suggesting that Christianity and science can't go together, especially when history shows otherwise. In Athens, they talked about eithics and morality, but they did not have a world view that led to scientific study. Their world view was that the world was completely random and chaotic. If that is the case, then why would anyone even try to study it?

As I have said earlier, Galileo, Copernicus, Newton, and Pascal (who was a mathematician not a scientist) all came out of the Christian worldview. This is simple historical fact, beyond dispute, unless you decide to rewrite history. While Galileo was persecuted by the Church for supposedly posing a challenge to the faith, that doesn't change that he came from the Christian worldview nor that he in no way felt that his discoveries in any way subverted the Christian faith. It wasn't until the Enlightenment when anyone even suggested that the study of science (or philosophy, or ethics, or morality) could be totally understood without the Christian worldview. And it was later still that it was insisted that science MUST be separate from faith. Even Darwin headed to the Galopagos Islands expecting to prove God. He just happened to believe that he prove otherwise. The book "The Soul of Science" is worth your time to read in putting to rest this false idea that science and faith are at odds.

I can't nor will I attempt to justify hatred or persecution do to people's religious faith. First of all, your analogy of Islamist terrorists is irrelevant to the point because I am not, nor would I ever attempt to suggest that the Muslim worldview (which is profoundly different from the Christian worldview) is responsible for democracy, scientific advancement, or anything else. After all, the only Muslim democracies that exist were formed through the work of America (and its belief that people can exist on democracy based on the hisotric Christian worldview of the founders). So I will not address Islam. I will address Christianity, as that is where my claims lie.

Witch hunts, hatred for Jews, and whatever other persecutions happened by Christians or Christian thinkers doesn't prove that Christianity didn't ultimately lead to democracy in America, nor does it prove that science and religion can't co-exist. What it does prove is that Christians, just like everyone else, can be wrong. During the Pelloponesian War, the Athenians voted to kill every living person (including women and children) in one of the towns they conquered (Mitilene, maybe). Had it not been for Pericles, they would have. And later, when the issue came up for another town, he couldn't dissuade them. (Forgive me for not remembering the names of the cities. It has been a while since I read Thucydides and I no longer have a copy.) Does this illustrate that Athens was morally and ethically superior to Martin Luther, or than the Nazis, or than America today? Low points in human histroy have happened in EVERY civilization. And the Greeks were hardly the epitome of civilized people. Yeah, Socrates was a brilliant thinker. He also liked to have sex with 12 year old boys. Should we over look that as we consider Athens' superiority? Or is it an example of one of the mistakes they made (much like Christians such as Martin Luther made).

I do not support Luther's claims against the Jews. Yet you are wrong to suggest that the Reformation primarily took place in Germany. Every nation had their reformers. Calvin was french, for example. And while the Protestant Reformation was going on all over Europe, not just in Germany, there was also an English Reformation. Both reformations were a response to Rome. This isn't to say there is no value in the Roman Church. But just because the Roman Church says it, that doesn't make it Christian doctrine, truth, or belief. If Pope Benedict went on tv tomorrow and said Jesus never lived, it would actually mean nothing that he said it. What he says as pope doesn't determine reality. (This is in reference to Peter holding the keys to heaven, forcing people to get there through the Church. The bible doesn't say this, and it is one of the things the reformers tried to set right.) What most of the reformers did was twofold: First, they worked to get a bible in everyone's hand so they wouldn't be slaves to the intepretation of Rome. Instead they would have access to all of scripture and would be able to study and learn God's word. Then, secondly, the reformers sought to put forth more sound systematic theologies. Those such as John Calvin set themselves to reading scripture for what it said in historical context and what it meant for the people. This was opposed to the way it had been interpreted as a means to oppress the people. So while people like Martin Luther made mistakes (such as anti-Semitism), their overall purpose was to liberate the people from the hopeless oppression of the church and corrupt governments, and to return the hope and glory of the gospel message. On that account, they were wildly successful, even if it only came after many years of wars and persecution.

Furthermore, Luther's anti-Semitism (though it was wrong and can't be justified) was based on his reading of scripture that the Jews killed Jesus. (By the way, you say you aren't impressed that Jesus died for your sins. It doesn't matter if you are impressed. He still did it. And willingly allowing himself to die is in no way comparable to a Muslim suicide bomber who blows up 20 people with him.) While this isn't an excuse for Luther because his views were still repugnant, the fact is, his anti-Semitism was for a totally different reason than Nazi Germany's. There are two main villains responsible for that (other than Hitler himself, who really is the one responsible). First is the German liberal theologians of the nineteenth century (Friedrich Schliermacher, for example). They moved beyond Christianity, pushing aside the need for a transcendant God or a personal savior, and instead made the ultimate arbiter of a well lived life our own satisfied experiences. They taught that our experiences were the most important thing (this is the ugliness of modernity that ultimately led us to our current post-modernity). While Schliermacher actually taught that we should do good to one another, he removed the moral authority as to why. So even though he didn't intend for Hitler to happen, if experience is our guide, and if our happiness with our experiences is what determines if we have lived well, then why wouldn't something like Hitler eventually happen? After all, killing all the Jews made him happy. So he was pleasing God in doing it, since the German liberal theologians say that we are our own god in essence.

The second culprit is Nietsche. You quote him yourself, and you are aware that he ultimately believed that there is no reason to be unrestrained in our quest for power (or whatever else you are after for personal gain), because, ultimately, there is nothing else. He felt that our only concern should be our own concerns. Why not walk all over other people? If they are too weak to stop you, that is there problem. And in the end, you will die and there will be nothing anyway. So there is really no reason to live a moral life vs a strong, powerful, oppressive (to others) life. Again, what else does a guy like Hitler need to hear in order to wipe out all the Jews? If he is being told that he should take whatever he wants by force, and there will be no repercussions, then why shouldn't he take all of Europe (and eventually, the whole world) by force? Why not start with the Jews and work our way up? None of this came from the Christian worldview or message. It came from Modernity and Nihilism. Hitler shared more than just Nietsche's philosophy as well; they both ended up madmen who committed suicide because even when you gain everything (or when defeated, as Hitler was) there is nothing left to live for. And that worldview is one that will make you crazy.

So the worldview of 19th and 20th century Germany was never a truly Christian one (or even a liberal Christian one). It was a Modern and a Nihilistic mix. Ultimately we get theologians like Bultmann, Bart, and Bonhoeffer in the late 19th, early 20th centuries; and these guys did there best to bring Christianity back to Germany, but it was too late. And to show how far beyond Chrisitianity that Germany was, all three of these theologians were considered to be radically, controversially conservative in Germany, and are all three regarded as liberals within Christian theology.

This is enough for now because I am not sure how much of Athena's post I addressed because it was so long.

[Athena]

I will start with your final paragraph where yuou are still contending that the hsitorical record doesn't support that this nation was founded on Christianity as well as Christian morals and principles. See the thread "That for which we stand" for a full list of quotes from our founding fathers that proves that I am right.

This is not what I am saying.Â*Â*I am saying Christian morals came from a non Christian source, and predate Christianity.Â*Â*Stocism and Hellenism in general, strongly influenced Christianity.Â*Â*The God of the old testament is a tribal God, not a universial God, and this is what made Judiam so offensive.Â*Â*It was the Athenians who came to the idea that there are universal laws, a universal God.Â*Â*They had concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*That is, "in the beginning there was the word".Â*Â*This was written by John a Greek.Â*Â*

If Christians would accept the rest of humanity has a concept of God and morals, and that Christianity did not originate everything good, then there would be a lot less tension between Christians and the rest of the world.Â*Â* Repeatedly Greek and Roman classics have influenced Christianity.Â*Â*Cicero, lived before Christianity and had an Athenian concept of a God of reason, and very strongly influenced the church when his writings were rediscovered.Â*Â*Especially when it comes to the dignity of man.Â*Â*Every mention of God made by our founding fathers, is not restricted to a Christian understanding of God. They were Deist, accepting the Athenian understanding of God.

Christianity absorbed what was best and made it its own.Â*Â*So the very best of humanity comes through Christianity, but it was not the original, nor only source, of this goodness.Â*Â*And it sure was not the source of democracy which is an Athenian concept, later developed in Rome.Â*Â*All this happening before Christians began writing the bible.Â*Â*

[kanyon40]

Aside from falsely suggesting that Christianity depends on Athenian philosophers, which it doesn't, you never said anything about Christianity being some hybrid of other religions and philosophies. Instead you have just been arguing that I am wrong on the issue of the importance of the Christian worldview to our society. I think you are struggling with somehow thinking that I am equating the Christian worldview with Christianity itself. While the former comes from the latter, one can hold the basic tenets of the worldview without following the faith. For example, the Christian worldview states that creation (as in the earth and world, not speaking at this point about humanity) is good while the Greek worldview was that creation (more specifically matter) is bad. You can believe that the creation itself is good without believing in the God of Christian theism. And to continue to argue that Christians took their worldview from the Greeks is totally false, no matter how many times you make the claim. If you study the two world views, they clash on most every point.

All that said, it is historical fact that this country was founded in principles of the Christian worldview (though by reading the quotes I posted, it is clear that it was also founded on the Christian faith, a point which I haven't argued or pushed). The point being that your assertion about Christianity vs democrcacy from the initial post is simply wrong. It isn't an authority over people (CHristianity) vs. government of the people (democracy). The founders felt that democracy could not and would not, under any circumstances, flourish without the Christian principles undergirding it. While you may disagree with their assertion, I am only arguing their viewpoint, so trying to prove them wrong is outside the purpose of the discussion.

The founding fathers believed so strongly that Christian principles and morality were necessary to the success of democracy that they made the bible the common text book for all schools believing that all people MUST be raised to understand that morality and worldview. They also tossed around passing laws against any non-Christian holding political office because they felt that it was only the Christian morality that could govern one's own passions enough to keep them from becoming a tyrant. They feared that a non-Christian would lack the morality and foundational principles that are necessary (in their view) to rule in a democracy. Ultimately, their fear was that any non-Christian in office had nothing stopping them from becoming a tyrant. These are their views, not mine.

[Athena]

Aside from falsely suggesting that Christianity depends on Athenian philosophers, which it doesn't, you never said anything about Christianity being some hybrid of other religions and philosophies.Â*Â*Instead you have just been arguing that I am wrong on the issue of the importance of the Christian worldview to our society.Â*Â*I think you are struggling with somehow thinking that I am equating the Christian worldview with Christianity itself.Â*Â*While the former comes from the latter, one can hold the basic tenets of the worldview without following the faith.Â*Â*For example, the Christian worldview states that creation (as in the earth and world, not speaking at this point about humanity) is good while the Greek worldview was that creation (more specifically matter) is bad.Â*Â*You can believe that the creation itself is good without believing in the God of Christian theism.Â*Â*And to continue to argue that Christians took their worldview from the Greeks is totally false, no matter how many times you make the claim.Â*Â*If you study the two world views, they clash on most every point.

All that said, it is historical fact that this country was founded in principles of the Christian worldview (though by reading the quotes I posted, it is clear that it was also founded on the Christian faith, a point which I haven't argued or pushed).Â*Â*The point being that your assertion about Christianity vs democrcacy from the initial post is simply wrong.Â*Â*It isn't an authority over people (CHristianity) vs. government of the people (democracy).Â*Â*The founders felt that democracy could not and would not, under any circumstances, flourish without the Christian principles undergirding it.Â*Â*While you may disagree with their assertion, I am only arguing their viewpoint, so trying to prove them wrong is outside the purpose of the discussion.Â*Â*

The founding fathers believed so strongly that Christian principles and morality were necessary to the success of democracy that they made the bible the common text book for all schools believing that all people MUST be raised to understand that morality and worldview.Â*Â*They also tossed around passing laws against any non-Christian holding political office because they felt that it was only the Christian morality that could govern one's own passions enough to keep them from becoming a tyrant.Â*Â*They feared that a non-Christian would lack the morality and foundational principles that are necessary (in their view) to rule in a democracy.Â*Â*Ultimately, their fear was that any non-Christian in office had nothing stopping them from becoming a tyrant.Â*Â*These are their views, not mine.


My dear, you really need to be careful when you use words like false and liar. Christianity was strongly influenced by Hellenism and the gospel of John is very Hellenistic. It was also strongly influenced by Stoicism, especially the willingness to be martyred directly relates to Stoicism. It was this willingness to be martyred that was one of the most important componnets to the popularity of Christianity. If you want to convince anyone you know what you are talking about, explain Stoicism and Hellenism and the gospel of John, and avoid statements like "false" and "liar" which you use every time your knowledge of what others are talking is, limited. What you are doing makes you very poor follower of Christ, and fuels the building resentment of Christians. You are as arrogant and poorly behaved as a pharasee.

Just do not make the personal attacks, okay? At the very least it is bad manners to call people liars and to imply they speak falsely. There is an important difference between being mistaken and speaking falsely! Do you understand the difference? You are implying others lack morals, when it is your lack of information that is the problem. This is a very Christian thing to do, and it makes Christians very offensive! It is because so many Christians are being offensive in this way, that some are driven to put an end to Christianity. You are making enemies and if you want to gather a flock and teach your flock to attract others to your church, you will stop making enemies.

You remind me of the preachers to make their flock feel good by saying bad things about the heathens and pagans in the world, and how these people threaten them and their neighborhood, and then at the end of the sermon, remind everyone to invite to someone new to the next service. That is when I love to stand up and announce I am not Christian. Get the point? If Jesus spoke like these preachers, he would have become the leader of growing movement known today as Christianity. Always speak in away that attract others and makes them want to be like you, or your flock will be very small, self righteous and offensive people, who will help you keep your flock small.

[Athena]

Kanyou40, thank you for leading me to a link that explains our disagreement about the origins of the US democracy. I started a new thread under religion, What is tearing the US apart.

In the day of our forefathers, literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics. Christian people, literate in Greek and Roman classics manifested a democracy, but the understanding of democracy didn't come from the bible. The understanding for democracy came from Greek and Roman classics.