Civil Duty

[Athena]

When Jefferson worked hard to establish the US as a democracy, against those who would have modeled the US after England, civil duty was the priority on people's minds, not civil rights, because they are no rights without duty. The Declaration of Independence is also a Declaration of Responsibility, and this the importance of not being slaves or subjects, the liberty to determine right for ourselves and act on it.

[Athena]

Cicero was one of the main inspirations for Jefferson, and here is what Cicero said about civic duty.

"For, in truth, our country has not given us birth and education without expecting to receive some sustenance, as it were, from us in return; nor has it been merely to serve our convenience that she has granted to our leisure a safe refuge and for our moments of repose a calm retreat; on the contrary, she has given us these advantages so that she may appropriate to her own use the greater and more important part of our courage, our talents, and our wisdom, leaving to us for our own private uses only so much as may be left after her needs have been satisfied."

[Labrocca]

Nice post...rep added.

[Defected_King]

ditto

[Athena]

Well, this thread appears to be a dead end, so I will present the opposing thought.

Humans are born in sin. To be saved, they must submit to the will of God. God, has determined some will rule and others will serve the rulers.
The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen.
We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule.

[BoogyMan]

Well, this thread appears to be a dead end, so I will present the opposing thought.

Humans are born in sin.Â*Â*To be saved, they must submit to the will of God.Â*Â*God, has determined some will rule and others will serve the rulers.
The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen.
We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule.Â*Â*


The thread is dead because no-one actually cares to partake in another of your anti-religion screeds, Athena.

[Athena]

Well, this thread appears to be a dead end, so I will present the opposing thought.

Humans are born in sin.Â*Â*To be saved, they must submit to the will of God.Â*Â*God, has determined some will rule and others will serve the rulers.
The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen.
We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule.Â*Â*


The thread is dead because no-one actually cares to partake in another of your anti-religion screeds, Athena.


I don't believe you. Everyone argues religion, it is democracy and philosophy they don't discuss. What is important is the thinking that supports autocratic organizations of man, and the thinking essential to democracy. I am not denying there is a God. I am saying this is a God of reason, and humans are capable of reason, and that is what makes democracy possible. There was a time when Christianity incorperated this thinking into a Christian understanding of God, but since we stopped educating for democracy, that has been lost, creating a problem with Christianity that is the same problem Germany had, when Hitler was elected and the Jews were persecuted.

[ECW]

I'm going to take this thread in a different direction. You mentioned civic duty. Along with that duty comes a call to serve your local community if called. Yep, that dreaded jury duty.

I wonder how many people here would skip out on jury duty if they could do so without penalty as opposed to those who would serve if called upon?

I sat on my second jury in ten years a while back and enjoyed the entire experience. I would go again if selected. It is the price of citizenship and voting that I don't mind paying. How many here can say the same?

[Labrocca]

Nice redirect ECW. Start a new post for it though.

And Athena...no one is arguing with you because no one disagrees. Isn't that nice? :)

[Nathan Brazil]

Cicero was one of the main inspirations for Jefferson, and here is what Cicero said about civic duty.

"For, in truth, our country has not given us birth and education without expecting to receive some sustenance, as it were, from us in return; nor has it been merely to serve our convenience that she has granted to our leisure a safe refuge and for our moments of repose a calm retreat; on the contrary, she has given us these advantages so that she may appropriate to her own use the greater and more important part of our courage, our talents, and our wisdom, leaving to us for our own private uses only so much as may be left after her needs have been satisfied."


So that's where Rousseau came up with that stupid notion. Someone should tell Cicero that the state didn't give him birth, his momma did. And his momma has a responsibility to nurture her child, not the state, and the child owes the momma NOTHING in return.

I really liked that scene in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner", where Sidney Poitier's father starts going off on how he spent so much money that took him so much to earn to put darling Sidney through medical school, and how COULD Sidney then throw it in his face by marrying a white girl?

"That's what you're SUPPOSED TO DO!", Sidney thundered back.

A person owes the state absolutely nothing for his life. It's his life, not the state's.

[Nathan Brazil]

Jury duty? I think it's a riot. I go every time I'm called up. It's loads of fun. Last time I was almost empanelled to sit in judgement on a car jacker who'd threatened his victim with a gun. The previous New's Year's Eve my neighbor was shot and killed by a couple of thugs in a robbery. I heard the shot, didn't see the perps, though. Helped Mohammet rest until the ambulance came. For some reason the accused's defense attorney didn't want me to stick around, though.

=====

On the other side, though, most juries are made up of fools. A drugged unconscious girl is raped by three boys and a pool cue, and the jury can't decide if they did it or not. OJ gets off, and so does Mikey.

I don't think civillian juries are a good idea, if results are what counts. Then again, it's unlikely that any other method would be any better.

At least they've changed the system so a juror doesn't have to spend two weeks going to the courthouse any more.

[kanyon40]

When Jefferson worked hard to establish the US as a democracy, against those who would have modeled the US after England, civil duty was the priority on people's minds, not civil rights, because they are no rights without duty. The Declaration of Independence is also a Declaration of Responsibility, and this the importance of not being slaves or subjects, the liberty to determine right for ourselves and act on it.



Well, this thread appears to be a dead end, so I will present the opposing thought.

Humans are born in sin. To be saved, they must submit to the will of God. God, has determined some will rule and others will serve the rulers.
The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen.
We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule.

The above is what Athena says in regards to the Founding Father's intentions in setting up our democracy, with following it what Athena believes to be the opposite (and also incorrect) understanding. Let's see what the founders say in their own words, shall we? (These quotes are posted in another thread also, but hey, showing Athena up is always fun hehe)

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.� [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]- Patrick Henry

The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.- Thomas Jefferson (Our liberties come from God is a fundamental point of the Christian worldview.)

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.- Thomas Jefferson (Where did this self evidence come from? Especially if they came from a place of rebellion and oppression? It comes from the Christian worldview that affirms that life itself IS valuable and that God is the one from whom such rights flow. You don't see this in the Nihilistic worldview. You don't see it in Islam. You don't see it in eastern religions.)

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]- John Adams and John Hancock

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.�
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.�
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798- John Adams

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson- John Adams

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.� [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]- Samuel Adams

“Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.- John Quincy Adams

" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." - Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel� –Constitutional Convention of 1787- Ben Franklin

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?� [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]- Ben Frankilin

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]- Alexander Hamilton

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."- Alexander Hamilton

“In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"- John Hancock

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.�- Thomas Jefferson

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."- Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.� (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]- Thomas Jefferson

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.�-James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.� [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]- James Madison

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]- James Madison

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.�- Sounds an awful lot like the system we adopted.

Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.- James McHenry, Signer of the Constitution

"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."- Jedediah Morse

“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.�
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.� “The Existence of God--1810�- Thomas Paine (I like this one, it also supports my claim that science comes from the Christian worldview.)

“I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.� “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.� [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]- Benjamin Rush

"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education�
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787

“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.�
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
-Justice Joseph Story

“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.�
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
- Justice Joseph Story

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.�
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]- Noah Webster

Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]- Noah Webster

“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.� [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]- It is worth noting that children were taught basic education by using the bible in colonial and early America.

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."- Goerge Washington, exerpted from his farewell address

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.�- George Washington

“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.� [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]- George Washington



With all that coming from the founders and early Americans' mouths, it would seem that Athena has again misstated the philosophy behind our American Democracy.

[kanyon40]

Crap, part of my last post should be attributed to Athena but I screwed it up. The "Well, this thread appears to be a dead end, so I will present the opposing thought. Humans are born in sin. To be saved, they must submit to the will of God. God, has determined some will rule and others will serve the rulers. The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen. We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule." is also attributed to her.

It is also worth noting, though I won't bore you all with my biblical understandings, that Athena has no problems telling us what the CHristian worldview is (The right order of things is the division of overseers and the overseen. We can not expect too much from those born to serve those better suited to rule." is also attributed to her.) This isn't supported ANYWHERE in scripture and isn't the Christian worldview. Just because those in power in the middle ages up to the reformation pushed this as a way to consolodate their power (as in, they weren't actually Christians concerned for the people, but people with power who knew that the gospel itself afforded too much power and rights to the people so they kept bibles from people's hands so they wouldn't know that and used it as a way to stay in power) doesn't mean that it is the message of scripture, the worldview that Christians actually hold, nor even remotely true. In other words, again, nice generalization, but, sorry, nice try.

[Athena]

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.� [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]- Patrick Henry

If today's Christians had this understanding of being Christian, we would not be arguing, but this is not the present understanding of Christians who are illiterate in Greek and Roman classics, and don't know what Greek and Roman classics have to do with democracy. However, if you and I keep arguing, we might wake up everyone up. I am really thrilled. Yes, Christians did have a very different understanding of Christianity, and democracy, than have today. I hope we more fully rediscover this through our exchange of thoughts.

[kanyon40]

According to the quote of Patrick Henry, it references Jesus, not the Greek and Roman Classics. If ALL of the founding fathers say that they based their view of democracy on Christianity, then as many times as you say that democracy can only come from Athens, you will be wrong. Athens is not responsible for all that is good in this world. If they were, they would have last for more than 200 years of prosperity.

While many of the founding fathers indeed read the greek and roman classics, they somehow still found a way to attribute 100% of their ideas on democracy to their christian worldview. How do you explain that? You continue to say that democracy can't come from Christianity, and yet we live in one that did by the admission of the founders of the democracy, and also with great concern that forgetting the Christian roots (with no mention of Cicero or the like) would in fact lead to the end of the democracy they established. Just because you want Athens to be the central to all that has happened in this world and all that people think, that doesn't make you right, I hate to say.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Thomas Jefferson:

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

From Jefferson's biography:
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'"

"Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."


Thomas Paine:

I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible....

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all."

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder."


John Adams (the second President of the United States):

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.'"

"...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."



Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


James Madison, perhaps the greatest supporter for separation of church and State, and whom many refer to as the father of the Constitution, also held similar views which he expressed in his letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822:

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Benjamin Franklin:

"...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

Ethan Allen:

"Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."


http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6177
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

[kanyon40]

Since you aren't a Christian, how can you tell me what the Christian understanding of today is? I am a priest and a theologian. I am in scripture daily. I interact with Christians (without attacking them or telling them they are idiots) daily. While America doesn't have the undrstanding of Christianity today that the founding fathers had, Christians certainly do. The issue is that America isn't a Christian nation anymore, so it can't hold itself up on the faith and worldview of the founding fathers. This has nothing to do with whether Christianity is the same today as then. It has to do with whether or not our nation has the same respect for the foundations this country was built upon. It is people like you who insist that the Christian foundation wasn't there in the first place that are contributing in full force to the current deterioration of our democracy. This has nothing to do with todays Christian Church. It also has nothing to do with the Greeks or the Romans. It has to do with total abandonment of the founding principles of this nation by this (non-CHristian) nation.

[kanyon40]

My previous post was to Athena, not Alonzomourning. We apparently posted at the same time as each other on this thread.

[AlonzoMourning23]

Also found this:

At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, only 7 percent of the people in the original 13 colonies belonged to a church.


http://nj.npri.org/nj98/09/secthoughts.htm

[AlonzoMourning23]

A famous "quotation" by Patrick Henry:
The first apparent forgery that we ran across was a famous sentence allegedly written by Patrick Henry:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!"

It turns out that Patrick Henry probably never said this. At least, nobody has been able to locate it in any of his surviving papers. It is almost certainly a forgery.


"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

"Washington is known to have made some official statements of public piety, but this is not one of them. Though this assertion is very widely reported to have been said in Washington's Farewell Address (17 September 1796), this is not actually the case, as any search of the documents would reveal. It has also been presented as having been part of his Proclamation on 1795-JAN-01 of 1795-FEB-19 as a day of national Thanksgiving in this form:.....

In the above paragraph the italicized portion appears to be entirely bogus, and there is no actual record of such a statement ever having been made by Washington.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/badquotes.htm

[Athena]

Also found this:

At the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, only 7 percent of the people in the original 13 colonies belonged to a church.


http://nj.npri.org/nj98/09/secthoughts.htm


I have a history book that begins with statements of recommendation from Jefferson and Adams, as it was one of the first books of US ever written. The authority of this book said not only were many citizens protestants, but they were protesting protestantism too. People were questioning truth and this so different from modern day Christians, who are too sure of what they know.

I think the present problem is the result of education for technology which made people think there are right and wrong answers and no in between. If we had liberal education, we do much less arguing and be much less inclined to war.

I have a copy of Washington's farewell address, when I have time I will check it for the quote under consideration.

[Nathan Brazil]

I have a history book that begins with statements of recommendation from Jefferson and Adams, as it was one of the first books of US ever written.Â*Â*The authority of this book said not only were many citizens protestants, but they were protesting protestantism too.Â*Â*People were questioning truth and this so different from modern day Christians, who are too sure of what they know.Â*Â*

Oh, no. You have to hang out at the bible thumping boards, where you still see people arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, if they dance at all, and if they have heads, even.

Each Christian is positive of what they "know", but there's no more of a consensus today than there was then.

The only difference between today and then is that reasonable people who don't believe in any of that nonsense at all aren't pilloried for saying it's nonsense.

[Athena]

Back to the subject of civil duty.Â*Â*At the heart of the Renaissance philosophy of man is the assertion of human dignity.Â*Â*This was the result of growing literacy in Greek and Roman classics and the study of it is called the humanities.Â*Â*Civil duty is tied with this concept of human dignity and because we can choose it freely, is what sperates from the slaves.Â*Â*Our liberty is based on this thinking.Â*Â*It is our pride and honor to perform acts of civil duty.Â*Â*

Starting with Athens, man is created in the image of the gods, because we can learn and reason.Â*Â*Democracy is an imitation of the Gods.Â*Â*God is the provider of all things, so be as a mortal God is to serve humanity.Â*Â*This is a little more than jury duty.Â*Â*The follow adds Christians concepts to the older understanding of God and man, but still serves us well.Â*Â*

"In Pico's view man's greatest claim to noblitiy is that he has no fixed position in the hieracrchy chain of being which philosophers considered the fundamental principle of order in the universe.Â*Â*The traditional structure was a simple one: inanimate matter, plants, animals, men, angels, and God not only exist and live, they also know, each in a manner appropriate to him.Â*Â*Sensible knowledge is proper to animals; rational knowledge is proper to men; intellectual or intuitive knowledge is proper to angels.Â*Â*God's mode of knowing is far above even intellectual knowledge and almost inconceivable to the limited capacites of human beings.Â*Â*Man's median position between animals and angels is reflected in the diverstiy of his cognitive faculties and the complexity of his mental operations.Â*Â*For though his appropriate faculty is reason, he shares sense and imagination with brutes and intellect with angels.Â*Â*He can therefore know in three different ways: through his senses, by reason, and by intuition (helped in this very often by God's grace).Â*Â*Pico took one important and novel step beyond this scheme.Â*Â*Emphasizing both man's capacity to know in different ways and his moral freedom and responsibility, he argued eloquently that man contains in his own nature the possibility of the most varied development, that he can freely choose to become akin to any being, become like a rock or plant or beast if he turns towards evil, like the angels if he turns toward good.Â*Â*Man, that is, defines his own place in the heirarchy of being, rising or falling in it according to the nobility or baseness of what he chooses to know and love.Â*Â*Man is potentially capable of becoming all things- he can be a human bear or lion, dominated by cruelty, lust, greed; or he can keep his head among the stars, his eyes fixed on heavenly things, and become a human angel or even, in certain ecstatic states, his mind rapt in contemplation and separated from the body, a kind of mortal god." The Columbia History of the World edited by John A. Garraty and Peter Gay

From this came a debate of which is better, thought or action.Â*Â*Some argued, and I agree, contemplation is worthless unless benefits life on earth.Â*Â*This is the main reason I am not Buddhist.Â*Â*Civic duty on the other hand is the proper expression of right thought.Â*Â*To put it in Christian terms, this doing God's work on earth.Â*Â*However, this morality comes long before Christianity and is more universal than many Christians want to acknowledge.Â*Â*Democracy, as it originated in Athens, is about learning and reasoning and serving each other.Â*Â*