Did Moses exist?

[Athena]

While reading the bible, I began to wonder if there is any proof of Moses, so I tried google to see what I could find.

Proof of Moses Story is just a Fiction. This book offers a new understanding of God's image, and also investigates God's influences in our lives and in the Creation of the Universe.
www.thetruthshall.com/MosesStory.htm - 44k - Cached - Similar pages

Moses story is the most important story in the bible. It is the story that shows the power of God. It shows how God can force his commands and nothing can oppose his will. In Moses Story man received the Ten Commandments which has influenced our laws and has given direction to our morality.

There have been numerous research and archeological commissions, dedicated mainly on scientifically finding and verifying the historical evidence of this famous Story. Unfortunately so far none of those efforts could produce a single proof supporting the Moses Story.

[Alonzo]

There's no evidence for him, exodus etc. One theory holds that, over decades or centuries, various groups emigrated to the holy land. Over time the history of the peoples journeys merged. Moses may have been one of the leaders of such group, may have truly lead a major group, or may be just the result of combining various stories over time.

[kanyon40]

Ummm, anyone who would go on record saying that the Moses story is the most important in the bible has no business commenting on the bible. The most important story of the bible is the story of Jesus Christ. That is why we (we meaning those who actually are Christians, not we as in everyone on this forum) are Christians, not Mosesans (if that word works).

[Athena]

Ummm, anyone who would go on record saying that the Moses story is the most important in the bible has no business commenting on the bible.Â*Â*The most important story of the bible is the story of Jesus Christ.Â*Â*That is why we (we meaning those who actually are Christians, not we as in everyone on this forum)Â*Â*are Christians, not Mosesans (if that word works).Â*Â*


Well without Moses there is no Judism and without Judism there is no Christianity. However, the Quakers would still have religion, because they basically reject the old testament and focus on the teachings of Jesus. I would be okay with this if it weren't for the reason of being born in sin and needing a God/human sacrifice. That part of the Jesus story really turns me off. Well counting the demons coming out of people's bodies, is also turn off. Like this demonology from the east doesn't make a religion appealing to me. Any way how do you think the religion would exist without Moses?

[kanyon40]

Moses didn't found religion. Moses was one of God's workers. If Moses was the beginning, then why does the bible begin way before him? We start in eden. And for a large part of Genesis, Abraham (the actual father of Judaism) is the central character. Then it passes to his son and his son's son (Jacob, also called Israel, which, you might notice, is the name of the nation of God's people). Since the story turns to Jacob (Israel) and establishes the line of Israel before Moses, not to mention the encounters with God of the Patriarchs before Moses' time, then how could Moses be responsible for the Jewish faith? Moses isn't even mentioned until Exodus, and then his role is specific- to lead the people from bondage in Egypt and into the holy land. They were already God's people while enslaved in Egypt, so that had nothing to do with Moses. And Moses didn't make it to the holy land with them, so that wasn't dependent upon Moses either. Joshua is who brought them into the holy land. So the claim that Moses is the most important character of the bible is foolish, uninformed, and flat out wrong.

Where he is central is in being credited with having written down God's commands for the Jews (10 commandments, Levital Code, etc.), but it is foolish to think that if it wasn't Moses, that it wouldn't have happened. At every point in the bible there is someone representing God. Had it not been Moses at this point, it would have been Joshua or Caleb or someone else that God raised up for his purpose.

As to the issues of quakers and demonology and whatnot, I don't see a point in commenting on it because 1. it is irrelevant to the discussion and 2. it makes little sense.

[Athena]

Are you serious?Â*Â*Of course Moses didn't begin religion.Â*Â*Plenty of religions existed before Judism.Â*Â*In fact the Hebrews translated Sumerian stories and we know them as bible stories.Â*Â*Christianity is a larger mix of religions.Â*Â*

:D:D:D, please, people in Eden didn't have writing and could not have recorded Adam and Eve's meeting with God like a news reporter.Â*Â* This is a Sumerian story translated by Hebrews.Â*Â*The bible makes reference to multiple Gods, because the belief begins with multiple Gods, and Moses more or less defines the Hebrews as God's chosen people with a special covenant with God.Â*Â*This understanding of God is not a universal God, but is a tribal God, not the God of all people.Â*Â*It is Abraham's God and only his decendents have a covenant with this this God. This is why Paul's interpretation of Jesus was crucial to Christianity.Â*Â*He had to make it acceptable for the all the people who did not have a covenant with God to be considered God's children, making this God a universal God.Â*Â*Which comes after Greek thinking brought such a universal God to human awareness.Â*Â*

I am not saying if Moses hadn't written lead the people out of Egypt, it wouldn't have happened.Â*Â*I am saying Moses is a myth.Â*Â* Have you ever questioned by God raised up only one race that could speak for him, and then how this God became a universal God?Â*Â*Suppose God raised up men in of his word in all people's all around the world, and their stories are different, only because their environments and cultures lead the understand the words differently.Â*Â*This is what I believe is the truth.Â*Â* I don't believe a God favors one tribe of humans over all others.Â*Â*

I would bet you do comment on what I said of demononlogy coming from the east and becoming part of Christianity, nor do you commitment on the Quakers dropping the old testament and focusing on the teachings of Jesus, because know nothing about either.Â*Â* The Jews do not believe in a good God and evil Satan like Christians do.Â*Â*It was after the demonology from the east entered the consciousness that the evolving religion invisioned this split of good and evil supernatural powers.Â*Â*I have not found anywhere in the old testament an account of demons possessing human bodies.Â*Â*This demonology and a Persian idea of life after death, split Christianity from Judism, not just the story of Jesus.Â*Â*

[PittsburghAfterDark]

If you're looking at historical context there's too many known historical figures from the Bible, Old Testament, and historical facts for Moses to be the "made up part".

In fact there are still theories that the actual tablets from the Ten Commandments still exist, as does the Ark of the Covenant, in Ethiopia.
Link (http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2002/08/17/build/life/40-ark.inc)

Now this is only a theory but if the physical tablet or the Arc still exist so does unflappable truth that Moses existed.

[Athena]

If you're looking at historical context there's too many known historical figures from the Bible, Old Testament, and historical facts for Moses to be the "made up part".

In fact there are still theories that the actual tablets from the Ten Commandments still exist, as does the Ark of the Covenant, in Ethiopia.
Link (http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2002/08/17/build/life/40-ark.inc)

Now this is only a theory but if the physical tablet or the Arc still exist so does unflappable truth that Moses existed.


Please, give a historical fact about Moses.Â*Â*Of course there are stories about the the tablets and Ark existing.Â*Â*These stories are not facts.Â*Â*Throughout the primitive world there are stories about rock formations.Â*Â*The rock formations exist, but the stories aren't really what happened, they just sparked someone's imagine, and the person told a story about them. Â*Perhaps there is a problem with distinguishing between stories of the imagination and facts?Â*Â*Seeing elephants in cloud formations, or Mother Mary, doesn't mean elephants or Mother Mary is in the sky.Â*Â*Seeing a protrusion from a mountain, doesn't mean the ark is there.Â*Â*Understanding during the transition between the ice age and a moderate climate, huge dams of ice melted and huge floods crossed the land, doesn't mean a God made this happen to get rid of evil people.Â*Â*Considering the whole earth experienced an ice age and warming up, might be possible there would flood stories around the world?Â*Â*And who lived to tell these stories around the world?Â*Â*How did Noah's children get to all these places in enough numbers to reproduce new populations?Â*Â*If we question the biblical stories with scientific minds, well, many of them are as believable as the stories of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

And if a stone tablet with the ten commandments were found, I will be more inclined to a man named Moses made it, than to belief God is in a burning bush and made the stone tablet. There is a tribe in Africa that had a gold chair and claimed God gave them the gold chair, because God had chosen them to bring peace and order to the people. The Aztec also have a story of being God's chosen people and being led to the promise land. Their story is so similar to the Moses story, it adds credibility to the Mormon claim made in the Book of Morman. A story given to a man on gold tablets that disappeared after he copied them. There is evidence in south America that some could be taken as proof of the Book of Morman. Why should I believe one story more than another?

[kanyon40]

I didn't write my post to argue that I had evidence that Moses existed (though I believe that he did). I simply was writing to say that the person is completely non-credible if he starts out by saying that the story of Moses is the most important in the bible. The only reason to say that is so that he can then go ahead and use his "scholarship" to disprove "the most important story of the bible." If he can disprove whatever he says is central, then he feels he has disproved the overall religion. So, again, his claim that Moses' story is the most important is wholly inaccurate and actually makes everything else he says less trustworthy.

As for your assertions about religions in general, and Judaism and Christianity in particular, I am not going to bother addressing them. There is no reason. You already believe that you are right. You believe that you have infallible evidence that Christianity is some random collection of religions or that Judaism drew from Sumerian myths. Of course, I assume you are talking about the flood narrative in Mesopotamia. There is no reason to believe that they didn't, in fact, draw on Judaism. But you have your beliefs, your agenda, and there is no arguing with you.

I am not here to convert anybody. I have no personal interest in saving the souls of the people on this forum. I just respond when broad generalizations are made about religion, especially when they are ridiculously presumtuous and wrong. You have a lot of "expertise" on all these things as a skeptic, but as a priest and a theologian, my expertise will be completely dismissed as being a part of the agenda of Christianity or as being too unenlightened to be worth responding to.

But, as I said, I am not here for the purpose of trying to convert you. You make an awful lot of claims about religions that you know very little (if anything) about (which is obvious in how you treat them). You assume that all the information you have is right, and all the information I have is wrong. And like you said, even if we gave you a historical fact about Moses, you would be no more inclined to believing in God. So there isn't anything that would make you think that the Christian faith was anything other than simplemindedness that us intellectual weaklings need to sustain us. Since that is your feeling, it is probably best (though you have every right to post what ever you want) if you just don't post about religion since you think it is all total garbage. There is no point in this particular conversation going any further.

[kanyon40]

In regards to my last post, instead of suggesting you (Athena) don't post here, I will instead just not post here myself. There is no point in my responding to religious baiting- trying to just get a rise out of those of us who believe in something outside ourselves.

So this is my swan song to this part of the forum. =-)

[Athena]

In regards to my last post, instead of suggesting you (Athena) don't post here, I will instead just not post here myself.Â*Â*There is no point in my responding to religious baiting- trying to just get a rise out of those of us who believe in something outside ourselves.Â*Â*

So this is my swan song to this part of the forum.Â*Â*=-)


I take offense at your claim that I am religious baiting, as though what I am doing is different from what you are doing. I thinking it is the fisherman of men who does the baiting. I saying, don't take the bait. Until the Christian right and the invasion of Iraq, I pretty much held my tongue when it comes to religious matters, but the Christian right has gone too far. Especially the US support of Zionist Israel is by Zionist Christians moves religion from a person choice to a serious political one, and only fools at this time would not demand some proof of truth to support what the nation with the strongest military force on earth is doing. Your desires to believe what you want to believe, based on faith, is not a good reason for my grandchildren to be caught up in wars caused in part, or wholely, by religion. The quest for truth is for more serious than baiting.

Besides what Christianity is doing to our nation is harming our democracy, and I live to defend that democracy, which comes from Athens, not Christianity. So often Christians right as though they were the only people with God and morals. There are universal laws and we can discover them and govern ourselves with these laws. This belief is fundamental to democracy. It is distinctly different from religious beliefs which involve mythology about supernatural beings and humans. If you chose not to argue with reason, so be it, but suggesting I don't post is very Christian of you. I wonder if you would protest so strongly if I were questioning the fact or myth of Hinduism or Toaism or Buddhism?

[Athena]

There is no reason. You already believe that you are right. You believe that you have infallible evidence that Christianity is some random collection of religions or that Judaism drew from Sumerian myths. Of course, I assume you are talking about the flood narrative in Mesopotamia. There is no reason to believe that they didn't, in fact, draw on Judaism. But you have your beliefs, your agenda, and there is no arguing with you. Kanyou 40

The Sumerian civilization existed and fell long before Abraham was born the Sumerian city of Ur. These people used a writing style known as cuneiform. This is pressing lines in clay tablets to form letters. This is not the Arabic language nor Hebrew language, but is Sumerians and comes lang before Abraham.

The Hebrews copied several stories, including the creation story. We can know these because these clay tablets are still being found. We know that the original story is about Sumerian gods and that one of them was named Ninti.

"The Sumerian word for rib is ti, and the rib healing goddess came to be Ninti, which translates both as "the lady of the rib" and "the lady who makes live". This play on words does not work in Hebrew, but the rib did enter the Garden of Eden story in the form of Eve, th mother of the human race- "the lady who makes live." Interestingly, the words Eden and Adam also appear in cuneiform. Eden means "uncultivated plain"; Adam, "settlement on the plain".

The creation story tells of a flood and then a very long draught that made this region, where Iran is today, unlivable. Then the river filled again and the valley became fertile, and people settled on the plain. This series of events is varied by geology. Especially as we face global warming today, it is better to know the earth has been through these cycles before, rather than think God made the planet especially for us and it has always been as we experience it. It is this geological knowledge that places the Garden of Eden near Iran.

[Athena]

" You assume that all the information you have is right, and all the information I have is wrong." Kanyou40. I do not assume your information is wrong. It is in part history and in part myth, and a consolidation of many religions. The old testament is restricted to a Hebrew account of history and we would not accept any other racist account of history on faith. And do humans know anything? They know what they experience, see, hear.

The monotheism of Eygptian pharaoh Akhenaten predates Hebrew monotheism. He tried to force monotheism on Egypt so he was hated, and when he died his holy city was destroyed and those living in it and faithful to the monotheism fled into the desert. Years later the Hebrews appear out of the desert.

The monotheism was the result of searching the archives for the true God, and this reduced the polytheism of Eygptian gods to one, Ra. Ra is represented by the sun. This monotheism put a high importance on research and learning and on family. It may be only coincidence, but these are also Jewish values. After Sumer fell, Hebrews researched their archives, and translated Sumerian stories. This can be known as the stories are recorded in the different languages. So far a direct connection between Akhenaten's monotheism and the Hebrews has not been proven, but it is considered likely. But to whom does God speak? Just the race of men known as Hebrews? I don't think so. It is in our nature to know God through our own study and intuition, and we are no different from anyone who claims God has spoken to him. We can all attain to this consciousness. Doesn't Christian teach this?