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ECW
09-22-2007, 07:08 AM
By the army's own standards, Petraeus is a failure but he is now the point man of the Iraq quagmire. Neocons follow him blindly but I'll bet most of them don't even know his track record of failure in Iraq. Well, here ya go!

Fog Facts are facts that are known. They've been published and are easily accessible. They are important enough that they ought to define the political dialogue. Yet somehow they are as unrecognized as if they were top secret. They're lost in the fog.

Gen. Petraeus, for example, arrives with an amazing fog. There are facts in the militaristic mist all around him, that if noticed, should have even Republicans scheduling flights out of Baghdad.

Let's start with his track record.

Our basic Iraq policy has been and continues to be: "We'll stand down when they stand up." That is, when Iraq has an army and a police force that functions and can maintain order on its own.

The American occupation, run by Paul Bremer III under the aegis of the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) disbanded the Iraqi army and, through de-Baathification, took apart the police. As a result, there was no security at the same time that several hundred thousand armed men of military age, with no jobs, were unleashed on the country. Chaos ensued. The occupation, though legally and ethically required to maintain order, and the only people around able to do so, decided not to. It was then that the insurgents arose, forming militias and gangs, to step into the vacuum.

The occupation set out to rebuild the Iraqi Army and Police. So they could stand up and we could stand down.

The man who was given the job was that rising star, Gen. David Petraeus.

He failed.

The Iraqi Army cannot resist the insurgency. The Iraqi police cannot keep order. Indeed, it's far worse than that. Both forces are infiltrated. Some divisions are actually filled with militia members, insurgents and gangsters, dressed up in uniforms. With access to intelligence, arms and equipment. They have engaged in murder, torture and intimidation.

How can we expect the man who failed at doing just part of the job -- training those forces -- to succeed now that he has the whole job?

Nonetheless, Petraeus has a great reputation. US News & World Report said he is "one of the most fascinating people in the United States Army. With a Ph.D. from Princeton University, he is often referred to as the military's warrior-scholar." That's pretty much how everyone talks about him.

After he was sent back to the States from Iraq, he updated the U.S. Army's counterinsurgency manual. It's a public document.

It is well-written. Both the prose and the thinking are clear. It ranges widely through time and cites a variety of sources, including Mao and Clausewitz. It's thoughtful and fairly objective. It is the perfect yardstick to evaluate what is going on Iraq and -- by using Gen. Petraeus' own standards, the U.S. military's official standard -- figure how well we can expect what we're doing to work.

Fog Fact: The counterinsurgency manual recommends a force ratio of between 20 and 25 troops per 1,000 in the population.

The math is very simple. The current estimated population of Iraq is 27,500,000.

The proper size of a counterinsurgency force is therefore a minimum of 550,000, more comfortable at 687,500.

Right now, at the peak of the surge, there are about 169,000 coalition troops (92 percent U.S.) in Iraq. That's 381,000 short of the minimum. Or 506,000 short of the more ideal ratio.

Let us emphasize that this is from a public document. It is official army doctrine. It's available on the Net. Why haven't we seen these numbers on CNN or in the New York Times? Why has no one asked Petraeus about the discrepancy between his own theory and the reality?

Alright, so we're 400,000 or so troops short of a full deck. Does that mean the war can't be "won?"

We no longer claim to be fighting those battles, except perhaps to create security. We have abdicated, saying we've done enough for the Iraqis, now they must do it for themselves. Those goals are so obvious and so unarguably worthwhile that we have to figure that if the Iraq government could achieve them, even attempt them, it would. If it hasn't, it's because they are unable.

If they can't, and we wont, then, according to our official doctrine, we will lose the war. Or, to put it another way, the war that was lost four years ago, under Rumsfeld, Bremer and Tommy Franks, will stay lost.

Fog Fact: How a counterinsurgency war (COIN) is won. Patraeus writes in the manual:

COIN is fought among the populace. Counterinsurgents take upon themselves responsibility for the people's well-being in all its manifestations. These include the following:

Security from insurgent intimidation and coercion, as well as from nonpolitical violence and crime.

Provision for basic economic needs.

Provision of essential services, such as water, electricity, sanitation, and medical care.

Sustainment of key social and cultural institutions.

Other aspects that contribute to a society's basic quality of life.

Neither the Iraq government nor the occupation forces provides any of those things.

America lost those battles within weeks of winning "the war" against Saddam's troops. For a while we claimed we were fighting to win them. But the reconstruction under Paul Bremer was so botched that the quality of life in Iraq today, by these measures, is worse than when Iraq was enduring international sanctions and under the rule of Saddam.

Fog Fact: How a counterinsurgency war is fought. Again, from the Army's manual: The principles of COIN are well known and form the skeleton of this manual. In essence, the counterinsurgent should --

Understand the environment in which the war is being fought.

Isolate the insurgents from their cause and their base.

Secure the population under the rule of law.

Generate intelligence from the population to drive actions against the insurgents.

Apply all elements of national power in unison to support the legitimacy of the host nation's government.

Be prepared for a long commitment, measured in years, if not decades.

Let's start at the bottom, since that should ring some bells: "A long commitment, measured in years if not decades."

Any discussion of "winning" sooner than 2012 should be off the table. A realistic conversation has to be about staying there until 2017, or 2027, or as Bush has suggested with his comparison to Korea, a half of a century and still counting.

Back to the top.

"Understand the environment," means we have to know who we're fighting, why they're fighting, why they have support and what might make them interested in stopping.

For years we have spoken of "the insurgents" as if they're generic figures in a video game, they insurge because they're insurgents. It would do well to call them the Fakarthy Insurgents as in "Who the fakarthy?"

Sometimes we say they're Al Qaeda. By which we mean demons who fight us because they're evil and we're good! That doesn't get us anywhere. It doesn't tell us how to deal with them and besides, most of the insurgency isn't Al Qaeda. It's just a way to wave the bloody flag for the folks at home.

Answering "Who are they?" is a necessary precursor to "isolating the insurgents" and "generating good intelligence." We haven't done the homework, so when we face the test, we must necessarily fail.

I don't doubt that the general is as brilliant as he is billed to be. Right now, I'll bet he and his team are pulling all-nighters, even after long days of fighting, trying to learn Arabic and figure who the enemy is. In a few years, or decades, they'll probably get there, too.

Counterinsurgency FM 3-24 should be required reading for every journalist covering the war, the debate over the war, and the politics of the war. It should also be required for the senators and their staffs who vote 81-0 to put Petraeus in charge of the Iraq operation, and more particularly, those senators who questioned him so ineptly when he delivered his September report.

It's realistic. It pulls the facts from the fog.

When the real facts are made visible, the whole picture changes.

Here's the real picture.

"Winning" the war in Iraq, according to the best minds our military can provide, requires decades. At least half a million pairs of boots on the ground for the next several years. When things settle down, maybe that can be cut to 200,000 or 300,000. That requires a draft. If we, and the Iraqi government, are to acquire the legitimacy that wins against insurgents, we have to live up to our promises to rebuild and to stabilize the country. Before we can do that, we have to replace our own government -- the one that gave us Paul Bremer III, Donald Rumsfeld and Michael "heck of a job, Brownie" Brown -- with one that employs competent people, who insist on getting the job done in return for the money spent.

It's not that the war in Iraq can't be "won." It's that no one, on the right, left or middle, has pulled the facts from the fog -- or read the manual -- and said, "If we want to win, this is what it costs. If you're not willing to pay the price, then you're not really talking about winning."

If we're not talking about winning, then we should be talking about how fast we can get out.

~link~ (http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/63179/?page=1)

preservanation
09-22-2007, 08:29 AM
Some day it will be possible to fart over the Internet, and I will direct it your way.

Labrocca
09-22-2007, 08:42 AM
Some day it will be possible to fart over the Internet, and I will direct it your way.


OMG that's hilarious. My new sig.

As for Patraeus...ok so he is a failure so what. According to you so is Bush and just about every person associated with him.

And that piece has no validity as a real assessment of war. It might as well been written by me. There aren't really any facts in it that can be backed up.

By the army's own standards,

Are you citing that blue text you highlighted about counter-insurgency levels? Who wrote that and when? And the troop levels have been close to this level since day one so if that's the reason for failure it's not any fault of Patraeus. Or does that not matter? It's a hit piece nothing more...target Patraeus. Good job on spreading more attacks on him. You should be a proud partisan as you do your job very well. Congrats sir. I have never seen such blind partisan motivation before except maybe in the neocons you so lovingly hate.

preservanation
09-22-2007, 08:52 AM
Virtue, honesty and " un- adultery " is a virtue.

It is comforting to know that the current occupant holds those ideals.

preservanation
09-22-2007, 02:19 PM
It nice to see the libs movedon from betrayer and traitor, in favor of "failure".
That implies that his effort is flawed more than it does that his character is flawed.
However, they are still wrong.[hr]This anti-American stance from the Dems still baffles me.
When one political party supports defeat, against victory (however one defines it) over our enemies...how can they propose to have the interests of this nation at heart?[hr]

Elrathin
09-22-2007, 03:05 PM
When one political party supports defeat, against victory (however one defines it) over our enemies...how can they propose to have the interests of this nation at heart?[hr]


Leaving Iraq is not supporting defeat, it is supporting the Iraqis to stand up. I have no doubt in my mind that if we left, AQ would be leaving soon after because the Iraqis and neighboring countries wouldn't stand for it.

ECW
09-22-2007, 04:37 PM
Some day it will be possible to fart over the Internet, and I will direct it your way.


Merely proving that you are full of hot air and smelly gas, nothing more. Certainly not a reasoned response to what I posted.


As for Patraeus...ok so he is a failure so what. According to you so is Bush and just about every person associated with him.

Isn't that a sad commentary on the people who are leading this nation, that they are so blinded by their politics that people are appointed based on how much they agree with the president and not on how well they do their jobs? Didn't you have enough with Brown as head of FEMA or Gonzales an the AG or State Department IG, Howard Krongard? When you hire your political buddies and not THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB you get these kind of results. "Patraeus is a failure...so what?" Yep. Just who the neocons and George Bush want fronting our war effort.

And that piece has no validity as a real assessment of war. It might as well been written by me. There aren't really any facts in it that can be backed up.

I guess you missed this part of the article:

Fog Facts are facts that are known. They've been published and are easily accessible. They are important enough that they ought to define the political dialogue. Yet somehow they are as unrecognized as if they were top secret. They're lost in the fog.

I'll be happy to back up anything in this article that you are having trouble believing and want a citation for. That's how I work. Ask Boogy. I've pulled enough citations on him to run circles around him. I can do the same for you, my friend. :dizzy:

By the army's own standards,

Are you citing that blue text you highlighted about counter-insurgency levels? Who wrote that and when?

Here's the relevant part of the article that you may have glossed over before you typed that question:

After he was sent back to the States from Iraq, he updated the U.S. Army's counterinsurgency manual. It's a public document.

It is well-written. Both the prose and the thinking are clear. It ranges widely through time and cites a variety of sources, including Mao and Clausewitz. It's thoughtful and fairly objective. It is the perfect yardstick to evaluate what is going on Iraq and -- by using Gen. Petraeus' own standards, the U.S. military's official standard -- figure how well we can expect what we're doing to work.

And the troop levels have been close to this level since day one so if that's the reason for failure it's not any fault of Patraeus. Or does that not matter?

It matters because he writes the book on how to defeat the insurgency and when he is put in charge of defeating that insurgency, he fails to follow his own advice simply so he can be Bush's frontman. That stuff about being an "asskissing little chickenshit" that General Fallon said about him rings more and more true as time goes on. If he were truly interested in winning the war and not just being a shill for George Bush he would be telling Bush what he NEEDS to hear, not what he WANTS to hear.

It's a hit piece nothing more...target Patraeus. Good job on spreading more attacks on him... I have never seen such blind partisan motivation before except maybe in the neocons you so lovingly hate.


First, let me correct your assertion that I hate someone or a group of someones. I don't hate neocons. I think that as a group they are hate merchants, prevaricators, truth muddlers, and character assassins but that doesn't make me hate them, only feel sorry for them. I don't trust them in any way, shape or form because they have not earned it. But hatred is not part of the equation. I leave the hating to the neocons. Now that we have cleared that up...

A hit piece is a journalistic article without facts or basis in truth. The author, Larry Beinhart, pulls his assertions right from the Army's counterinsurgency manual, the one that Patraeus himself wrote. If I can damn you using your own words and your own actions to do so, what other proof do you need?

You should be a proud partisan as you do your job very well. Congrats sir.

Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm glad you noticed.

Stoner
09-22-2007, 04:59 PM
The libbies are showing their blind, political blindness again. It's the lib mantra...don't agree with someone's expert opinion? Attack him. That's what this article is. Nothing more, nothing less. This has to be the most bias op-ed piece I have ever seen. Sounds like something right out of Kos.

Patreaus is obviously not a failure. In fact he is a very decorated and knowledgeable general. Libbies are just mad at him because his report didn't mesh with the lib agenda (fail in Iraq).

ECW
09-22-2007, 05:35 PM
The libbies are showing their blind, political blindness again. It's the lib mantra...don't agree with someone's expert opinion? Attack him. That's what this article is. Nothing more, nothing less. This has to be the most bias op-ed piece I have ever seen. Sounds like something right out of Kos.

Patreaus is obviously not a failure. In fact he is a very decorated and knowledgeable general. Libbies are just mad at him because his report didn't mesh with the lib agenda (fail in Iraq).


Shooting The Messenger again, eh, Stoner? If you had a solitary fact to bolster your argument, you would have used it. You did not. You can repeat the RNC talking points all you want (lib agenda, fail in Iraq, Kos) but it fails to substantiate your argument.

Liberals are mad at Patraeus because he showed himself to be nothing more than a shill for Bush who has no more credibility in the pursuit of this war. When you associate yourself with a failing policy (even when you wrote the book on how to win but aren't using it) you become the failure as well.

Cheerleading For Failure is the new neocon strategy because they have nothing else. Here's your pom poms: http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/BaronVonEsslingen/small_pom_pom.gif http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/BaronVonEsslingen/small_pom_pom.gif http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d36/BaronVonEsslingen/small_pom_pom.gif

Come back when you have something constructive to debate instead of just whining.

Buck Laser
09-22-2007, 07:02 PM
Virtue, honesty and " un- adultery " is a virtue.

It is comforting to know that the current occupant holds those ideals.

Virtue? Honesty? The word you're looking for is "fidelity." I guess one outta three isn't bad, though. :madlaugh:

Labrocca
09-22-2007, 07:47 PM
It matters because he writes the book on how to defeat the insurgency and when he is put in charge of defeating that insurgency, he fails to follow his own advice simply so he can be Bush's frontman.

And how is this the failure of Patraeus? If you agree that he needs 500k troops to win then why aren't you supporting that decision and helping to call for more troops? If Bush doesn't want to or can't give Patraeus 500k troops then it's a BUSH failure. A good soldier works with the tools he is provided.

As for Patraeus being an ass-kisser...exactly how is that bad? How does he get what he needs in Iraq with cozying up to the administration? I have ass-kissed most of my bosses even when I didn't like them or thought they were wrong. In the end I became the boss most of the time for my efforts and then I could implement my own policy. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Isn't that a sad commentary of the people of this nation, that they are so blinded by their politics that people are judging soldiers based on how much they disagree with the president and not on how well they do their jobs?

Pogo
09-22-2007, 09:52 PM
Isn't that a sad commentary of the people of this nation, that they are so blinded by their politics that people are judging soldiers based on how much they disagree with the president and not on how well they do their jobs?

If service in the military is really about defending the republic then doing their job must entail speaking truth to power, and if power chooses not to listen, it is loyalty to the republic, rather than the president, that should dictate the proper course of action.

ECW
09-22-2007, 10:12 PM
It matters because he writes the book on how to defeat the insurgency and when he is put in charge of defeating that insurgency, he fails to follow his own advice simply so he can be Bush's frontman.

And how is this the failure of Patraeus? If you agree that he needs 500k troops to win then why aren't you supporting that decision and helping to call for more troops? If Bush doesn't want to or can't give Patraeus 500k troops then it's a BUSH failure. A good soldier works with the tools he is provided.

It's the failure of Patraeus because when he wasn't shilling for the Chimp, he wrote a manual that explained in detail how things ought to go but when he becomes the commander, he ignores his own advice and does what the military genius George Walker Bush wants him to do.

I was not on this board when the war broke out. I wish I would have kept the post I submitted in February of 2003 (on another board) before the war started because I called for exactly that: several hundred thousand troops because we used that many to pacify and conquer Kuwait, a country FIFTEEN times smaller than Iraq. Bush was trying to say he could do it with 100,000 troops, about one fifth what we took Kuwait back with. The math did not add up then and it does not add up now. Once General Shinseki got the sack for telling Congress the same thing, the writing was on the wall: speak up and get fired.

Here's some testimony to that regard.

When I was commander of CENTCOM, we had a plan for an invasion of Iraq, and it had specific numbers in it. We wanted to go in there with 350,000 to 380,000 troops. You didn't need that many people to defeat the Republican Guard, but you needed them for the aftermath. We knew that we would find ourselves in a situation where we had completely uprooted an authoritarian government and would need to freeze the situation: retain control, retain order, provide security, seal the borders to keep terrorists from coming in.

When I left in 2000, General Franks took over. Franks was my ground-component commander, so he was well aware of the plan. He had participated in it; those were the numbers he wanted. So what happened between him and Rumsfeld and why those numbers got altered, I don't know, because when we went in we used only 140,000 troops, even though General Eric Shinseki, the army commander, asked for the original number.~link~ (http://www.parapundit.com/archives/002455.html)

''I would say that what's been mobilized to this point -- something on the order of several hundred thousand soldiers -- are probably, you know, a figure that would be required,'' General Shinseki said. ''Assistance from friends and allies would be helpful.''

He continued, ''It takes a significant ground-force presence to maintain a safe and secure environment, to ensure that people are fed, that water is distributed, all the normal responsibilities that go along with administering a situation like this.''~link~ (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9902E0DD143CF935A15751C0A9659C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2)

As for Patraeus being an ass-kisser...exactly how is that bad? How does he get what he needs in Iraq with cozying up to the administration? I have ass-kissed most of my bosses even when I didn't like them or thought they were wrong. In the end I became the boss most of the time for my efforts and then I could implement my own policy. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Ass kissers don't have a mind of their own. They are shills. Talking monkeys. Hacks. It's exactly the point I made earlier about putting qualified people in the correct posts. Asskissers don't count. Patraeus in NEVER going to be the boss because he's a military officer. Bush is the boss. What Patraeus wrote about needing and what Bush is going to do on the ground in Iraq are two different things because Patraeus does not have the balls to stand up for his own words, his own manual on how this war should be fought. The difference between theory and practice is as wide as the Grand Canyon.

Isn't that a sad commentary of the people of this nation, that they are so blinded by their politics that people are judging soldiers based on how much they disagree with the president and not on how well they do their jobs?


And that's my point. Patraeus ISN'T doing his job which should be giving the best possible advice to the CIC, whether he wants to hear it or not. Point to the manual, General. Hand it to Bush and tell him, "it's all in here." He did not do that. He turned into a shill to promote his own career, to prolong his minute in the spotlight. Disgraceful.

Let me know when you want to talk about what a mess he made in Mosul and how he f ucked up training Iraqi troops. More proof of a failure that your boy George had little to do with but is all on Patraeus' hands.

ECW
09-24-2007, 05:21 AM
The nails in the coffin of the vaunted General Patraeus come from his history in Iraq. This certainly not a record of accomplishment by any means. The fact that he hasn't been brought up on any charges just goes to show you how well protected he is. Had a Democrat done any of these things Alberto Gonzales and his partisan US Attorneys would have descended like a flock of vultures to rip him to shreds. Instead, he is held up as a respectable "hero" of the war.

For a soldier whose military abilities and experience are so lauded by the White House, General Petraeus has had a surprisingly controversial career in Iraq. His critics hold him at least partly responsible for three debacles: the capture of Mosul by the insurgents in 2004; the failure to train an effective Iraqi army and the theft of the entire Iraqi arms procurement budget in 2004-05.

General Petraeus went to Iraq during the invasion of 2003 as commander of the 101st Airborne Division and had not previously seen combat. He first became prominent when the 101st was based in Mosul, in northern Iraq, where he pursued a more conciliatory line toward former Baathists and Iraqi army officers than the stated US policy.

His efforts were deemed successful. When the 101st left in February 2004, it had lost only 60 troops in combat and accidents. General Petraeus had built up the local police by recruiting officers who had previously worked for Saddam Hussein's security apparatus.

Although Mosul remained quiet for some months after, the US suffered one of its worse setbacks of the war in November 2004 when insurgents captured most of the city. The 7,000 police recruited by General Petraeus either changed sides or went home. Thirty police stations were captured, 11,000 assault rifles were lost and $41m (£20m) worth of military equipment disappeared. Iraqi army units abandoned their bases.

The general's next job was to oversee the training of a new Iraqi army. As head of the Multinational Security Transition Command, General Petraeus claimed that his efforts were proving successful. In an article in The Washington Post in September 2004, he wrote: "Training is on track and increasing in capacity. Infrastructure is being repaired. Command and control structures and institutions are being re-established." This optimism turned out be misleading; three years later the Iraqi army is notoriously ineffective and corrupt.

General Petraeus was in charge of the Security Transition Command at the time that the Iraqi procurement budget of $1.2bn was stolen. "It is possibly one of the largest thefts in history," Iraq's Finance Minister, Ali Allawi, said. "Huge amounts of money disappeared. In return we got nothing but scraps of metal."

Mr Khadim is sceptical that the "surge" is working. Commenting on the US military alliance with the Sunni tribes in Anbar province, he said: "They will take your money, but when the money runs out they will change sides again."
link (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2956422.ece
)

Labrocca
09-24-2007, 06:23 AM
So do you support doubling or tripling the troop level in Iraq?

And according to you because Patreaus hasn't been fired that must mean he is a failure. You are really stretching the definition of failure. Call him a shill or asskisser if you want but neither of those make a person a failure. He can't be a failure simply because he can't force Bush to give him an additional 300k troops. As you say..it's either he demands them and places a public stink only to get fired...or he does the best job he can. Neither of those options make him a failure.

Patraeus is just simply under attack for being associated with Bush. The left will only be satisfied with a General willing to commit treason by disobeying direct orders from the president. I am sure if he did that he would suddenly be the hero the left wishes for.

Drocket
09-24-2007, 06:59 AM
The left will only be satisfied with a General willing to commit treason by disobeying direct orders from the president. I am sure if he did that he would suddenly be the hero the left wishes for.

What "the left" wants is a general willing to put the needs of the troops above the desires of a president who cares for little beyond saving his 'legacy'. So yeah, you're pretty much correct.

Labrocca
09-24-2007, 07:20 AM
What "the left" wants is a general willing to put the needs of the troops above the desires of a president who cares for little beyond saving his 'legacy'. So yeah, you're pretty much correct.


And exactly how does a General do that? Does he beat up the president or something? Explain how a general places the needs of his troops about the desires of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF. One mistep and you can either be fired or jailed for treason. And what good would any General be if he was removed? How does that serve the troops?

Where is the logic in all this? It's like a shoot the messenger type of deal. Patraeus can't give orders to Bush about his troop levels.

Drocket
09-24-2007, 07:44 AM
And exactly how does a General do that? Does he beat up the president or something? Explain how a general places the needs of his troops about the desires of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

For one, stop giving misleading testimony in front of Congress about how wonderfully things are going.

ECW
09-25-2007, 03:52 AM
So do you support doubling or tripling the troop level in Iraq?

Bearing in mind that I did not support this war from the outset because it was a distraction from our goal of bringing OBL to justice in Afghanistan, beginning the war in Iraq with 500k would have been a smarter plan because winning the peace was all important. Bush & Company did not feel that way. Now that Iraq has disintegrated into a sectarian conflict with ethnic cleansing and an untrusty, well-armed military, inserting 500K of our troops is foolhardy. It is way too late to fix what we broke and the smartest thing would be for us to leave. The sooner the better.

And according to you because Patreaus hasn't been fired that must mean he is a failure. You are really stretching the definition of failure. Call him a shill or asskisser if you want but neither of those make a person a failure. He can't be a failure simply because he can't force Bush to give him an additional 300k troops. As you say..it's either he demands them and places a public stink only to get fired...or he does the best job he can. Neither of those options make him a failure.

Patraeus is a failure NOT because he hasn't been fired but because of his actions thus far. To wit:

1)the capture of Mosul by the insurgents in 2004;
2)the failure to train an effective Iraqi army;
3)the theft of the entire Iraqi arms procurement budget in 2004-05
4)writing the manual on counterinsurgency and not following it once assuming command

If Bush truly listens to his generals on the ground, something doesn't wash here. He either isn't listening to what Patraeus wrote and what plan he laid out for success in countering the insurgency OR Patraeus abandoned his plan in exchange for time in the spotlight as Bush's shill which means Patraeus rolled over on his own plan.

Patraeus is just simply under attack for being associated with Bush. The left will only be satisfied with a General willing to commit treason by disobeying direct orders from the president. I am sure if he did that he would suddenly be the hero the left wishes for.

I was satisfied with General Shinseki. He spoke his mind and got fired for his trouble. Most military experts now state that Shinseki was right about what needed to happen in Iraq in 2003. Your statement that "The left will only be satisfied with a General willing to commit treason by disobeying direct orders from the president" is bunkum. Now the left will only be satisfied by a general who will get us the hell out of this mess. Patraeus ain't the guy.

Bush doesn't listen to his generals. That much is clear. Bush tells his generals how this will be fought and they either do it or they are replaced with someone who will. Patraeus hasn't been replaced yet. That makes him a shill. And a failure.

Labrocca
09-25-2007, 04:00 AM
Patraeus is a failure NOT because he hasn't been fired but because of his actions thus far. To wit:

1)the capture of Mosul by the insurgents in 2004;
2)the failure to train an effective Iraqi army;
3)the theft of the entire Iraqi arms procurement budget in 2004-05
4)writing the manual on counterinsurgency and not following it once assuming command

Better debate points to back up your failure claim imho than simply the numbers of soldiers.

ECW
09-25-2007, 04:16 AM
Patraeus is a failure NOT because he hasn't been fired but because of his actions thus far. To wit:

1)the capture of Mosul by the insurgents in 2004;
2)the failure to train an effective Iraqi army;
3)the theft of the entire Iraqi arms procurement budget in 2004-05
4)writing the manual on counterinsurgency and not following it once assuming command

Better debate points to back up your failure claim imho than simply the numbers of soldiers.


I'm just not sure what the heck you just said there. Come again?