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tony mitra
10-03-2007, 05:15 AM
Another article from The Economist of London, current edition.

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Civil liberties under threat
The real price of freedom
Sep 20th 2007
From The Economist print edition

It is not only on the battlefield where preserving liberty may have to cost many lives

“THEY hate our freedoms.” So said George Bush in a speech to the American Congress shortly after the attacks on America in September 2001. But how well, at home, have America and the other Western democracies defended those precious freedoms during the “war on terror”?

As we intend to show in a series of articles starting this week (see article), the past six years have seen a steady erosion of civil liberties even in countries that regard themselves as liberty's champions. Arbitrary arrest, indefinite detention without trial, “rendition”, suspension of habeas corpus, even torture—who would have thought such things possible?

Governments argue that desperate times demand such remedies. They face a murderous new enemy who lurks in the shadows, will stop at nothing and seeks chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. This renders the old rules and freedoms out of date. Besides, does not international humanitarian law provide for the suspension of certain liberties “in times of a public emergency that threatens the life of the nation”?

There is great force in this argument. There is, alas, always force in such arguments. This is how governments through the ages have justified grabbing repressive new powers. During the second world war the democracies spied on their own citizens, imposed censorship and used torture to extract information. America interned its entire Japanese-American population—a decision now seen to have been a cruel mistake.

There are those who see the fight against al-Qaeda as a war like the second world war or the cold war. But the first analogy is wrong and the moral of the second is not the one intended.

A hot, total war like the second world war could not last for decades, so the curtailment of domestic liberties was short-lived. But because nobody knew whether the cold war would ever end (it lasted some 40 years), the democracies chose by and large not to let it change the sort of societies they wanted to be. This was a wise choice not only because of the freedom it bestowed on people in the West during those decades, but also because the West's freedoms became one of the most potent weapons in its struggle against its totalitarian foes.

If the war against terrorism is a war at all, it is like the cold war—one that will last for decades. Although a real threat exists, to let security trump liberty in every case would corrode the civilised world's sense of what it is and wants to be.

When liberals put the case for civil liberties, they sometimes claim that obnoxious measures do not help the fight against terrorism anyway. The Economist is liberal but disagrees. We accept that letting secret policemen spy on citizens, detain them without trial and use torture to extract information makes it easier to foil terrorist plots. To eschew such tools is to fight terrorism with one hand tied behind your back. But that—with one hand tied behind their back—is precisely how democracies ought to fight terrorism.

Take torture, arguably the hardest case (and the subject of the first article in our series). A famous thought experiment asks what you would do with a terrorist who knew the location of a ticking nuclear bomb. Logic says you would torture one man to save hundreds of thousands of lives, and so you would. But this a fictional dilemma. In the real world, policemen are seldom sure whether the many (not one) suspects they want to torture know of any plot, or how many lives might be at stake. All that is certain is that the logic of the ticking bomb leads down a slippery slope where the state is licensed in the name of the greater good to trample on the hard-won rights of any one and therefore all of its citizens.

Human rights are part of what it means to be civilised. Locking up suspected terrorists—and why not potential murderers, rapists and paedophiles, too?—before they commit crimes would probably make society safer. Dozens of plots may have been foiled and thousands of lives saved as a result of some of the unsavoury practices now being employed in the name of fighting terrorism. Dropping such practices in order to preserve freedom may cost many lives. So be it.
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Sooo, what do you folks think ?

crimzonsol
10-03-2007, 05:29 AM
This should come as no suprise to anyone, everyone should have been able to see that this would happen in the War on Terror. Like the name inplies it is a WAR and if we are to fight it we have to realise that. This is like those that are supprised by the deaths in Iraq or Afghanistan, people usually die in wars. I think that this is a political point rather than an actual point. People should have known this would happen. I think some of the restriction are valid, but the majority are not.

Thats my two cents worth.

Trish
10-03-2007, 04:03 PM
In general, I agree with the article's overall premise. I certainly agree that we cannot become the enemy in order to defeat the enemy. I disagree however on some of the article's presumptions.

"Arbitrary arrest, indefinite detention without trial, “rendition”, suspension of habeas corpus, even torture—who would have thought such things possible?" I have a real problem with how this sentence is couched. Structured as such the author presupposes too much. First, is the list itself. The list mixes documented elements with conjecture, factual elements with misstatements, and defined elements with undefined ones as if they were all one and the same. They are not. Structured in this way, the sentence was constructed to evoke a certain response from the reader predetermined by the author.

I also disagree with the article's equating of terroristic acts with crime. Oranges, apples, and bananas are all fruits, but they are hardly the same. Crimes such as murder, rape, and pedophilia are certainly heinous acts as are terrostic acts such as strapping a bomb to one's back and blowing up a bus or train, or flying a plane into a building. But they are not the same. The scope, intent, and affect are quite different. Crime and terroristic acts may have common elements, but they cannot be addressed as if they were the same things, they aren't.

I also disagree with the description of the war on terror. I disagree with the "if such a war exists" phrase and I disagree with the dismissal of the war on terror's similarity to traditional warfare used in WWII vs. that of the cold war. Again, the author presupposes too much.

The construction of "We accept that letting secret policemen spy on citizens, detain them without trial and use torture to extract information makes it easier to foil terrorist plots." also gives me pause. This sentence was also deliberately structured to evoke a predetermined response in the reader in an effort to support the premise of the article. It overstates and misrepresents factors. As such it detracts from the author's premise rather than supports it.

I certainly agree that human rights are a foundation of civilizaton. And I agree that constant diligence is necessary to ensure that human rights are upheld. The principles are laudable. The presuppositions and emotional manipulations used in the article in support of those principles are not laudable.