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BoogyMan
11-06-2007, 02:24 AM
It appears that border barriers do work after all.


Source: Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5271756.html)

http://images.chron.com/photos/2007/10/31/8593010/311xInlineGallery.jpg

Residents on both sides of one border crossing say barrier is doing what it was intended to do

PALOMAS, MEXICO — At this fabled border crossing, where the last armed conflict between the United States and Mexico flared, the rancorous debate over the new U.S. anti-immigrant fence has been resolved.

The fence works, residents north and south of it say. At least it works for now on this snippet of the line.

"You hear it all the time: Fences don't work. Fences don't work," said Mark Winder, a transplanted New Englander and part-time deputy sheriff who lives on a small ranch outside Columbus, N.M., where a 3-mile stretch of wall was completed in August. "I live 2½ miles from the border, and the fence is working."

Many merchants agree in Palomas, once a sleepy farm town, now a booming haven for smugglers.

"The fence has destroyed the economy here," said Fabiola Cuellar, a hardware-store clerk on the main street of Palomas who used to sell supplies to the throngs heading north from here. "Things are going back to the way they were before."

Of course, with only about one-fifth of the fence complete, migrants from Mexico and other countries who had planned to cross the border illegally in places such as Palomas-Columbus can simply go elsewhere.

But U.S. officials have vowed to complete nearly 400 miles of the fence by the end of next year. Workers in August and September built 70 miles of it here, in Arizona and in parts of California. Thousands more Border Patrol agents, electronic monitors and other measures will tighten the squeeze.

James Johnson's 3,000-acre family farm abuts the border west of Columbus. "Where there is a will, there's a way," said Johnson, 32, of some migrants' ability to get around, over or under any barrier.

"But anything is better than just running across the border anytime you want to," he said.

Satisfaction, shrugs

Whether good fences make good neighbors is another, perhaps more crucial, debate entirely. This new wall has sparked political controversies in the U.S., and stoked a "been-here, done-this" rancor among many Mexicans. But here, where the rampart is now part of the landscape, it tends to elicit satisfied nods from Americans and resigned shrugs from Mexicans.

"It's their territory. They can do what they want with it," said Armando Villasana, 50, the principal of a Palomas elementary school whose hardpan recess yard smacks into the new bulwark. "On the border we're accustomed to changes."

The fence, a 15-foot-high phalanx of girders tightly spaced and rooted deeply in the earth, is a jarring obstruction to the otherwise "for miles and miles" view of these parched high plains.

Rather than a solid wall, the barrier more closely resembles a vertical iron grate. It lets people on either side see across the border while preventing them from crossing it.

Its builders say the fence permits wildlife free passage. But the spaces between the posts seem tight enough to prevent even the wiliest coyote from slipping through.

The Border Patrol made about 36,000 apprehensions in New Mexico in the first 10 months of fiscal 2007, which ended Sept. 30. That's a huge drop from fiscal 2006, when nearly 74,000 illegal crossers were caught on the state's border, according to government records.

Palomas and Columbus, dusty pinpricks in the vast Chihuahuan Desert, were carved into border history nine decades ago when Pancho Villa, the Mexican revolutionary and bandit, raided the New Mexican town with about 450 troops.

The attack, repulsed by a detachment of U.S. cavalry, left 18 Americans and as many as 100 Mexican raiders dead. And it sparked the nearly yearlong expedition of 10,000 U.S. soldiers led by Gen. John. J. Pershing deep into Mexico in fruitless pursuit of Villa.

In the nine decades since, the two villages settled into an easygoing and shared obscurity. Like much of the border from El Paso to San Diego, the line here was marked by the sort of fence that might separate one field from another in farm country anywhere.

By day, by night

Families tend to have members on both sides of the border. U.S. farms like the Johnsons' relied on Mexican workers hopping the border to work by day and heading back south at night.

Migrants heading farther north would often stop by the border farms to ask for water or food for the journey. They were never turned away, Johnson said, and they would often do chores to repay the kindness.

That changed in the 1990s when tighter border enforcement — first to the east in El Paso, then to the west in Arizona — funneled the growing waves of migrants from the Mexican interior and Central America though Columbus and other parts of New Mexico.

Vehicles carrying illegal narcotics or illegal migrants would plow through the border fence across the Johnsons' land. Scores of migrants led by smugglers, called coyotes, would trek through the fields, scaring livestock and leaving trash. The smugglers would sometimes be armed.

"I understand the plight of the people," said Johnson, who speaks Spanish and whose family has been farming here since 1918. "I live with these people. If I were in their shoes, I'd be doing the same thing.

"What I don't like is the business that transporting them across the border has become," he said. "Things became dangerous."

Complaints from the Johnsons and others on the border prompted New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson to demand federal action.

A waist-high reinforced barrier designed to stop vehicles was built on the border — a stretch of it on the Johnson farm stood a few feet inside Mexico. National Guard troops camped near Columbus.

Richardson called on Mexico to bulldoze houses in Las Chepas, a largely abandoned hamlet just across the border from the Johnson's farm that has served as a staging area for smugglers.

"From a law enforcement perspective, it's curtailed a lot of our problems," said Sharon Mitamura, a deputy sheriff who patrols the border on either side of Columbus.

"You have legitimate people who are coming here," she said of the border jumpers.

"But you also have the coyotes who are bringing people across," she said, "and you have the bandidos who are stealing."

The same human crush that alarmed the Johnsons created an industry in Palomas.

Restaurants and stores sprouted. Small hotels and boarding houses went up. Buses and other vehicles transported people.

But with the good came a share of the bad.

'People are affected'

The newcomers were as much strangers here as they were in New Mexico. Crime increased. They left trash in their wake, kept people awake at night because their crossings set dogs barking. Locals who had often been able to slip north for a day of shopping or visiting family now found it harder because of the increased Border Patrol presence.

"There are families here who have family members over there, so people are affected," said Villasana, the school principal, as he watched girls play a pick-up game of soccer in the shadow of the fence. "But the fence is felt more (by people) in the interior than here."

Then Villasana told of a daydreaming young student who gazed out the window at the new wall during class last month.

Villasana asked the boy, What are you thinking about?

"They have built us a wall of shame, professor," the student answered.

'How is that?" Villasana asked.

"It's shame because people have to leave our country to find work," the boy responded.

Now it's boring

At the small museum in Columbus dedicated to Pancho Villa's raid and its aftermath, Lee Robinson regales tourists with lurid accounts of the bravery of the U.S. soldiers who repelled the Mexican attackers.

A recent transplant from Erie, Pa., Robinson is a Minuteman, one of the volunteers who flocked to the border several years ago determined to stop illegal immigration. After a stint in Arizona, Robinson followed the migrant flow east to Columbus. Now, he's contending with getting what he wished for.

"That fence, I love it," Robinson said one recent afternoon after finishing a detailed explanation of the raid for a father and son visiting from Ohio.

But Robinson quickly added that "being a Minuteman in New Mexico is getting pretty boring."

"There's no illegals here to be found," he said, wistfully.

Trish
11-06-2007, 02:40 AM
I wish they'd get the whole border fenced in a hurry. It may not be THE answer to illegal immigration, but it's better than what we've got now.

lily
11-06-2007, 02:47 AM
I'm glad something is working. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/05/border.security/index.html)

Thousands mistakenly allowed past U.S. border, report says

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Government watchdogs have found that thousands of people
who shouldn't have been admitted to the United States were mistakenly
allowed in last year because of security lapses at legal border crossings.


Customs and Border Patrol agents question a motorist at a checkpoint last
month in Campo, California.


The number of inadmissible aliens who managed to enter through official
ports of entry in 2006 was not disclosed in Monday's report from the
Government Accountability Office.

However, a source who has seen a full version of the report, in which those
statistics were included, put the total at 21,000.

The author of the GAO report, Richard Stana, said most of those who were
wrongly allowed to enter were economic migrants who did not present a
security risk.

"But as we saw in the recent past, it doesn't take too many people getting
through the ports of entry to cause some real trouble," he said. "And not
everyone who comes in and is a danger needs to be a terrorist. It could be
someone connected with a criminal enterprise."

Understaffing and turnover at Customs and Border Protection, the agency that
oversees the nation's 326 land, sea and air ports of entry, has contributed
to the problem, according to the GAO report. However, investigators also
cited weak management controls and complacency and inattentiveness by some
officers.

GAO investigators arriving at one point of entry found no border agents in
the inspection booth, while at other locations, agents didn't ask for travel
documents, according to the report.

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"Supervisors aren't demanding that the agents do their jobs and ask the
right questions and look at the right documents," Stana said. "It's because
they can't get people trained properly, and it's because staffing is short."

The Customs and Border Protection's stance is that at busy border crossings,
it has to balance security with commerce.

As a result of its own earlier investigations, Customs and Border Protection
issued new policies and procedures to tighten security at ports of entry,
but, months later, GAO inspectors found that many of the same weaknesses
persisted.

AlanC
11-06-2007, 03:20 AM
Until we establish some semlance of control over who is coming and going across our borders, any discussion of what to do with the illegals already here is a meaningless exercise.

Good to hear the fence is finally seeing some progress, it has already taken far too long.

Cobra
11-06-2007, 03:34 AM
Somehow I think if you were determined you could easily get around that fence. Stoppin peoples determination to come here is prolly the only sure fire way of stopping them from coming. What happens when you build an over priced fence and it doesn't work. That's a lot of money you can't get back.

BoogyMan
11-06-2007, 03:13 PM
Somehow I think if you were determined you could easily get around that fence. Stoppin peoples determination to come here is prolly the only sure fire way of stopping them from coming. What happens when you build an over priced fence and it doesn't work. That's a lot of money you can't get back.


We don't want to quell the desire to come here Cobra, be we certainly want to have people coming here legally. Apparently the barrier that has been put up so far IS working. What happens if we build it, and it DOES work?

Deadshot
11-06-2007, 03:32 PM
Why don't we simply punish the corporations or people who hire illegals?

A good stiff fine of 10K per illegal hired would do wonders, wouldn't it?

Cobra
11-06-2007, 03:35 PM
What happens if we build it, and it DOES work?


Than good for us. Something actually worked. I guess my problem is I can't see it working because I can think of plenty of ways to get around it just off the top of my head without to much thought.

BoogyMan
11-06-2007, 03:45 PM
What happens if we build it, and it DOES work?


Than good for us. Something actually worked. I guess my problem is I can't see it working because I can think of plenty of ways to get around it just off the top of my head without to much thought.


What you seem to be missing Cobra is that the barrier IS working, even in its current incomplete state, it is working.

Deadshot
11-06-2007, 03:49 PM
What happens if we build it, and it DOES work?


Than good for us. Something actually worked. I guess my problem is I can't see it working because I can think of plenty of ways to get around it just off the top of my head without to much thought.


Penn and Teller in one of their BullSh*T shows gave plenty of examples of how people get over, under and through a fence.

To be honest, to better my family position and, of course, my own, I've been going to school at nights for four years. Four years of summer school, night school and using vacation days to goto special classes. My wife, children and I have sacrificed so much. So if I was on the other side of a simple fence, for me, it wouldn't be much of a obstacle. Which I think speaks to your point Cobra.

BTW, why the Noose as your avatar?

BoogyMan
11-06-2007, 03:53 PM
Why don't we simply punish the corporations or people who hire illegals?

A good stiff fine of 10K per illegal hired would do wonders, wouldn't it?


Because our government actually doesn't WANT to deal with the issue. It is a nice political football that gets tossed around during elections and none of the political class is willing to do what actually needs to be done.

Even the Census Bureau wants to stop actions against illegals and those that employ them under the guise of an accurate count in 2010!

http://www.corruptionchronicles.com/2007/08/census_bureau_wants_immigratio.html[hr]

What happens if we build it, and it DOES work?


Than good for us. Something actually worked. I guess my problem is I can't see it working because I can think of plenty of ways to get around it just off the top of my head without to much thought.


Penn and Teller in one of their BullSh*T shows gave plenty of examples of how people get over, under and through a fence.

To be honest, to better my family position and, of course, my own, I've been going to school at nights for four years. Four years of summer school, night school and using vacation days to goto special classes. My wife, children and I have sacrificed so much. So if I was on the other side of a simple fence, for me, it wouldn't be much of a obstacle. Which I think speaks to your point Cobra.

BTW, why the Noose as your avatar?


Despite your assertion, those on the ground in the area claim that the fence IS working DS. Is it perfect? No. Is it performing as expected? Yes.

Deadshot
11-06-2007, 04:34 PM
My assertion is correct, someone could get over the Fence.

If it's working, great. Until you have 700 miles of it installed and patrolled and then judge it's effectiveness.

I'm simply pointing out that

1. A motivated person can get over any obstacle.
2. We, the USA, should enforce the laws on the books.
3. People will do ANYTHING to help their families.

A fence by itself is useless if we don't shut off the ability for an illegal immigrant to get a job here in the USA. A fence is part of the solution, but not the whole solution. That's GREAATT!!!:clapper: that one small section of the border is protected and illegals can't get it. But until we get the WHOLE border closed and begin to stop the illegals from getting jobs and U.S. business people exploiting their cheap labor, we will continue to have a problem.

HumanBeast
11-06-2007, 05:53 PM
I wish the U.S.A-Mexican border fence was made of highly tuned motion detection lasers (as in Mission Impossible) spaced 1 foot apart that emerge from 12 foot poles. And if the illegals try to dig under? On the U.S.American side, there would be rectangular prisms on the ground attached to the bottom of the 12 foot poles that stretch for, say, 10 feet with motion detection lasers about 1 inch above the ground. This in turn also solves the problem of the illegals vaulting over the fence. And yes, I know, where would the money for this come from?