democracy is...

[Athena]

I have asked for a forum on political philosophy because I don't know where to put post like this. Since this is the new forum, I am putting the post here and hope a better choice comes up.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barrier of race, religion, of circumstance." (General Report of the Seminar on "What Is Democracy?" Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

Here are "the ideals and procedures of democracy" promoted by public education as we moblized for the second world war, and quoted from the "Democracy Series" of text books used in public schools when we mobilized for war against the Christian German Republic.

1. Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.

2. Open opportunity for the individual.

3. Economic and social security.

4. The search for truth.

5. Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press.

6. Universal education.

7. The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.

8. Justice for the common man; trail by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.

9. Freedom of religion.

10. Respect for the rights of private property.

11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.

12. The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.

[Nitrus]

Why is this in the Poll Booth??

I am moving it to the Political Philosophy section.

[Athena]

Well thank you. I didn't see the political philosophy forum. I don't think many people go to history. Discussions here are not getting much attention, so I don't think political philosophy will do well here, but heck most people don't even know there is such a thing as political philosophy. They think politics is political parties competing against each other and dividing a nation. But since I am here, and the subject is democracy, I will say Socrates' philosophy is essential to democracy.

Socrates taught we can teach people to be good by training their conscience. That is what education in the US did until 1958, train the conscience. This is teaching the higher thinking skills such as logic and abstract thinking. We taught children progressively more difficult concepts, and their testing was testing for understanding of concepts, not correctly memorized facts. The facts were considered less important than the concepts. And when the focus was on concepts, the student could complete disagree with the teacher and still get credit for the answer providing the student understood the concept of the discussion. This is pretty important to the concept of liberty.

Nietzsche on the other hand was not a philosopher for democracy. Power politics are not democratic politics.

[Mayberry]

Very well said Athena. I don't agree with many of your views, but this one is right on the money. If the politicians would only heed this philosophy and go back to being Statesmen....:rolleyes:

[Athena]

Okay, people are looking and one commented, now can we begin discussing the philosophies involved?

I mentioned Socrates and Nietzsche. Basically Socrates said if people are exploited, sooner or later they will become a problem to those who exploit them. His idea of justice was to take the steps necessary to avoid problems.

On the other hand to over simplify Nietzsche, thinking about the other guy makes you and the other guy, soft and weak, and that is why Christianity is a bad idea. We should by like the animals that compete with each other for survival, to keep the human race strong.

Democracy is about one for all and all for one. Not only do we consider the other guy, but everyone of us is to make our best contribution for everyone else. Accepting welfare without making a social contribution is as bad as picking one's nose and eating the tasty morsels. Everyone, even the village idiot, has something to contribute, so let's fugure out how everyone can make a contribution and have a good life.

[Mayberry]

Everyone, even the village idiot, has something to contribute, so let's fugure out how everyone can make a contribution and have a good life. This is quite simple to implement. Simply cease all welfare, and those who can work will have no choice but to go to work. Those who cannot work due to physical or mental disability could then reapply for benefits. There is way too much fraud in the welfare systems to continue them in their current form.
Basically Socrates said if people are exploited, sooner or later they will become a problem to those who exploit them. How true. The American middle class has been exploited for decades. As the cost of living continues to spiral out of control, the middle class suffers the most, and soon it will reach a crescendo and, I believe, trigger a civil war. It may be a "cold war", consisting of removing a large number of senators and representatives from office on the state and federal levels, but it will be a war none the less. As quickly as this nation is spiraling down the commode, I hope the action starts soon.

[Athena]

The people of Athens, realized people who did not own land, but had to labor for others, did not have the time or energy to participate in politics, because their labor was too demanding. Remember instead of these laborers competing with machines for their jobs, they were competing with slaves for work so their situation was pretty bad. The people of Athens set out to resolve this problem by creating paid government work. This is how the new temple to Athena was built, and the university. Both of these attracted people to Athens and brought in a lot of money, and increased the business for everyone. Also some paid government work was created, such as managing the treasury. This example was used by Roosevelt when he established the New Deal.
Great government works were built. The University of Oregon library was one such project, and it is an awesome building. When the idea was to employ people, the building projects employed artist who added the extras that make a building monuments that benefit society for a very long time.

Okay, you now have all the power to create an ideal reality. It is your task to create all the jobs to employ all adult citizens. What jobs are you going to create? Please, the answer is not just cut welfare. The answer is creating living wage jobs. Now provide the explanation of how this is to be done.

[Mayberry]

The answer is creating living wage jobs. Now provide the explanation of how this is to be done. It is already done. I have never gone long without a job, and the only reason for any lapses at all were due to my pickiness. All one has to do is go online, or get a newspaper, or ask friends, relatives, acquaintances.... If you want a job, you can find one, and at a "living wage". Some people who have no drive or ambition, self respect, pride, whatever, may not be able to find a decent job, but that's not my problem, it's theirs. I don't want to give away my hard earned money to support these parasites, plain and simple.

[Athena]

The answer is creating living wage jobs. Now provide the explanation of how this is to be done. It is already done. I have never gone long without a job, and the only reason for any lapses at all were due to my pickiness. All one has to do is go online, or get a newspaper, or ask friends, relatives, acquaintances.... If you want a job, you can find one, and at a "living wage". Some people who have no drive or ambition, self respect, pride, whatever, may not be able to find a decent job, but that's not my problem, it's theirs. I don't want to give away my hard earned money to support these parasites, plain and simple.Â*Â*



Well your experience has not been my experience. I wonder why that is? Could it be our different qualifications, or prehaps have something to do with living in different places?

When I was 18 and living in Southern California, getting a job was as easy as walking into the employment and asking for one. A person could loose a job and have another one in days. Where I live now, the employment office was no help, and answering several ads in the Sunday newspaper, week after week resulted in a job only once. That was a low paid cleaning job. I always get cleaning jobs, but can't even get an interview for anything else and I have a college education and years of volunteer work experience.

Please, do not suggest I lack motivation or work ethic, because I know that is not in case. In fact, I moved from a small town to a city to get work. My point being, small towns do not have a lot of jobs. On top of this, I know people who just are not hired. Have you done much work with people with disabilities? How often do you speak with people who have trouble finding work? Have you ever tried to get a job with no home, no car, no phone? How did that go for you?

[Mayberry]

On top of this, I know people who just are not hired. Have you done much work with people with disabilities? How often do you speak with people who have trouble finding work? Have you ever tried to get a job with no home, no car, no phone? How did that go for you? Never worked with disabled. My career requires able bodied folks, it's a very physical outdoor job. I haven't met many people who had trouble finding work. They may not have the job they WANT, but they are employed. I've always had a home, car, etc.. and never knew anyone who didn't. If you are in a position where you don't have a car, home, etc... there are organizations (at least here there are) that will help you get cleaned up, decent clothes, use their address, phone, etc.. I really don't buy that as an excuse. I know a fella who lives in a rented RV for about $300 a month, has one of those pre paid cell phones, and an old beat up Chevy truck. He lives quite well on $1200 or so a month and is a happy guy. He's saving up to go back to school and always has his ear to the ground for a better job. You can change any situation you are in if you put your mind to it instead of laying around crying woe is me. Of course it gets a little more complicated when you have a family, but it can still be done. If there are no jobs where you are, it's time to move.

[Athena]

On top of this, I know people who just are not hired. Have you done much work with people with disabilities? How often do you speak with people who have trouble finding work? Have you ever tried to get a job with no home, no car, no phone? How did that go for you? Never worked with disabled. My career requires able bodied folks, it's a very physical outdoor job. I haven't met many people who had trouble finding work. They may not have the job they WANT, but they are employed. I've always had a home, car, etc.. and never knew anyone who didn't. If you are in a position where you don't have a car, home, etc... there are organizations (at least here there are) that will help you get cleaned up, decent clothes, use their address, phone, etc.. I really don't buy that as an excuse. I know a fella who lives in a rented RV for about $300 a month, has one of those pre paid cell phones, and an old beat up Chevy truck. He lives quite well on $1200 or so a month and is a happy guy. He's saving up to go back to school and always has his ear to the ground for a better job. You can change any situation you are in if you put your mind to it instead of laying around crying woe is me. Of course it gets a little more complicated when you have a family, but it can still be done. If there are no jobs where you are, it's time to move.


Mayberry, boy do you have a lot to learn.Â*Â*It is really funny that you think living on $1200 is a challenge.Â*Â*That is a lot of money!Â*Â*Let us take $500 out of his income for child support.Â*Â*How about turning this person into a woman with three children?Â*Â*How about, he is unemployed, running out of unemployment benefits and the problem he is he is 52 years old and has a bad back, and no one wants an old person.Â*Â*Change that reality.

Try this one- there is a recession and businesses have signs at the door announcing they are not taking applications. There are plenty of rentals and homes to buy because so many people have left town. Several businesses have closed their doors permanently. There is so much demand on charitable organizations they are running in the red, and can not possibly meet the need. To save the money, the state has cut assistence to two parent families, so the men are abandoning their families and moving to the hills so their wives and children can get help.
Men and women are living together without getting married, so the mothers and children can get assistance. And it takes 5 years professional shoe shining experience to get an Employment Office referral to a shoe shining job. A college degree with honors assures not getting a job, because no one wants to hire someone over qualified for a job, and the only jobs available are the bottom of the wrung jobs, because the wages too low to support the family.

[Mayberry]

Mayberry, boy do you have a lot to learn. It is really funny that you think living on $1200 is a challenge. That is a lot of money! Let us take $500 out of his income for child support. How about turning this person into a woman with three children? How about, he is unemployed, running out of unemployment benefits and the problem he is he is 52 years old and has a bad back, and no one wants an old person. Change that reality. $1200 is a lot? My mortgage on my modest home is $1000! As far as child support, that's his (or her) problem. Should have thought about that before having kids. For the 52 year old guy with the bad back, he should have had a stable career a long time ago, and he's probably on disability anyway. Had he made better choices long ago. The choices you make determines your future. As we said in the Navy, "choose your rate (job), choose your fate." Again, his problems are not mine. Perhaps he should find a different occupation. Wal Mart, Home Depot, etc.. are always hiring. Like I said before, it may not be the job you WANT, but it's a job. You may have to bring your standard of living down a notch or two, but you can still live. I have done this myself. I made $75k a year working at a power plant. The hours were long, I worked 900 hours of overtime the last year I was there. It was very stressful and taking a toll on myself and my family. So I downgraded my salary to a little less than half, but under much better working conditions and my wife took a job. We cut out a lot of unnecessary spending, I drive a 25 year old truck instead of a shiny new one, my job is only 2 miles from the house so I save a LOT of gas, no movies, eating out, etc... and we are now MUCH happier. We both work Mon- Fri 40 hours a week and have lots more time to do stuff together. So you see, your situation is what you make of it. I could go back to making oodles of money if I wanted to, but I'd have to move away from my little coastal paradise, and I ain't willing to do that right now, nor do I have to. Sure, money is tight, but we have a nice home, the lights are on, food in the fridge, etc.. We could live a lot better if taxes, etc. were lower, but that's the subject of another thread.

[dsanthony]

I have asked for a forum on political philosophy because I don't know where to put post like this.Â*Â*Since this is the new forum, I am putting the post here and hope a better choice comes up.

"Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barrier of race, religion, of circumstance."Â*Â*(General Report of the Seminar on "What Is Democracy?"Â*Â*Congress on Education for Democracy, August, 1939.)

Here are "the ideals and procedures of democracy" promoted by public education as we moblized for the second world war, and quoted from the "Democracy Series" of text books used in public schools when we mobilized for war against the Christian German Republic.

1.Â*Â*Respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human personality.

2.Â*Â*Open opportunity for the individual.

3.Â*Â*Economic and social security.

4.Â*Â*The search for truth.

5.Â*Â*Free discussion; freedom of speech; freedom of the press.

6.Â*Â*Universal education.

7.Â*Â*The rule of the majority; the rights of the minority; the honest ballot.

8.Â*Â*Justice for the common man; trail by jury; arbitration of disputes; orderly legal processes; freedom from search and seizure; right to petition.

9.Â*Â*Freedom of religion.

10. Respect for the rights of private property.

11. The practice of the fundamental social virtues.

12.Â*Â*The responsibility of the individual to participate in the duties of democracy.


I think it was HL Mencken who said that Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

Democracy has a short history. I think it will end one day because as the franchise has expanded to universal scope, the "dumbing down" of democracy has proceeded in kind. The only thing that has saved democracy in the US were the stringent guidelines sent up by the founding fathers... but those walls will be overrun one day by the Jerry Springer mob.

[Athena]

Mayberry,

The unemployed people's problems are yours.Â*Â*You talk as though you have an answer for everything, but you are not coming up with good answers for the common cases of the unemployed.Â*Â* Assigning blame and explaining why people have their problems isn't the solution.Â*Â*Tell me what jobs these people can have and how much they will get paid, not about your own life.Â*Â* If you were the major or a legislator, you would have to think how human needs will be met and the state will gain revenues. We are suppose to be self governing, so do some thinking about someone besides yourself.

[BoogyMan]

Mayberry,

The unemployed people's problems are yours.Â*Â*You talk as though you have an answer for everything, but you are not coming up with good answers for the common cases of the unemployed.Â*Â* Assigning blame and explaining why people have their problems isn't the solution.Â*Â*Provide solutions.Â*Â*


Here we go again, a demand for a solution that has already been provided and ignored. Athena, personal responsibility IS the solution. How is it that Mayberry has responsibility for the unemployed? Explain that.

[Mayberry]

Tell me what jobs these people can have and how much they will get paid http://jobs.caller.com/ If you were the major or a legislator, you would have to think how human needs will be met and the state will gain revenues. We are suppose to be self governing, so do some thinking about someone besides yourself. The human needs will be met by people WORKING for MONEY to provide for THEMSELVES. The state will therefore gain revenues from these WORKING people BUYING things. We are "self governing" (sort of) and in my thinking about others, I have decided to cast my votes for people who think like me, so I won't have to worry about anyone else, because I will be secure in the knowledge that these folks are fending for themselves. Any questions?

[Athena]

Tell me what jobs these people can have and how much they will get paid http://jobs.caller.com/ If you were the major or a legislator, you would have to think how human needs will be met and the state will gain revenues. We are suppose to be self governing, so do some thinking about someone besides yourself. The human needs will be met by people WORKING for MONEY to provide for THEMSELVES. The state will therefore gain revenues from these WORKING people BUYING things. We are "self governing" (sort of) and in my thinking about others, I have decided to cast my votes for people who think like me, so I won't have to worry about anyone else, because I will be secure in the knowledge that these folks are fending for themselves. Any questions?


Yes, who is providing the jobs?Â*Â*

One more question, what do you read?

[Mayberry]

Yes, who is providing the jobs? I thought I answered that quite clearly by providing the link to the classified ads. One more question, what do you read? Mostly The works of Patrick O'Brien. Brilliant seafaring novelist. I also read a lot on the internet, about a wide variety of subjects. How about you?

[Athena]

Mayberry,

The unemployed people's problems are yours.Â*Â*You talk as though you have an answer for everything, but you are not coming up with good answers for the common cases of the unemployed.Â*Â* Assigning blame and explaining why people have their problems isn't the solution.Â*Â*Provide solutions.Â*Â*


Here we go again, a demand for a solution that has already been provided and ignored.Â*Â*Athena, personal responsibility IS the solution.Â*Â*How is it that Mayberry has responsibility for the unemployed?Â*Â*Explain that.



Okay, let us try this. There are 5000 people looking for work and 100 jobs. So what responsible action should the 4,900 people for whom there is no job take?

What is required for industry?

What is required for service jobs?

[Athena]

Yes, who is providing the jobs? I thought I answered that quite clearly by providing the link to the classified ads. One more question, what do you read? Mostly The works of Patrick O'Brien. Brilliant seafaring novelist. I also read a lot on the internet, about a wide variety of subjects. How about you?


Oh my goodness sake :D:D:D, how old are you? Classified ads do not provide jobs. Industrialist, government, and service providers provide jobs. Where I live the bases of the economy was built on agriculture and timber. What is the bases of the economy where you live?

[Athena]

Mayberry,

The unemployed people's problems are yours.Â*Â*You talk as though you have an answer for everything, but you are not coming up with good answers for the common cases of the unemployed.Â*Â* Assigning blame and explaining why people have their problems isn't the solution.Â*Â*Provide solutions.Â*Â*


Here we go again, a demand for a solution that has already been provided and ignored.Â*Â*Athena, personal responsibility IS the solution.Â*Â*How is it that Mayberry has responsibility for the unemployed?Â*Â*Explain that.



I love your question, because answering it has increased my awareness of the difference between democracy and autocracy.Â*Â*

We are self governing people, that is how we become responsible of the decisions that effect all of us.Â*Â*Now if we lived under a king or dictator, we would only be responsible for ourselves and that responsibility would be very limited.Â*Â*

Like if we lived under the pharaoh, or the Mayan ruler, or Chinese Emperor everything becomes the responsibility of these rulers, and the only thing the masses need to know is the form of worship for their country, and prehaps a trade.Â*Â*They need to nothing of how a city is organized, or about commerce or industry or anything to do with economics.Â*Â*But we know these things, because we have self government, and understand it is important for us to understand such things.Â*Â* We value holding this responsibility for our cities and nation, and this is why we go to war, so everyone can have democracy and this responsibility.Â*Â*

[Mayberry]

So what responsible action should the 4,900 people for whom there is no job take? Look elsewhere for a job. Classified ads do not provide jobs. Industrialist, government, and service providers provide jobs. Yes, and these people ADVERTISE those jobs in classified ads, online, etc.. Did you not look at the link I provided? What is the bases of the economy where you live? Petroleum, natural gas, agriculture, ranching, fishing/tourism and the Navy base/ Army Depot (aviation). You live in an area with limited industry Where I live the bases of the economy was built on agriculture and timber. I live in an area with more diverse industry. Therfore there are more opportunities, and apparently higher wages. If this is what you desire, then I suggest you relocate. We are self governing people, that is how we become responsible of the decisions that effect all of us. Now if we lived under a king or dictator, we would only be responsible for ourselves and that responsibility would be very limited.

Like if we lived under the pharaoh, or the Mayan ruler, or Chinese Emperor everything becomes the responsibility of these rulers, and the only thing the masses need to know is the form of worship for their country, and prehaps a trade. They need to nothing of how a city is organized, or about commerce or industry or anything to do with economics. But we know these things, because we have self government, and understand it is important for us to understand such things. We value holding this responsibility for our cities and nation, and this is why we go to war, so everyone can have democracy and this responsibility. None of this has anything to do with me having to feed bums. Sorry, don't see it.

[kanyon40]

My wife got pregnant at age 15. She was married by 16 and divorced by 17. She dropped out of school at age 15 to have her daughter and lived in such conditions as having no windows or heat and having to go days without eating so her daughter could eat. By what would have been her senior year in high school, she was sick of that life style so she got herself into a college. She got into college when she should have been in high school still and to this day she doesn't have a high school diploma or GED. The reason she even got in was because they felt bad for her situation.

My wife decided to make the most of it. 4 years later, she graduated at the top of her class, having only gotten 1 B and all the rest A's the entire year. All the while she did this, she was raising a child on her own with no money. After graduating, she decided to work for a while and did everything from working on a radio station to becoming the station news correspondent to the capital for a television station in her home state.

After a brief break from school, she decided that she needed to better herself further, still lacking a high school education, despite her college degree. She went and got herself into law school. She worked her way through law school, all the while being a single parent with no money. She found her way onto law review, and even got herself an internship at the 3rd largest law firm in her state.

When I met her, she was finishing up law school, still a single mother without a high school education, and still with no money. She was living off of student loans in order to buy clothes for her daughter.

Now we are married, she is a lawyer, and she even landed herself a legal advice column in the local paper (which wasn't a posted job, but she just decided to start sending them columns and they just decided to print them). She also has firms in 2 cities where we live begging her to work there but she has chosen to work from home so she can spend time with her family. Finally she has a real living and some money to provide for her daughter, but she still has no high school education.

The point is, if a 17 year old single mother with no high school education or money can accomplish all of that while raising a beautiful, intelligent, and very happy daughter; then what is anyone else's excuse why they can't find something to do with their lives? Life isn't about opportunity knocking on your door, you have to go out and search for it.

[Mayberry]

A thought occurred to me, one that I have presented before, but not quite in this way. Athena, since you seem such a scholar on the subject of democracy, please tell, what was the cause of the ultimate demise of the ancient democracies? My understanding is that they were undermined by socialism, which lead to their inevitable demise. My premise is this: Pride is the driver of a successful venture. Pride is derived from self accomplishment. No one can argue that accomplishing a difficult task with one's own resources brings a sense of immense personal satisfaction and achievement, pride in essence. When people become dependent on others for their well being, that personal satisfaction, their pride, is eroded, ultimately to the point that the person becomes apathetic, and lazy. Laziness is arguably the worst of all possible human conditions. When society by and large becomes lazy and apathetic, society will crumble. The few who are left producing the necessities of life are burdened beyond sustainability. That being the case, I firmly believe that pride in self reliance is the driver of a successful democracy, that which cannot be sustained by a socialist society. Therefore, to sum it up, welfare will lead to the ultimate demise of the United States, just as it ended the ancient democracies.

[Mayberry]

I see Athena couldn't formulate a rebuttal to this one. It's hard to refute the truth, ain't it?

[Athena]

A thought occurred to me, one that I have presented before, but not quite in this way. Athena, since you seem such a scholar on the subject of democracy, please tell, what was the cause of the ultimate demise of the ancient democracies? My understanding is that they were undermined by socialism, which lead to their inevitable demise. My premise is this: Pride is the driver of a successful venture. Pride is derived from self accomplishment. No one can argue that accomplishing a difficult task with one's own resources brings a sense of immense personal satisfaction and achievement, pride in essence. When people become dependent on others for their well being, that personal satisfaction, their pride, is eroded, ultimately to the point that the person becomes apathetic, and lazy. Laziness is arguably the worst of all possible human conditions. When society by and large becomes lazy and apathetic, society will crumble. The few who are left producing the necessities of life are burdened beyond sustainability. That being the case, I firmly believe that pride in self reliance is the driver of a successful democracy, that which cannot be sustained by a socialist society. Therefore, to sum it up, welfare will lead to the ultimate demise of the United States, just as it ended the ancient democracies.


We have a high tech society that is not labor intensive. That means, most the work is done by energy sources such as electricity and fossil fuels, and machines. What to be done by 50 people can be done by 3 people and machines, and these 3 people can produce far more than what is needed. I don't think you have a good grasp of reality. We arre no longer an labor intense, industrial economy. The problem in Rome was not machines but slaves. When either machines or slaves do the work, it isn't necessary to pay laborors a decent wage.

What past civilization was socialist? Please, if you know the details of the fall of any civilization provide them, and name the civilization.

A national workers compensation program, national medical insurance and national pension plan made Germany so strong, all modern industrial nations adopted these social problems, eccept the US still has not adopted a national medical insurance, and boy, are people getting screwed. Medical cost sky rocketed with private insurance plans, and now people are loosing those private insurance plans or must pay a huge price for them. Businesses have gone belly up or are in danger of doing so, and want to cut those medical insurance plans, sometimes leaving retired people is serious trouble. Perfection is hard to achieve, and I don't know a good arguement for not having a national medical plan when other nations do, and our companies and workers are competing with them for world markets. Whatever, social programs made Germany very strong, so other modern countries imitated what Germany was doing. Do you want to argue that?

[Mayberry]

I don't think you have a good grasp of reality. We arre no longer an labor intense, industrial economy. It is you who doesn't have the grasp. An industrial economy is NOT labor intense. That's where the INDUSTRIALIZED part comes in. INDUSTRY is the machines. When either machines or slaves do the work, it isn't necessary to pay laborors a decent wage. Well slaves don't earn wages, so they don't count. When machines do the work, you need SKILLED labor to build the machines, to operate the machines, and to repair the machines. Good paying, highly skilled jobs. What past civilization was socialist? I didn't say there was. I said my understanding was they were undermined by socialism (read "welfare") Medical cost sky rocketed with private insurance plans Noooo. Medical costs skyrocketed because lazy people found they could make a quick buck by suing everyone in sight, sending malpractice premiums through the roof. Government regulation and interference doesn't help either. Nor does the burden of being forced to treat bums. Remember, folks used to pay the doctor in chickens. We've always had private insurance in this country, which was quite affordable until recently. Try again. I don't know a good arguement for not having a national medical plan when other nations do, I do. I DON"T WANT TO PAY FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S MEDICAL BILLS!!!!!! What don't you get. You want socialism, MOVE TO A SOCIALIST COUNTRY!!! America is NOT socialist (yet). social programs made Germany very strong, so other modern countries imitated what Germany was doing. Do you want to argue that?
For someone who is always bashing German "education for science...." you seem to take up for them an awful lot. Yes, I'll argue that. What made Germany strong was FEAR. Period. You went with the program or you went in the oven. When everyone is united (by fear or by choice) to a common goal, you get a strong nation. Like we used to be before welfare.

[Athena]

I don't think you have a good grasp of reality. We arre no longer an labor intense, industrial economy. It is you who doesn't have the grasp. An industrial economy is NOT labor intense. That's where the INDUSTRIALIZED part comes in. INDUSTRY is the machines. When either machines or slaves do the work, it isn't necessary to pay laborors a decent wage. Well slaves don't earn wages, so they don't count. When machines do the work, you need SKILLED labor to build the machines, to operate the machines, and to repair the machines. Good paying, highly skilled jobs. What past civilization was socialist? I didn't say there was. I said my understanding was they were undermined by socialism (read "welfare") Medical cost sky rocketed with private insurance plans Noooo. Medical costs skyrocketed because lazy people found they could make a quick buck by suing everyone in sight, sending malpractice premiums through the roof. Government regulation and interference doesn't help either. Nor does the burden of being forced to treat bums. Remember, folks used to pay the doctor in chickens. We've always had private insurance in this country, which was quite affordable until recently. Try again. I don't know a good arguement for not having a national medical plan when other nations do, I do. I DON"T WANT TO PAY FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S MEDICAL BILLS!!!!!! What don't you get. You want socialism, MOVE TO A SOCIALIST COUNTRY!!! America is NOT socialist (yet). social programs made Germany very strong, so other modern countries imitated what Germany was doing. Do you want to argue that?
For someone who is always bashing German "education for science...." you seem to take up for them an awful lot. Yes, I'll argue that. What made Germany strong was FEAR. Period. You went with the program or you went in the oven. When everyone is united (by fear or by choice) to a common goal, you get a strong nation. Like we used to be before welfare.



In Education for Democracy, I provided some quotes the better explain the strength of Germany and why other nations, including the US imitated Germany. The Germans were far from fearful people. They were just like the citizens of the US today, good Christian people wanting to believe their nation was the best and doing the right things.
They had every reasons to be very proud of themselves, especially as they were being prepared for the second world war. People in many countries thought fascism was the solution to economic trouble, because they began doing better than any other industrialized when the economy of all these countries collapsed. No, it was not fear that made Germany strong, but the education- not for science, but technology for military and industrial purpose, and the bureaucratic and social organization.

There is an important difference between education for science and education for technology. It is not just a knowledge, but a knowledge for military and industrial purpose and a social organization that manifest a society like the Borg. The education for this technological society, goes with the bureacratic organization that originated as Prussia military bureacracy applied to citizens. This bureaucratic functions is just as important as the educational one.

We need to discussion this bureaucratic organization, because even if the US threw every weapon in the ocean, it would still be under military organization. When I grew up, the US was organized by family order, and this no longer true. The difference in social order is a great as the difference between Sparta and Athens. The US is not the democracy it was when it entered the second world world. Its organization and values are completely changed, and this is manifest both through education and bureacratic structure.

[Athena]

I missed the solution for the hypothetical 4,900 unemployed people. Your solution lacks important values of home, family and community. When the only thing people value are material things, I think the civiliations is doomed and will fall. Some families live where there they live to be near other family members. For example my son chose not move to another town with his son, because he thought it important his son close his mother and grandparents, and cousins. My family provides a strong support system for every other member in the family, that is far better than dependancy on government for assistance.

During the 1970 recession, this area was hit very hard and many people did move away. This not only tore a lot of families apart, but it worsened the economic problem. Property values crashed and the only buyers were Califorians buying for investment reasons, and the ramifications of this were harsh. People with rentals dependent on having renters to make payments, were in a world of hurt, because the renters moved away. Business went belly up as people moved away and those who stayed didn't have discretionary cash.

Now when business picks up and the laborer market is short, wages go up, and this cuts into business profits. New Industries aren't going to move into a town that doesn't have a good unemployment rate. We need those 4,900 unemployed to keep wages down and attract new industry.

[Athena]

"Yes, and these people ADVERTISE those jobs in classified ads, online, etc.. Did you not look at the link I provided?"

You are missing the point. The classified ads do not produce jobs, and a job seeker dependent on the classifies ads is in trouble. Actually when seeking jobs we should have good resume's and a specific job goal. We should know all the employers in town and what positions they have. Your library should have book providing this information. Then you need to seek out the employer with the position you want, prepared with as much information about the company as you can get.

But all that isn't the point either. What is the towns economic bases? What is its ability to accommendate industry?

And I have to laugh at your insistance that industry isn't labor intense. You are so young, you don't remember when industry was labor intense. However, you have made a good point. A concept I fully understand because of the huge job losses when our lumber mills retooled, putting in machines that ended many jobs. Most industry is not as labor intense was it once was, and this presents a problem. We are shifting to a service economy and a service economy does not generate the revenue of an industrial economy.

"I didn't say there was. I said my understanding was they were undermined by socialism (read "welfare")" Again, which civilization was so undermined? Or how about this, why was the welfare necessary in the first place? Rome was torn apart by this employment problem, literally! Its military leaders brought in wealth, but then they wanted thier soldiers to have a share of that wealth, and they turned on Rome to get their share of that wealth. This is way over simplified, as war also brought in slave labor and the slaves did the work, people without property needed. And many soldiers had been land owners, but lost their lands while they were off to war.

If slaves or machines take you jobs, there are unemployed people needing those jobs. Slaves and machines need maintainance, and your attempt to argue this point by saying slaves don't earn wages is irrational. The job isn't open for the citizen needing the job. Period

[Athena]

"I do. I DON"T WANT TO PAY FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S MEDICAL BILLS!!!!!! What don't you get. You want socialism, MOVE TO A SOCIALIST COUNTRY!!! America is NOT socialist (yet)."

I think this arguement began with saying democracy is about everyone's welfare.Â*Â*It is one for all and all for one.Â*Â*And when people become self centered and stop caring about others, civilizations fall.Â*Â*

Human begins need medical care and since this is a need we share in common, we might consider how this need will be met.Â*Â*You seem to be under the impression that you benefit by not having a national medical insurance although all other advanced industrial countries do.Â*Â*Can we examine your assumption?Â*Â*Right now this subject is in the news.Â*Â*Major companies are going bankrupt and want to cut there medical and retirement benefits.Â*Â*Some companies did, and now the government is passing laws, requiring companies to fully fund the pension plans, which include medical insurance, and this will likely reduce the number of companies that offer medical and retirement benefits, increasing dependency on government funded programs.Â*Â*

As long as humans need medical care, there will be a need to pay the bill. We just need to determine the best way to do this.Â*Â*If we are all are to be completely dependent on our own personal earnings for all our medical expenses and retirement, how much should minimum be, to be a just wage, covering the basic cost of living?Â*Â* Isn't sort of suicidal to work for less? How responsible would parents be if they agreed to work for less than the what it cost to provide basic needs for their families? What do you think would happen to our economy if everyone earned a wage that fully covered all basic needs? How just is it asking anyone to work for less?

If there were no medical insurance, what do you think this would do to medical cost?Â*Â*Personally, I am okay with returning to the days when my family had no medical insurance.Â*Â*Just outlaw all medical insurance, so the cost is returned to the controls of demand and supply, when everyone is paying out of pocket for all medical needs.Â*Â*Simp;e right? Instead of trying to achieve justice socialized medicine, we just elemenate all medical insurance. Are you okay with that?

Now allow homeless people to sleep in our door ways and on the skirts of town, as is the case in third world countries, and accept beggars on our streets, so those who can not work because of medical reasons, can beg on our streets until they can resolve their medical problem.Â*Â*I am honest to God, okay with this.Â*Â*Are you?Â*Â*

[Mayberry]

You are missing the point. The classified ads do not produce jobs, and a job seeker dependent on the classifies ads is in trouble. They did for me. I've gotten 3 jobs from classified ads, and my current jon was advertised online. What is the towns economic bases? What is its ability to accommendate industry? I already told you. Petroleum, natural gas, agriculture, ranching, fishing/tourism and the Navy base/ Army Depot (aviation). If you're in a town with no jobs/industry, move to one that does. They won't come to you. In a perfect world, no one would have to move, but this world is obviously far from perfect. And I have to laugh at your insistance that industry isn't labor intense. You are so young, you don't remember when industry was labor intense. No I don't remember it, but I understand how it used to be. Factory workers were subjected to unsafe environments, long hours with no breaks, unsanitary conditions, low wages, tyrannical management, and no benefits. Then came along the unions, who vastly improved life for blue collar workers. Life was good. But then, the unions and workers got greedy and ran the industry out of the United States. Companies had to cut costs, and a lot of workers were replaced with machinery that is much cheaper than union wages. So it seems, our own labor force is partially responsible for the lack of manufacturing in the US. Our government is responsible for the loss of the rest with things like excessive regulation and taxation of industry. Again, which civilization was so undermined? Or how about this, why was the welfare necessary in the first place? You're the ancient history buff, you tell me. All I said was that it was my UNDERSTANDING that the fall of Rome, Athens, etc... could be contributed to welfare, at least in part. If slaves or machines take you jobs, there are unemployed people needing those jobs. Slaves and machines need maintainance, and your attempt to argue this point by saying slaves don't earn wages is irrational. The job isn't open for the citizen needing the job. Period Since slavery is no longer an issue, it has no relevance anyway. Machines take jobs because they are cheaper and much faster than labor. Also many jobs performed by machine are inherently dangerous, repetitive, or mundane. Do you want to put the sticker on every apple that comes down the line? Or how about being a "beer bottle cap screwer- oner". What a great job that would be! Or how about crawling through a pipeline to inspect it? Or maybe digging 100 miles of trench with a shovel is your cup of tea. How responsible would parents be if they agreed to work for less than the what it cost to provide basic needs for their families? There are hundreds of thousands of parents who do this every day. Is that my problem? No. What do you think would happen to our economy if everyone earned a wage that fully covered all basic needs? How just is it asking anyone to work for less? I think the economy would collapse, because that level of earning for EVERYONE in this country would probably exceed the GNP. We would also lapse into communism (which is basically what you are suggesting) because there would be no incentive to succeed. No one is asked to work for less than a living wage, they choose to do so. Even if you start out at $5.15 at McDonald's, and spend your entire career there, if you are worth your salt, you'll work hard and seek promotion to Assistant Manager. After a time, and with good performance, you can become a manager. After being a successful manager, then you can move up to District Manager. And who knows, maybe if you're a successful District Manager, you'll be promoted to an executive position. It's possible, it's been done before. So you started out at $5.15, and 20 years later you're making $150,000.00. That's how it's supposed to work. You work your way up from the bottom. Somewhere in between, you have your family, not like nowadays where the kids have babies in high school, don't get married, never get a real job, and end up on welfare for the rest of their pathetic lives. So now you see, they've made their bed, so they can lie in it. As for someone who's been "downsized", laid off, etc.; find a new job. It's not that hard. As I've said before, you may not get the job you want, but you can find a job. They're out there. If there were no medical insurance, what do you think this would do to medical cost? Probably nothing. Might go down a little. Just outlaw all medical insurance, so the cost is returned to the controls of demand and supply, when everyone is paying out of pocket for all medical needs. Simp;e right? Instead of trying to achieve justice socialized medicine, we just elemenate all medical insurance. Are you okay with that? I will always have medical insurance for my family. I won't take a job that doesn't provide it. If you want to reduce medical costs, stop suing doctors every time something doesn't go perfectly, get the government's nose out of medicine, it doesn't belong there, and stop welfare. The cost of welfare to the medical system is tremendous. Now allow homeless people to sleep in our door ways and on the skirts of town, Not on my doorway, that's trespassing. Outskirts of town is o.k.

[Athena]

I think the economy would collapse, because that level of earning for EVERYONE in this country would probably exceed the GNP. We would also lapse into communism (which is basically what you are suggesting) because there would be no incentive to succeed. No one is asked to work for less than a living wage, they choose to do so. Even if you start out at $5.15 at McDonald's, and spend your entire career there, if you are worth your salt, you'll work hard and seek promotion to Assistant Manager. After a time, and with good performance, you can become a manager. After being a successful manager, then you can move up to District Manager. And who knows, maybe if you're a successful District Manager, you'll be promoted to an executive position. It's possible, it's been done before. So you started out at $5.15, and 20 years later you're making $150,000.00. That's how it's supposed to work. You work your way up from the bottom. Somewhere in between, you have your family, not like nowadays where the kids have babies in high school, don't get married, never get a real job, and end up on welfare for the rest of their pathetic lives. So now you see, they've made their bed, so they can lie in it. As for someone who's been "downsized", laid off, etc.; find a new job. It's not that hard. As I've said before, you may not get the job you want, but you can find a job. They're out there.

Okay, how many jobs are there at the top? How many at the bottom? It is possible there are fewer people at the top, because there are fewer positions at the top, and being below the top is not because a person is lazy, or undeserving, but because there just isn't enough room at the top for everyone? Actually my daughter did the fast food ladder climbing. It isn't so great. But that is beside the point. My point is, we need people at the bottom and you agreed we can't give everyone the wage they deserve for economic reasons. But we want a just society and to avoid social problems, so how do we achieve these goals? And please, be a problem solver, and stop the drop the cliches you use to take the place of thinking. Saying poor people are lazy people, or "They've made their bed so they can lie in it", is repeating cliches, not stating economic facts. The purpose of discussion in a democracy is to get to at the truth and resolve the problems. That is what makes being a citizen of a democracy such an exciting thing.

[Athena]

"I will always have medical insurance for my family. I won't take a job that doesn't provide it. If you want to reduce medical costs, stop suing doctors every time something doesn't go perfectly, get the government's nose out of medicine, it doesn't belong there, and stop welfare. The cost of welfare to the medical system is tremendous."

If you will not take a job that doesn't provide medical insurance, why shouldn't it be law that all employers must provide medical insurance? No cliches, okay. Think this one through as you think a math problem through. What would happen if it were law that all employers provide medical insurance?

[Athena]

You're the ancient history buff, you tell me. All I said was that it was my UNDERSTANDING that the fall of Rome, Athens, etc... could be contributed to welfare, at least in part.

It appears not many people are willing to debate with me, so I admire for continuing to do make the effort. If we continue for another 6 months, you will be excellent debater. You will learn to not make statements are not prepared to defended. You said socialism caused civilizations to fall in the past. You did not mention Rome or Athens and this is a good thing. The only ancient socialistic state I can think of was Sparta and it was very strong.

Rome had a very serious problem because there were not enough jobs for all those who needed jobs. Maybe if we both become more familiar with the history Rome, we could have some meaningful debate about if the fall of Rome could have been prevented. I don't know that much about the fall of Rome, except it wasn't a big empire for that long! One dude expanded Rome into east; Ceasar went north, and Rome fell soon after this expansion. The generals were coming back and demanding a share a the wealth, and warring with Rome itself. This is nuts! Romans destroyed Rome in power struggles. I don't know so many people say it was people on welfare who destroyed Rome. Forget the welfare, just take a sword and kill everyone until you get what you want. Hum, that idea didn't work real well.

[Athena]

Now allow homeless people to sleep in our door ways and on the skirts of town.

Not on my doorway, that's trespassing. Outskirts of town is o.k.

Okay, we got an agreement!:D I wonder if anyone wants to argue against allowing the homeless to camp on the outskirts of town?

Now is this area to be completely lawless, or should some laws be imposed? If there are to be laws, how will they be enforced? Do we allow everyone to build themselves shelters? Are these regulated or not?
Is water and sewage provided? What happens if it is not? How about cooking, does there need to be any regulation for the protection of health and prevention of fire?

These people need to be clean when looking for work. Should any provision be made for their cleanliness? How about a telephone? It is very hard to get a call from an employer without a phone, so do we want to make a phone available for people seeking work? And want about transportation? Considering the connection between employment and transportation, should employment be supported with a transportation system?

[Mayberry]

But we want a just society and to avoid social problems, so how do we achieve these goals? And please, be a problem solver, and stop the drop the cliches you use to take the place of thinking. It is not my problem to solve. But o.k., you want a solution? Here it is.

1. Slam the borders closed. No more immigration. Since there are so many needy Americans, apparently there is no more room for immigrants here.

2. Abolish labor unions. They've gotten too greedy. Assembly line workers, etc., have no business making $30 an hour. Though this one goes against my grain, as a Libertarian I think you should be able to join a union if you want to.

3. Severely limit imports. Like it or not (I can already hear the flak from this one) imports take away American jobs by the score.

4. Rescind all taxes on American businesses. Want higher pay for workers? They would get a 30% raise immediately if there were no payroll taxes. Businesses don't really pay taxes anyway, the customer does through higher prices caused by taxes.

5. Abolish Social Security/ Medicare. Another huge governmental disaster that costs me a large portion of my wages every month, for which I will likely never see any benefit. This keeps more money in the worker's pockets, to provide those necessities for their families.

6. Enact the Fair Tax. Lookey here! Now you get to keep your ENTIRE paycheck! How about that? On a salary of say, $2000 a month, you've now got an extra $300 a month in your pocket now! Oh, yeah. The states with income taxes need to go to a consumption tax as well. Now we only pay tax when we purchase NEW items. So "poor" families can avoid paying any tax at all by buying used items.

O.K., so now we've created a lot of jobs in construction, renovation, and manufacturing because we have to get our manufacturing infastructure going again, and then man those manufacturing plants. We've significantly lowered the effective poverty level by abolishing all of those oppressive taxes, and encouraged saving money for American families with those tax abolishments, and by switching to a consumption tax. And you know what? The world will be a little greener, because people won't buy so much crap just to throw it away. Recycling has just become the way to go. Why buy a $300 table, when a $30 garage sale table and $15 worth of sandpaper and paint will look just as nice? And you saved $90 in sales tax (assuming an average tax rate of 30%), which you can put into a nice interest bearing account to save for the future.

[Mayberry]

If you will not take a job that doesn't provide medical insurance, why shouldn't it be law that all employers must provide medical insurance? Because half the small businesses in this country will go bankrupt. Like I said, the medical system is broken, but socialized medicine ain't the answer. You note the European countries with socialized this and socialized that, and look at the tax rates in those countries. It's horrendous! link (http://www.finfacts.com/Private/tax/taxationeuropeanunion25.htm) Nearly half your salary is gone before you even see it. I sure as hell don't want that. I've already stated what needs to happen to fix health care. Medicare/ medicaid being the models of success they are, government has no place in health care.

[Athena]

If you will not take a job that doesn't provide medical insurance, why shouldn't it be law that all employers must provide medical insurance? Because half the small businesses in this country will go bankrupt. Like I said, the medical system is broken, but socialized medicine ain't the answer. You note the European countries with socialized this and socialized that, and look at the tax rates in those countries. It's horrendous! link (http://www.finfacts.com/Private/tax/taxationeuropeanunion25.htm) Nearly half your salary is gone before you even see it. I sure as hell don't want that. I've already stated what needs to happen to fix health care. Medicare/ medicaid being the models of success they are, government has no place in health care.


What in heavens name is wrong with medicare? I mean I think this is perhaps a person's point of view. Is it better to let people die of treatable disease, or leave people to rot in bed when an operation could mean they could walk and enjoy life? Just how much human suffering are you willing to tolerate?

Right off your words hit me as the words of many Americans. Doesn't what you said strike as very materialistic and a little short of human values? Is it you pitted against the world? A world that could destroy your physical abilities as soon as your luck runs out or old age catches up with you. I think of what I speak is outside your consciousness, or perhaps your point of view would be different? The ideal world you speak of is great for young, healthy people and a wealthy nation, but not all of humanity.

Let us reduce the world to one family. There are 6 children in this family. All but one child is healthy, and that one child has cerebal palsy.
The child's mind is fully alert and active, but the child has no muscle control and therefore can do nothing for himself, not even speak. There is a grandmother in this home. Now what happens at dinner time? Discribe to me how everyone behaves when it is time to eat. Is it, each out for himself, or do people here demonstrate care about each other?

[Mayberry]

What in heavens name is wrong with medicare? What is NOT wrong with Medicare? My money is stolen and redistributed to people who didn't have enough forethought to provide for their own future. So now, I am forced to pay for medical care for illigitimate children and old folks who failed to plan for retirement. This is money I could be investing for my own retirement, but can't, which will require ME to be on Medicare, perpetuating the problem. Don't you see, it is a viscious cycle that will never end. Right off your words hit me as the words of many Americans. Doesn't what you said strike as very materialistic and a little short of human values? The only humans I value are my family and friends. Everyone else can fend for themselves, I can't afford to take care of everyone, and if I could, I still wouldn't. Is it you pitted against the world? Essentially, yes. Let us reduce the world to one family. The world IS my family. I take care of MY family. Period. My family is much different than everyone else. Why do you insist that I must take care of everyone else? There are people out there willing to do this. Good for them, so long as it is done with charitable donation, as it was in the past, not with tax payer's money. Money the government has stolen from me to use for all these welfare programs that I don't want. So in today's bleeding heart society, yes, it is me against the world. Fortunately, I am not the only one who feels this way, and hopefully there will be some major changes in the next few elections.

[Athena]

:D Mayberry, you really out did yourself on that list of solutions, but you also remind me of my friend who believes technocracy is the solution to all our economic problems. Some changes may improve things, but we aren't likely to ideal world people hope these changes will makes.

We have effective doubled the average family income and the revenue of levels of government where income taxes are paid, by including women in the work force. However, this has not doubled the standard of living for families, because more money meant doubling the cost of living, and now a single person can not provide a middle class standard of living for a family, unless the union succeeding in getting $30 and medical and retirement benefits. Who is being greedy here when it is the cost of living that doubled? My point is, just increasing the amount of money in people's hands, does not equal more discretionary money.

I really wish I could post the pictures from a 1916 book titled "Poverty and Riches", by Scott Nearing, Ph.D. One is this arrogant looking king sitting on a throne, with pathetic humans at his feet. I really like the picture of a man sitting at a sewing machine and vampire sucking out his blood, symbolizing human labor and industry consuming the life of the laboror, leaving nothing for the laboror and his family. The ideal of Democracy is to be equals. Not that we all are the same and each has much as another, but when it comes to making decisions, the power is distributed and none have the power to exploit another. We seriously need to expell the autocratic model for industry and replace it with the democratic model. Then neither unions nor government control of industry are necessary.

Our country is like a big family and closing our borders and restricting our trade, may improve some things, but in other ways we would be hurt. The richest places in the world have always been those with the most trade, so I am not sure restricting trade is a good idea. And those foriegners? Gosh this is difficult-

If we have human values, how can we turn our backs on our fellow humans? Sure like a family, you can't let everyone in the community come for dinner every night, as this will hurt the family, but what if the dinner were a pot luck and everyone brought something? Now we are back to, how do produce and distribute what we have? How bad is the world if the whole of humanity were as one big family? Must we spend our weath on military might? Is this the best way to share this planet?
What are the laws of nature that guide our decisions? Isn't there something harmful in "me first and to hell with you"? If nothing else, doesn't this reduce our ability to think by reducing what need to think about, OURSELVES. Democracy is thinking about everyone, not just ourselves. How do we share this planet with our neighbors? With brute force and intelligence? Democracy demands a degree of thinking far beyond what other system demands. Not only must we think about how to resolve a problem, but also the consequences of this action.

Are you sure the consequences of your solutions will get the best results?

[Athena]

I will repeat, when Athens became a democracy it determined to provide jobs for non propertied people who had no means to support themselves other than to sell their labor. They used public funds aquired during the Persian wars by getting other Greek city/states to pay Athens tribute for defense services, to build a new temple to Athena and a university, hoping this would bring in tourest and university students. They also created some government paid positions, such as people to manage the projects and the funds. This made their economy boom, but they got into trouble when the other city/states didn't want to pay tribute any more, and this lead to the fall of Athens, because they stupidly tried to use force to get tribute.

Any way, you suggested how to cut spending assuming this would more discritionary money rather not higher cost they keep everyone just as broke. But exactly what is your industry? Your industry needs water, electricity, roads- who is paying for making sure industry has this? Your industry needs mineral and chemical resources, where will these resources come from? Your industry needs markets, who is going to assure your markets?

[Mayberry]

Mayberry, you really out did yourself on that list of solutions Why thank you! They used public funds aquired during the Persian wars by getting other Greek city/states to pay Athens tribute for defense services, to build a new temple to Athena and a university, hoping this would bring in tourest and university students. They also created some government paid positions, such as people to manage the projects and the funds. This made their economy boom, but they got into trouble when the other city/states didn't want to pay tribute any more, and this lead to the fall of Athens, because they stupidly tried to use force to get tribute. That has a familiar ring to it. Our economy boomed following WW II. The government wants an ever increasing piece of the pie, soon the cities/ states will tire of paying this "tribute", which is indeed taken by force (IRS), and America as we know it will cease to exist, hopefully for the better. But exactly what is your industry? Your industry needs water, electricity, roads- who is paying for making sure industry has this? Your industry needs mineral and chemical resources, where will these resources come from? Your industry needs markets, who is going to assure your markets? America has the capability of fulfilling it's own needs, sans oil of course. All the markets, etc. that were there before could be again as they were in the '50s and '60s. That time period is what we need to go back to, economically. There are your answers, in the history books.

[Athena]

Now this is looking like real discussion. I am going to have roll up my sleeves and get down to some serious mental work.

One reason the US economy has done well in times of war, is we supplied the allies with essentials like food. This was great for farmers and the annumition plants. The city built around the ship makers in Washington was really something! People moved from all over the country to the ship yards, with the most modern housing and public services in the country. This depopulated many inland Oregon, towns where the weather is harsh and farming was hard. Life was much better in the ship yard town.

There was a big fear that the economy would collapse and return to the Great Depression conditions when the war was over, but thanks to a lot of government help, and mainly the GI Bill, our economy boomed. Hello, I hate to tell you, but that great economic boom was government supported. Man, those were the golden years! The Great Depression generation had it made once the war was over. GI's got help buying homes, and that caused a building boom which also caused an huge increase in appliance sells as eveyone needed stoves, refrigerators, TV's and furnature. The advertizements for electricity and appliances were quiont. I remember the urban sprawl in Southern Calif.. What was mountain to mountain orange orchards, became mountain to mountain ticky tackies (houses) and shopping centers to accommendate this new urban life style, and freeways that took people in and out of suburbs to the work city, increasing the demand for cars and all related services.

Even when it was time for me to get a job, a person could loose a job, walk into the employment and walk out with a choice of jobs and be back to work the next working day. No resume, no hassel, just say you want the job and it was yours. Yes, it was a good time, but it was also government supported.

What really set off the economy was the GI Bill and all the GI's who went to college just as new technologies were coming on the scene. My mother was paid to learn how to be a key punch operator, punching cards for the first practical business computers which were huge! My Dad was the first to develop moving X Ray and shifted from medical X rays to X Raying bridges, then to nuclear waste storage and then to working on the Apollo that went to the moon. Even as he neared 80 years of age, he has been called to consult on the development of Star Wars weapons. His generation got in the front door and created the technology that it now takes years of specialized education and good competitive skills to get into.

The job market this generation came into, is nothing like today's job market! I don't want to kill this communication with too many words, but sadly Mayberry, we will never return to want we had, unless maybe the country collapsed so badly it had to rebuild from scratch. Soemthing very bad has happened to us since the 1950's to today. Just about everything I say is about this change. Keep talking because we are moving closer together. We have our disagreements, but I am starting to think we can some very healthy agreement.

[Athena]

Ah yes, Mayberry. Actually, I didn't quit think of of the economic boom or Athens and the US post WWII as being similiar, but now that you mention it.:) Yeah, what would happen if the supposedly soveriegn states stopped paying tribute and said to heck with your New World Order, we are going to take care of our own. Waking this idea up in me, makes my think I love you. This is the kind of agreement I almost hold my breath, wanting. This has huge social ramifications, now if you would just move a little closer to family and neighborhood values, heck, we could come so close to agreeing, we could run out of things to argue about.

[Mayberry]

but thanks to a lot of government help, and mainly the GI Bill, our economy boomed. Hello, I hate to tell you, but that great economic boom was government supported. The GI bill is a well deserved benefit for our military, not a government handout. GI's got help buying homes Again, another well deserved benefit to the military. This has huge social ramifications, now if you would just move a little closer to family and neighborhood values, heck, we could come so close to agreeing, we could run out of things to argue about. I have nothing but family values. I help out my immediate neighbors (not monetarily, of course). And I sincerely doubt you and I would ever run out of things to argue about.:P

[Athena]

:P When I was a kid we used to say sticking your tongue out at someone meant "kiss me quick and don't slobber. :D

Okay let is go with family values. It is not just your personal values and your personal family at issue here. I was speaking with an older women who is aware of how radically the US has changed, since WWII. She began explaining to me why a woman who had worked for the museum for many, many years quit. This is just one case of a woman with past values quiting, so please interpret this as a story of social change, not just the story of one woman.

I think was during the Reagan administration when all at once good folk would were doing excellent jobs, were displaced by these bureaucrats from hell! Here were women who were history. They knew everything about their towns and the people who lived there and where to get help. These were receptionist, who not only knew everything about their towns, but also the organization they worked for and related services. These women could help anyone who came to their desk, or tell them where to get help. A far cry from today's receptionist who know nothing and can do nothing. They can't even relate to another human being, but function like robots within the narrow definition of their job, and couldn't resolve a problem if their lives depended on it.

Anyway in come these college educated bureaucrats from hell, and tell these women they are not to answer any questions, except to direct people to the right bureuacrat. I say they are from hell, because they defend this policy of bureacratic organization as though their lives depend on it. Women, just a little older than myself, left their jobs that they had held for many years. They could not tolerate this hiarchy of authority, and not one person in the US should be tolerating it. This is autocracy and what we defended our democracy against.

What I am talking about impacts our understanding of family values as well. Old schools taught, our democracy depends on strong families. Our whole society was built on family order and a very different sense of family values!!! I was the ideal woman. I was a full time homemaker, and community volunteer. I remember vividly when I went from the ideal woman to "just a housewife". Please, family values today are nothing as they were. And we no longer organized by family order, under Uncle Sam, but are now organized by Prussian military order applied to citizen, and our President thought it smart to dress in military clothes and call himself a war President. We are no longer the equals we once were, but operate under a hiarchy of authority and think this is superior and more effecient, than the democracy we defended in two world wars.

There are concepts and information in what I said, that is not familiar to others, so I don't know how well this communication will work. I think I could use some help trying to convey the values and difference in human relationships, and the difference in our own sense of importance.
Like how dare some college up start take over like a tyrant. Can anyone relate to what I am saying?

[Mayberry]

Our whole society was built on family order and a very different sense of family values!!! I don't know what's different from what I've been talking about. My immediate family comes first, above anything else, then my extended family, then my friends. Sounds like good old fashioned family values to me. As far as bureaucrats, they've always been around, and will only become more numerous as government continues to grow at it's ever increasing pace. Sad but true. And as far as jobs being narrowly defined, I don't know where you've been working, but every job I've ever had has wanted me to do everything, all at once. Currently I am a mechanical electrician painter landscapeing fiberglass pipefitter construction water plant operating half ass biologist truck driving boat captain fish farmer. (I think I covered it all)

[Athena]

Our whole society was built on family order and a very different sense of family values!!! I don't know what's different from what I've been talking about. My immediate family comes first, above anything else, then my extended family, then my friends. Sounds like good old fashioned family values to me. As far as bureaucrats, they've always been around, and will only become more numerous as government continues to grow at it's ever increasing pace. Sad but true. And as far as jobs being narrowly defined, I don't know where you've been working, but every job I've ever had has wanted me to do everything, all at once. Currently I am a mechanical electrician painter landscapeing fiberglass pipefitter construction water plant operating half ass biologist truck driving boat captain fish farmer. (I think I covered it all)

[Athena]

Are you using personal experience or some source of information other than your personal experience? For which level of government do you work, federal, state, county or city? Unless you work for the federal government, what state, country or city determines how you do your job? This information is helpful in understanding why we do not have agreement.

You know, like the blind men lead to an elephant and each told to touch a different part of the elephant and then discribe the animal. One is holding a leg and thinks this thing is as a tree. Another holds the trunk and thinks it is as a snake and so on. When all we know is small peice of the greater whole, there is disagreement.

[Mayberry]

Are you using personal experience or some source of information other than your personal experience? I use a combination of personal experience, experience of friends and family, and other sources of information which I have deemed to be impartial and reliable. Like any intelligent person does. For which level of government do you work, federal, state, county or city? I work for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. The State of Texas. Whatever that has to do with anything. When all we know is small piece of the greater whole, there is disagreement. I see the big picture, just not the way you do. I have my reasons for believing in what I believe in, and they are founded on what I have learned in the last 33 years. I know, not a lot of time, but I'm a little smarter than the average bear and I can make rational decisions.

[Athena]

I work for the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. The State of Texas. Whatever that has to do with anything.

This is not the federal government.Â*Â*

I don't think I want to continue this discussion any further, because I sense you are feeling a need to defend yourself, and I don't think you anyone else who has joined the forums so far gives a damn about the information I am providing.Â*Â*Some days I can deal with this and some
days I just can't.Â*Â*I am not here to argue, or to challenge people, but to provide information vital to liberty, or in other subjects, important to peace and the economy that goes with peace.Â*Â*I want to stop human suffering, not increase it.

There has been a serious change in public education and how the federal and some state bureaucracies are organized, and this has strong social ramificastions, if you don't want to believe that, so be it.

[Mayberry]

I don't think you anyone else who has joined the forums so far gives a damn about the information I am providing. It's not that I don't give a damn, it's just that you insist that We've all been brainwashed since 1958, and you're the only one who's right. I've given you rational explanations for my views and how I came by them. I'm no one's puppet, I think, speak, and act for myself. If you don't buy that I can formulate rational thoughts based on my own research and experience, then I suppose you are the one with the problem. I'm not defending myself, I have no need to. I'm just trying to get you to see MY point of view, just as you are trying to get me to see YOURS.

[Athena]

I don't think you anyone else who has joined the forums so far gives a damn about the information I am providing. It's not that I don't give a damn, it's just that you insist that We've all been brainwashed since 1958, and you're the only one who's right. I've given you rational explanations for my views and how I came by them. I'm no one's puppet, I think, speak, and act for myself. If you don't buy that I can formulate rational thoughts based on my own research and experience, then I suppose you are the one with the problem. I'm not defending myself, I have no need to. I'm just trying to get you to see MY point of view, just as you are trying to get me to see YOURS.


Excuse me, I am not the only one who is right, but evidently the only one who has read the books and is informed. You have not done the research. I see no vidence at all to believe you know anything at all about how bureaucracies are organized and controlled, and how that has changed over a period of time. Can you perhaps name a book you have read on the subject? Or if you worked for the federal government, you would have an experience that could apply this subject, but you don't work for the federal government. Your rational is not based on information, but lack of it. You have neither the experience nor the book learning to be informed about the changes in the federal government, and because of your education, you don't know what you don't know, nor the difference between being informed or not informed.
You plug into your little part world, and think this the whole world.

Your point of view and my point of view are both limited points of view.Â*Â*This does not mean either one of us is wrong, as long as we dealing within the small realm of what we know.Â*Â*However, once step beyond the realm of our limited lives and start imposing what believe is true and what believe should be done, on others, we need more than our individual points of view.Â*Â*What makes democracy better than autocracy is it includes all points of view in the decision making process.Â*Â*This is very time consuming, and it is not we are doing today, but the pool of intelligence for governing, is much greater when it includes everyone's points of view.Â*Â*

Democracy includes all points of view in the decision making process.Â*Â*No action should be taken without the consent of the people.Â*Â*

There has been a significant change in the organization of federal bureaucracies, and you can not argue against this without information about the organization of federal bureaucracies.Â*Â*This change is vital to our liberty and freedom and the problem is not that you are arguing from your point of view, but you are arguing without getting information.Â*Â*There are excellent reasons for the changes that began with Roosevelt, when he asked Hoover to organize how the federal government does things.Â*Â*At this point the change was more of improvement than a problem, but today the change has metamorphised into a huge problem.

There are books on the subject.Â*Â*You can ignore the truth of what I am saying or stop the ignorance by choosing to be informed.Â*Â*Until you are informed, asking questions if better than arguing.Â*Â*If anyone truly cared about politics and understood the ramifications of the changes in education and bureaucracy, they would at least ask questions and seek information.Â*Â* I don't know why people are posting, but is not to increase their awareness of economic and political reality.Â*Â*For the sexist opinion that men better suited for politics.Â*Â*They get involved with the discussions, but this means nothing if they do not also desire knowledge.Â*Â*Why do men engage in these discussions while at the same time they refuse to take the steps to be better informed?Â*Â*Why?Â*Â*What is the point?

[Rider]

Athena wrote- Excuse me, I am not the only one who is right, but evidently the only one who has read the books and is informed. You have not done the research. I see no vidence at all to believe you know anything at all about how bureaucracies are organized and controlled, and how that has changed over a period of time. Can you perhaps name a book you have read on the subject?
Athena, there's a hell of a lot more to being informed than just reading books. Books are ideas and opinions written down by mere mortals, not bits of wisdom from God. It's hard to have lived as an adult for twenty or so years and not know a thing or two about bureaucracies and how they operate.

Athena wrote- Democracy includes all points of view in the decision making process.Â*Â*No action should be taken without the consent of the people.Â*Â*
No. Democracy is all about the majority's point of view and nothing else. That's why our wise founders established a constitutional republic.

Athena wrote- You can ignore the truth of what I am saying or stop the ignorance by choosing to be informed.Â*Â*Until you are informed, asking questions if better than arguing.Â*Â*If anyone truly cared about politics and understood the ramifications of the changes in education and bureaucracy, they would at least ask questions and seek information.Â*Â* I don't know why people are posting, but is not to increase their awareness of economic and political reality.Â*Â*For the sexist opinion that men better suited for politics.Â*Â*They get involved with the discussions, but this means nothing if they do not also desire knowledge.Â*Â*Why do men engage in these discussions while at the same time they refuse to take the steps to be better informed?Â*Â*Why?Â*Â*What is the point?
If you don't stop this, you'll never be able to find a hat large enough to get on that swelled head of yours. Who the heck are you to judge who cares about politics or understanding the ramifications of anything? And it seems to me that you do a whole lot more lecturing than querying yourself.

[Mayberry]

I see no vidence at all to believe you know anything at all about how bureaucracies are organized and controlled, and how that has changed over a period of time. I was in the ultimate bureaucracy, the US Navy. I've got a fair notion of how they (dys)function. Personally, I'd rather see all bureaucracies eliminated. What a complete waste of time, effort, and resources. I've seen them get worse over time as well. I've seen them go from having at least a slight notion of their actual function, to having a complete disregard for it. And again, you insinuate that I am uneducated because I haven't committed the classics to memory. In this world of bureaucracy, I have no time to do such things. I've got to work 60 hours a week to keep things going, so forgive me for not knowing every thing there is to know about Cicero and the gang. What I do know is, that this country has strayed way off course, and if you ask me, it's due to apathy and ignorance of a large portion of the population who can't or won't see how the politicians are screwing us at every turn. The politicians running the bureaucracies you say I know nothing about. I can see what's going on. I may not have a degree in political science, but it doesn't take a scientist to see what's happening.

[Athena]

Mayberry, I am so thankful for your comments about the change in the bureaucracy and pointing out that this change began with the armed serveices. Now this thread is finally on the subject I want to discuss.
This bureaucratic order is destroying our democracy, and this has come about gradually since the second world war.

Instead of going into an attack on me, Mayberry, attack that which we must attack if we are to save our democracy. I am sooo aware of people being poorly informed because they are working their asses off just to have food and shelter. God, this makes us so easily controlled, because most of us don't have time to think about anything, not even when our nation is taken into a war. Instead of being angry with me, how about the reality that we are normally so busy with our lives, when we invaded Iraq, extreme few people had the time to research why we were in this war.

You all are attacking me, but I am not your enemy. The enemy is what WWII has done to our nation, and did to Athens and Rome and the Aztecs. When those who love power get control of a civilization and become detached from the people, the nation becomes an evil and is destroyed. Previous presidents would not have put military clothing and proudly claimed to be war presidents, as Bush did. In the past, the people of the US would not have tolerated a Hitler like leader, leading us into war. I am not the enemy. I am here to increase awareness of the enemy that is within, and awareness of the democracy we were before WWII. We have imitated Germany in education and changed bureaucratic order, and Bush's New World Order was Hitlers New World Order, and this New World Order is about military bureaucracy applied to citizens, and military domination of the world. Have any of you looked the Project for the New American Century? Education prepared the young for this New World Order and changed our national values. This is not the democracy we were.

[Athena]

I don't think you anyone else who has joined the forums so far gives a damn about the information I am providing. It's not that I don't give a damn, it's just that you insist that We've all been brainwashed since 1958, and you're the only one who's right. I've given you rational explanations for my views and how I came by them. I'm no one's puppet, I think, speak, and act for myself. If you don't buy that I can formulate rational thoughts based on my own research and experience, then I suppose you are the one with the problem. I'm not defending myself, I have no need to. I'm just trying to get you to see MY point of view, just as you are trying to get me to see YOURS.


Why are you so angry with me for saying what we have done to public education, the minds of students, and therefore, the whole of our democracy? Wouldn't it be more rational to look into what I am saying and determine if I am telling the truth or am lying to everyone? Why be angry with me? When a popular communator annouced teachers shouldn't have to waste time on poor students, I began researching the history of public education, because I knew when we educated for citizenship, there wasn't one student not worth a teacher's time. I was in school when the 1958 was implimented and my teachers were in shocked. I knew we imitated Germany because of the book "Connections", so studied both the history of education and Germany. I am not telling people these things to have arguments. I am telling you these things to save our democracy if that is possible.

[Mayberry]

Why are you so angry with me for saying what we have done to public education, the minds of students, and therefore, the whole of our democracy? I am not angry with you. All I am doing is trying to answer your questions, and make counter-points. If I came off as angry, I apologize. I AM angry at the way this country is going down the tubes. I think I know what you mean about education, removal of patriotism, the Pledge of Allegiance, etc.. What I was trying to get across is that not EVERYONE falls for the lies and "adjusted facts" presented as education today. I didn't when I was in school. I often got in trouble for challenging something that was in a text book. I am a WW II buff, and several facts were twisted in our history texts. I shudder to think what drivel is being shoved down their throats nowadays. I will teach my kids right, and inform them of the truth when they've been misinformed. I keep an eye on what's going on with my kid's education. Hopefully I'm not alone.

[Athena]

Okay, I think we are making progress.Â*Â*Expand on what is wrong with military bureaucracy.

Our present federal bureaucratic problem, begins with the Prussians who lived for a love of military might.Â*Â*When they took control of Germany, they applied their military bureaucracy to citizens.Â*Â*This bureaucracy is what makes things like Social Security possible, and the result is a mechanical society and a war machine like that of Sparta.

We could not manage nation wide bureaucracy without it.Â*Â*Our problem is everyone understands the good of this more effecient model, but not the bad.Â*Â*Also everyone is taking this bureaucracy for granted and can not image another way of doing this.Â*Â*

We stood against a hierachy of authority.Â*Â*Military bureaucracy is a hierarchy of authority.Â*Â*Democracy is empowering the most people to give their best, but the military model takes all power away from people.Â*Â*The power is concentrated at the top where policy is written.
When a modern bureaucracy is established, every job is defined, just as in the military the higher ups define the task of the enlisted men, who are told they are government property and have no personal power.Â*Â*Now instead of us being highly valued individuals, a whole building of bureaucrats can be blown to hell, and life goes on as though nothing happened.Â*Â*Oh people might be emotional distrot and take their grief fear and out in revenge on people in a different country that they know nothing about, but our every day lives go on unchanged, because we have all become replaceable.Â*Â* Military bureaucracy is designed to take major losses and keep on going, like a swarm of ants.Â*Â*We stood against this, and fought wars to protect our democracy from this, but are now proud to be what defended our democracy against.Â*Â*Today we think the pride of being American is this power.Â*Â*

Jesus said, you know not what power is.Â*Â*

PS, if don't know enough about the past, or of other cultures, to make a comparison, you do not know the bigger picture. Your picture is only 33 years big and geographically what- the size of the city you life in? I am not saying this well, and feel very frustrated with myself for not having better words, but you are highly intelligent and I believe once you grasp what I am trying to say, these forums are going to be the best forums of any on the Internet.

[Athena]

"Books are ideas and opinions written down by mere mortals, not bits of wisdom from God".

Oh really? Are you sure about that? How do we know of God? To whom does God speak? The answer to these questions has everything to do with democracy.

[Athena]

"It's hard to have lived as an adult for twenty or so years and not know a thing or two about bureaucracies and how they operate".

Good maybe you can do a much better job of explaining how modern technology has greatly increased the power of the bureaucracy above us, because I am doing a piss poor of job of explaining this.

[Athena]

"No. Democracy is all about the majority's point of view and nothing else. That's why our wise founders established a constitutional republic".

Where did you learn this? Did you get this understanding of democracy by becoming literate in Greek and Roman classics? If not, what makes you think you hold the correct understanding of democracy?

[Athena]

"And it seems to me that you do a whole lot more lecturing than querying yourself". Rider

It would be delighted if people were better informed and I was learning from them. God knows I don't know that much. Have you heard, "the more we learn, the more we know what we don't know". This is very humbling. My head is not swelling, because I know enough to know how much I don't know.

Do you care to explain why you care about politics?

I care because I will soon be dead, and I will not be here to protect my family. If younger people do not have the literacracy to understand democracy, and if they if do not have knowledge of history, the US will continue down the path of the New World Order and the democracy for which I am willing to live and die will be forgotten. I want my children and their children to have the goodness of the democracy that the US once was. That is why I care about politics. Your turn, why do you care? I read books, to learn more. What do you do to learn more? Isn't learning away to express caring? And if it is, what is getting pissed and rejecting learning?

[Mayberry]

Expand on what is wrong with military bureaucracy.
but the military model takes all power away from people. The power is concentrated at the top where policy is written.
When a modern bureaucracy is established, every job is defined, just as in the military the higher ups define the task of the enlisted men, who are told they are government property and have no personal power. You said it, in a nutshell. This is the inherent problem with a juggernaut government such as ours. I completely understand that concept. Our forfathers originally intended for the federal government to exist solely for the common defense of the states, to provide a loose guideline for those states, and to collect revenue for those purposes. The states in turn were basically set up to do the same for local governments, who were to provide the day to day services required by the local population, essentially peacekeeping. Simple, cheap, efficient. Freedom in a nutshell. Now our federal government micromanages virtually every aspect of our daily lives. Completely unconstitutional in my book. This totalitarian government has also bred, and fosters power hungry individuals who wish to impose their every whim on the people. They fuel their desires by raping the American people out of trillions of their hard earned dollars every year and squandering those dollars on all sorts of ridiculous projects, programs, etc.. designed to keep their supporters happy enough to re-elect them so that they may continue their pillaging at leisure. Exactly what we fought against in the Revolutionary War. Excessive government control and taxation. I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated my firm grasp of the concept you are trying to put forth, haven't I?
Now as far as some of my viewpoints on different subjects that differ from yours, maybe you can now see that I base these beliefs on the ideal situation that would exist today had the Constitution not been utterly destroyed over the last couple hundred years. Most of those issues would be non-issues. We would never have gone into Iraq because our military was for defense only. There would be no welfare because the free enterprise system would have taken care of things. We wouldn't be squabbling over so many "national issues" because the local governments would be able to fine tune things to the local population, keeping most folks happy. We would be a happier, healthier, wealthier nation, and the rest of the world would still be pi$$ed off at us because we wouldn't wipe their noses for them. But it wouldn't matter, because we'd still be independent and mostly self sustaining, I believe.

[Athena]

Expand on what is wrong with military bureaucracy.
but the military model takes all power away from people.Â*Â*The power is concentrated at the top where policy is written.
When a modern bureaucracy is established, every job is defined, just as in the military the higher ups define the task of the enlisted men, who are told they are government property and have no personal power. You said it, in a nutshell. This is the inherent problem with a juggernaut government such as ours. I completely understand that concept. Our forfathers originally intended for the federal government to exist solely for the common defense of the states, to provide a loose guideline for those states, and to collect revenue for those purposes. The states in turn were basically set up to do the same for local governments, who were to provide the day to day services required by the local population, essentially peacekeeping. Simple, cheap, efficient. Freedom in a nutshell. Now our federal government micromanages virtually every aspect of our daily lives. Completely unconstitutional in my book. This totalitarian government has also bred, and fosters power hungry individuals who wish to impose their every whim on the people. They fuel their desires by raping the American people out of trillions of their hard earned dollars every year and squandering those dollars on all sorts of ridiculous projects, programs, etc.. designed to keep their supporters happy enough to re-elect them so that they may continue their pillaging at leisure. Exactly what we fought against in the Revolutionary War. Excessive government control and taxation. I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated my firm grasp of the concept you are trying to put forth, haven't I?
Â*Â* Now as far as some of my viewpoints on different subjects that differ from yours, maybe you can now see that I base these beliefs on the ideal situation that would exist today had the Constitution not been utterly destroyed over the last couple hundred years. Most of those issues would be non-issues. We would never have gone into Iraq because our military was for defense only. There would be no welfare because the free enterprise system would have taken care of things. We wouldn't be squabbling over so many "national issues" because the local governments would be able to fine tune things to the local population, keeping most folks happy. We would be a happier, healthier, wealthier nation, and the rest of the world would still be pi$$ed off at us because we wouldn't wipe their noses for them. But it wouldn't matter, because we'd still be independent and mostly self sustaining, I believe.


We are making progress, but considering the owner of these forums is allowing derogatory ethnic slurs, I may not be contributing to the owners ability to capitalize on an immoral capitalistic feature much longer. I want to make the world a better place, not contribute to the pain and suffering of others. What is moral increases the good. What is immoral increases the bad. Tolerating ethnic slurs increases the bad, making this capitistic feature, immoral.

The increased power of government, is in part education and in part the technological for this powerful government. I think it is important that we understand the organization of this power, and how it might be organized differently.

"There would be no welfare because the free enterprise system would have taken care of things". This is not possible. It is not possible for many reasons. One of the simplists reasons it is not possible, is it cost more to build low income housing, than can be realized in revenue. That is after the land is purchased, and the building materials, and the labor, etc. the housing would have to charge more than low income families can pay.

The first area of noticable trouble was in medical care. Low income people can not afford medical care. What kind of civilized society neglects to care of its own? Do you think our country would be better if we neglected the needy? Are you okay with our country being as undeveloped countries with people dying on our streets?

Much more was done by women, and far less was done by government, before women were "liberated". I cared for my children, volunteered in the school and community, created programs for children and ran them with my own money, cared for my grandmother as Alzheimers disease took her mind and cared for my mother as ALS destroyed her nerves and muscels. Most of it I could do because a hushand supported me. However, when we liberated women, my X and many others, walked away leaving their wives with the children, and without the work expereince essential to getting good paying jobs so they could support their families without assistance. The same thing happened in the USSR when the communist declared, "a full time homemaker is a non productive member of society". The divorce and abortion rate soared and increasingly women and children fell below the poverty level. The gross national product goes up with this increased labor supply, but the quality of life goes down. Now we must pay someone to do all the things women did for free, and we are relying on the government for child care, the care of our elderly, the correction of juvinile delinquints, mental health programs, and more. How do you want to resolve this?

I have my preferences, but right now I am stopping at naming some of the problems. You can provide the solutions.

[firefox]

I say democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting over what to eat for dinner!