PDA

View Full Version : The Democrats Are Chicken About Turkey


HumanBeast
10-26-2007, 12:06 AM
From the U.S. News & World Report:


By Mortimer Zuckerman
Posted October 18, 2007

As if we don't have enough problems dealing with the present, we now are in serious difficulties dealing with the past—about what happened nearly a century ago in the dying days of the Ottoman Empire.

When "the sick man of Europe" finally expired, Turkish generals and political leaders created a new nation, a new culture, and a new self-image as a civilized, decent country. Modern Turkey has become a crucial ally of the United States. Now the Turks are enraged because the Democratic leadership in Congress has chosen this time to brand Turkey with the terrible crime of genocide.

Related News
The Challenges of Confronting the Ugly Truth of Armenian Genocide
Political Fighting Over a Word
Was It Genocide or Not? (Oct. 12)
Browse through an archive of columns by Mortimer B. Zuckerman
The Turks acknowledge that Armenians were massacred, but so, too, they say, were many innocent Turks. The key question is whether there was a systematic attempt to eliminate every Armenian because of ethnicity or religion. Large numbers survived—which is more than can be said of the Jews under the Nazis.

The weight of opinion among historians outside Turkey is to mark the deaths as genocide. This is the judgment of some 22 countries, including many in the European Union, which Turkey wishes to join. It is an argument about history, but it has moral reverberations today when ethnic cleansing is a plague. In Iraq, the Shiites wage ethnic war against Sunni Muslims and Iraqi Christians, driving out at least half of Iraq's entire Christian minority of 2 million people. In Lebanon, Hezbollah and Syria have combined to eliminate Maronite Christians and their western allies. In Bethlehem, the home of the Church of the Nativity, the former Christian majority has been reduced by Muslim extremists to less than 2 percent. In Nazareth, the radical Muslim mayor sought to build a mosque in the parking lot of the Church of the Annunciation (an effort halted by the Israeli government).

Taboo topic. The Turks have not handled their history very well. They closed state archives; they have punished people for raising the subject. This has cost them credibility. But how wise is it for Congress, at a particularly sensitive time, to get into the business of rewriting history with respect to crimes committed nearly a century ago by an empire that no longer exists? Few Americans would place the Armenian disaster on a list of pressing issues. Similar legislation has been defeated in the past, including in 2000 when Bill Clinton was president. Eight former secretaries of state, three former secretaries of defense, and Clinton have all come out against the congressional exercise in branding.

We need good relations with Turkey. We need the Incirlik Air Force Base in southeastern Turkey and passage through the Habur Gate on the Iraq border to supply our forces in Afghanistan and Iraq and, maybe one day, to withdraw those forces. Some 70 percent of our supplies, one third of our fuel, and all of our armored personnel carriers come through Turkey. And we already have one nasty little crisis brewing: The Turks are threatening to move into northern Iraq to deal with the Kurdistan Workers Party, a terrorist organization that recently crossed the border to murder nearly 30 soldiers, police officers, and civilians.

There is a lot at stake. Support for America by the Turkish public is down to only 11 percent, and right-wing nationalism and radical Islam within Turkey are reviving, inflamed by xenophobic comments from Europe's leaders unwilling to admit Turkey to the European Union. Turkey, let us not forget, is the only Muslim nation that has long been grounded in the West, has membership in NATO, and has bilateral ties to the United States. Now Turkey may seek alternative affiliations, either with its Islamic neighbors or with Russia, so we are on the verge of provoking an irreparable breach with this Muslim country and with the Muslim world, reinforcing those who believe that coexistence of western and Muslim countries is hopeless even for this western-oriented, secular Muslim democracy. Turkey is remarkable because it is secular even as it is Muslim; because it is western oriented yet attached to the Islamic world; because it is committed to democracy and economic reform under the leadership of an openly religious Muslim party. It is a bridge to cross the growing schism between the West and the Islamic world.

Modern Turkey must deal with the Armenian tragedy. A joint international commission with access to archives would be a good starting point—better at this time than an ill-considered resolution. We must find the restraint and wisdom to find a more appropriate time to address the issue of atrocities perpetrated by long-dead rulers of a long-defunct empire instead of beating up on modern Turkey, which did not exist at the time of the massacre. It's only a little more relevant than Muslims beating up on England for bad things done in the Crusades—or Europeans on the United States for its crimes against the American Indians.


The Lefties were for the Religion Of Peace. Now they are against it! :lmao:

preservanation
10-26-2007, 12:52 AM
This was just another example of the left sabotaging the war in Iraq. Plain and simple.
When the voters realize that the Dems are cheering against AMERICA, they might rethink their vote.

lily
10-26-2007, 01:01 AM
The Lefties were for the Religion Of Peace. Now they are against it! :lmao:


.....and Bush was for recognizing Armenian genocide, and now he's against it. (http://www.anca.org/press_releases/press_releases.php?prid=3)

Armenian National Committee of America
888 17th Street, NW, Suite 904, Washington, DC 20006
Tel. (202) 775-1918 * Fax. (202) 775-5648 * Email.anca@anca.org

PRESS RELEASE

For Immediate Release ~ 2000-02-20
Contact: Elizabeth Chouldjian ~ Tel: (202) 775-1918


GEORGE W. BUSH RECOGNIZES ARMENIAN GENOCIDE


Republican Candidate Calls on Americans to Remember and Acknowledge
"Facts and Lessons" of the "Genocidal Campaign" against the Armenians


Washington, DC -- In a powerfully worded letter to two of his leading
Armenian American supporters, Republican presidential hopeful Texas Governor
George Bush acknowledged the Armenian Genocide, called on Americans to join
with him in remembering the crime committed against the Armenian people, and
pledged as President to ensure that the United States properly recognizes
this terrible atrocity, reported the Armenian National Committee of America
(ANCA).

Governor Bush's letter, addressed to Michigan community activist Edgar
Hagopian and New York businessman Vasken Setrakian, who attended Harvard
with the Governor, also called for continued U.S. aid to Armenia, encouraged
a peaceful settlement of the Nagorno Karabagh conflict, and praised the
"tremendous contribution of the Armenian community to the United States."

"We welcome Governor Bush's principled stand on the Armenian Genocide
and join with him in calling upon all Americans to acknowledge both the
facts and lessons of this crime against humanity," said ANCA Executive
Director Aram Hamparian. "We would like, as well, to voice our community's
gratitude to Vasken Setrakian and Edgar Hagopian, both of whom have done so
much to share with Governor Bush the issues of pressing concern to our
community. We appreciate their leadership and value their contribution to
expanding the voice of Armenian Americans in the political process."

Governor Bush's rival for the Republican nomination, Arizona Senator
John McCain, has yet to speak out on Armenian issues. He has remained
silent, in particular, on the Armenian Genocide, despite having received an
unprecedented number of postcards from Armenian Americans as part of the
ANCA's million postcard campaign to leading presidential candidates -
including Governor Bush, Vice President Al Gore and former New Jersey
Senator Bill Bradley.

The two hundred thousand postcards addressed to Sen. McCain ask him to
explain his vote in 1990 against former Senator Bob Dole's Armenian Genocide
resolution and, more recently, his 1999 vote to lift the Section 907
restrictions on U.S. aid to Azerbaijan, despite Azerbaijan's failure to lift
its blockades of Armenia and Nagorno Karabagh. (For more information on the
ANCA postcard campaign, visit http://www.anca.org.)

In a September 1998 speech in the U.S. Senate, McCain attacked a
Congressionally approved ten million dollar aid package to the American
University of Armenia as an "objectionable program," and a "serious
diversion of scarce resources otherwise needed for truly worthy programs."
(For more information on this speech, visit
http://mccain.senate.gov/frop99ap.htm.)

Provided below is the full text of Governor Bush's letter.


#####

George W. Bush for President
February 19, 2000

Mr. Edgar Hagopian
Mr. Vasken Setrakian


Dear Edgar and Vasken,

Thank you for your inquiry to my campaign regarding issues of concern
to Armenian Americans.

The twentieth century was marred by wars of unimaginable brutality,
mass murder and genocide. History records that the Armenians were the first
people of the last century to have endured these cruelties. The Armenians
were subjected to a genocidal campaign that defies comprehension and
commands all decent people to remember and acknowledge the facts and lessons
of an awful crime in a century of bloody crimes against humanity. If elected
President, I would ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic
suffering of the Armenian people.
The Armenian diaspora and the emergence of an independent Republic of
Armenia stand as a testament to the resiliency of the Armenian people. In
this new century, the United States must actively support the independence
of all the nations of the Caucasus by promising the peaceful settlement of
regional disputes and the economic development of the region. American
assistance to Armenia to encourage the development of democracy, the rule of
law and a tolerant open society is vital. It has my full support.

I am encouraged by recent discussions between the governments of
Armenia and Azerbaijan. The United States should work actively to promote
peace in the region and should be willing to serve as a mediator. But
ultimately peace must be negotiated and sustained by the parties involved.
Lasting peace can come only from agreements they judge to be in their best
interests.

I appreciate the tremendous contribution of the Armenian community to
the United States. The Armenian community has been and will continue to be a
model of dedication to values of faith and family.

Sincerely,

[signed]
George W. Bush

HumanBeast
10-27-2007, 06:08 PM
Is this really an appropiate time to talk about mass death when trying to make friends with Western-friendly Muslims?

lily
10-27-2007, 09:47 PM
When would be a good time? I have a feeling if we ask Turkey, they are going to say never.

Pookie
10-28-2007, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I don't think Turkey would be too quick to jump on that bandwagon. If someone did that to us, we wouldn't be thrilled.
Purrs,

AlonzoMourning23
10-28-2007, 06:03 PM
When would be a good time? I have a feeling if we ask Turkey, they are going to say never.


I wouldn't do it now because I'd be insisting that Turkey not invade northern Iraq. Of course our government isn't doing that.

lily
10-28-2007, 09:16 PM
Zo....the Turkish/Kurdish history/hatred goes back a long way.....I don't think this is going to stop anything, just delay it or worse yet people will just forget it happened.

AlonzoMourning23
10-28-2007, 09:35 PM
I know the conflict goes back a long way. The problem is invading Kurdish Iraq is a current issue that could probably be avoided. It's not something that necessarily is going to pop up again 5 or 10 years from now.

lily
10-28-2007, 09:52 PM
It's not something that necessarily is going to pop up again 5 or 10 years from now.


You lost me.........which is not going to pop up? Another reason for Turkey to invade, or the genocide resolution? Either way, IMO, delaying it because they are going to start causing trouble in Iraq is just an excuse as was "we need their country to fight this war".

AlonzoMourning23
10-28-2007, 10:25 PM
Turkey to invade Iraq.

lily
10-28-2007, 10:43 PM
I don't see Turkey changing it's mind in another 5-10 years. Militarily speaking, I think it would be to their advantage to attack now. Not in our best interest, but it only makes sense.

Isn't a little bit of double speak for Bush to be saying that countries should root out terrorism where ever they find it, then refusing to let Turkey do it? Or really let's get down to brass tacks.........isn't this al-Maliki's territory?

AlonzoMourning23
10-28-2007, 10:46 PM
Isn't a little bit of double speak for Bush to be saying that countries should root out terrorism where ever they find it

If you really want to stick to that line then you going to have wars left and right. The most dangerous one will likely be between india and pakistan the next time a Pakistani militant blows up something in India, or a militant hits Kashmir.

I don't see Turkey changing it's mind in another 5-10 years. Militarily speaking, I think it would be to their advantage to attack now. Not in our best interest, but it only makes sense.

The issue involves Kurdish rebel groups that are uncontrolled. They may have the tools to do something about it over time.

tony mitra
10-29-2007, 12:37 AM
What has been most puzzling to many of us in this whole affair, is why on earth is that large, pot bellied poor flyer of a bird of north America, whose sole purpose of existence seems to have been reduced to the single act of being mass eaten at thanksgiving - share a common name with a nation halfway across the world, most of whom have never seen this bird, and for all I know, do not care for it at all.

Most puzzling!
:dizzy:

And regarding the subject heading, Democrats being Chicken about Turkey, are the Republicans the reverse, i.e. being Turkey about Chicken? Just asking.
:)

AlonzoMourning23
10-29-2007, 12:56 AM
Tony, I've found that turkeys are very entertaining. We've had wild turkeys return to my area about 8 or 9 years ago. I think they were reintroduced about 15 or 20 years ago. But it's so funny to see a group of turkeys sitting in the middle of the rode, refusing to move, and stopping traffic at a 3 way intersection for 5 minutes.

We see more and more every year. They're often by the side of the road, they often stop traffic, but everybody seems to like them. They're still get attention though since it's not a daily sight, and many kids haven't seen them at all. They're in the backyard sometimes but and every once in a while I'll be outside and a kid will see them and just stare. One time I was outside watering plants and a kid pointed and said, in an amazed voice, "Do you know you have a turkey in your yard?".

tony mitra
10-29-2007, 04:19 AM
Thats so cool, Zo ! Post some pictures of the birds.
I lived in the US for nearly 7 years before moving to Canada, and I did travel a lot visiting nature and wildlife sanctuaries, but cannot recollect seeing wild turkey any time anywhere. It was only after I came to Canada that I saw a few range turkeys (not exactly wild, but not caged either) as well as some bison (American buffalo). I had seen a few bald eagles in Florida, but only after I came here that I saw thousands of bald eagles, sometimes as many as twenty on a single tree.

I have some gorgeous pictures of them.

Cheers.
:)

AnnEsthesia
10-29-2007, 11:35 AM
Tony, I've found that turkeys are very entertaining. We've had wild turkeys return to my area about 8 or 9 years ago. I think they were reintroduced about 15 or 20 years ago. But it's so funny to see a group of turkeys sitting in the middle of the rode, refusing to move, and stopping traffic at a 3 way intersection for 5 minutes.

We see more and more every year. They're often by the side of the road, they often stop traffic, but everybody seems to like them. They're still get attention though since it's not a daily sight, and many kids haven't seen them at all. They're in the backyard sometimes but and every once in a while I'll be outside and a kid will see them and just stare. One time I was outside watering plants and a kid pointed and said, in an amazed voice, "Do you know you have a turkey in your yard?".


Oh god, we have those here and they do the same thing. They will just wander into traffic moving 40 miles an hour as if they are deaf and blind. Of course, that is not nearly as bad as seeing them flying across the road just in front of you. They barely get enough air to JUST miss your car and they are like a lead weight in the air. THAT scares me more! Imagine one of those coming at you through your windshield!

Wndrtch
10-29-2007, 05:17 PM
Is this really an appropiate time to talk about mass death when trying to make friends with Western-friendly Muslims?


Only if you're a Dem, desperate to do SOMETHING.

Elrathin
10-29-2007, 05:32 PM
Only if you're a Dem, desperate to do SOMETHING.


So when is it a good time to discuss it then? You obviously disaprove or talking about a country that was responsible for mass killings, so when is a good time to discuss it?

lily
10-29-2007, 11:50 PM
I had seen a few bald eagles in Florida, but only after I came here that I saw thousands of bald eagles, sometimes as many as twenty on a single tree.

I have some gorgeous pictures of them.

Cheers.
:)


I would love to see that!