Venezuela and Chavez

[Fushar]

Ok people. Im opening this thread to explain the REAL situation in Venezuela. I am from Venezuela, live here, but after reading some of the comments, especially the ones made by the user "December" I have no option but to open this thread to explain what is actually happening in Venezuela and who Chavez really is.

Im really tired of explaining this over and over and over and over and over and over again. I retired from these political forums all around the internet, because its useless to explain what is happening, because we will always have users like "December" who are not venezuelans, DONT live in Venezuela and dont know anything about what they say and support chavez and say lies like "Chavez is bringing democracy to Venezuela" "chavez is helping the poor" "chavez is a good man". And ONCE AGAIN I have to explain AGAIN the real situation. Its starting to piss me off, so im making this my final thread about this situation.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I remember a few months ago i made a few threads about the venezuelan situation and explained very well what this was all about. Then someone asked what I thought about the funding or the help chavez is giving to the poor people in the USA, England, and other countries. I was gonna answer that, but i said "fuck it" and left. But ill answer it now.

That is one of the things that pisses people off here in Venezuela. For example: Why are you helping you neirboughs kids when your own kids are starving and living in poor conditions?. See my point?. Do you really think the poor people in Venezuela is happy to see that chavez is sending money to other countries but DOES NOTHING to help anyone here in Venezuela?. I Tell you what, walk in the poor zones of Venezuela (los Barrios) and you will see chavez IS NOT LOVED. He does have a small percentage of people supporting him, but MOST of the poor do not like him anymore. They have realized that chavez doesnt care about them. Crime, lack of food (ill explain this below), corruption, housing problems, more dirty corruption, threats (support me and go to my meetings or ill fire you from your job), etc. I have to add that some of the people who are actually in chavez´s party HATE HIM. Oh yes, if you are a venezuelan you would know this. People who in the past used to be radical chavez supporters have turned against him. Most show their hatred towards him openly, but there are some who only do it in their houses and in family meetings and such. In other words, a good percentage of people who in public appear as chavists, in reality are not chavists and trully hate him. They just dont want to lose their jobs.

Its easy to realize that chavez wins his elections by fraud, it doesnt matter if Manuel Rosales (who has pacts with the government) admitted that he lost the election last year. People here hate Manuel Rosales too because he has sold Venezuela only to protect his own agenda. The Venezuelan people do not trust the leaders of the opposition either because they are bad too, not as bad as chavez, but they are the type of politicians that would sell their mothers to the devil just for money and to keep their privilegies. What i mean is that the REAL OPPOSITION are the students, the workers and the venezuelan people (poor and middle class, because most of the rich support chavez because he is making them richer). Its shameless how these new-rich-chavez-supporters spend millions buying expensive and luxury cars and at the same time talk about socialism and how being rich is bad. Bulls*it. The honest and hard working poor people hate how they suffer working hard in the sun, breaking their backs, just to get a misery of wage, being exploited by the new-rich chavists, while these dirty new-rich bastards do nothing and get rich in 1 day stealing the money, and show their expensive luxury cars just to show off how rich they are without working.

Hence the reason why the big majority of the poor zones (los barrios) have turned against chavez. Theres nothing wrong in buying expensive-luxury cars and being rich, as long as you actually earned that money fair. But these shameless people STEAL it. Venezuela is the most corrupt country in the western hemisphere, now more than ever. Chavez´s regime is the summay, the bodification, the final expression of all that is perverted, corrupted, evil, etc. In the 40 years before chavez, there was corruption and poverty, but these 8 (almost 9) years have left the previous 40 years in baby steps (in other words, these 8-9 years with chavez have been worst than the previous 40).

So to add humiliation and pain to the injury, now there is lack of basic food (milk, sugar, eggs, etc). People have to spend hours and hours (in large rows) in the stores waiting to get 1 box of milk (leche en polvo), not the liquid milk, but the other one (sorry my english is not 100% perfect, so i dont know the correct word). Yes you can only take 1 per person, and they mark you (some sort of a less obvious rationing list they have in cuba), to prevent you from getting more than 1. The lack of milk make the baby-children cry and the mothers get frustrated and curse chavez, this is common in Venezuela. And these are the excuses government high ranking officials, ministries (ministros, dont know the english word), you know the members of the high gabinet. These are some of the excuses they say:
-"Theres worldwide shortage".
-"Theres shortage because adults are also taking milk, and milk should only be provided for the children. It was capitalism that created that stupidity that adults should drink milk. The reality is that it should only be provided to the children".
- "The opposition is provoking the shortage by buying more milk than they should". Some of them even said: "I saw an old lady carrying 40 kilos of milk, thats why theres no milk for everyone". Wtf? how can an old lady carry 40 kilos (like 110 pounds or something) by herself. Its a lie because you are only allowed 1 kilo (almost like 3 pounds) per person, and in a real country where everything works fine, theres nothing wrong if a person buys whatever ammount of milk they want.

They are making these excuses to hide the truth.

The same is happening with eggs, sugar, etc.

2 main reasons why these shortages are happening:
-Chavez fixed the prices. I mean, the market doesnt work like that. You can put the price you want. Its quantity (how much is in the market) and demand (how much is bought) what puts the price on a product. But since chavez wants to ruin and fuck everyone up so he can be the only LORD, RICH, EMPLOYER, then its good for him. So the owners of the farms (i dont remember the correct word right now, but the ones who own the cows and produce the milk, the ones who own the chickens and produce the eggs, etc) are going bankrupt and they are selling their lands. These prices only give them losses. For example: Why would you want to invest 100 $ in a business if you only win like 20 $ because the government dictatorially decided the price of the product?.
-Chavez taking over of the productive lands and making a disaster out of them.

Another thing I have to add, is that everytime chavez makes a meeting (and rally) in Caracas, he orders that everyone should go, even people living in another states. He provides the buses to transport the people from another cities to Caracas. Why does he do that?, because HE HAS NO SUPPORT. They make lists there in Caracas, if you dont go you get fired from you job, they threat you like that. Having no job here in Venezuela is hell. Imagine, you get paid a misery for your work, imagine being unemployed. So people go to his meetings forced and threatened. The ironic thing is that HE DOESNT FILL THE AVENUE, HIGHWAY, etc COMPLETELY. Instead the opposition everytime a meeting is called fills any street, avenue, highway, etc, IN ANY CITY of Venezuela. See my point?. Chavez has lost a lot of support.

People dont want their children to belong to the state. 50% of the custody of your children belongs to the state. So i suppose in the future (a few years from now), if you want to leave Venezuela with your children you will have to ask for permission of the state, and if they state (chavez) says no (like he will) then you are f*cked up.

Chavez insults the church, and everyone who is against them.

Now in these lasts days the students have risen and protested hard against the government in many cities of the country (remember the students protests in June after RCTV was taken out?), well its starting to happen once again, this time to reject chavez new reform, which is actually a new communist constitution, similar to the cuban one (private property is not like it used to be, the armed forces are no longer in service of the people but of chavez political party, in other words, in his service and they must be anti-imperialistic. The indoctrination in schools, etc etc etc, i could go on, its a lot of b*llshit). So the students have taken the streets and the sad thing is that the international media doesnt cover it. They dont cover how 2 students were killed and some more wounded by chavists thugs 2 days ago in Maracaibo, the international media have not covered the hard confrontations that are happening in Tachira, where the students got attacked by the chavist police and the students bravely replied back injuring many of these dirty chavist criminal police, and so on so on. The media doesnt care about the truth apparently.

The media only cries about how Bush is Hitler (what a ridiculous comparation) and all that ridiculous b*llshit. But they dont show the real evil that chavez is, nor do they care. Their business is to attack the USA and how "fascist" and "evil" the USA government is, but blind their eyes to the disaster and crimes chavez is doing here in Venezuela.

Another thing that pisses people off here in Venezuela is that chavez and his communist propaganda machinery are saying only the rich are against him and the students protesting are the sons of the rich oligarchy. You cant imagine how that pisses people off, especially in the poor zones, because its them who are getting insulted. Chavez wants to make the people outside venezuela think its the rich who are against him, when in reality it is not that way. Most of the rich support him and the middle (which is dissapearing and becoming poor) and poor class do not (yes a small percentage of poor people support him because they are being manipulated by the government propaganda, but the vast majority dont).

Want to know the truth? Come to Venezuela and find out by yourself.[hr]For those who can understand spanish, I recommend you visit the following forum: http://www.noticierodigital.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

[Interrested]

I thank you for posting this topic, it's better to hear a first hand opinion on the "happenings" in Venezuela then hearing the media version. I gathered most of this on my own anyways, but it certainly helps for you to confirm my suspicions. I wasn't aware of Chavez's child custody laws, and it really just makes me resent the man even more. I will say though there was no reason for you to name December in your topic.

[preservanation]

Thank you so much Fushar for you honesty, insight and candor!
I hope all here in America who celebrate you leader will take the time to read your post.
These are all things most people here in the US already know and understand about Chavez, as well as other Dictators.
Some are apologists for these regimes and I do not quite understand why.
You, I would hope have put this debate to rest on this forum at least.
I pray for you and your good people who want to live free and share honestly in the great wealth and opportunity Venezuela should have to offer you.
I hope someday to celebrate a positive change with you and yours.

God bless and good luck, I wish I could do more.
Maybe someday, as a nation we all will. I hope so.

Thank you again, Fushar.
-preservanation

[lily]

Fushar I really enjoyed the honesty of your post. All I have to say, is you lived there and you know.......just as we live here and we know what Bush is doing and while reading your post, especially about the declining middle class, you could change the name of some of the things you said about Chavez to Bush.

[PatrickHenry]

I know that Chavez is bucking the US-based globalization, the so-called New World Order.

I also know that Venezuela has the largest supply of crude oil, larger than even Saudi Arabia when you count the "heavy crude."

I truly enjoy seeing the IMF and the World Bnk get their faces slapped by Chavez' financial policies...

If you are correct, Fushar, I assume that a revolution will occur to oust Chavez from office. We'll see...public opinion unseats national leaders when it turns largely negative.

[Fushar]

There have been countless of students protests in Venezuela this year, especially in May-June and now in November. Im gonna post some videos about them:


This video you can see the students from URBE (Here in Maracaibo, where I live) burning down the police movile module. The city police (PoliMaracaibo) belongs to the chavist mayor Giancarlo Dimartino (aka DiMardito). You have to understand the students are asking for freedom, freedom of speach and yelling "this government will fall". Ignore the music in the first minute, just watch the whole video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al7ogbgDYmY
For those who will probably say that the students are acting criminal, well let me tell you that this happened because the police instead of taking care of the real criminals and put order, they rather attack the students. So the students in URBE got pissed and fought the National Guard and chavist police and sent them back. This video is after all that when they started burning that chavist police module.

Another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXeP4cmIf4&mode=related&search

A student got shot in the chest, he died hours after that. This was in Carabobo (Valencia state). Students protesting against the end of RCTV as open TV network:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88zB3Cq7qS4
At minute 6:30 you can see a student being helped and introduced in a vehicle because he was shot. At minute 7:06 you can hear "un tiro en el pecho" which means "a shot in the chest". Criminal chavist horde attack the unarmed students.

This happened a few days ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJatZV8BTOo
The hard confrontations in Tachira and the 2 students that were killed in Maracaibo a few days ago are not spoken about in this video.

In this one the students and yelling "Freedom" "Freedom":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsqLStq5PDs

These videos are nothing really, nothing compared to the real street fighting. There are dozens of videos about the students protests against chavez in Venezuela. But most of the protests and confrontations are not recorded, remember most of them are video taped by the students themselves. The user named "December" said "it was confirmed that some of the students were from the CIA" (or something along the lines). Yeah I dare you to come to the universities in Venezuela and say that outloud, im pretty sure you will get beaten down by the students themselves for saying that stupidity.

I wonder if December will come saying those students are rich children and also from the CIA. Notice there are thousands and thousands of students there. If they were all rich Venezuela would have been the richest country in the world. I mean, its ridiculous to say they are all white-european-rich and from the CIA.

[PatrickHenry]

Are you at URBE?

Are there a lot of mestizo students in your university, Fushar?

Could you estimate the percantages for us?

And I am curious about your field of study...

[Labrocca]

Fushar I really enjoyed the honesty of your post. All I have to say, is you lived there and you know.......just as we live here and we know what Bush is doing and while reading your post, especially about the declining middle class, you could change the name of some of the things you said about Chavez to Bush.


I would like to see you prove that Lily.

[preservanation]

The comparison of Bush to Chavez or any other dictator is misguided and incredibly ignorant as to what a dictator actually is.

I believe that we enjoy the greatest amount of freedom and economic opportunity in the world.
Those who disagree with me on that are free to say so...another fact which supports my statement and belies the belief that we live in a dictatorship. How ironic.

[I Like Beer]

Hi. I enjoyed your post. You live in Venezuela and we're trying to understand better what's happening. Obviously, we can't rely on CNN to give us an accurate picture of what's going on.

You apologized for your English, but it's better than many English people I know :)

chavez IS NOT LOVED. He does have a small percentage of people supporting him, but MOST of the poor do not like him anymore.

According to this Angus-Reid poll, two thirds of Venezuelans would vote for Chavez (the poll is a year old - has it changed that fast?)
Abstract: (Angus Reid Global Scan) - Many adults in Venezuela would give their president a new term in office, according to a poll by North American Opinion Research Inc. released by EFE. 66 per cent of respondents would vote for Hugo Chávez in this year's election.
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/10961

Its easy to realize that chavez wins his elections by fraud...

The last presidential elections were monitored by:
The Carter Institute, The EU, Mercosur, and The Organization of American States.

The EU's paper on the election can be found at the link below. Why did none of these organizations find any fraud?

The high turnout, peaceful nature, and general acceptance of results of the Presidential Elections in Venezuela open the way forward to substantial improvements in the quality and public confidence in electoral process.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:qVNAcW43H-0J:www.eueomvenezuela.org/pdf/EUEOM_Venezuela_Presidential_Election_2006_Prelimi nary_Statement.pdf+venezuelan+election+EU+voter+fr aud&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

because most of the rich support chavez because he is making them richer).

You have some proof of this? If the rich support him so much, why did they try to overthrow him in the coup of April 2002?


Chavez fixed the prices. I mean, the market doesnt work like that. You can put the price you want.

No argument here. He seems to have screwed this up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599260.stm

(private property is not like it used to be...

And yet, you say, that the rich LOVE him? Do you wish to restate that? Why would they do that if he's setting prices (eating into their profits) and redefining private property?

So the students have taken the streets and the sad thing is that the international media doesnt cover it. They dont cover how 2 students were killed and some more wounded by chavists thugs 2 days ago in Maracaibo,

There is no evidence the government was involved in those deaths. Of course, it's a fair ASSUMPTION to say the gunmen were -at least- sympathetic to Chavez.

... the head of the investigative police in Zulia, Candido Carreño, said "an unidentified person that had nothing to do with the University of Zulia" opened fire against a group of students protesting the suspension of some internal elections scheduled for next week.
http://news.notiemail.com/noticia.asp?nt=11630929&cty=200


the international media have not covered the hard confrontations that are happening in Tachira, where the students got attacked by the chavist police and the students bravely replied back injuring many of these dirty chavist criminal police, and so on so on. The media doesnt care about the truth apparently.

Oh, it's being covered, not to worry.
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=70029&feedType=VideoRSS&feedName=TopNews


The media only cries about how Bush is Hitler (what a ridiculous comparation) and all that ridiculous b*llshit.

While comparisons to Hitler are obvious hyperbole.... one third, (33%) of Americans suspect their own president of assisting in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. If he's that hated by his own country... is it really that far-fetched for the rest of the world to see him in a very negative light?

One question... would you prefer to have Perez back? He's living in Miami by invitation of the US government? Or, perhaps you'd prefer Carmona? Do you like having the US select your leaders?

Oh, and for anyone interested in bias in the media and American policy towards democratically elected leaders - please see this documentary. Chavez: Inside the Coup. It's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen.[hr]
I believe that we enjoy the greatest amount of freedom and economic opportunity in the world.
Those who disagree with me on that are free to say so

Define your terms, sir. What do you mean by 'greatest amount of freedom'? How are you 'more free' than I?

How do you have greater economic opportunity than I? What about a random child living in America vs. another first world country? Who has the greater opportunity?

In 2001 the poverty rate for minors in the United States was the highest in the industrialized world, with 14.8% of all minors and 30% of African American minors living below the poverty threshold. Additionally, the standard of living for those in the bottom 10% was lower in the U.S. than in any other developed nation except the United Kingdom, which had the lowest standard of living for impoverished children.

That's some economic opportunity. But, tax cuts,low minimum wages, and private health insurance, benefit these kids, right? ;)

[lawless168]

If you are correct, Fushar, I assume that a revolution will occur to oust Chavez from office. We'll see...public opinion unseats national leaders when it turns largely negative.


LOL, what are you smoking? How are they going to start a "revolution"? people will end up dead and it won't be Chavez supporters...lol

[PatrickHenry]

If you are correct, Fushar, I assume that a revolution will occur to oust Chavez from office. We'll see...public opinion unseats national leaders when it turns largely negative.


LOL, what are you smoking? How are they going to start a "revolution"? people will end up dead and it won't be Chavez supporters...lol
How does any revolution occur? Do you think that no one died when the American colonies revolted against King George III?

You can laugh out loud all you want, bubba and call your opponents dope smokers. It doesn't change the facts that revolutions occur against tyranny.

I am thinking that Venezuela has been a defacto US Empire protectorate and Exclusive Economic Zone for long enough to make someone like Chavez extremely popular.

Or do you discount the idea of nationalism?

[Wndrtch]

If you are correct, Fushar, I assume that a revolution will occur to oust Chavez from office. We'll see...public opinion unseats national leaders when it turns largely negative.


LOL, what are you smoking? How are they going to start a "revolution"? people will end up dead and it won't be Chavez supporters...lol


Sorry lawless, I have to agree with Pat on this one. Revolutions take place, when there are enough citizens, pissed-off enough to be willing to sacrifice their lives for the future and greater good.

[Truth_and_Power]

Fushar,

I work with someone who is from venezuela and has a lot of middle class family still in venezuela, and I hear much the same from her. Members of her family have had their jobs threatened if they do not vote for Chavez. Actually she can no longer travel to venezuela because although she has not yet completed the process of becoming an american citizen, venezuela has cancelled her passport. So now she is unable to visit her family at all. I guess she's CIA too (laugh).

Patrick - you ask why the rich would support chavez if he's taking away their money, etc, etc. The issue here is that there is a "new rich" that has come to power during chavez's time. These are people who have been given important government posts and so forth that would not otherwise have qualified for. They owe their success 100% to chavez, and thus they will support him no matter what. Chavez's fight is with the old-rich, and with the poor in the manner of a disingenuous populist.

Just so we're all clear on this, I'm a left leaning likely-to-vote-democrat white american bush hater, and my information comes 2nd hand not from the news media or some kind of propaganda web site.

IMO Fushar is 100% okay calling out December by name because December has his issues which he will defend with endless b.s. links and never apologize or retract when wrong. He will still be sending you links to prove there's no flood when the water reaches the height of the electrical socket and his computer goes dark.

Fushar you will just have to do what the rest of us do and skim past the rantings of those who refuse to listen or learn. We really appreciate your posting here and I would LOVE to hear more of your viewpoint on central/south american issues.

[PatrickHenry]

That wasn't me T&P, asking about the rich...

And I am ready to hear more from Fushar.

Didn't I ask some pertinent questions?

[December]

If you are correct, Fushar, I assume that a revolution will occur to oust Chavez from office. We'll see...public opinion unseats national leaders when it turns largely negative.


LOL, what are you smoking? How are they going to start a "revolution"? people will end up dead and it won't be Chavez supporters...lol


This is what funny about Americans - country is falling apart but they worry about some dudes who live thousands of miles away and speak different language. :D

Well, I guess we discuss Chavez just because the CNN and Fox-News people have been payed well by the Halliburton people such as Dick Cheney to make Venezuela look bad....

Any news from Brazil? :D

_________________________

Berlin is Russian city
read more -
http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=8982

[Scorpion]

Thanks for again confirming that Hugo Chavez and his ruthless Bolivarian Socialist pogues are nothing more then a reincarnation of Stalin.

Next will begin the abductions, imprisonment without judicial review and disappearances reminiscent of the Soviet Union, Argentina and Chile.

[preservanation]

Dec:
This is what funny about Americans - country is falling apart but they worry about some dudes who live thousands of miles away and speak different language.I live here but I never got this memo. Just because we bicker on forms such as these doesn't mean our country is falling apart or that we are attacking each other at the mall. Your understanding of what America is, is lacking. We are stronger than ever. I have great faith in this nation and my fellow countrymen and women. When we do face a crisis we have a long history of coming together and solving it. We usually emerge a little bruised but even stronger than before.

You have got to stop watching CNN International.
Pick up the Wall Street Journal once, or better yet come on over and we'll go to "Bratfest" in Sheboygan... you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Truth_and_Power]

That wasn't me T&P, asking about the rich...

And I am ready to hear more from Fushar.

Didn't I ask some pertinent questions?


Yeah you did, i thought that question was one of yours. Just because I happened to know the answer doesn't mean I think it was a stupid question. WHOEVER said it, may they remain anonymous forever, it was a good question that alludes to information digestion.

[Interrested]

Members of her family have had their jobs threatened if they do not vote for Chavez.

That may answer many of your questions, I Like Beer.

[Fushar]

Today the protests have intensified, especially in Tachira and Merida. In Tachira the National Guard and PoliTachira have repressed the students very hard.

-40+ (maybe more, but right now 40 is confirmed) students have been arrested and beaten down. They take the students and hit them hard in their heads until they bleed. Cracking the skulls (i think its spell like that).

-20+ students wounded.

-At this time 9pm there are still confrontations in Tachira, and apparently the rest of community in that city will go to the streets to support the students.

-The leaders of the movement of students have threatened the police to burn their installations and everything else if they dont release the students that were taken prisioner and beaten down.

Tachira is in flames right now. Like i said before thats where the real confrontations are taking place, and the police theatened with arresting anyone video taping (filming) in that place. Apparetly one reporte is injured.

-Here in Maracaibo the leaders of the student movement in Zulia are planning protests this wednesday for the death of that student that was killed by chavist thugs last friday.

-Isaias Baduel (the one who saved chavez in april 13 and restored chavez in power), who used to be the right hand of chavez and former Defense minintry, made an announcement this evening against the reform (aka new communist constitution) chavez wants to implant. He is telling the people to vote against it and at the same time he is telling the members of the Armed Forces to THINK about the danger of this reform. Baduel says the new reform is dangerous for the nation and unacceptable. This is coming from a man who used to be the military with more power after he rescued chavez in april 13.[hr]For those who can understand spanish: http://www.noticierodigital.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=280789

Click play in that video.

[preservanation]

Hello, Fushar.
Thank you for posting again. We are privileged to have you here.
Very informative for us, but your situation is unfortunately very scary and dangerous for you and your proud countrymen.

Stay safe and good luck.
~preservanation

[Fushar]

To reply I like Beer:

About the private property:
The rich WHO support chavez are the ones who are IN the government or have business or contacts with them. Obviously chavez wont touch them (for now, they think). The rest of us dont have that "untouchable" privilegde.

The last presidential elections were monitored by:
The Carter Institute, The EU, Mercosur, and The Organization of American States.
-Carter is not truthworthy, at least not in our eyes.
-The OAS, the president in charge of that organization was supported by chavez. In other words, put there by chavez. You have to remember chavez is "helping" (or buying votes) of many countries here, so they voted for chavez´s candidate for the OAS. So its obvious the president of that organization wont do anything against chavez.
-I dont think it was monitored by the Mercosur. Anyways chavez wont be part of it anymore.
-EU, no idea.

Chavez has a good fraudulent system, i have explained it so many times, and its a lot and i dont feel like explaining it again. Im sorry. But let me resume it here in a few words. Chavez controls the CNE (consejo nacional electoral aka Electoral power), he can win any election he wants even if the numbers are against him.

About 2002, the rich did not took him down. You probably heard/read about this in some communist websites in the internet. Come to Venezuela and you would know it was the people who went to the streets to overthrow him. But chavez will always say it was the rich to preserve his "champion of the poor" fame. Im not saying all the rich are pro-chavez, but most are making deals with him and/or belong to the government, so they support him.

[ttriber]

What Fushar is pointing out is exactly what happend in Cuba and that is exactly why I have distaste for anybody who supports a regime like Castro's or who supports a man like El Che they are just as ignorant as those who support Chavez or Castro.

God Bless Fushar and I hope that eventually the world understands what going on their and the news stations portray it for what it really is a soon to be Dictatorship. Hopefully the US govt. can support an overthrow of this man.

[lily]

Fushar I really enjoyed the honesty of your post. All I have to say, is you lived there and you know.......just as we live here and we know what Bush is doing and while reading your post, especially about the declining middle class, you could change the name of some of the things you said about Chavez to Bush.


I would like to see you prove that Lily.



Ok........but let's do it here, so as not to take the thread off topic. (http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=9086)

[I Like Beer]

Members of her family have had their jobs threatened if they do not vote for Chavez.

That may answer many of your questions, I Like Beer.

Yes, I found it to be a very interesting post from T&P and alarming as well, especially as his post seems to confirm what Fushar is saying. Two, independent sources saying the same thing means a lot.

It's not that I'm consciously trying to defend Chavez against attacks, although I'll admit that's what it looks like I'm doing.

My questions, and what I'm seeking to understand are...

- Is Chavez that bad when compared to other leaders of Venezuela (especially Perez who murdered hundreds of people)? I think context is extremely important wouldn't you agree?

- Is the US Administration (and by extension conservative), hatred of Chavez based on the way he treats his people or on his opposition to US policy? Or both?

Any light you can shed on these questions would be most helpful.

[PatrickHenry]

Anybody in a pissant third-world country that has a lot of oil and thumbs his nose at Uncle Sam is a target for the SuitMonsters.

See Iraq...and Iran...I notice the Saudi King holds hands with King George.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/L/c/bush_abdullah_chaching.jpg

[I Like Beer]

To reply I like Beer:

About the private property:
The rich WHO support chavez are the ones who are IN the government or have business or contacts with them. Obviously chavez wont touch them (for now, they think). The rest of us dont have that "untouchable" privilegde.

Thank you, I understand.

Carter is not truthworthy, at least not in our eyes.
-The OAS, the president in charge of that organization was supported by chavez.
-I dont think it was monitored by the Mercosur. Anyways chavez wont be part of it anymore.
-EU, no idea.

Why is Jimmy Carter not trustworthy?

Well, the EU found the last presidential election fair and honest.

Here is the Mercosur representative's response in 2006.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2122

Francisco Gutierrez, is an Argentine Congressional Representative, a representative of Mercosur, and was an International Election Observer during last Sunday’s presidential elections.

"Everyone has said that it has been a clean, transparent and democratic scenario. There hasn’t been even one inconvenience anywhere, so it’s a democratic fiesta, and the people now have their destiny and their decision in their hands.

... we have spoken with the authorities as well as with the National Electoral Council (CNE), as well as the authorities of the government and also of the opposition, and everyone coincides that the process has been absolutely clean, transparent...

Does Chavez control Mercosur, too?

Chavez controls the CNE (consejo nacional electoral aka Electoral power), he can win any election he wants even if the numbers are against him.

What evidence do you have? Is this because the polling stations (with people standing in line) were allowed to remain open? Or, is there more to it?

About 2002, the rich did not took him down. You probably heard/read about this in some communist websites in the internet.

Nope. Actually, there were a team of Irish filmmakers inside when the coup happened. That's how I found out about it.

Here is an excerpt by one of the film makers. It's compelling reading.

IRISH FILMMAKER'S EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT OF VENEZUELAN COUP D'ÉTAT
Michael McCaughan speaks to Kim Bartley, who witnessed last weekend's coup attempt in Venezuela
Reprinted from Irish Times 16 April 2002
[Posted 18 April 2002]
(Thanks to Karl Sanchez for this article)
=======================================

Ms Kim Bartley and Mr Donnacha O'Brien have spent the past three months filming a documentary on Venezuelan President Mr Hugo Chavez for Power Productions, an independent film company based in Galway.

"I arrived in the centre of town just as the shooting started," says Kim. "I filmed a while then took cover in a doorway. Whoever was firing aimed directly at the crowd, which was pro-Chavez. I filmed two dead bodies, both of them beside the podium set up to rally Chavistas to defend the presidential palace.

"A woman working in the vice-president's office identified the bodies as a legal secretary and an archivist, both working inside the building. A
10-year-old girl was then taken away, fatally injured.

"More shots. We ran for cover like everyone else. We made it to the palace through back streets as the firing continued and as soon as we got in the gate another sniper started aiming at the crowd. We were all thrown to the ground behind a wall and later ran for cover into the building. Three of the snipers were arrested . . . "Chavez was about to explain what was happening in a live television broadcast but the state channel's signal was cut just as he began to speak.

"The army generals arrived and went off for a meeting with Chavez. The evening passed in a flash as we waited for news inside the presidential palace. A tearful Environmental Minister, Ms Analisa Osorio, emerged in the early hours of Friday, announcing the end of an era. 'He's under arrest,' she said. Chavez emerged, barely visible with all the bodyguards and junta soldiers jostling both to protect and arrest him.

"The atmosphere turned ugly. Radio and television immediately announced the resignation of Chavez and began broadcasting upbeat messages: 'Venezuela is finally free' was the banner across all private TV channels.

"The government went into hiding. Everyone fled for their lives. The
witch-hunt began. We decided not to go home, checking into a hotel instead, for safety . . .

"The media kept repeating footage of the swearing-in ceremony of the interim president [Pedro Carmona] which was followed by images of empty streets, everything in perfect tranquillity. We were about to book a ticket to Panama when a well-dressed passer-by told us to get off the streets. 'The Chavistas are coming' he said. It was Saturday afternoon.

"We took a taxi to the centre, where huge crowds had surrounded the palace, demanding the return of Chavez. We managed to get inside and found several Chavez deputies calling round the country to find out what was going on. A dozen people who were working for the interim government had been taken to a room in the basement for their own safety.

"Reports came in from around the country, barracks by barracks, like a
Eurovision song contest jury, that the military was rebelling against the
coup. Then came the rumours that a commando had been sent to kill Chavez at the army base where he was being kept.

"The television continued to broadcast a steady diet of soap operas, saying nothing about the huge mobilisation, which was now making a deafening racket outside. Then came the news that Chavez had been freed and was taking a helicopter to Miraflores. The crowds went wild. The presidential guard made a tunnel from the palace gates to a helicopter pad across the street. The sound of choppers buzzing overhead.

"Then he was there, striding toward the palace, mobbed by supporters. It was like a dream, it's still hard to believe it really happened."

I asked you before if you wanted Perez back? He's living in Miami? Does it bother you that a man who murdered Venezuelans is living comfortably in the US?

[Truth_and_Power]

I guess it sounds like the EU, Mercosur, OAS and others have some answering to do. Either they run a piss-poor monitoring organization whose input is close to useless against a sophisticated system of fraud, or they are complicit.

I don't see much in the way of evidence in that piece about the irish filmmakers. I guess it tells the story from an "uninformed public" point of view, but it doesn't really inform as to who was behind the coup, just how it happened and that the military saved chavez.

ILB - I'm not sure it's of particular significance to venezuelans to compare perez and Chavez, or to ascertain the reasons for the american government's position. They saw the glimmer of democracy in their country and now it is slipping away.

From our perspective, I think we can safely assume that the US gov't position on venezuela is equal parts regional hegemony preservation and PR. That really doesn't do much to change the fact the position appears to be a good one. I think you gotta let the bush hatred go on this one and give the pres. an attaboy for the right call in this case.

[I Like Beer]

I guess it sounds like the EU, Mercosur, OAS and others have some answering to do. Either they run a piss-poor monitoring organization whose input is close to useless against a sophisticated system of fraud, or they are complicit.

There is another option - there is NO fraud. Like it or not, you have to admit that's an option.

I don't see much in the way of evidence in that piece about the irish filmmakers. I guess it tells the story from an "uninformed public" point of view, but it doesn't really inform as to who was behind the coup, just how it happened and that the military saved chavez.

You have to watch the documentary to get the full impact. There's really only a couple of sentences on what I quoted above which I'll reprint here.
Chavez was about to explain what was happening in a live television broadcast but the state channel's signal was cut just as he began to speak......"The atmosphere turned ugly. Radio and television immediately announced the resignation of Chavez and began broadcasting upbeat messages: 'Venezuela is finally free' was the banner across all private TV channels.

The one PUBLIC station was taken off the air. Kind of curious that, don't you think? Why take the one public station off the air and leave all the PRIVATE stations on the air?

ILB - I'm not sure it's of particular significance to venezuelans to compare perez and Chavez, or to ascertain the reasons for the american government's position. They saw the glimmer of democracy in their country and now it is slipping away.

Is it slipping away? I quoted an Angus Reid poll yesterday that was taken in 2006 which gave Chavez the support of over 60% of people. I can post it again if you like. This isn't Venezuelan government numbers but a private polling firm. I asked Fushar if the results had changed since then and he hasn't answered.

From our perspective, I think we can safely assume that the US gov't position on venezuela is equal parts regional hegemony preservation and PR. That really doesn't do much to change the fact the position appears to be a good one. I think you gotta let the bush hatred go on this one and give the pres. an attaboy for the right call in this case.

I'm sorry but I respectfully refuse to give Bush an attaboy on this. I'll give him his attaboy on African AIDS funding. :)

[Truth_and_Power]

Have a nice trip lawless..[hr]

I guess it sounds like the EU, Mercosur, OAS and others have some answering to do. Either they run a piss-poor monitoring organization whose input is close to useless against a sophisticated system of fraud, or they are complicit.

There is another option - there is NO fraud. Like it or not, you have to admit that's an option.


I guess my venezuelan friend and fushar are both liars? Funny she doesn't seem like much of a liar, she's not very open politically so I had to make an effort to start a conversation on the matter. For my part I take the word of real people over the word of faceless international organizations with which I'm not familiar.

As for the coup, information control is standard coup protocol. Sorry but which stations were held by supporters does not rise to the level of evidence.. just cause for speculation.[hr]I did 5 minutes of research on your Angus Reid Poll, which turns out to have been done not by angus reid but by north american opinion research which doesn't come out looking very reputable. Follow the links:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/10961

Leads to

http://venezuela-usa.blogspot.com/2006/03/north-american-opinion-research.html

and

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200602151445


What say you?

[gemosological]

Fushar I really enjoyed the honesty of your post. All I have to say, is you lived there and you know.......just as we live here and we know what Bush is doing and while reading your post, especially about the declining middle class, you could change the name of some of the things you said about Chavez to Bush.


I would like to see you prove that Lily.
All you have to do is look at the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, the wave of home foreclosures in America, the burgeoning national debt due to Bush&Co's policies, the numbers of Americans that cannot afford health care or the insurance to provide it, the decreasing buying power of the dollar, etc, etc and you will have all the proof you need to confirm that what Lily is saying is indeed correct. Lily doesn't "need" to prove anything. But you may need to open your eyes and take a good look at what is right in front of you in order to be able to see it, Labrocca. But, as the "Good Book" says, there are none so deaf as those that have ears to hear that do not hear and there are none so blind as those that have eyes to see that do not see.

RRD
:rolleyes:

[I Like Beer]

I guess my venezuelan friend and fushar are both liars? For my part I take the word of real people over the word of faceless international organizations with which I'm not familiar.

Please, I never called anyone a liar, nor did I insinuate anything like that. There is nothing inconsistent between their stories and Chavez enjoying popular support. Assuming he does have 60% support, that's still millions who dislike him.

What is Bush's level of support at this time? Yet, you will find posters on this very board who think the sun shines out his butt.

Jimmy Carter is faceless? Poor Roselyn, how will she know which end to kiss? :)

As for the coup, information control is standard coup protocol. Sorry but which stations were held by supporters does not rise to the level of evidence.. just cause for speculation.

True. It's only cause for speculation. The documentary shows some pretty compelling things but I will cease describing them because without the video evidence it just comes down to my word.

I did 5 minutes of research on your Angus Reid Poll, which turns out to have been done not by angus reid but by north american opinion research which doesn't come out looking very reputable.

What say you?

I'd say that it throws the results into doubt.

However, that wasn't the only poll. Here are about a dozen others and they generally support the North American Research Poll. You know, sometimes the right likes to smear people who disagree with them. I'm sure you've seen it before. Might be the case here....

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/polling2006.htm

Here are some quotes on those polls.

Another U.S. firm, Evans/McDonough, working with the local company Varianzas in July, found that 51 percent of their 2,000-strong sample said they would vote for Chávez and 43 percent against, while six percent said they would not vote at all. The polling company thus predicted a victory for the president by 55 percent against 45 percent of the electorate.
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/marquez.php?articleid=3284

Highlights from an Associated Press-Ipsos poll conducted Nov. 10-18 among 2,500 registered voters interviewed in person at their homes across Venezuela, including 1,500 deemed likely to vote in the Dec. 3 presidential elections. Results subject to sampling error of 2 percentage points for all registered voters, 3 points for likely voters. All percentages listed are among registered voters unless otherwise noted.

VOTE PREFERENCE: Hugo Chavez enjoys a 59 percent to 27 percent lead over Manuel Rosales among likely voters, with 13 percent undecided or refusing to answer.

DIRECTION OF VENEZUELA: Six in 10 registered voters said that, in general, things in Venezuela are going in the right direction and that the country's economy is in good shape. There were significant differences by social class and education, with those in the lower social classes and education groups more likely to be optimistic about the situation.

57 percent are at least somewhat concerned that they will face reprisals for how they vote. Rosales supporters were much more likely to say that (79 percent) but almost half of Chavez supporters also expressed worry (46 percent).
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/24/america/LA_GEN_Venezuela_Poll_Glance.php

I bolded that last part because the fear of reprisals based on voter preference seems to be rather endemic and not isolated to one side or the other, though I grant it's greater for Chavez' opponents. Could be part of the culture there.

[Truth_and_Power]

Please, I never called anyone a liar, nor did I insinuate anything like that. There is nothing inconsistent between their stories and Chavez enjoying popular support. Assuming he does have 60% support, that's still millions who dislike him.


You said maybe there wasn't fraud, which was specifically what my coworker talked about. Support or not, there is very significant election fraud going on in venezuela right now. The poll you quoted later affirms this.


Jimmy Carter is faceless? Poor Roselyn, how will she know which end to kiss? :)


I had no idea president carter was monitoring the polling stations and questioning government employees about vote-pressuring himself. Silly me for thinking it was a bunch of people who are for all intents and purposes nameless, but who have a former president as their figurehead.



True. It's only cause for speculation. The documentary shows some pretty compelling things but I will cease describing them because without the video evidence it just comes down to my word.


Please, go right ahead. I'm pretty sure you're not looking to lie me into submission. It's a friendly discussion.


I did 5 minutes of research on your Angus Reid Poll, which turns out to have been done not by angus reid but by north american opinion research which doesn't come out looking very reputable.

What say you?


I'd say that it throws the results into doubt.

However, that wasn't the only poll. Here are about a dozen others and they generally support the North American Research Poll. You know, sometimes the right likes to smear people who disagree with them. I'm sure you've seen it before. Might be the case here....

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/polling2006.htm


The initial poll gives chavez another 15% from all the others. I'd say that combined with the other information makes throwing it out completely a good idea.


Another U.S. firm, Evans/McDonough, working with the local company Varianzas in July, found that 51 percent of their 2,000-strong sample said they would vote for Chávez and 43 percent against, while six percent said they would not vote at all. The polling company thus predicted a victory for the president by 55 percent against 45 percent of the electorate.
http://www.antiwar.com/ips/marquez.php?articleid=3284

Highlights from an Associated Press-Ipsos poll conducted Nov. 10-18 among 2,500 registered voters interviewed in person at their homes across Venezuela, including 1,500 deemed likely to vote in the Dec. 3 presidential elections. Results subject to sampling error of 2 percentage points for all registered voters, 3 points for likely voters. All percentages listed are among registered voters unless otherwise noted.

VOTE PREFERENCE: Hugo Chavez enjoys a 59 percent to 27 percent lead over Manuel Rosales among likely voters, with 13 percent undecided or refusing to answer.

DIRECTION OF VENEZUELA: Six in 10 registered voters said that, in general, things in Venezuela are going in the right direction and that the country's economy is in good shape. There were significant differences by social class and education, with those in the lower social classes and education groups more likely to be optimistic about the situation.

57 percent are at least somewhat concerned that they will face reprisals for how they vote. Rosales supporters were much more likely to say that (79 percent) but almost half of Chavez supporters also expressed worry (46 percent).
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/24/america/LA_GEN_Venezuela_Poll_Glance.php

I bolded that last part because the fear of reprisals based on voter preference seems to be rather endemic and not isolated to one side or the other, though I grant it's greater for Chavez' opponents. Could be part of the culture there.


Yeah. Doesn't seem to be factored into the guesses at the outcome, though. They find he has 51% support and predict a 55% outcome (adding in the last minute undecideds that go chavez). I guess they expect employment pressure to affect the vote 0%? I suppose the pollsters "Varianzas" (who are also local to venezuela) managed to make the poll-ees feel safe enough that they got the truth and not a pressurized version? With a culture like that, how are you supposed to know what's real? None of these polls with american names on them were done by the american firms, they were all outsourced to venezuelan firms.

[I Like Beer]

You said maybe there wasn't fraud, which was specifically what my coworker talked about. Support or not, there is very significant election fraud going on in venezuela right now.

This is your quote regarding your friend that I'm referring to. Where does she specifically say 'election fraud'? I didn't say she wasn't threatened, I didn't say she could go home to Venezuela.

I work with someone who is from venezuela and has a lot of middle class family still in venezuela, and I hear much the same from her. Members of her family have had their jobs threatened if they do not vote for Chavez. Actually she can no longer travel to venezuela because although she has not yet completed the process of becoming an american citizen, venezuela has cancelled her passport. So now she is unable to visit her family at all. I guess she's CIA too.

What evidence do you have of election fraud? I've posted results from four international organizations who monitored the election. They found no fraud. So, what your evidence?

I had no idea president carter was monitoring the polling stations and questioning government employees about vote-pressuring himself. Silly me for thinking it was a bunch of people who are for all intents and purposes nameless, but who have a former president as their figurehead.


This was written by Carter himself. He actually did the things you scoffed at. Does the word of a former Democratic President carry so little weight?

We were out early on election morning and were amazed at the incredibly large turnout, with thousands of people waiting in line an hour before polls were scheduled to open. Venezuela has a system of electronic voting...

During the day, the opposition leaders presented to us and their supporters what turned out to be erroneous exit polling data that showed Chavez losing the vote by 20 points or more, and they also sent this information to their own people and to foreign news media. However, the news media honored the CNE ruling against broadcasting any kind of alleged voting results domestically. In the meantime, long voter lines remained intact past the 4 p.m. closing time, past an extended 8 p.m. closing time, and until midnight, when they finally closed. A few people voted as late as 3 a.m.

At about 12:30 a.m., we and OAS leaders were invited to witness the disclosure of the first electronic tabulation, which showed "No" votes at 57 percent and "Yes" votes at 43 percent among the 6.6 million votes counted at that time (of 10.5 million expected to vote). Gaviria and I decided to invite the private media owners and opposition leaders to my hotel suite to let them know about this and to tell them that this was compatible with our own quick count results. The media owners and some of the opposition said they would accept our judgment while others were angry

You can read the whole thing here.
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc1801.html

Now, what say you?

None of these polls with american names on them were done by the american firms, they were all outsourced to venezuelan firms.


That's not true from what I can tell. I'm sure they needed local people to help carry them around, translate, and things like that. The Evans/McDonough worked WITH a local company, it didn't outsource. Who did the AP-IPSOS poll? There are 10 others to go through. They ALL outsourced? Should I check each one individually?

[Truth_and_Power]

The election fraud I am talking about is the state pressuring employees to vote chavez under threat of losing their jobs. This was mentioned by both my friend and fushar, that is my evidence. Comparing exit polls and vote tallys won't inform anyone about this. The only information I've seen in this regard is the stats you posted showing that a majority of people who are willing to come out and say they are anti-chavez fear retribution.

As for carter, ok you got me, he did visit some polling stations. But I see no mention of investigating a system of fraud that extends for more than the days immediately surrounding the election. My issue with him is that he is very caught up with the cause of anti-imperialism on behalf of the political opposition in america (a cause i support incidentally). This potentially leads him to be less skeptical than is wise.

Also, I'm waiting for Fushar to respond to the question of whether popular opinion has turned against chavez since 2004.

Here's an interesting bit about intimidation:
http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509152101

[Fushar]

This happened in Merida today. This is disgusting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8BWAsoNajc

Things more brutal than this are happening all around the country: Zulia, Tachira, Merida, Trujillo, Lara, Anzoategui, Caracas, Valencia.

Students from accross the country are suffering from these repression. The worst things were not video taped. Apparently theres another student death and another one is blind (ironically the guy who was 17 years old is the son of a National Guard member, he appeared in TV crying saying his son was in danger of ending up blind for life). Dozens of students injured.

Things like this are pissing everyone off in this country. Fuck Chavez!.

Warning: Crude pictures.

Some pictures of a student that was merciless attacked yesterday in Tachira:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8614/image331py2.jpg http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8175/img324ax2.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5449/img326js9.jpg http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8053/img329qe9.jpg

I hope everyone in the world realize what is happening here in these days. Cnn is not showing everything. The real brutal confrontations are not shown in the international media. This is ridiculous.[hr]Also, I'm waiting for Fushar to respond to the question of whether popular opinion has turned against chavez since 2004.

Yes it has.

[preservanation]

I can see why you get frustrated on these sites, Fushar. I don't blame you.
I can't explain why so many people here in America support this brutal Dictator except for that they share the same malady, "Bush Derangement Syndrome".
Other than that I can't explain it.

Thanks for continuing to post here, Fushar, it is very important that you do.
Keep your chin up.
Good luck and be safe.
~preservanation

[gemosological]

I can see why you get frustrated on these sites, Fushar. I don't blame you.
I can't explain why so many people here in America support this brutal Dictator except for that they share the same malady, "Bush Derangement Syndrome".
Other than that I can't explain it.

Thanks for continuing to post here, Fushar, it is very important that you do.
Keep your chin up.
Good luck and be safe.
~preservanation


Just finished reading this article, Preservanation:

/news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071107/ap_on_re_as/pakistan;_ylt=Aq4ZMkm_SYB86gppo5oHlNxn.3QA

"ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Police swung batons and fired tear gas at supporters of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto demonstrating near Pakistan's parliament Wednesday, deepening a political crisis triggered by the imposition of military rule."...

..."Police beat several activists, some of them women, who broke through, and dragged at least six people from the scene."...

..."Thousands of people have been rounded up and put in jail or under house arrest since Musharraf declared a state of emergency Saturday, and three days of protests by lawyers have been quickly put down with force."

Will you condemn Bush's "key" ally, Musharraf, in the War on Terror for doing the very same things in Pakistan against the Pakistani people as Chavez is doing against his own people in Venezuela? Or is it only bad when Chavez does it because he's a socialist?

How about it, Preservanation? Fushar?

RRD
:rolleyes:

[Truth_and_Power]

Ditto RRD, are your opinions of the two consistent? Two "presidents" who are kept in power by the military.

[gemosological]

Ditto RRD, are your opinions of the two consistent? Two "presidents" who are kept in power by the military.


I don't know if "consistent" is the right word. They are two different Presidents dealing with two very different situations. I do know it is very inconsistent to condemn the one but not the other for the very same types of actions. To condemn Chavez because he's a socialist and not Musharraf because he's an ally of Bush for committing the very same actions against their own people is extremely inconsistent- and "deranged"- IMO. Hell, even Bush is being more consistent on this than Preservanation or Fushar are.

RRD
:)

[Fushar]

Today Nov 7, in Caracas, the Chavists Urban Militias (Cubans according to what people are saying), ambushed a group of students that were returning to their university (UCV = Universidad Central de Venezuela) from the peaceful protest to the TSJ (Tribunal Supremo de Justicia = The Court hall of Justice or something). Apparently one student got shot in the chest and died and there are many more injured. This is outrageous.[hr]According to information, some of the chavists hid themselves inside a building and the students sorrounded it and there are gun fires confrontations from both sides, they are saying they are going to burn the building. The chavists are starting to take what they deserve.

One dead is confirmed. The one that was ambushed by chavez´s criminal urban militias. The students are not stupid though, they apparently are defending themselves.

For those who can understand spanish: http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=70014[hr]The bastards who were hiding inside the building who started the violence and the shootings were rescued by more chavists in motorcycles who entered the UCV shooting. Once again the criminals are saved and impunity reigns.[hr]More disturbs and confrontations in Merida, Anzoategui and Barinas. The chavist police confronting and violating the rights of the students. The students at the same time are defending themselves.

[gemosological]

Today Nov 7, in Caracas, the Chavists Urban Militias (Cubans according to what people are saying), ambushed a group of students that were returning to their university (UCV = Universidad Central de Venezuela) from the peaceful protest to the TSJ (Tribunal Supremo de Justicia = The Court hall of Justice or something). Apparently one student got shot in the chest and died and there are many more injured. This is outrageous.[hr]According to information, some of the chavists hid themselves inside a building and the students sorrounded it and there are gun fires confrontations from both sides, they are saying they are going to burn the building. The chavists are starting to take what they deserve.

One dead is confirmed. The one that was ambushed by chavez´s criminal urban militias. The students are not stupid though, they apparently are defending themselves.

For those who can understand spanish: http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=70014[hr]The bastards who were hiding inside the building who started the violence and the shootings were rescued by more chavists in motorcycles who entered the UCV shooting. Once again the criminals are saved and impunity reigns.[hr]More disturbs and confrontations in Merida, Anzoategui and Barinas. The chavist police confronting and violating the rights of the students. The students at the same time are defending themselves.


Who opened fire first- the chauvists or the students who stand against them? Also, since I don't speak Spanish are there any links you can provide that are in English? Surely there must be some English-speaking news outlets in Venezuela.

Thanks.

RRD
:)

[Fushar]

New information from the hospital says there are no deads, but 6 wounded from gunfire.

This picture shows a chavist thug armed with a gun. This is the kind of scum that is killing and wounding our people and our students:

http://doc.noticias24.com/0711/ucv07c.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7394/f5f8c51tmpmu8.jpg

To answer redsrdead: The chavists thugs started it all.

[gemosological]

New information from the hospital says there are no deads, but 6 wounded from gunfire.

This picture shows a chavist thug armed with a gun. This is the kind of scum that is killing and wounding our people and our students:

http://doc.noticias24.com/0711/ucv07c.jpg

[hr]The chavists thugs started it all.


I see an image of a man pointing a gun while two others are attempting to shut the door. But that doesn't tell me, nor prove, who fired the first shots. And how about those English speaking news outlets? Of course I suppose I could invite my neighbors over to translate for me- they do speak Spanish. I do live in Nuevo Mexico after all.

RRD
:)[hr]Btw, Fushar- does the red poster on the left of the door read ""Yes, with (or for) Chavez"?

Just curious.

RRD
:-)

[Fushar]

Redsrdead, if the president of Pakistan is doing the same thing that Chavez is doing, then i condemn him too.

Btw its 9 wounded, and videos and pictures will be posted when they get released on the web.[hr]The red poster says "Yes with chavez" (pro chavez poster). That doesnt mean anything. There are also posters against chavez. Posters dont say much.

Its all over the news everywhere, even in CNN en español. Its more than confirmed that it was a chavist thug.

Videos will be posted when they get put on the net.

[gemosological]

Redsrdead, if the president of Pakistan is doing the same thing that Chavez is doing, then i condemn him too.

Btw its 9 wounded, and videos and pictures will be posted when they get released on the web.[hr]The red poster says "Yes with chavez" (pro chavez poster). That doesnt mean anything.

Its all over the news everywhere, even in CNN en español. Its more than confirmed that it was a chavist thug.

Videos will be posted when they get put on the net.


Fushar, in the other Venezuala thread Patrick Henry posted a link and an article about how only a portion of the unused and arable lands- especially those that were owned by speculators- was to be confiscated and sold to the landless people of Venezuela, and that the current owners of those lands were to be paid for those lands at current fair market prices. Is this true?

I take a dim view of speculators myself- they seem to engage in actions and practices that only serve to drive prices upwards. Such was the case of the Hunt Brothers here in the USA some years back, and their actions led to increasing the price of silver and gold upwards to $50.00/oz on silver and $1,050.00/oz on gold. They were sentenced to prison for those offenses, as they should have been. I was reading the other day that the price of crude was being driven upwards for the same reasons- speculators manipulating the oil market. Could the same basic psychological motives- greed and self-seeking, self serving behaviors- be the causes of all three past and current events, the dramatic rise in silver, gold and oil prices and the current unrest in Venezuela? And if that is the case should people just accept such psychological dysfunctions that are so disruptive to the rest of the planet or should they be confronted at every turn?

I saw that video you posted where the woman was saying there was no milk to be had. Could it be there was no milk to be had because so much land that could be used for grazing was held, unused, by those that wanted to hold onto the land for speculative purposes- in a nation where arable land is, and always has been, relatively scarce to begin with?

RRD
:question::question::question:

[Fushar]

Dont believe the communist propaganda saying it was the productors who wanted to increase the price of their products. The lack of foods, milk, sugar, etc are happening because chavez dictatorially fixed the prices.

You bring the "lands unused" arguments. Chavez has been in power almost 9 years, the state has the best lands in the country, why does he want to take private lands instead of using the state ones?. These 9 years are more than enough to put to produce HIS lands (the state lands).

---------------------------------------------

Source: http://foto.rompres.ro/index.php?i=1997307

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071107/capt.c383e769a1654729b213bba465363318.venezuela_pr otest_car106.jpg

A supporter of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez points a pistol toward two opponents of Chavez during clashes at Venezuela's Central University in Caracas, Wednesday, Nov. 7, 2007. Shots were fired during the clashes and at least one person was killed and sixteen injured. AP Photo

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071107/capt.2e9d8eb2b5aa4e01b5761234d7805411.venezuela_pr otest_car110.jpg

A paramedic carries an opponent of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez who was injured by a gunfire during clashes with Chavez supporters at Venezuela's Central University in Caracas, Wednesday, Nov. 7, 2007. Shots were fired during the clashes where at least one person was killed and six injured, according to the Director of Venezuela's Civil Defense Antonio Rivero. (AP Photo)

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071107/capt.d6c90963c5b8410db486c2cf89906ce6.venezuela_pr otest_car105.jpg

A masked gunman points a gun toward student opponents to Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez at Venezuela's Central University in Caracas, Wednesday, Nov. 7, 2007, shortly after the anti-Chavez students returned to the university from a protest against constitutional reforms that would expand Chavez's power. Shots were fired during the clashes where at least one person was killed and six injured, according to the Director of Venezuela's Civil Defense Antonio Rivero. (AP Photo)

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071107/capt.01a88e496c764cf182404c4386e528d4.aptopix_vene zuela_protest_car104.jpg

------------
This was early on:

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071107/capt.4a72d712b45c4c3381419a79d9d68323.venezuela_pr otest_car103.jpg[hr]Videos will be posted as soon as they are published on the web.[hr]More information from people in english: http://www.noticierodigital.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=282453&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Another student badly wounded in hard confrontations in San Cristobal Tachira.

[gemosological]

Quoting Fushar, post #48:

Dont believe the communist propaganda saying it was the productors who wanted to increase the price of their products. The lack of foods, milk, sugar, etc are happening because chavez dictatorially fixed the prices.

You bring the "lands unused" arguments. Chavez has been in power almost 9 years, the state has the best lands in the country, why does he want to take private lands instead of using the state ones?. These 9 years are more than enough to put to produce HIS lands (the state lands).


Does the "price fixing" mean that the Venezuelan producers cannot survive on what they are getting paid for their farm and dairy products? Or does it mean the retailers and middlemen are being held in check on what they make ( the profits) for what they sell?

It is my understanding that both the state lands and a portion of the privately held lands were to be used for agricultural purposes and sold to the landless peasants.
Am I correct in that? And if I am correct in that what- and who- is holding up the process?

I am glad we are engaging in dialogue. Es muy bueno. Es muy importante para compresion, que no?

RRD
:-)

[Fushar]

Someone asked me if the resistance groups are connected. So this was my answer:

I would say its all split. There are leaders of the movement in each state, but the most "famous" ones (to say it that way) are the ones from Caracas (Stalin Gonzales, Yon Goicochea, etc). Each state acts on its own mostly. The ones who are leading the struggle are the ones from San Cristobal (Tachira state) who have burned official vehicles and buildings. The most violent confrontations have ocurred there in Tachira, sad thing is that it has not been video taped because chavez ordered the GN and PoliTachira to shoot at everyone video taping to avoid the world to see the repression that is going on.

But also a lot of confrontations have taken place in Caracas, Merida, Trujillo, Lara, Anzoategui, Valencia, Barinas and here in Zulia. This is nationwide.

Here is a video, but unfortunately youtube deleted the most violent ones where the chavists entered the campus firing their guns on their motorcycles to rescue their criminals comrades who were trapped inside a building:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Key9JbVnWs

This is an interesting picture:

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5964/pistolerosqa4lf1.jpg

They are being identified and according to information that is going on on the web (by people themselves) some ex policemen who are against chavez dictatorship are planning to take justice into their hands. They are asking for the identification of these people who ambushed the peaceful protest when they were returning.

--------------------------------

Does the "price fixing" mean that the Venezuelan producers cannot survive on what they are getting paid for their farm and dairy products?

Exactly.

Or does it mean the retailers and middlemen are being held in check on what they make ( the profits) for what they sell?

It affects the producers. Since they are losing (example: investing 10 dollars and earning 2), they are no longer producing.

It is my understanding that both the state lands and a portion of the privately held lands were to be used for agricultural purposes and sold to the landless peasants.

The lands that chavez controls (which are the ones in better conditions) are given to people who support him, but since they are too corrupt, they steal the money invested and screw up the production.

[preservanation]

More excellent and enlightening posts, Fushar.
Thank you.
Chin up, chulo!

[I Like Beer]

Hmmmm... seems like the Venezuelan people really hate Chavez. I know, I know... the 100,000 were all bused in from outside....

Oh, did you know that Anti-Chavez protesters apply for, and receive permits to demonstrate against the government? Yeah, that's some kind of dictator who allows opposition permits to march.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2804
Over Hundred Thousand Venezuelans March in Support of Constitutional Reform
November 5th 2007, by Venezuelanalysis.com

Caracas, November 5, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com)- Over a hundred thousand Venezuleans marched in support of President Chavez and of his constitutional reform on Sunday, which Chavez described as the most important referendum of his presidency.

Marchers, almost all dressed in red - the color of Venezuela's Bolivarian movement - filled the entire 1.3 km (0.8 mi) Bolivar Avenue and spilled into side streets. The demonstration proceeded without incident and culminated with a three hour speech by Chavez.

Referring to opposition students who had rampaged down the same avenue where the pro-reform march was taking place and set fire to several trees and a police car, Chavez warned, "We won't allow these spoiled little brats, these rich kids with a silver spoon in their mouths to go around tearing up the center of Caracas." He asked the city mayor to closely examine permits for marches, in case the violence was their main objective. One of the opposition's main goals, according to Chavez, was a death that they can blame on the government.

The international news channel CNN was another target during Chavez's speech, which he accused of having joined the opposition because it was broadcasting unverified reports about Chavez supporters supposedly killing an anti-Chavez student during a demonstration last week. Police have already arrested the killer, who was hired to assassinate the student due to a dispute within the university that had nothing to do with the constitutional reform protests.

According to a recent opinion poll reported by Venezulea's largest circulation paper Últimas Noticias, 46.6% of Venezuelans believe that the reform is necessary, while 35.0% oppose it. Also, 72% of Venezuelans evaluate Chavez's job performance as being good to excellent, versus 25% who evaluate it as being bad to terrible.

Here's another article with a picture of the crowd.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2811

He explained, "this economic system will be managed by everyone, by all the constituents of the communes."

For example, he argued, gas stations would be managed by the communes, and that the income from this could be used to provide resources for social programs and community projects.

Hey Preserv, et al, doesn't he understand socialism doesn't work? Only a system like the US one does? It's no accident the US has the highest rate of child poverty in the industrialized world. Shit like that takes hard work.;)

[Fushar]

The following pictures, show the moment the chavist thugs on motorcycles came to help their other criminal comrades. As you can see they are using motorcycles from the police. As it was said before, the police are also the same thugs who intimidate the people. Thats why burning down their installations and anything that has to do with them is good. Take a look by yourself.

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9600_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9618_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9620_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9621_copia.jpg[hr]Look in the next picture, the word "Policia" on the motorcycles. These motorcycles belong to the Metropolitan Police (pro - chavez), who are full of criminals and thugs:

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9625_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9638_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9640_copia.jpg

http://www.derechos.org.ve/noticias/images/_MG_9641_copia.jpg

Is there still any doubt that chavez uses criminals and thugs combined with the police (both are the same) to intimidate the people?

Can you support someone like him?.

More here: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/07/venezuela.protest.violence.ap/index.html[hr]I like Beer, why are you putting information from pro-chavez websites? Those communist pro-chavez websites will never tell the truth. I invite you to come to Venezuela instead of relying and believing in full-of-lies websites with half-truths news.[hr]According to a recent opinion poll reported by Venezulea's largest circulation paper Últimas Noticias, 46.6% of Venezuelans believe that the reform is necessary, while 35.0% oppose it. Also, 72% of Venezuelans evaluate Chavez's job performance as being good to excellent, versus 25% who evaluate it as being bad to terrible.

LoL this is the biggest lies of them all. After reading this, no need to read anything else. Like I said, come to Venezuela and see by yourself. That website lies big time.

[Truth_and_Power]

Ditto RRD, are your opinions of the two consistent? Two "presidents" who are kept in power by the military.


I don't know if "consistent" is the right word. They are two different Presidents dealing with two very different situations. I do know it is very inconsistent to condemn the one but not the other for the very same types of actions. To condemn Chavez because he's a socialist and not Musharraf because he's an ally of Bush for committing the very same actions against their own people is extremely inconsistent- and "deranged"- IMO. Hell, even Bush is being more consistent on this than Preservanation or Fushar are.

RRD
:)


I see you're capable of criticising others, but you didnt answer the question. Are your opinions consistent?

[Fushar]

To I Like Beer: You have NO IDEA how many people have turned against chavez in the last months. You have NO IDEA. I would say 70% oppose the "reform" (actually new communist constitution). Of course my estimation is not 100% accurated, it may be less or more. The other 30% are people who dont really know what the new "reform" really is about and people who will support chavez no matter what (this would be the resented and the ignorants).

[I Like Beer]

Fushar...

No disrespect meant, but you're telling us that the police are openly transporting thugs around to intimidate and beat up anti-Chavez demonstrators? Is that right?

I have a question about Las Ultimas Noticias. It's the largest paper in Venezuela, correct? If it's a communist paper, why does it have the largest circulation?

[lavisod]

you honestly think communism is bad when the poorest 80% are given oppertunites to survive, land and food that they can afford or work on? Chavez is the greatest thing that country could ever get. i've researched the improvements hes made and i firmly believe that Chavez is a great president. Hes risking his own life to help the poor because hes compassionate. You capitalists are the greedy ones and basically your at war with your fellow man making them all struggle to survive. what we need to do is replace capitalism with volunteerism in direct democracy. give the communities control over their land and end private property. get rid of money and use a credit/debit system to make transactions visable. this would stop all the evil and illegal drug economy. capitalism is a system of compitition for profit and all off the exploitation of your fellow man. and you call this the american dream!

[Truth_and_Power]

you honestly think communism is bad when the poorest 80% are given oppertunites to survive, land and food that they can afford or work on? Chavez is the greatest thing that country could ever get. i've researched the improvements hes made and i firmly believe that Chavez is a great president. Hes risking his own life to help the poor because hes compassionate. You capitalists are the greedy ones and basically your at war with your fellow man making them all struggle to survive. what we need to do is replace capitalism with volunteerism in direct democracy. give the communities control over their land and end private property. get rid of money and use a credit/debit system to make transactions visable. this would stop all the evil and illegal drug economy. capitalism is a system of compitition for profit and all off the exploitation of your fellow man. and you call this the american dream!


A libertarian who wants to abolish private property. Now we've seen it all. :dork:

[preservanation]

Unfortunately it doesn't matter what 70% of the population "thinks" in a brutal dictatorship.
99.999% will go along with him, or else.
It's the 00.0001% I worry about and encourage.
They are the ones laying down their lives for freedom, just like our own pioneers.
Bless the fighters of freedom,
...you will be vindicated, and honored.

[ttriber]

Oh, did you know that Anti-Chavez protesters apply for, and receive permits to demonstrate against the government? Yeah, that's some kind of dictator who allows opposition permits to march.

Did you know that having permits to protest happends in most south American countries? Probably didn't now that in Argentina when I went their were people protesting that Government and it was a well known fact that they were being paid by the political opposition.

The problem that you guys don't see is the misery these people will soon face who oppose the Chavez Regime. They will start seeing former great friends turn into spies against their neighborhood to help the Chavez thugs and bullies threaten the opposition with force. Right now from what I see the news has been transformed to only what Chavez wants the people to hear and he is doing that by his 8 hour tv show and by making a fool out of himself.

The SOB needs to go and he needs to go soon. I hope the people who doubt Fushar get the message because right now they just don't get it maybe when he starts ordering hits on the leaders who oppose him. Maybe when its too late is when they will see the light.

[Scorpion]

you honestly think communism is bad when the poorest 80% are given oppertunites to survive, land and food that they can afford or work on? Chavez is the greatest thing that country could ever get. i've researched the improvements hes made and i firmly believe that Chavez is a great president. Hes risking his own life to help the poor because hes compassionate. You capitalists are the greedy ones and basically your at war with your fellow man making them all struggle to survive. what we need to do is replace capitalism with volunteerism in direct democracy. give the communities control over their land and end private property. get rid of money and use a credit/debit system to make transactions visable. this would stop all the evil and illegal drug economy. capitalism is a system of compitition for profit and all off the exploitation of your fellow man. and you call this the american dream!
I suspect that your research is based on propaganda and not credible sources.

If Chavez is such a humanitarian why does he force people to attend his rallies, promote police brutality, suppress free speech and send money abroad while his own people live in poverty?

Chavez is just another in a long line of Latin American communist dictators.

[lavisod]

i've seen three documentries on venezuela and all of them show that the elite rich are trying their best to destroy the country, not chavez. workers are taking back the factories, land is being given to the poor, community councils are empowering the people in the democractic process, food is given to all that need it, the fixed prices add to helping the poor obtain food, and much more. socialism is being sabataged but give it time. the rich elite will eventually lose their power and the people will have power. i was brought to tears several times watching the documentries because i am inspired by what a participatory society looks like. and those students that are protesting chavez are idiots. they can participate in the democratic process in more productive ways than insighting violence and panic. a socialist revolution is what america needs.

[I Like Beer]

Did you know that having permits to protest happends in most south American countries? Probably didn't now that in Argentina when I went their were people protesting that Government and it was a well known fact that they were being paid by the political opposition.

I don't understand your point.

The problem that you guys don't see is the misery these people will soon face who oppose the Chavez Regime. They will start seeing former great friends turn into spies...

I hope the people who doubt Fushar get the message because right now they just don't get it maybe when he starts ordering hits on the leaders who oppose him...

Your opposition, at least in this post, seems to center on those things you think WILL happen - but what evidence is there that these things will come to pass? Chavez has been around a while and he continues to have monitored elections.... people are free to protest... there is private media... there's an organized opposition... Yeah, he sounds like quite the despot.

For my part, yes, if he starts putting opposition leaders under house arrest, or worse, I will say it's time for him to go - wouldn't anyone call for the removal of a dictator who would do something like that, no matter what the circumstance?

[Scorpion]

i've seen three documentries on venezuela and all of them show that the elite rich are trying their best to destroy the country, not chavez. workers are taking back the factories, land is being given to the poor, community councils are empowering the people in the democractic process, food is given to all that need it, the fixed prices add to helping the poor obtain food, and much more. socialism is being sabataged but give it time. the rich elite will eventually lose their power and the people will have power. i was brought to tears several times watching the documentries because i am inspired by what a participatory society looks like. and those students that are protesting chavez are idiots. they can participate in the democratic process in more productive ways than insighting violence and panic. a socialist revolution is what america needs.


The documentaries which you saw counter the observations of the OP of this thread who lives in Venezuela.

What are the titles of the documentaries which you refer to?

[gemosological]

i've seen three documentries on venezuela and all of them show that the elite rich are trying their best to destroy the country, not chavez. workers are taking back the factories, land is being given to the poor, community councils are empowering the people in the democractic process, food is given to all that need it, the fixed prices add to helping the poor obtain food, and much more. socialism is being sabataged but give it time. the rich elite will eventually lose their power and the people will have power. i was brought to tears several times watching the documentries because i am inspired by what a participatory society looks like. and those students that are protesting chavez are idiots. they can participate in the democratic process in more productive ways than insighting violence and panic. a socialist revolution is what america needs.


And it's coming. You can't expect to make others suffer by being that selfish and self-centered without expecting a serious- and violent- backlash.
As the Bible says, let the war between good and evil begin. It is time. And the Bible makes it very clear who the evil ones will be.

RRD
:grrrr::fight::fight:

[I Like Beer]

I suspect that your research is based on propaganda and not credible sources.

Your research is based on what, exactly?

If Chavez is such a humanitarian why does he force people to attend his rallies, promote police brutality, suppress free speech and send money abroad while his own people live in poverty?

What is your evidence that people are FORCED to attend his rallies? On Nov 4th, tens of thousands attended a rally to support Chavez. What evidence do you have that these people were forced to come? What reprisals did they face for non-compliance?

Why does George Bush send money abroad while his own people live in poverty? The US has the HIGHEST level of child poverty in the industrialized world.

Child poverty in the United States

• Nearly 15 million American children live in poverty
• The effects of poverty take the lives of 27 children every day
• Families with children make up about 40% of the people who become homeless
• Children account for 25% of the homeless population
• 50% of people who become poor each year are children
• Since 1975, the child poverty rate has increased by over 40%
• 12 million American children have no health insurance and millions of others have inadequate insurance

• The National Center for Health Statistics found that poor children were 3.6 times more likely than more affluent children to have fair or poor health
• Poor children are 2 times more likely to die from birth defects and 5 times more likely to die from infectious diseases
• 14 million American children (30%) are hungry or at risk of hunger
• Due to cuts in programs for low-income children, 1.1 million additional children are being pushed into poverty or deeper into poverty
• Child poverty can be alleviated for $45 billion. This is less than the amount of money given in annual tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans during the 1980's and 1990's
• $1 spent on childhood immunization saves $10 in later health costs
http://www.freethechildren.org/getinvolved/geteducated/childpoverty.htm

[Scorpion]

I suspect that your research is based on propaganda and not credible sources.

Your research is based on what, exactly?

If Chavez is such a humanitarian why does he force people to attend his rallies, promote police brutality, suppress free speech and send money abroad while his own people live in poverty?

What is your evidence that people are FORCED to attend his rallies? On Nov 4th, tens of thousands attended a rally to support Chavez. What evidence do you have that these people were forced to come? What reprisals did they face for non-compliance?

Why does George Bush send money abroad while his own people live in poverty? The US has the HIGHEST level of child poverty in the industrialized world.

Child poverty in the United States

• Nearly 15 million American children live in poverty
• The effects of poverty take the lives of 27 children every day
• Families with children make up about 40% of the people who become homeless
• Children account for 25% of the homeless population
• 50% of people who become poor each year are children
• Since 1975, the child poverty rate has increased by over 40%
• 12 million American children have no health insurance and millions of others have inadequate insurance

• The National Center for Health Statistics found that poor children were 3.6 times more likely than more affluent children to have fair or poor health
• Poor children are 2 times more likely to die from birth defects and 5 times more likely to die from infectious diseases
• 14 million American children (30%) are hungry or at risk of hunger
• Due to cuts in programs for low-income children, 1.1 million additional children are being pushed into poverty or deeper into poverty
• Child poverty can be alleviated for $45 billion. This is less than the amount of money given in annual tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans during the 1980's and 1990's
• $1 spent on childhood immunization saves $10 in later health costs
http://www.freethechildren.org/getinvolved/geteducated/childpoverty.htm


I base my opinion on news reports and a source who lives in country and began this thread.

This thead is about Chavez and not Bush. Quit trying to deflect criticism by spinning this into another "Bush is just as bad" thread.

[I Like Beer]

I base my opinion on news reports and a source who lives in country and began this thread.

This thead is about Chavez and not Bush. Quit trying to deflect criticism by spinning this into another "Bush is just as bad" thread.

May I ask, which news reports you cite? I posted an article about tens of thousands marching in support of Chavez. Do you give equal weight to that report? What about the reports of fair elections? How do you select which reports you listen to, and which you do not?

As for Fushar, I will make no assumptions about his character or reason for posting. However, the opinions of one person can hardly be taken as representative of an entire country, wouldn't you agree? I, as a Canadian, would get a very interesting opinion of the US if I only listened to Patrick Henry, or ViolaLee, or ECW, yes? I hope you see my point.

The thread is about Chavez. You criticized a certain policy of his and I only pointed out that the US has a similar policy. That was not to point out that "Bush is just as bad", you're reading that into my post. Your problems with child poverty can be traced back to Clinton's assault on big government - if not further. I just find it odd that you will criticize a 'dictator' for doing the same things your own government does.

Doesn't seem to me that you hold your government in much esteem if that is the case.

[Scorpion]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5755-2005Mar27.html

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/rrModels/

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040820.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/ven-summary-eng

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38957

...and there are others.

I fail to see what relative point is achieved by comparing Chavez to Bush.

[preservanation]

US President George W. Bush criticized the economic model of Venezuelan counterpart Hugo Chavez, saying it would lead to more poverty, on the eve of a tour of Latin America aimed at warning against the dangers of populism and isolationism.


"I strongly believe that government-run industry is inefficient and will lead to more poverty," Bush replied to a question on Chavez's economic model, which includes nationalizations and muscular state intervention.

"So the United States brings a message of open markets and open government to the region," he said. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070307142649.3ts3517u&show_article=1

U.S. Poverty Rate Declines Significantly

Aug 28
By STEPHEN OHLEMACHER
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Five years into a national economic recovery, the share of Americans living in poverty finally dropped.
The nation's poverty rate was 12.3 percent in 2006, down from 12.6 percent a year before, the Census Bureau reported Tuesday. Median household income increased slightly, to $48,200.

But Douglas Besharov, a resident scholar at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said there is a lot of good news in the numbers.

"We're looking at a situation where unemployment was down, and it was down for single mothers, who make up a substantial portion of the people in poverty," Besharov said. "We need a good economy. That's not all we need, but we should not complain when it helps lower poverty."

The last significant decline in the poverty rate came in 2000, during the Clinton administration, when it went from 11.9 percent to 11.3 percent.

The poverty rate increased every year for the next four years, peaking at 12.7 percent in 2004. It was 12.6 percent in 2005, but Census officials said that change was statistically insignificant.

The poverty level is the official measure used to decide eligibility for federal health, housing, nutrition and child care benefits. It differs by family size and makeup. For a family of four with two children, for example, the poverty level is $20,444. (Many people don't know this, but those figs DO NOT represent any dollars from public assistance, none. So that figure is skewed drastically. Medicaid picks up their Health-care already, anyway at that level. See the bottom of this post to see what is not included as income by the census bureau and why this would raise the poverty level significantly. [sic])

"These statistics show what most Americans know: tens of millions of our fellow citizens are completely left out of the economic progress enjoyed by the individuals and corporations on the very top," said Democrat John Edwards, who has made eradicating poverty a centerpiece of his campaign. "We need truly universal health care and a national effort to eliminate poverty." (Good luck with that one, chulo![sic])

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton noted that there were a lot fewer people without health insurance when she first addressed the issue as first lady. In 1993, there were 39.7 million Americans without health insurance, according to the Census Bureau.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8RA89A80&show_article=1
How you define income matters.
Not counting government cash assistance as income raises the poverty rate.
Counting noncash benefits (such as Medicaid, Medicare, and subsidized school lunches) as income lowers the poverty rate.

Not counting certain types of expenses as income changes who is considered to be in poverty.
Not counting work-related expenses raises poverty rates for married-couple families.
Not counting out-of-pocket medical expenses as income raises the poverty rate for older Americans.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/whypov.html

The following items are not figured as "income" and thus are not represented in the official poverty threshold.
What programs use the poverty guidelines?
The HHS poverty guidelines, or percentage multiples of them (such as 125 percent, 150 percent, or 185 percent), are used as an eligibility criterion by a number of federal programs, including those listed below. For examples of major means-tested programs that do not use the poverty guidelines, see the end of this response.

Department of Health and Human Services:
Community Services Block Grant
Head Start
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)
Community Food and Nutrition Program
PARTS of Medicaid (31 percent of eligibles in Fiscal Year 2004)
Hill-Burton Uncompensated Services Program
AIDS Drug Assistance Program
State Children’s Health Insurance Program
Medicare – Prescription Drug Coverage (subsidized portion only)
Community Health Centers
Migrant Health Centers
Family Planning Services
Health Professions Student Loans — Loans for Disadvantaged Students
Health Careers Opportunity Program
Scholarships for Health Professions Students from Disadvantaged Backgrounds
Job Opportunities for Low-Income Individuals
Assets for Independence Demonstration Program
Department of Agriculture:
Food Stamp Program
Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC)
National School Lunch Program (for free and reduced-price meals only)
School Breakfast Program (for free and reduced-price meals only)
Child and Adult Care Food Program (for free and reduced-price meals only)
Expanded Food and Nutrition Education Program
Department of Energy:
Weatherization Assistance for Low-Income Persons
Department of Labor:
Job Corps
National Farmworker Jobs Program
Senior Community Service Employment Program
Workforce Investment Act Youth Activities
Department of the Treasury:
Low-Income Taxpayer Clinics
Corporation for National and Community Service:
Foster Grandparent Program
Senior Companion Program
Legal Services Corporation:
Legal Services for the Poor
Most of these programs are non-open-ended programs — that is, programs for which a fixed amount of money is appropriated each year. The only open-ended or “entitlement” programs that use the poverty guidelines for eligibility are Food Stamps, the National School Lunch Program, certain parts of Medicaid, and the subsidized portion of Medicare – Prescription Drug Coverage.

Some state and local governments have chosen to use the federal poverty guidelines in some of their own programs and activities. Examples include financial guidelines for child support enforcement and determination of legal indigence for court purposes. Some private companies (such as utilities, telephone companies, and pharmaceutical companies) and some charitable agencies also use the guidelines in setting eligibility for their services to low-income persons.

Major means-tested programs that do not use the poverty guidelines in determining eligibility include the following:

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and its predecessor, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) (in most cases)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC)
State/local-funded General Assistance (in most cases)
Large parts of Medicaid (69 percent of eligibles in Fiscal Year 2004)
Section 8 low-income housing assistance
Low-rent public housing http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/faq.shtml#before

Yeah, the poor are being left out in the cold by the heartless US of A.

IMHO, Chavez has nothing on America when it comes to taking care of the less well off or less fortunate in our respective countries.
It seems to me, we do A LOT!

All Chavez seems to do is repress his population, cook the numbers, and enrich the elites who support him.
Maybe his strategy for the war on poverty is to kill all the poor...that'll bring down the numbers.[hr]
Beer posted this grandiose link...Child poverty in the United States

• Nearly 15 million American children live in poverty
• The effects of poverty take the lives of 27 children every day
• Families with children make up about 40% of the people who become homeless
• Children account for 25% of the homeless population
• 50% of people who become poor each year are children
• Since 1975, the child poverty rate has increased by over 40%
• 12 million American children have no health insurance and millions of others have inadequate insurance

• The National Center for Health Statistics found that poor children were 3.6 times more likely than more affluent children to have fair or poor health
• Poor children are 2 times more likely to die from birth defects and 5 times more likely to die from infectious diseases
• 14 million American children (30%) are hungry or at risk of hunger
• Due to cuts in programs for low-income children, 1.1 million additional children are being pushed into poverty or deeper into poverty
• Child poverty can be alleviated for $45 billion. This is less than the amount of money given in annual tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans during the 1980's and 1990's
• $1 spent on childhood immunization saves $10 in later health costs http://www.freethechildren.org/getinvolv...overty.htm
I went to this site. Nothing is sourced.
Scorp is right, Seems like a propaganda site to me too.
• 12 million American children have no health insurance and millions of others have inadequate insuranceDoes this include those covered under Medicaid? This is important!

12 mill without health INSURANCE?
Well, maybe, they do not provide a source of any kind.....
but how many have access to Health CARE?
There is a difference, Don'cha ya know!

"Those who can't identify a site as propaganda...are doomed to repeat it!"

[I Like Beer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5755-2005Mar27.html

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/categories/rrModels/

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/baroneweb/mb_040820.htm

http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/ven-summary-eng

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38957

...and there are others.

I fail to see what relative point is achieved by comparing Chavez to Bush.

Cool. I'm glad you chose Amnesty, I guess you must put a lot of stock in it?

Here's the page for the USA.
http://web.amnesty.org/report2006/usa-summary-eng
It's considerably longer than the report on Venezuela. Also, if you do a search for the word "torture" it comes up on the USA page, but not on the Venezuelan page. I found that interesting. I know, I know... the thread is about Venezuela.

Also (and I will say it again), I wasn't comparing Bush to Chavez (that's a whole other thread), I was comparing US and Venezuelan policy - or Bush/Chavez POLICY. As to why it's relevant, well, I find it odd to criticize someone over something that your own leaders do unless you're gonna criticize them as well. As I stated, US problems with poverty can be traced back further than Bush.

I'm curious about one thing... if the media has such a liberal bias why are liberal outlets like US News and World Report and the NY Times against Chavez?

Preserv if the liberal media wants to bring about a socialist utopia, shouldn't they be kissin' his ass? Shouldn't Hilary be down there having her photo taking with him?[hr]
The last significant decline in the poverty rate came in 2000, during the Clinton administration, when it went from 11.9 percent to 11.3 percent.

The poverty rate increased every year for the next four years, peaking at 12.7 percent in 2004. It was 12.6 percent in 2005, but Census officials said that change was statistically insignificant.

I found that little tidbit interesting. Thanks for posting it. So, the child poverty rate under Bush rose. Weren't all those tax cuts supposed to help the poor not increase their numbers by a few million? What happened?

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton noted that there were a lot fewer people without health insurance when she first addressed the issue as first lady. In 1993, there were 39.7 million Americans without health insurance, according to the Census Bureau.

Wow, you're quoting Hillary now? Now, I've seen everything. I thought she was a lying socialist. Why would she say that when her whole thing is about getting government control over individuals. Hmmmm.....

Yes, US poverty rates fell in 2005, however, Mexico is the only industrialized nation with a child poverty rate HIGHER than the US. Something to be proud of, you beat Mexico.

Denmark and Finland show the lowest child poverty rates, of less than 3 per cent. In contrast, the
United States and Mexico have child poverty rates of more than 20 per