Does god exist?

[Extreme89]

What do u think? I think HE exists :D

[radu_dragonul]

God exists for sure. It is impossible not to see His work on earth. Only if you don't
want to see Him, you can say that He doesn't exist. There are 5 major theological arguments to demonstrate God's existence but this arguments are of no use if you don't have faith.

[Huron]

I strongly beleave that GOD does EXIST
I feel the love of God everywhere.... its just that our daily rutine make us feel that we dont need him... but he is our father and thats the most important thing... at least this is the way i think

[puffin]

Well It seems almost all religions believe[except few like buddhism] in God or number of Gods. If God is exists and since he is not belongs to earth ... so can we call them or him as an alien or aliens ?

[khuldun]

Surely God does exist and we are not sure whether god is a he or not. Maybe he has no gender. Most religions have God as the supreme authority over all worldly matters.

[FucangLong]

I feel god exists as an idea, not as an actual being.

[justanotherstayathomead]

God only exists in that 96% of your brain you don't use, he is a myth created by man, to control man.

[IRoNiK]

i personally believe in God and Jesus Christ.

However, i heard a good quote a while back, "If God didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to create him."

I think thats the jist of it, basically saying that so much of humanity is based on doing good and having faith, the necessity that there must be SOMETHING greater than ourselves.

[bbalegere]

I believe in Ganesha,Krishna,Mahavishnu(Hindu gods).
The belief in god makes you work better.
You can always hope for the best if you have faith in god.
Om Namah Shivay

[demo_news]

I do belive in god, but there are more than just 1 god, such as other religions.

[sb225]

if god doesnt exists then how we can live? god is everywhere we have to worship him everyday in order to live happily
money is not greater than worship

[E-Z-B]

if god doesnt exists then how we can live? god is everywhere we have to worship him everyday in order to live happily
money is not greater than worship



Not sure what you mean here. I believe he does exist, but you cannot see him nor his work anywhere, much like the dilemma that Israelites faced on their departure to the Promised Land, and the times leading up to the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions that displaced Israel and Judah, respectively. They could not fathom worshipping an invisible God and not one made of wood or metal. Only through a few miracles did they witness his power.

But God has said and done everything he wanted to say and do. The scriptures are there, so it's up to us to decide if it was real or not.

[FragSource]

i think that you cannot say he is real, or that he is fake, because no one has seen him, i believe in god, but i dont beleive int he stories about him

[digit]

Even the science prove God exists, do you really think we are all here by hasard ?
A human cell is thousand times more complex than a car, and you know cars doesn't come by hasard right ?

[T.J. Wolfe]

if god doesnt exists then how we can live?


We're doing it now. I don't believe in god, neither do I support close-mindedness. I've had debates with my friends before about religion, whether it be for it or against it, but as justanotherstayathomead pointed out, I believe it was a system created by man to control man. Whether he's real or not, both points work out equally.

[KrAzY3]

I am agnostic, so that should make it clear that I feel I can't answer this question. I can't prove he exists, nor can I disprove his existence. I believe there is most likely a superior being out there of some sort. We live in such a massive universe, I doubt we are the most advanced being here.

I do not believe that there is a God in the sense that there is some all-powerful all-loving big guy up there looking out for us. I've seen too much suffering to believe that a really compassionate guy made us. I can't refute the existence of a god though.

[T.J. Wolfe]

I do not believe that there is a God in the sense that there is some all-powerful all-loving big guy up there looking out for us. I've seen too much suffering to believe that a really compassionate guy made us. I can't refute the existence of a god though.


There could be a possibility that god didn't want to affect free will.

[Churchel]

god is a great way to keep poor people complacent.

Sugar Candy Mountain everyone...

[z0mbys]

if god doesnt exists then how we can live? god is everywhere we have to worship him everyday in order to live happily

evolution..

[trefer]

God only exists in that 96% of your brain you don't use, he is a myth created by man, to control man.


I alsdo think that God don't exist. However, I think lots of people actually need God to be happier, so it's good for them.

However, you shoulnd't allow religiion to talk about pilitics, it's always an error.

[forest_ranger254]

God only exists in that 96% of your brain you don't use, he is a myth created by man, to control man.


I follow Christianity because it is the only one that requires the leader to do anything. I could never take those other beliefs seriously enough because I would always find that the beliefs lined up with the person's desires. I would LOVE a reality that I could just get saved and go on sinning. I would LOVE it if I wasn't required to tell the truth. The things that we are commanded to do are not easy. here is a short description of what the preacher is required to be from 1 Corinthians 4:


Read vs 1-2. Paul uses two metaphors which were familiar to the Corinthians to describe the job of the preacher-leader.

SERVANT ("under-rower"): galley-slave of Roman war-ships who must watch the captain and instantly obey [1] >> SPARTACUS

This metaphor emphasizes the fact that Christian leader-preachers are under the direct authority of Jesus Christ in their work. They are to follow his orders and his orders only.

STEWARD ("housekeeper"): the manager-slave of a wealthy person's estate who distributes needed care to the owner's other slaves. [2] Airline stewards or stewardesses serve the passengers according to the directions of the pilot. They have been entrusted with valuable information and commodities which they are responsible to dispense.

This metaphor repeats the idea of being directly and solely under the authority of Christ, but emphasizes their primary role as dispensing something valuable from Christ to his people.

you tell me, if God made something, would everything line up to man's wants? or to His wants?

[longjonsilver]

(I know this is really late however I didnt see this thread until now.)

Have you ever heard the argument that the whole reason Christianity choose the seven deadly sins to be that of what they are, is because they are the seven inherent characteristics to human beings. By claiming these to be "sinful" you create an eternal dependence on the church.

Religon was created for 3 reasons:
1. To explain the unexplained. (Notice how we laugh at old religons explaining things like thunderbolts being the weapons of a powerful god.)
2. To end the fear of death. (No body wants to die forever or live with the feeling that their loved one is gone for good.)
3. My favorite... To place morals upon the world.

Let me comment real quick on the 3rd reason. This can easily be related to Santa Clause. See if you can connect the dots:

Do good all year and you will recieve presents from Santa, but do bad all year and you will recieve coal and switches.
Do good all your life and you will recieve eternity in Heaven, but do bad all your life and you will recieve an eternity in Hell.

Sounds a little suspecious to me. Parents created God just as they did religon to place morals and good behavior on their children. Noticing good results parents choose to inform their children later and later in life until one day they decided it would be for the better to take the truth to the grave. The only difference between God and Santa is that God is much more difficult to disprove so their is no inevitable day where you must explain what is wrong with what you have been preaching to your children.

No one can deny the fact that religons are created. No matter what you beleive, you can acknowlege that all other religions other than the one you believe in are concoted by humans.

Simply put...God does not exist. I would love to give you more reasons why He...especially the Christian God does not exist, however I do not have the space or time right now.

[underdawg]

I like this question. Personally I really don't know and don't really care if there is a god or isn't. I would think that if there were a god and it wanted me to know it bad enough , it would try to make contact.

I tend to think most gods were created to ease people's fear of death. To give themselves some sense of hope in the knowledge that we all die some day.

If there were a god, I really don't think that it would be a jealous god like the Christians have. Who would he be jealous of? And why would a god expect people to worship him? I would think that such a powerful being would be above such vanity. And what sort of a sadistic god would he be to give them rules to live by that is impossible not to break.

Personally I think we live in a perfect world already. Balanced between life and death, good and evil. Life is a wonderful journey, no matter how long or short, and the difficult parts and the bad things that we overcome make for a better, more interesting story. Why would one want more? The idea of heaven sounds boring as hell to me. A junk yard for souls with nothing better to do but praise Jesus 24/7 for eternity.

[Elrathin]

For me, I stopped believing in Christianity when I posed this situation to some Christians.

You have two men. One is in his 60s and has been doing evil all his life. Raping, killing, murdering, stealing, etc. Then you have another man, who has been devoted to his family, taking care of them faithful, law abiding, and generally good guy that does good things but does not believe in god.

On the death bed of the the bad guy, he admits to everything Christian and has essentially (by christian terms) been "saved".

On the death bed of the good guy, he dies.

According to Christians the good guy will spend an enternity in hell burning while the guy who did evil things will be in Heaven.

Sorry, that makes abosultely no sense from a "god" point of view.

Also I cannot see ANYONE doing ANYTHING in a small finite time (in comparison) to justify burning in hell for eternity.

I think it is all a fairy tale to make mankind feel like there is a purpose to him being on this earth and to guarantee obedience to the said laws of those who created those rules.

That is not to say I don't believe there is "something" out there, I just don't think it is anything that mankind has tried to explain. For these reasons I have listed, I am agnostic.

[Cobra]

Well, that would really depends on what sect of Christianity whether or not the good guy will go to hell. Some will give you points for living a good life even if you never followed Christ but another religion. I'm not exactly sure but remember being told that people such as the good guy you speak up would go to purgatory and be given a second chance to except god according to the catholic doctrine. Someone correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I’ve heard.

[Cobra]

Oh, and I consider myself a Christian though I don't go to church/non- practicing. I’ve never really felt a presence of a god like many claim to feel and the whole subject just tends to make me feel bad so I don’t spend much time on it.

[underdawg]

The whole concept of original sin used to bug me too as a kid. The whole idea of a baby being born with something innately wrong with its soul disturbed me. Unless this child could grow up and ask forgiveness for those sins, it would surely go to hell. Not much hope if the baby dies early.

I first began doubting the Christian god as a child when my parents told me that animals don't go to heaven, yet someone without a brain or severely retarded would go before a dog.

The thing that finally made me doubt the Christian god's existence was his rejection of homosexuality. Any god that would create me, and then reject me for who I was, did not deserve to be worshiped. It was an easy thing to reject, because according to Christianity, I was doomed anyway, unless I could change. It would be much easier for me to change races or sex than to become straight. Plastic surgeons can do wonders these days. They are good , but they can't rewire the brain.

[AlonzoMourning23]

For me, I stopped believing in Christianity when I posed this situation to some Christians.

You have two men.Â*Â*One is in his 60s and has been doing evil all his life. Raping, killing, murdering, stealing, etc.Â*Â*Then you have another man, who has been devoted to his family, taking care of them faithful, law abiding, and generally good guy that does good things but does not believe in god.

On the death bed of the the bad guy, he admits to everything Christian and has essentially (by christian terms) been "saved".Â*Â*

On the death bed of the good guy, he dies.

According to Christians the good guy will spend an enternity in hell burning while the guy who did evil things will be in Heaven.

Sorry, that makes abosultely no sense from a "god" point of view.

Also I cannot see ANYONE doing ANYTHING in a small finite time (in comparison) to justify burning in hell for eternity.

I think it is all a fairy tale to make mankind feel like there is a purpose to him being on this earth and to guarantee obedience to the said laws of those who created those rules.Â*Â*

That is not to say I don't believe there is "something" out there, I just don't think it is anything that mankind has tried to explain.Â*Â*For these reasons I have listed, I am agnostic.




In catholicism the bad guy would not be "saved" unless he genuinely repented. But deeds are equal to, and some catholics argue more important than, faith.

In modern Catholicism, the good guy would not go to hell. Depending on what he did with his life (just a "good guy", or someone who went out of his way to do good, like helping the poor), he may or may not end up in a better spot than the one who repented. If the other guy simply proclaimed his faith in Jesus, but did not truly repent, he would be in hell.

[forest_ranger254]

In catholicism the bad guy would not be "saved" unless he genuinely repented. But deeds are equal to, and some catholics argue more important than, faith.

In modern Catholicism, the good guy would not go to hell. Depending on what he did with his life (just a "good guy", or someone who went out of his way to do good, like helping the poor), he may or may not end up in a better spot than the one who repented. If the other guy simply proclaimed his faith in Jesus, but did not truly repent, he would be in hell.


Well, I have a verse that flies in the face of Catholicism:

We are "saved by grace, through faith NOT OF OURSELVES, it is a GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."

As for the truly repenting part, though, I agree. THe first Christian wasn't the disciples, it was the thief on the cross.If you read the parts of the Bible between the death and the ressurection, you will notice they did exactly the opposite of what Jesus would have had them do. They ran and hid. From the storyline shown in the Bible, they were saved after the ressurection when they believed.

[forest_ranger254]

(I know this is really late however I didnt see this thread until now.)

Have you ever heard the argument that the whole reason Christianity choose the seven deadly sins to be that of what they are, is because they are the seven inherent characteristics to human beings.Â*Â*By claiming these to be "sinful" you create an eternal dependence on the church.

Simply put...God does not exist.Â*Â*I would love to give you more reasons why He...especially the Christian God does not exist, however I do not have the space or time right now.


1. Dependence on the church??!?!?!? You must be joking. Ain't a single person dependent on a group of people. No body on earth is perfect, even all the way up to Dr Danny Lovett, the president of my school. Paul was a sinner. Our sins don't make us dependent on the church. They make us dependent on God, and God alone.

2. Ok, I accept your challenge. Give me a purely philosophical reason we should not believe in God. That is the realm of the debate. I want to see a philosophical reason to believe we are all damned to oblivion because of the nonexistence of a God and the life is pointless and that I might as well go outside right now and jump off the top of the Lee Roberson Center headfirst down a three story drop and end this pointless debacle right now?

[forest_ranger254]

I like this question. Personally I really don't know and don't really care if there is a god or isn't. I would think that if there were a god and it wanted me to know it bad enough , it would try to make contact.

I tend to think most gods were created to ease people's fear of death. To give themselves some sense of hope in the knowledge that we all die some day.

If there were a god, I really don't think that it would be a jealous god like the Christians have. Who would he be jealous of?Â*Â*And why would a god expect people to worship him? I would think that such a powerful being would be above such vanity. And what sort of a sadistic god would he be to give them rules to live by that is impossible not to break.

Personally I think we live in a perfect world already. Balanced between life and death, good and evil. Life is a wonderful journey, no matter how long or short, and the difficult parts and the bad things that we overcome make for a better, more interesting story. Why would one want more? The idea of heaven sounds boring as hell to me. A junk yard for souls with nothing better to do but praise Jesus 24/7 for eternity.Â*Â*


And if He uses His followers and 30-40 writers over a timespan of 1500 years to reach you and you still don't respond?

We don't have an explanation of what heaven will be like. But if you think this is utopia, you better get your head out of the sand and take a look around you. So it makes people happier to lose their legs, become a quadriplegic, or to be born deaf, blind and incontinent. Or maybe all those people who lost their lives in 9/11 and in Iraq and Korea and Vietnam, in Europe and Africa over WW2 think they got off good. Maybe those people who are out on the streets simply because they were born to a family who had absolutely no money and couldn't afford to put him in school, maybe they think they are living pretty darn good. Hey, what about the millions in the world who have lost loved ones to disease and crime.

Am I beginning to sound like a reporter for CNN in Iraq? GOOD, because ain't nothing in this world is perfect. We are a bunch of lying, scheming, and cheating idiots on rampage.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Well, I have a verse that flies in the face of Catholicism:

We are "saved by grace, through faith NOT OF OURSELVES, it is a GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast."

As for the truly repenting part, though, I agree. THe first Christian wasn't the disciples, it was the thief on the cross.If you read the parts of the Bible between the death and the ressurection, you will notice they did exactly the opposite of what Jesus would have had them do. They ran and hid. From the storyline shown in the Bible, they were saved after the ressurection when they believed.


Yup, and I have shown you multiple verses that support catholic teachings on faith and works.

http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=238&pid=2494#pid2494

[forest_ranger254]

For me, I stopped believing in Christianity when I posed this situation to some Christians.

You have two men.Â*Â*One is in his 60s and has been doing evil all his life. Raping, killing, murdering, stealing, etc.Â*Â*Then you have another man, who has been devoted to his family, taking care of them faithful, law abiding, and generally good guy that does good things but does not believe in god.

On the death bed of the the bad guy, he admits to everything Christian and has essentially (by christian terms) been "saved".Â*Â*

On the death bed of the good guy, he dies.

According to Christians the good guy will spend an enternity in hell burning while the guy who did evil things will be in Heaven.

Sorry, that makes abosultely no sense from a "god" point of view.

Also I cannot see ANYONE doing ANYTHING in a small finite time (in comparison) to justify burning in hell for eternity.

I think it is all a fairy tale to make mankind feel like there is a purpose to him being on this earth and to guarantee obedience to the said laws of those who created those rules.Â*Â*

That is not to say I don't believe there is "something" out there, I just don't think it is anything that mankind has tried to explain.Â*Â*For these reasons I have listed, I am agnostic.




Tell me. An asthmatic is unable to come around smoke or other allergens without having breathing problems, as it can kill them.

A person who has a food allergy cannot eat certain foods, as it can kill them.

Likewise, a sinner cannot come before God, because sin (and anything connected to it) is destroyed in the presence of God. This is why God came down to earth, to die for our sins. There is only one sin to death, and that is lifelong denial of Jesus Christ's gift of salvation.

Chakras, karma and anything else like that are actually balanced against the person if you look at it right. YOu forgot person C. What about the one who, for the first part of his life, goes around killing people and doing just about every wrong thing you can think of, and for the second half of his life, tries to turn a new leaf. He is screwed over by the first part of his life, no matter how good his intentions.

You have a fence that is thirty feet of sheer steel. Are you gonna try to climb it or are you going to go through the door that is wide open with people standing in front waving people to come in?

[AlonzoMourning23]

I want to see a philosophical reason to believe we are all damned to oblivion because of the nonexistence of a God and the life is pointless and that I might as well go outside right now and jump off the top of the Lee Roberson Center headfirst down a three story drop and end this pointless debacle right now?

One could just as easily argue that if life is finite, that you only have a relatively short time before everything ends, that every day can become that much more important. You must live a good life now, since there is no future life. When something is limited, every bit of it can become much more important.

Jumping off a building would be pointless. If you are concerned about your short life then you probably don't want to waste what little you have.

Aiding the poor, the sick etc. is not done out of any desire to please a higher power or for any reward, but is done out of concern for others and to ensure that their limited time is as good as it can be.

If life is pointless, then you need to find your own reason to live. If life is pointless and this is all there is, it's that much more important that you make good of it whenever you can.

If you are suited for it, any system of religious beliefs can be extremely rewarding.

You have a fence that is thirty feet of sheer steel. Are you gonna try to climb it or are you going to go through the door that is wide open with people standing in front waving people to come in?

What's more rewarding, walking to your car or running a marathon?

[underdawg]

I never said it makes people happier to to experience pain, to starve or be brutally killed. When I said that this was a perfect world I didn't refer to the individual, I refer to the world as a whole. In order for one group to be happy, another must suffer. It is a give and take system. Sometimes you get good luck and other times not. Primative peoples knew and understood this. I think modern people are pretty spoiled and greedy. Christians and Muslims talk so highly of the next world, that they can't even appreciate the gift that life is now. It is all in the perception. You might see a glass half empty, while I see a glass half full. But if religion is what helps you cope with the ups and downs of life, then I say go for it.

[Technocrat]

Here's a question. Do Lepreuchans exist?

[Elrathin]

Tell me. An asthmatic is unable to come around smoke or other allergens without having breathing problems, as it can kill them.

A person who has a food allergy cannot eat certain foods, as it can kill them.

Likewise, a sinner cannot come before God, because sin (and anything connected to it) is destroyed in the presence of God. This is why God came down to earth, to die for our sins. There is only one sin to death, and that is lifelong denial of Jesus Christ's gift of salvation.

Chakras, karma and anything else like that are actually balanced against the person if you look at it right. YOu forgot person C. What about the one who, for the first part of his life, goes around killing people and doing just about every wrong thing you can think of, and for the second half of his life, tries to turn a new leaf. He is screwed over by the first part of his life, no matter how good his intentions.

You have a fence that is thirty feet of sheer steel. Are you gonna try to climb it or are you going to go through the door that is wide open with people standing in front waving people to come in?


You are free to believe what you want, and I have no problem with it. You can justify your religion all you want, I have no problem with it. It just doesn't pass the BS test IMO for me to follow it.

[forest_ranger254]

One could just as easily argue that if life is finite, that you only have a relatively short time before everything ends, that every day can become that much more important. You must live a good life now, since there is no future life. When something is limited, every bit of it can become much more important.

Jumping off a building would be pointless. If you are concerned about your short life then you probably don't want to waste what little you have.

Aiding the poor, the sick etc. is not done out of any desire to please a higher power or for any reward, but is done out of concern for others and to ensure that their limited time is as good as it can be.

If life is pointless, then you need to find your own reason to live. If life is pointless and this is all there is, it's that much more important that you make good of it whenever you can.

If you are suited for it, any system of religious beliefs can be extremely rewarding.

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go? If life is finite and there is no God, it was just easing the pitifully short lives of another group of damned people whose impacts will, likewise, be minimal in the chain of time.

A reason to live must surpass the life itself. It must have eternal impact to suffice to fill that void that is in every person's life. Otherwise, your life is no more than a vapor that dissappears in a second.

What's more rewarding, walking to your car or running a marathon?


What's more rewarding, the one that is possible, or the one that you could never do to save your life. Put it this way: You climb that wall and make one mistake, sin one time, and you fall to your death. However, with the pathway through the gate, you walk a little off the path, you can easily correct your path. There is but one way to heaven. So why try the way that doesn't exist.

To put it even more metaphorically accurate, you have to cross the grand canyon, with only your feet to get you from one side or the other. There is a bridge to the other side. What do you do? Obviously, you would walk. A pair of Leather Personell Carriers ain't going to get you too far if you try to jump the grand canyon.

[forest_ranger254]

I never said it makes people happier to to experience pain, to starve or be brutally killed. When I said that this was a perfect world I didn't refer to the individual, I refer to the world as a whole. In order for one group to be happy, another must suffer. It is a give and take system. Sometimes you get good luck and other times not. Primative peoples knew and understood this. I think modern people are pretty spoiled and greedy. Christians and Muslims talk so highly of the next world, that they can't even appreciate the gift that life is now. It is all in the perception. You might see a glass half empty, while I see a glass half full.Â*Â*But if religion is what helps you cope with the ups and downs of life, then I say go for it.


I see a glass not even half full. This world's glass is somewhere around 10% full, and that's a BIG MAYBE. It is likely lower. And the bottom of the cup has a crack in it through which the water is flowing.

I see heaven, as described in the Bible, as a glass overflowing. Yes, life is a gift, but this earth is the closest to hell I will ever get. However, I want you to go to those people who I spoke of in my post and tell them this is a perfect world, seeing as how they make up the majority of the world, you won't have to look too far. Tell them that the 10% of people who get good luck are making them, the remaining 90%, suffer, because the cosmic balance of the world must be kept.

[underdawg]

I suppose we have two entirely different ideas what constitutes perfection. It appears to me that when you hear the world perfect it means being always happy and never having to go through any sort of struggle what so ever. Lounging about, without a care in the world, well fed and happy. No need to eat because you would be always full. No need to run or walk because you are always where you want to be. No enemies to think of. You might as well be a rock.

Yes, people suffer. People are dying of hunger, people are getting murdered, and everyone of us no matter how wealthy will face death and sickness. As an individual doesn't it all come down to enjoying what you do have at the moment? Are not you thankfull at this moment that you can see, hear, taste, and touch? You are not thankfull you have your health? Maybe it is bad, but things can always be worse. If you look at life as always being less than half empty, it will always be less than half empty for you. Personally, I don't believe that the purpose of life is to hate this imperfect world and pine away for the next. You will miss out on so much.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go?

You spend time every week helping deaf people.

Let me put it another way, you take time out of your week to alter the course of another persons life for the better.

Does that mean nothing to you? Is that even a reward to you?

If life is finite and there is no God, it was just easing the pitifully short lives of another group of damned people whose impacts will, likewise, be minimal in the chain of time.

And, when combined, they results in massive changes.

I have a 15 pound dog that attacks pitbulls and mastiffs every chance he gets. He makes the most of what he has. We should all learn to do the same.

A reason to live must surpass the life itself. It must have eternal impact to suffice to fill that void that is in every person's life. Otherwise, your life is no more than a vapor that dissappears in a second.

I'd rather be a multimillionaire and waste a million than be a poor man and waste a hundred. If you can make a good life here, then anything more is just a bonus.


What's more rewarding, the one that is possible, or the one that you could never do to save your life. Put it this way: You climb that wall and make one mistake, sin one time, and you fall to your death. However, with the pathway through the gate, you walk a little off the path, you can easily correct your path. There is but one way to heaven. So why try the way that doesn't exist.

You have everyday to try to outweigh the mistakes of your past. True, an atheist has no last minute repent, but those statements are usually about as meaningful as last years New Years resolution.

To put it even more metaphorically accurate, you have to cross the grand canyon, with only your feet to get you from one side or the other. There is a bridge to the other side. What do you do? Obviously, you would walk. A pair of Leather Personell Carriers ain't going to get you too far if you try to jump the grand canyon.


If you take the easy way out. Or you could get out your mountain gear and climb down one side then climb up the other. It may be more difficult, and it may not be the choice of most, but the ones who do it will never forget. The same can't be said for the man who takes the easy way out.

[Labrocca]

Here's a question. Do Lepreuchans exist?


yes they do ...and if I can find one that pot of gold sure will come in handy

[forest_ranger254]

You spend time every week helping deaf people.

Let me put it another way, you take time out of your week to alter the course of another persons life for the better.

Does that mean nothing to you? Is that even a reward to you?

If life is finite and there is no God, it was just easing the pitifully short lives of another group of damned people whose impacts will, likewise, be minimal in the chain of time.

And, when combined, they results in massive changes.

I have a 15 pound dog that attacks pitbulls and mastiffs every chance he gets. He makes the most of what he has. We should all learn to do the same.

But I am a vapor effecting maybe another 20, or if lucky, 200 vapors of whom maybe 10% will actually use that effect to effect another, then 1%, then 0%. My effect has a ripple, but it stops. It is still not enough.

I'd rather be a multimillionaire and waste a million than be a poor man and waste a hundred. If you can make a good life here, then anything more is just a bonus.

But what is it worth if a man lives an awesome life at the expense of his soul?

You have everyday to try to outweigh the mistakes of your past. True, an atheist has no last minute repent, but those statements are usually about as meaningful as last years New Years resolution.

You have no promise of tomorrow. Tomorrow is as guaranteed to you as a million dollars. Nothing in life is sure. Sometimes people who do the best they can with the best intentions still screw everything up.


If you take the easy way out. Or you could get out your mountain gear and climb down one side then climb up the other. It may be more difficult, and it may not be the choice of most, but the ones who do it will never forget. The same can't be said for the man who takes the easy way out.


You don't have mountain climbing gear, and it is impossible to cross. But since you want it that way, I will use a different metaphor. One street is narrow and rocky, the other choice in life is a wide street. Tell me which one you would choose and which one you think the majority will choose.

[forest_ranger254]

I suppose we have two entirely different ideas what constitutes perfection. It appears to me that when you hear the world perfect it means being always happy and never having to go through any sort of struggle what so ever. Lounging about, without a care in the world, well fed and happy. No need to eat because you would be always full. No need to run or walk because you are always where you want to be. No enemies to think of. You might as well be a rock.

Yes, people suffer. People are dying of hunger, people are getting murdered, and everyone of us no matter how wealthy will face death and sickness. As an individual doesn't it all come down to enjoying what you do have at the moment? Are not you thankfull at this moment that you can see, hear, taste, and touch? You are not thankfull you have your health? Maybe it is bad, but things can always be worse. If you look at life as always being less than half empty, it will always be less than half empty for you. Personally, I don't believe that the purpose of life is to hate this imperfect world and pine away for the next. You will miss out on so much.


No, that would be boring. My idea of heaven, personally, would be a place where everybody used ASL. My idea of perfect is a place where sin, which has confounded man since the garden. My idea of the best place to be would be a place where I could find an endless supply of places where I could go hiking and exploring, where I didn't have to worry about suddenly finding a knife in my back. THat is my idea of heaven. As it is, We are purty durn far from that.

[AlonzoMourning23]

But I am a vapor effecting maybe another 20, or if lucky, 200 vapors of whom maybe 10% will actually use that effect to effect another, then 1%, then 0%. My effect has a ripple, but it stops. It is still not enough.

Why? You are one person. Why is it not worth changing the lives of 2 or 10 people for the better? If someone changed your life for the better is that not something special? And you can do that for multiple people.


But what is it worth if a man lives an awesome life at the expense of his soul?

These are your words:

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go?


If you were to approach Jesus and ask "I'm spending my days helping people improve their lives, but what's in it for me?", what would he say? How would he respond to someone who helps others so they can be rewarded?

Luke 18:9-14
9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about[a] himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


Matthew 16:21-25
21
From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
22
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, "God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you."
23
He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do."
24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

And a non jesus reference:

1 Peter 5:2

2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

Your good works seem to be the result of greed. Ask yourself, when you die, if you could be assured that you would exist in nothingess for the rest of eternity, would you still do these works?

You have no promise of tomorrow. Tomorrow is as guaranteed to you as a million dollars. Nothing in life is sure. Sometimes people who do the best they can with the best intentions still screw everything up.

Life is a risk. You take a risk following Christianity, God may be some jealous god of a non abrahamic religion, in which case you may be doomed. There is no certainty in life or religion. Those who think they know everything are victims of wishful thinking. You can always be wrong on these matters.



You don't have mountain climbing gear, and it is impossible to cross. But since you want it that way, I will use a different metaphor. One street is narrow and rocky, the other choice in life is a wide street. Tell me which one you would choose and which one you think the majority will choose.


I'd take the narrow and rocky street, most would take the wide street. They won't look back and remember what happened, but I will. They gained a few minutes of time, but I gain a memory.

[forest_ranger254]

Why? You are one person. Why is it not worth changing the lives of 2 or 10 people for the better? If someone changed your life for the better is that not something special? And you can do that for multiple people.

Yeah, I change a small group of people for the better. So what, that still leaves me lacking. It isn't worth it if I don't even get the chance to see it. But Jesus also said, "Not everyone who calls 'Lord, Lord,' will enter my kingdom." Later on, the Bible (I like it in Sign Language, where it is literally signed, "Jesus' Book") says, "Saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast."
What would Jesus say if you cam up to Him and said what you said? "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I know you not..." (Luke 13:27)

These are your words:

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go?


If you were to approach Jesus and ask "I'm spending my days helping people improve their lives, but what's in it for me?", what would he say? How would he respond to someone who helps others so they can be rewarded?
Your good works seem to be the result of greed. Ask yourself, when you die, if you could be assured that you would exist in nothingess for the rest of eternity, would you still do these works?

Good, I am making you think of it from a different perspective.
This is how human nature works. Everything that people do is done for themselves. No matter what. I am going to be an interpreter. I want a testimony. I don't want a braggimony. However, I am going to be daily putting myself in front of people and preaching or interpreting. I don't change the lives there, though. I am not the reason that people who I speak to will change. I can only count that as God's victories.

Life is a risk. You take a risk following Christianity, God may be some jealous god of a non abrahamic religion, in which case you may be doomed. There is no certainty in life or religion. Those who think they know everything are victims of wishful thinking. You can always be wrong on these matters.

But I still have more chances here. I know poker, and I see the hands. Tha game? Texas Hold 'em. My hand, pocket aces. Your hand, pocket Kings. Four cards are out. One ace and king is among them. There are also a queen and a Jack. The river card is to be played. the other guy, I can't see his cards. Who here has the most chance? If he has the other ace, we are looking at a high card match, which puts him in a position for a kill. If he has a 10, he wins. If you get the river, you win. Right now though, I have the greatest chance. The river is the game breaker.


I'd take the narrow and rocky street, most would take the wide street. They won't look back and remember what happened, but I will. They gained a few minutes of time, but I gain a memory.


Well guess what. The Christian life isn't exactly fun. I like what my director in Eye Witness said earlier today. We don't just have a conversion experience and then live like Christ all our lives. Our whole life after is a conversion experience. I am still experiencing my conversion experience. The Christian life on earth is a time of breaking and molding, of going in and out of the kiln so that God can make us a better vessel, worthy of bringing His story to others. The kiln is the metaphorical item representing our trials and tribulations. Jesus said "WHEN trials come." Not if. When. It is a sure thing that we will endure trials and tribulations. Jesus Himself endured trials. He was tempted in all ways as we are. He was tempted so much at the Garden of Gesthemene that the blood vessels in his pores broke from the high blood pressure brought on by the stress, making Him sweat blood. He was tempted at the Via Dolorosa, The Way of the Cross, after having been beaten so bad he was in hypovolemic shock and people could literally see his organs. My pastor is Pastor Rodney Kelley. His father had a wound that the doctors said could not be medically assisted with. That he had to heal on his own. The nurse said that when she was cleaning the wound out, she could literally feel the heart beating, the flesh, literally moving underneath the tissue. That was only a fraction of how badly Jesus was beaten. Yet we deny His love every day of our lives when we say He is not the way. You know who he was thinking of when He did that? TO find your answer, go find the guy. You will meet him in the mirror.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Your reasons for being a christian are selfish. It's not to help people. You don't do charity to help people. You help others because you think it helps yourself. You do it because you want to get something out of it. How is that christian?

[forest_ranger254]

Your reasons for being a christian are selfish. It's not to help people. You don't do charity to help people. You help others because you think it helps yourself. You do it because you want to get something out of it. How is that christian?


What do I get out of it?

Money???
nope, I ain't getting paid that much.

Fame???
Nope, I speak to a small group of people, helping them to be able to get along in life. Interpreters aren't always popular among deaf people.

Why am I Christian? Because I can't do this alone.

Since you guys don't seem to understand why I am doing this. You need to see what it is like to be deaf so I can give my reason for being an interpreter:

What is it like to "hear" a hand?
You have to be deaf to understand.


What is it like to be a small child,
In a school, in a room void of sound --
With a teacher who talks and talks and talks;
And then when she does come around to you,
She expects you to know what she's said?
You have to be deaf to understand.

Or the teacher thinks that to make you smart,
You must first learn how to talk with your voice;
So mumbo-jumbo with hands on your face
For hours and hours without patience or end,
Until out comes a faint resembling sound?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to be curious,
To thirst for knowledge you can call your own,
With an inner desire that's set on fire --
And you ask a brother, sister, or friend
Who looks in answer and says, "Never Mind"?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What it is like in a corner to stand,
Though there's nothing you've done really wrong,
Other than try to make use of your hands
To a silent peer to communicate
A thought that comes to your mind all at once?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to be shouted at
When one thinks that will help you to hear;
Or misunderstand the words of a friend
Who is trying to make a joke clear,
And you don't get the point because he's failed?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to be laughed in the face
When you try to repeat what is said;
Just to make sure that you've understood,
And you find that the words were misread --
And you want to cry out, "Please help me, friend"?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to have to depend
Upon one who can hear to phone a friend;
Or place a call to a business firm
And be forced to share what's personal, and,
Then find that your message wasn't made clear?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to be deaf and alone
In the company of those who can hear --
And you only guess as you go along,
For no one's there with a helping hand,
As you try to keep up with words and song?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like on the road of life
To meet with a stranger who opens his mouth --
And speaks out a line at a rapid pace;
And you can't understand the look in his face
Because it is new and you're lost in the race?
You have to be deaf to understand.

What is it like to comprehend
Some nimble fingers that paint the scene,
And make you smile and feel serene,
With the "spoken word" of the moving hand
That makes you part of the word at large?
You have to be deaf to understand.


I am here to help what is perhaps the most ignored minority in the US.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But Ranger, you do not have to prove your nobleness in nature to some of these folks here.
2. I sense your wasting your efforts here.
3. But it is fun to share points of view.
4. Seems these folks have made up their minds already.
5. Just how I see it thou.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AlonzoMourning23]

What do I get out of it?

Money???
nope, I ain't getting paid that much.

Fame???
Nope, I speak to a small group of people, helping them to be able to get along in life.

You do it to be rewarded in the future:

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go? If life is finite and there is no God, it was just easing the pitifully short lives of another group of damned people whose impacts will, likewise, be minimal in the chain of time........

Yeah, I change a small group of people for the better. So what, that still leaves me lacking. It isn't worth it if I don't even get the chance to see it.

Your words indicate that you would not do this if there was no reward after you die.

[forest_ranger254]

What do I get out of it?

Money???
nope, I ain't getting paid that much.

Fame???
Nope, I speak to a small group of people, helping them to be able to get along in life.

You do it to be rewarded in the future:

Look, I may be the best interpreter in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf in the future. I could cause major leaps in respect for the deaf culture. Where does that leave me when I go? If life is finite and there is no God, it was just easing the pitifully short lives of another group of damned people whose impacts will, likewise, be minimal in the chain of time........

Yeah, I change a small group of people for the better. So what, that still leaves me lacking. It isn't worth it if I don't even get the chance to see it.

Your words indicate that you would not do this if there was no reward after you die.


I am an actor. I don't always speak like I believe if I see a chance to let people see it from a different angle. Check what I said the post that I introduced the rocky road vs wide path dillemma. "See, now you are looking at it from a different perspective." The fact is, I don't care if I do become the best interpreter. What is that if I lose my soul?

Nice to see you popped in Chesswars. Long time no see. I see you are still in the habit of apologizing for your views.

PS: I ain't staying here long if somebody doesn't make another mistake on how I view things here. I think I guessed wrongly when I assumed that people here could pick out when someone is acting differently than they usually do. What do I need to do? get on a stage?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But, these folks on the whole are at times a bit of a baiter.
2. They have an axe to grind about Gawd.
3. Many here want to take you to task over your faith.
4. And try to catch you in your words.
5. To try to destroy you and your Gawd.
6. Just don't get to personal with some of these folks here.
7. Some people get a certain jolly over seeing or facilitating the crash and burn of a person of faith.
8. A little devil in their heart, makes them bait people of Faith, as a way to try to attack Gawds elected.
8. Don't be fooled.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AlonzoMourning23]

I am an actor. I don't always speak like I believe if I see a chance to let people see it from a different angle. Check what I said the post that I introduced the rocky road vs wide path dillemma. "See, now you are looking at it from a different perspective." The fact is, I don't care if I do become the best interpreter. What is that if I lose my soul?

Which suggested that your ideas are foreign to me. I'm not sure what unfamiliar angle you think you exposed me to. I was raised in both religious and secular environments. I'm not the type of person who grew up surrounded by like minded individuals. I grew up in an environment surrounded by opposing views, and I would often be alone in my opinions. In those situations you cannot argue unless you understand your opponents view.

You're not showing me anything new.

And it's not a question of losing your sole. IT's a question of, if you know there is an afterlife compared to if you know there is not, do you still do charity if there isn't.

PS: I ain't staying here long if somebody doesn't make another mistake on how I view things here. I think I guessed wrongly when I assumed that people here could pick out when someone is acting differently than they usually do. What do I need to do? get on a stage?


So then, I assume that even if you believe there to be no God or afterlife, you would still do charity work as you do now?

[forest_ranger254]

I am an actor. I don't always speak like I believe if I see a chance to let people see it from a different angle. Check what I said the post that I introduced the rocky road vs wide path dillemma. "See, now you are looking at it from a different perspective." The fact is, I don't care if I do become the best interpreter. What is that if I lose my soul?

Which suggested that your ideas are foreign to me. I'm not sure what unfamiliar angle you think you exposed me to. I was raised in both religious and secular environments. I'm not the type of person who grew up surrounded by like minded individuals. I grew up in an environment surrounded by opposing views, and I would often be alone in my opinions. In those situations you cannot argue unless you understand your opponents view.

You're not showing me anything new.

And it's not a question of losing your sole. IT's a question of, if you know there is an afterlife compared to if you know there is not, do you still do charity if there isn't.

PS: I ain't staying here long if somebody doesn't make another mistake on how I view things here. I think I guessed wrongly when I assumed that people here could pick out when someone is acting differently than they usually do. What do I need to do? get on a stage?


So then, I assume that even if you believe there to be no God or afterlife, you would still do charity work as you do now?


And yet, you weren't the person I was replying to at the time.

If there is no afterlife, there is no point. It also means that morals are baseless.

As for charity work, some I do for personal reasons, such as working with the First Candle Association; others, I do for religious reasons, such as working with Ripple Productions.

[Nitrus]

If there is no afterlife, there is no point.

Why would there be a point to life if their was an afterlife?

[piratemonkey]

If there is no afterlife, there is no point. It also means that morals are baseless.


Unless you are judged in the afterlife, morals are baseless?

Are you claiming that morals can only be based upon belief in the supernatural?

I'd like to see you justify that belief in any kind of rational way.

There are Billions of people in the world that don't believe in an afterlife.Â*Â*Are you claiming that all of those people can't be moral?

[AlonzoMourning23]

If there is no afterlife, there is no point. It also means that morals are baseless.

As for charity work, some I do for personal reasons, such as working with the First Candle Association; others, I do for religious reasons, such as working with Ripple Productions.


Is this life so horrible to you that it isn't worth living for? And isn't wanting to see the best society for everyone a good basis for morals?

[piratemonkey]

Or the Golden Rule...

Or basic altruism...

Or the desire to see a fair and just society...

Or the rational idea that since there isn't a mythological afterlife, that we should make this life on earth as good as possible for all human beings.

Or...

Belief in the supernatural is FAR from the only basis for morals.Â*Â*Objectively, it could be argued that it is the least supportable with rational debate.

[Anti-Racism]

2. They have an axe to grind about Gawd.


I distrust anyone speaking for God, from Jesus Christ onward. Note the difference a civilized religion like Hinduism has from this backward projection of god onto man.

[Anti-Racism]

Or basic altruism...


Altruism... that I KNOW does not exist.

[firefox]

Logically, yes, it probably doesn't, because everything you do spawns from self-interest, even if it's just that doing something for the benefit of someone else makes you feel good. And that's not a bad thing at all! It's mutually beneficial, and who can say "no" to that?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Its a sad day when they who suggested that Gawd is false.
2. That type of falsehood, is dangerous.
3. I say, you should think before you blasphem Gawd.
4. Sad day for those.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Elrathin]

1. Its a sad day when they who suggested that Gawd is false.



Of course you think it is a sad day. It's always a sad day for religous people when they cannot dupe someone into following their religion.

The bible is the greatest fictional book ever sold. I will give props to it for that.

[Technocrat]

Ok, here's a question for all those religious types--just for shits and giggles.

1. If you found out that, tomorrow, God really didn't exist, would you go out and rape, pillage, beat people to death, and cause needless pain because "morality is supposedly based on God's existence?"

2. If so, you aren't really a moral person. You are only moral to appease God and obey his rules. If you were truely moral, you would act morally regardless of whether or not God is there.

3. If you would act morally whether or not God really did exist, then you don't logically need God for morality.

Indeed, you don't, since often, when polled, Christians will come to many, but not all, of the same morally intuitive conclusions as non-christians (Dawkins 2006).

Dawkins, Richard. The God Delusion. (2006).
Read it.

[Popwing]

1. If you found out that, tomorrow, God really didn't exist, would you go out and rape, pillage, beat people to death, and cause needless pain because "morality is supposedly based on God's existence?"

2. If so, you aren't really a moral person. You are only moral to appease God and obey his rules. If you were truely moral, you would act morally regardless of whether or not God is there.


You say that as if it were a bad thing.

If the only thing keeping some people moral is their belief in God, then why in the name of all things good and moral would you want to challenge that belief?

BTW - I use "You" in the rhetorical sense. I don't mean You you. I don't even know you. Literally.

[Elrathin]

If the only thing keeping some people moral is their belief in God, then why in the name of all things good and moral would you want to challenge that belief?


Because when the religous type try to force their morals on people through law, their religion needs to be challenged.

[piratemonkey]

Also:

Religion, by definition, is irrational. If religion was rational, there would have to be proof and faith wouldn't be necessary.

Because of this religious "morals" are entirely and completely arbitrary, because they are built on mythological ideas. I could start a religion and say that anti-semitism is part of its morality. Why? Because my god told me so.

[Technocrat]

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

If the only thing keeping some people moral is their belief in God, then why in the name of all things good and moral would you want to challenge that belief?

BTW - I use "You" in the rhetorical sense. I don't mean You you. I don't even know you. Literally.



No problem with the you thing. I do that as well.

And yes, I do feel that's a bad thing inherently. For some people, it might make someone good. I don't believe it is actually necessary. What I find bad is that people would actually go out and do all of the above things simply because they wouldn't have a God to punish or reward them.

Someone acting morally shouldn't be based on whether or not someone will hurt them or give them lots of "gifts" in order to do it. That's just bribery and coersion. HOw is that a moral choice? Laurence Kohlberg (iir his first name) points out that this form of stimulus-based punishment/reward type behavior is that of juveniles who haven't gone beyond the first level of moral reasoning. They don't do anything on principle, they do it because they will get something and that's the only reason.

If the only reason you are acting morally is that you will be punished if you don't, that's rather sad in my opinion. I find it sadder that some people would become immoral if they found out God didn't exit. I wouldn't go out and murder people just because a God that said not to doesn't exist. That mentality shows they don't even try to reason about morality and they have no empathy. It's all about the reward and punishment.

[Popwing]

If the only reason you are acting morally is that you will be punished if you don't, that's rather sad in my opinion. I find it sadder that some people would become immoral if they found out God didn't exit. I wouldn't go out and murder people just because a God that said not to doesn't exist. That mentality shows they don't even try to reason about morality and they have no empathy. It's all about the reward and punishment.


Yes, it's all about reward and punishment for some people. But that's a socially acceptable mechansim. That's why we have a penal system. Punishment is a deterent.

We do the same thing when we put our kids on a time out. It deters them from breaking the rule again in the future. Not everyone evolves or maturesat the same rate. Society needs a way to deal with the slowpokes.

Time outs, jail, and hell fire. Same stuff, really.

[Popwing]

If the only thing keeping some people moral is their belief in God, then why in the name of all things good and moral would you want to challenge that belief?


Because when the religous type try to force their morals on people through law, their religion needs to be challenged.


And what in the world does fundie fascism have to do with the question of whether morality is inherent or learned?

[piratemonkey]

Time outs, jail, and hell fire. Same stuff, really.


Rather than treat adults like adults and have them learn why what they did was wrong, just punish them. Treat them like toddlers or stimulus/response animals.

Good plan. And you wonder why some people never grow up. :rolleyes:

[Elrathin]

And what in the world does fundie fascism have to do with the question of whether morality is inherent or learned?


Because morality isn't inherent, it is learned. But it can be taught WITHOUT religion.

[piratemonkey]

There is some evidence that some aspects of morality are hard-wired into the human brain.

"The Moral Animal" by Robert Wright is a great book on the subject.

e.g. In every human culture (and most primate cultures) that has ever existed there have been sanctions against killing the community's children.

This may seem intuitively obvious, but we consider killing our children to be immoral... yet there is very obviously a non-cultural aspect to this sanction, since it exists independent of culture.

Essentially, the human tendency against infanticide is biological trait.

[Elrathin]

e.g. In every human culture (and most primate cultures) that has ever existed there have been sanctions against killing the community's children.


But is that a morality trait, or is that a species/community survival trait since they know the future survival of the species/community is the children? Different perspective and all, it might not be morality that is playing the part but survival of the whole.

[piratemonkey]

e.g. In every human culture (and most primate cultures) that has ever existed there have been sanctions against killing the community's children.


But is that a morality trait, or is that a species/community survival trait since they know the future survival of the species/community is the children? Different perspective and all, it might not be morality that is playing the part but survival of the whole.


I guess that's what I'm saying.

At the interface of Evolutionary Fitness and Morality, there are a lot of common ground. And if evolution is pushing human behavior towards certain actions, and those action effect the evolutionary fitness of individuals then that means those actions are human traits.

[Technocrat]

Yes, it's all about reward and punishment for some people. But that's a socially acceptable mechansim. That's why we have a penal system. Punishment is a deterent.

We do the same thing when we put our kids on a time out. It deters them from breaking the rule again in the future. Not everyone evolves or maturesat the same rate. Society needs a way to deal with the slowpokes.

Time outs, jail, and hell fire. Same stuff, really.


I understand. ABA can be good, but that has little to do with my point.
Good, but that has nothing to do with my point on morality.


My point stands; if you would suddenly delve into a murderous frenzy just because you don't get a reward, you are not of a moral character. It's entirely irrelevant if keeping you with a reward will keep you good. It still shows the shallowness and immorality of your character.

It is NOT a good thing that people simply do what they are told because you give them a reward or threaten them. That doesn't show any moral development at all; no volition. They are doing something soley because you force them to do it. A serial killer might not kill anymore if you continually electrocute him every time he goes near someone. That doesn't mean he is of moral character. That's what I have been arguing.

You don't need God to be moral, and if you do, you really aren't a moral person anyway. None of this is affected by ABA techniques.

[Popwing]

My point stands; if you would suddenly delve into a murderous frenzy just because you don't get a reward, you are not of a moral character. It's entirely irrelevant if keeping you with a reward will keep you good. It still shows the shallowness and immorality of your character.

It is NOT a good thing that people simply do what they are told because you give them a reward or threaten them. That doesn't show any moral development at all; no volition. They are doing something soley because you force them to do it. A serial killer might not kill anymore if you continually electrocute him every time he goes near someone. That doesn't mean he is of moral character. That's what I have been arguing.

You don't need God to be moral, and if you do, you really aren't a moral person anyway. None of this is affected by ABA techniques.


But I agree with you. I'm merely pointing out that, in this way, religion is like the penal system.

You could just as easily say that you don't need laws to be moral, and if you do, then you aren't moral anyway.

Some people are not moral, or, their morals are sufficiently different from our own that they seem amoral or immoral. Neither statements reflect poorly on the subject of God or law.

[Technocrat]

But I agree with you. I'm merely pointing out that, in this way, religion is like the penal system.

You could just as easily say that you don't need laws to be moral, and if you do, then you aren't moral anyway.

Some people are not moral, or, their morals are sufficiently different from our own that they seem amoral or immoral. Neither statements reflect poorly on the subject of God or law.


I see. I misundertood you. I apologize.

To an extent, I agree with you that religion can be a force t keep people moral, but it really depends on the type of religion you are talking about; some religions wouldn't have what I would consider moral principles behind them.

It's a tricky business. Religion can indeed coerse behaviour, but is their version of morality what society really needs? What I don't like is when people say that morality is impossible without God or when they act as if life and morality would be meaningless without an omnipotent deity.

They fall into the Nihilistic slump, I think. But then again, I am not too fond of the morals many religions seem to hold so dear.

I agree; you shouldn't have to have laws to be moral. I sense they are necessary to force people to act well. Ultimately, it is the consequences that matter whether they want to do it or not. Sad, but true.

[askates]

If there is a God, i believe he exists in nature, and the closer you get to nature, the closer you get to God. I also believe that God has no prejudices, I do believe however, things seem to go well as long as you are living your lifes design. I think alot of Jung's philosophys about the collective unconscious are the most prevailant to my lifes situation. Its all about the archetypes baby!

[piratemonkey]

If there is a God, i believe he exists in nature, and the closer you get to nature, the closer you get to God.Â*Â*I also believe that God has no prejudices, I do believe however, things seem to go well as long as you are living your lifes design.Â*Â*I think alot of Jung's philosophys about the collective unconscious are the most prevailant to my lifes situation.Â*Â*Its all about the archetypes baby!


Your ideas about Nature sound similar to Spinoza. I recommend reading some of his work, if you haven't already. I bet you'll enjoy it.