View Full Version : Rudy The Neocon Smear Merchant
Looks like Rudy is picking up where Cheney and Bush have left off. It's exactly the kind of neocon bullshit that poisons the well and then they complain that there is no cooperation between the two parties. When you say crap like this, who wants to work with you?
Democrats blasted Rudy Giuliani for saying Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama would invite Mahmoud Ahmadinjead to the inaugural ball.
Giuliani, the Republican presidential candidate campaigning in New Hampshire over the weekend, attacked the Democratic front-runners, Senators Obama (D-Ill.) and Clinton (D-N.Y.) for saying they would seek negotiations with the Iranian leader to end a suspected nuclear weapons program.
"This is the world we live in," The Associated Press quoted the former New York City mayor as saying. "It's not this happy, romantic-like world where we'll negotiate with this one, or we'll negotiate with that one and there will be no preconditions, and we'll invite Ahmadinejad to the White House, we'll invite Assad," referring to Syrian President Bashar Assad, to the White House. "Hillary and Obama are kind of debating whether to invite them to the inauguration or the inaugural ball."
~link~ (http://www2.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/105011.html)
jafar00
11-03-2007, 06:15 AM
So what if they are considering better relations with Iran (or Syria). Surely making an effort to be friends is more constructive than surrounding them with an army and pointing Nuclear bombs at them?
Labrocca
11-03-2007, 06:21 AM
Is Rudy technically a neocon or you do you just bring out that label for any Republican you don't like? Just curious because I don't see evidence that Rudy is a neoconservative.
As for his comments...Rudy has always been one to speak his mind. He is a love'em or hate'em kind of person.
Scorpion
11-03-2007, 01:34 PM
Why can't Democrats take a harmless off hand remark without wetting their pants all over each other? No bloody sense of humor at all.
Besides, he's right. Ahmadinjead would fit right in with that crew. They should also invite Chavez and really make a party of it.
Is Rudy technically a neocon or you do you just bring out that label for any Republican you don't like? Just curious because I don't see evidence that Rudy is a neoconservative.
As for his comments...Rudy has always been one to speak his mind. He is a love'em or hate'em kind of person.
No, Rudy isn't a neocon but comments like that are red meat for the neocon nation that he is trying to attract votes from so he says crap in the same fashion as they do: without thinking and without merit. This "boys will be boys" mentality towards unjustified associations with America's enemies is what got us into the mess we are in today. Cowboy diplomacy (and comments that sound like cowboy diplomacy, for lack of a better word) is one of the most ignorant tactics America has used on the world stage since Shock and Awe. Rudy can speak his mind all he wants to because everytime he does he shows more and more people how spectacularly unqualified he is to be president.
Rudy was a good mayor. He was pretty thin-skinned about being criticized and vindictive towards those who did. He rose to the occasion on 9/11 but one act of bravery does not qualify one for the presidency. Comments like this are proof.[hr]
Why can't Democrats take a harmless off hand remark without wetting their pants all over each other? No bloody sense of humor at all.
If I thought for a moment that he was trying to be funny and NOT smear opponents he would be facing in his quest for the holy grail, I would agree. But they were not intended as humor. They were a variation of the "terrorist sympathizer" remarks that neocons love to throw at anyone who strays from the "kill 'em first, ask questions later" mindset they willingly follow. They have no place in a presidential campaign unless you are trolling for the bottom feeder vote. Looks like that's what Rudy is aiming for.
Scorpion
11-03-2007, 04:11 PM
Is Rudy technically a neocon or you do you just bring out that label for any Republican you don't like? Just curious because I don't see evidence that Rudy is a neoconservative.
As for his comments...Rudy has always been one to speak his mind. He is a love'em or hate'em kind of person.
No, Rudy isn't a neocon but comments like that are red meat for the neocon nation that he is trying to attract votes from so he says crap in the same fashion as they do: without thinking and without merit. This "boys will be boys" mentality towards unjustified associations with America's enemies is what got us into the mess we are in today. Cowboy diplomacy (and comments that sound like cowboy diplomacy, for lack of a better word) is one of the most ignorant tactics America has used on the world stage since Shock and Awe. Rudy can speak his mind all he wants to because everytime he does he shows more and more people how spectacularly unqualified he is to be president.
Rudy was a good mayor. He was pretty thin-skinned about being criticized and vindictive towards those who did. He rose to the occasion on 9/11 but one act of bravery does not qualify one for the presidency. Comments like this are proof.[hr]
Why can't Democrats take a harmless off hand remark without wetting their pants all over each other? No bloody sense of humor at all.
If I thought for a moment that he was trying to be funny and NOT smear opponents he would be facing in his quest for the holy grail, I would agree. But they were not intended as humor. They were a variation of the "terrorist sympathizer" remarks that neocons love to throw at anyone who strays from the "kill 'em first, ask questions later" mindset they willingly follow. They have no place in a presidential campaign unless you are trolling for the bottom feeder vote. Looks like that's what Rudy is aiming for.
Like I said, no sense of humor whatsoever. And again, just because he made an off handed remark about liberals doesn't make him a neocon.
I'm a bit surprised hat you equate inviting Ahmadinjead to the inaugural ball as being a "terrorist sympathizer." How did you come to that analogy? Unless you're admitting that Ahmadinjead is indeed a terrorist. Are you? If so, quite a few of your liberal buddies on this forum might take issue with you (Go get him Jafar).
AlanC
11-03-2007, 04:20 PM
I'm surprised the barrel still has a bottom, its been scraped so much.
If this is all you can find that is objectionable in the man, say hello to your next president. Unlike Kerry's jokes that insulted all the wrong people, according to him, after the fact, this one is pretty much on mark in the statement that it wants to make.
So what if they are considering better relations with Iran (or Syria). Surely making an effort to be friends is more constructive than surrounding them with an army and pointing Nuclear bombs at them?
Exactly Neville Chamberlin's point. And it worked so well for him.
Like I said, no sense of humor whatsoever. And again, just because he made an off handed remark about liberals doesn't make him a neocon.
I'm a bit surprised hat you equate inviting Ahmadinjead to the inaugural ball as being a "terrorist sympathizer." How did you come to that analogy? Unless you're admitting that Ahmadinjead is indeed a terrorist. Are you? If so, quite a few of your liberal buddies on this forum might take issue with you.
I already admitted as much right here...
No, Rudy isn't a neocon
but he is starting to talk like one.
Here's a revelation for you, Mike: I am not like any of my other Liberal buddies here on this forum. We may have some things in common but, for the sake of an argument, don't try lumping me in with them because I am responsible for my words here, not anyone else's. And if they want to take issue with me, let them. I promise I won't get upset.
Now to the subject of Ahmadinjead. This guy is a manipulating nut case. My biggest bone of contention with this guy comes from statements some of the hostages that were held in our embassy for 444 days made after this guy became president. They said he was one of the student leaders that interrogated them while they were being held hostage. He came up with a cover story and the press came out with pictures that showed a man that looked just like him on site during those times. If I were president, I wouldn't deal with him until he came clean about it. His actions during the Hostage Crisis gets him the bum's rush from me. I would not talk to him but I would talk to the Religious Council (or whatever it is) that he takes orders from. Ahmadinjead is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. Take it for what it's worth.
Scorpion
11-03-2007, 04:38 PM
Now to the subject of Ahmadinjead. This guy is a manipulating nut case. My biggest bone of contention with this guy comes from statements some of the hostages that were held in our embassy for 444 days made after this guy became president. They said he was one of the student leaders that interrogated them while they were being held hostage. He came up with a cover story and the press came out with pictures that showed a man that looked just like him on site during those times. If I were president, I wouldn't deal with him until he came clean about it. His actions during the Hostage Crisis gets him the bum's rush from me. I would not talk to him but I would talk to the Religious Council (or whatever it is) that he takes orders from. Ahmadinjead is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. Take it for what it's worth.
Well said. We are in total agreement about Ahmadinjead who is a poster boy for Islamofacism.
Labrocca
11-03-2007, 09:46 PM
Now to the subject of Ahmadinjead. This guy is a manipulating nut case. My biggest bone of contention with this guy comes from statements some of the hostages that were held in our embassy for 444 days made after this guy became president. They said he was one of the student leaders that interrogated them while they were being held hostage. He came up with a cover story and the press came out with pictures that showed a man that looked just like him on site during those times. If I were president, I wouldn't deal with him until he came clean about it. His actions during the Hostage Crisis gets him the bum's rush from me. I would not talk to him but I would talk to the Religious Council (or whatever it is) that he takes orders from. Ahmadinjead is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. Take it for what it's worth.
Hmm...interesting post. I too have always had in the back of my mind that incident. I can't help but feel the hostages were right and this is their man. One wonders how Amanandjanidiaia (whatever) gained the favor of the local Imans to rise in power.
I think Rudy doesn't mind appealing to the extreme elements of his base but in reality he isn't nearly as extreme as his statements. Also he wasn't thin-skinned as mayor. He just spoke his mind when he was under fire...which was all the time.
lawless168
11-03-2007, 10:02 PM
Ahmadinjead is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned.
Sounds like words from a neocon to me!
lol
Now to the subject of Ahmadinjead. This guy is a manipulating nut case. My biggest bone of contention with this guy comes from statements some of the hostages that were held in our embassy for 444 days made after this guy became president. They said he was one of the student leaders that interrogated them while they were being held hostage. He came up with a cover story and the press came out with pictures that showed a man that looked just like him on site during those times. If I were president, I wouldn't deal with him until he came clean about it. His actions during the Hostage Crisis gets him the bum's rush from me. I would not talk to him but I would talk to the Religious Council (or whatever it is) that he takes orders from. Ahmadinjead is a terrorist as far as I'm concerned. Take it for what it's worth.
Well said. We are in total agreement about Ahmadinjead who is a poster boy for Islamofacism.
Therefore, Rudy's attempt to smear Obama and Hillary by negative association is a neocon crock of crap. In my opinion, a real conservative doesn't have to stoop to these tactics because the soundness of their ideas speaks for themselves. Yeah, Rudy isn't a neocon but he's starting to sound like one as time goes on.[hr]
Hmm...interesting post. I too have always had in the back of my mind that incident. I can't help but feel the hostages were right and this is their man. One wonders how Amanandjanidiaia (whatever) gained the favor of the local Imans to rise in power.
I think Rudy doesn't mind appealing to the extreme elements of his base but in reality he isn't nearly as extreme as his statements. Also he wasn't thin-skinned as mayor. He just spoke his mind when he was under fire...which was all the time.
"Amanandjanidiaia (whatever)" gained favor by being willing to do the Imams' bidding while posing as a moderate to the rest of the world. His student radical background did not hurt his resume either.
Rudy may not be as extreme as his statements but I can certainly dig up plenty of incidents that only made the local media in NYC that point to his thin skin about a whole host of issues. Rudy's diplomatic skills are about as skillful as Chesswarsnow's were. Rudy speaks his mind all right...
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 01:35 AM
I'm surprised the barrel still has a bottom, its been scraped so much.
If this is all you can find that is objectionable in the man, say hello to your next president. Unlike Kerry's jokes that insulted all the wrong people, according to him, after the fact, this one is pretty much on mark in the statement that it wants to make.
So what if they are considering better relations with Iran (or Syria). Surely making an effort to be friends is more constructive than surrounding them with an army and pointing Nuclear bombs at them?
Exactly Neville Chamberlin's point. And it worked so well for him.
Hey, come on AlanC, it isn't like Giuliani referred to anyone as a "kid." That REALLY ticks off the radical left.
This is little more than what appears to be the extension of a new tactic of taking an innocuous comment that criticizes anyone on the left or comments on a current event and attaching insidious meaning to it.
Mark my words, we will see much more of this, and the demand that such specious and likely concocted indignance be accepted.
I'm surprised the barrel still has a bottom, its been scraped so much.
If this is all you can find that is objectionable in the man, say hello to your next president. Unlike Kerry's jokes that insulted all the wrong people, according to him, after the fact, this one is pretty much on mark in the statement that it wants to make.
So what if they are considering better relations with Iran (or Syria). Surely making an effort to be friends is more constructive than surrounding them with an army and pointing Nuclear bombs at them?
Exactly Neville Chamberlin's point. And it worked so well for him.
Hey, come on AlanC, it isn't like Giuliani referred to anyone as a "kid." That REALLY ticks off the radical left.
This is little more than what appears to be the extension of a new tactic of taking an innocuous comment that criticizes anyone on the left or comments on a current event and attaching insidious meaning to it.
Mark my words, we will see much more of this, and the demand that such specious and likely concocted indignance be accepted.
I got a nickel that says that Rudy knows what a "kid" is and doesn't try and tell us that it's anyone younger than himself instead of a teenager or a child the way the dictionary describes it.
Innocuous comments are comment that have little value, are harmless or inoffensive. Associating one with America's known enemies hardly meets that standard but I am not surprised that you would think otherwise. If a prominent Democrat began calling Mitt Romney or any other Republican "America's New Stalin" or "The Mussolini of The Right" you would not sit there and smugly try and pass off those comment as innocuous. Or would you?
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 02:28 AM
Hmmmm, it would seem that in your response ECW, you are now as much as claiming that Ahmadinejad and Assad are enemies of America as many have claimed for quite some time now, yet many on the left have decried as misunderstood.
No-one claimed the candidates on the left are "Stalin" or "Mussolin," and the strawman you draw up by trying to tie those characters into the discussion has fallen over with a loud thud. Especially so when one considers that left wing candidates claim that we are not communicating enough with some of the individuals that Giuliani included in his list.
Selective outrage is apparently still considered an effective tool of the radical left.
Elrathin
11-04-2007, 02:38 AM
Hmmmm, it would seem that in your response ECW, you are now as much as claiming that Ahmadinejad and Assad are enemies of America as many have claimed for quite some time now, yet many on the left have decried as misunderstood.
There are many enemies of America Boogy, now which ones deserve military confronting? And which loved ones in your family are you willing to send to their deaths for it? That is the biggest question.
Hey, come on AlanC, it isn't like Giuliani referred to anyone as a "kid." That REALLY ticks off the radical left.
This is really getting boring.
This is little more than what appears to be the extension of a new tactic of taking an innocuous comment that criticizes anyone on the left or comments on a current event and attaching insidious meaning to it.
Mark my words, we will see much more of this, and the demand that such specious and likely concocted indignance be accepted.
He may have been joking, who knows. .....but if you decide what is going to be "worthy" of discussing.......we won't be discussing much.
Rudy is running on the platform of 911 and he can keep us safe. IMO this was just another jab. If not, he wouldn't have said it the way he did.
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 02:43 AM
Hmmmm, it would seem that in your response ECW, you are now as much as claiming that Ahmadinejad and Assad are enemies of America as many have claimed for quite some time now, yet many on the left have decried as misunderstood.
There are many enemies of America Boogy, now which ones deserve military confronting? And which loved ones in your family are you willing to send to their deaths for it? That is the biggest question.
So are YOU also stepping up as ECW has inadvertantly done and admitting that we DO have enemies out there? I am not talking about jumping Iran militarily nor am I talking about obliterating Syria. Nice effort to take the discussion off topic, I almost went for it. :)
Are you also claiming the selective outrage espoused by others about what is a typical mocking comment that we are likely to here much more of by both major parties here?
Elrathin
11-04-2007, 02:57 AM
So are YOU also stepping up as ECW has inadvertantly done and admitting that we DO have enemies out there?
Of course we have enemies. I have enemies in real life, but that doesn't mean I am going to their house and kill them either.
I am not talking about jumping Iran militarily nor am I talking about obliterating Syria. Nice effort to take the discussion off topic, I almost went for it. :)
I asked you a question boogy, you could have simply answered it that you don't think military action is necessary. It wasn't mean in the way you are taking it.
Are you also claiming the selective outrage espoused by others about what is a typical mocking comment that we are likely to here much more of by both major parties here?
No, I am not. However, there are many DUMB conservatives out there that have the comment of "Let's nuke em" and don't deny that.
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 03:05 AM
Are you also claiming the selective outrage espoused by others about what is a typical mocking comment that we are likely to here much more of by both major parties here?
No, I am not. However, there are many DUMB conservatives out there that have the comment of "Let's nuke em" and don't deny that.
There are just as many feverishly naive liberals out there who think that the world is a pretty place full of people who just want to be our friends El. Such vapid generalizations don't get us anywhere in the discussion at hand or in working together as a country.
We are discussing the baseless claim that Rudy Giuliani is a "smear merchant" because he mocked Clinton and Obama for their stand on closer relations with Assad and Ahmadinejad.
We are discussing the baseless claim that Rudy Giuliani is a "smear merchant" because he mocked Clinton and Obama for their stand on closer relations with Assad and Ahmadinejad.
Yeah! That not talking to your enemies is working out so well! What fools Obama and Hillary are for suggesting negotiations!
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 03:51 AM
We are discussing the baseless claim that Rudy Giuliani is a "smear merchant" because he mocked Clinton and Obama for their stand on closer relations with Assad and Ahmadinejad.
Yeah! That not talking to your enemies is working out so well! What fools Obama and Hillary are for suggesting negotiations!
Yeah, and simple political discourse over those who disagree with your position is not an egregious smear tactic as these types of thread seem to intimate.
Got subtlety?
Elrathin
11-04-2007, 03:55 AM
We are discussing the baseless claim that Rudy Giuliani is a "smear merchant" because he mocked Clinton and Obama for their stand on closer relations with Assad and Ahmadinejad.
So you think it is baseless that it is a smear that they would invite them to the inaugural ball? COME ON!
That is a smear and you know it.
AlanC
11-04-2007, 03:58 AM
It was an obvious joke... If you are going to take every word by every candidate in its most literal sense, you are going to be quite crazy by the time the election comes around.
BoogyMan
11-04-2007, 04:31 AM
It was an obvious joke... If you are going to take every word by every candidate in its most literal sense, you are going to be quite crazy by the time the election comes around.
Well said AlanC, well said.
I do feel that this is a concerted effort, one we will see much more of, to frame the political environment. I am just glad that the left has chosen such a ridiculous tactic that is so easily exposed to the light of day where it will die quickly at the hands of the truth.
Elrathin
11-04-2007, 05:30 AM
It was an obvious joke... If you are going to take every word by every candidate in its most literal sense, you are going to be quite crazy by the time the election comes around.
I'll remember that next time a conservative takes the LITERAL word of a liberal canddiate then.
Oh and for Boogy, words have meaning remember?
preservanation
11-04-2007, 11:58 AM
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
Every challenge by a Lib is classified as speaking truth to power.
IMO, this is a very wimpy tactic by the left.
Voters see through this childish strategy, for the simple reason we were all 6 years old once and have seen it before.
We now see Hillary employing this on her Dem opponents.
When she attacks she is a strong woman taking on the "old boys club".
When they challenge, they are "picking on the girl".
Good luck with that.
She's not in preschool recess anymore.
Elrathin
11-04-2007, 12:12 PM
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
You see his remark as a challenge? LOL, now that's funny. It was a smear, plain and simple, but do put your support in for smear politics. It says more about conservatives supporting it than I ever could about some conservatives supporting dirty politics.
lawless168
11-04-2007, 01:00 PM
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
Every challenge by a Lib is classified as speaking truth to power.
LOL, and welcome to the "democracy forums" :ecstatic:
Deadshot
11-04-2007, 01:20 PM
It was an obvious joke... If you are going to take every word by every candidate in its most literal sense, you are going to be quite crazy by the time the election comes around.
Well said AlanC, well said.
I do feel that this is a concerted effort, one we will see much more of, to frame the political environment. I am just glad that the left has chosen such a ridiculous tactic that is so easily exposed to the light of day where it will die quickly at the hands of the truth.
Please keep this in mind, both you and AlanC, in the future.
John Kerry made a stupid joke a few months back about our Troops and ones intelligence. It was meant as a joke, but did not come across that way to the troops or the Right. Kerry got crucified, as he should have, because of the offensive nature of the joke.
When your POTUS candidate jokes about something that can be taken out of context or is simply rude and wrong, expect the same treatment the John Kerry got.
Tit for Tat, gentlemen.
Scorpion
11-04-2007, 01:25 PM
Please keep this in mind, both you and AlanC, in the future.
John Kerry made a stupid joke a few months back about our Troops and ones intelligence. It was meant as a joke, but did not come across that way to the troops or the Right. Kerry got crucified, as he should have, because of the offensive nature of the joke.
When your POTUS candidate jokes about something that can be taken out of context or is simply rude and wrong, expect the same treatment the John Kerry got.
Tit for Tat, gentlemen.
What you say makes alot of sense DS. If your ambition is to be the President then you best think before you speak. That goes for all parties.
preservanation
11-05-2007, 01:11 PM
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
Every challenge by a Lib is classified as speaking truth to power.
LOL, and welcome to the "democracy forums" :ecstatic:
No kidding, lawless.
I should be impervious to it by now, but I thought I would just point out the obvious one more time, in case somebody missed it.
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
Every challenge by a Lib is classified as speaking truth to power.
Every challenge WITHOUT A CITATION is an opinion. Every challenge WITH A CITATION can be used as a fact until proven otherwise. I brought a citation. What did you bring? Did you bring proof that he did not say it? No. Did you bring proof that he was joking? No. I saw the clip. Rudy was not joking. I've seen him on comedy shows. He has a great sense of humor but this was not said as part of a joke or with a punchline. This was a smear in every sense of the word.
Try again. Bring more than your opinion to the table.
Scorpion
11-06-2007, 05:16 AM
Every challenge by a Rep is classified as an attack and smear.
Every challenge by a Lib is classified as speaking truth to power.
Every challenge WITHOUT A CITATION is an opinion. Every challenge WITH A CITATION can be used as a fact until proven otherwise. I brought a citation. What did you bring? Did you bring proof that he did not say it? No. Did you bring proof that he was joking? No. I saw the clip. Rudy was not joking. I've seen him on comedy shows. He has a great sense of humor but this was not said as part of a joke or with a punchline. This was a smear in every sense of the word.
Try again. Bring more than your opinion to the table.
I think that Giuliani's comments were meant to be humorous but they were in bad taste. If he expects to be regarded as presidential material then he must start thinking about the consequences of his remarks before speaking.
In sum though, it's much ado about nothing.
I guess my sense of humor doesn't stretch to those areas. I like a well placed jab as well as the next guy. McCain remarked that he missed Woodstock because "he was tied up at the time" was a funny comment. Bush saying that he would prefer not to go hunting with Dick Cheney was funny. This wasn't funny. It was Rudy's attempt to link the top two Democratic candidates to our nation's enemies in the same way that sleezy Saxby Chambliss linked Max Cleland with Saddam and Jesse Helms would use racial images to bolster his base against black opponents.
There seems to be a plethora of rightwingers who cannot control their mouths anymore and they all hide behind bullshit attempts at passing it off as humor to get themselves off the hook. I ain't buying it. Rudy is catering to the base here and trying to drum up support for his run. That's all. He'll say whatever it takes to get the votes.
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