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PittsburghAfterDark
07-07-2006, 01:42 PM
I don't think anything in my lifetime will compare to the overwhelming changes that took place in Eastern Europe in the fall of 1989. I was just a teenager in college at the time and remember watching the images of the Berlin Wall coming down and being completely dumbfounded by the speed at which Communism fell. The joy on the faces of all Germans, Berliners in particular, was something to behold.

In 1982 I spent a large portion of the summer in West Germany with a family my father had met when he was in the military. In an unlikely twist we have remained lifelong friends with them, both of their sons came to the U.S. as exchange students for a year and both were present for a recent family wedding. They're, for all intensive purposes, cousins and family.

During that summer we saw many German cities, mostly in the West as travel to the East was very difficult for Americans and West German nationals. This was the height of the Cold War. We were all spies.

On our trip from West Germany to West Berlin we had to cross a few hundred miles of East German territory. There were only three highways that crossed the East from the West. Even though they were all in East Germany they Communists had demanded the West Germans pay for the roads to connect to Berlin and maintain them. They were, however, policed by East German police, military and the dreaded Stasi, a quasi FBI-CIA-Secret Police organization that really had no Western equivilent.

When we crossed the frontier we were given a time stamp card by the border guards. When we crossed the checkpoint into West Berlin we were required to present them again. If the trip took more than 4-5 hours you would be detained and questioned, possibly even held until representatives of the American or West German embassies and consulates came to have you released.

I want to say, the border was extremely threatening looking at our crossing point. There were lots of wide open fields and warning signs planted in all of them. "Minen" was printed on all of them. You can guess the translation. The border was encased in double, in some cases triple, chain link fences 15-20 feet high seperated by 5-10 meters. The tops all were laced with conertino or razor wire.

The guard towers were another 15-20 feet above the imposing fences. The tallest being roughly 50 meters high. There was no architectual difference between them and what you may recognize from footage of supermax prisons here. Speaks volumes to the relative strength of the Communist/Socialist system.

Once in West Berlin I was struck at how magnificent a city it was/is. New York, Paris, London and Amsterdam had nothing on this place. However when you'd get to sections of it you'd see it, the Berlin Wall. It was an ugly ediface to the failure of the Communist system that could ever be designed.

We went to the Checkpoint Charlie museum (British, American and French checkpoint from West to East.) and saw the history of the wall being built, how people had escaped and yes, how people had died trying to reach freedom in the West. When crossing over into East Berlin through CC we were stopped by the Russian, not East German, but Russian soldiers. Not even the Soviets trusted "their" Germans enough to guard this hotspot of East/West flashpoints during the Cold War.

At one point we had already surrendered our passports for inspection by the Soviet army, possibly the KGB as well. Another soldier appeared and asked for our papers while we were waiting. Not being able to understand our passports had already been taken for inspection my father handed him his U.S. Steel employee ID card and my mother gave him a Pennsylvania drivers license. My brother and I both produced our local library cards. Believe it or not, despite 3 seperate forms of ID for 4 people, the soldier was satisfied. Our library cards didn't even have photographs on them but the fact that they had names and numbers on them seemed to be enough.

Once in East Berlin we went to see what few sites there were worth seeing. It must be noted, we were forced to exchange 50 West German marks per person (Roughly $20 in exchange rates at the time.) for worthless East German currency. This turns funny later on in the day.

We went to the capital, to see the war memorials the biggest of which was a tribute to Soviet soldiers that dwarfed any monument you can imagine. The Soviets made the East Germans pay for it and lay an apology plaque at the base for starting WW II. Since the wall fell the Germans refused to maintain it. It then went into a very strange state of being overgrown like an almost ancient culture you'd find in a jungle.

For lunch we ate at a restaurant in a residential neighborhood as opposed to a main thuroughfare. The reason was simple, all East German restaurants had the same items on their menu and all had the same price. There was no good or bad restaurant, they were all the same and all equally bland. I think the event that struck me most that day was the utter amazement and fascination by passers by to our cars. By western standards they were nothing. A 4 cylinder Fiat no bigger than a VW Rabbit and a Datsun station wagon. To the East Berliners they might as well have been spaceships.

At the end of our alloted 5 hour "visitation period" in the East we decided to spend our money before it became worthless going back West. Try as we might we couldn't spend it at a restaurant. The prices were fixed to the wages of East Germans and we had pretty much exchanged a month's worth of an average workers salary.

So we went shopping. Now the Communists have an awfully strange idea of what passed as "world class" shopping facilities. The best store in the country, and we were told the Eastern Bloc, was a 6 story K-Mart like stores. No, not the nice new Super K-Marts but the most barren, run down, must not have received a shipment of anything since 1991 type K-Mart complete with flickering lights, chipped tile and crappy fixtures. We couldn't find much to buy and couldn't even find anything we would want.

Imagine having $50 and not being able to part with it. Not a problem we can relate to as Americans.

Running out of time we decided to get nothing. Instead one of the German boys and myself took off running through an underground tunnel under a main square to get back to our family meeting points. Think two running 12 year olds wouldn't have anything to worry about in a national capital? We were shouted at by a East German policemen to halt, to the sound of a clicking AK variant. We did. My German friend explained to him that we were late meeting our families and our day visas were going to expire. He let us go. Thank God. Otherwise? Call the embassy, your kid is being detained for running in a public place.

Shortly before our familes met up we were sitting around waiting. Just the 4 kids, 2 from each family. We all ran into the same problem, we couldn't spend our money. A woman with a baby in tow was passing by our small group. Our Germans said that even by East German standards she was poor. We gave her all of our money. Probably around 200 East German marks if memory serves. She was dumbfounded that 4 kids were giving her this much money. She said she didn't make that much in 6 months.

Imagine that. Imagine getting stopped by someone on the street that may hand you $15,000. That's what we did and to us it meant nothing. That was our good deed for the day.

Crossing back over, the Germans had another checkpoint from the Americans, the father of our host family was strip searched. We were held up for another hour and a half by the Soviets who inspected the trunk, ran a mirror under the car, tapped the gas tank (Another way people had escaped. False gas tanks.) and of course, asked for our papers 3 seperate times at three stops going through the checkpoint. I was honestly scared we weren't going to be allowed through.

Once on the Western side, in a story repeated to me countless times by family in the last 20 something years, I jumped out of the car pumped my arms in the air and screamed "We're free! We're free!". To which my dad said, SHUT UP! they have our license plate number and we still have to recross East Germany to get back to the West.

It's that three days in Berlin and my day in East Berlin that have forever imbedded in my brain that socialism/communism can never be trusted, never respected, never just an alternative to capitalism but a force of pure evil that mankind has yet to fully learn from. I thanked God Ronald Wilson Reagan was meeting with the leaders of Britain, France and West Germany to propose strengthening defenses against a, thankfully, never realized Soviet/Warsaw Pact threat.

I had seen the face of a prison state as a tourist and hated it. I couldn't possibly imagine what 100's of millions lived with for 70 years.

I thank God that Europe is finally free from the terrifying images embedded in my mind as a young American boy.

RedKnight
07-07-2006, 02:06 PM
I'm sorry that you had such a rough time. I myself feel however that Communism, while in practise it may become corrupt, in principle it is just and ideal. So for what it's worth, as a Communist I apologise for any hardship, which you or anyone else had to go through.

PittsburghAfterDark
07-07-2006, 02:33 PM
http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/berlin/treptowerstatue.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/berlin/treptowerviewforward.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/isanders_2000/berlin/treptowerviewback.jpg
This last image is actually a mass grave.??The Soviets did not give their soldiers individual burials that fell in the Battle of Berlin in April/May 1945.??They were all put in a central location.??This field contains countless thousands of war dead.

http://pics.livejournal.com/forestjay/pic/0004aw5h/s640x480
One of many Berlin Soviet memorials built and paid for by Germans

Alonzo
07-07-2006, 06:10 PM
I agree with your sentiments on communism as has been practiced. I do think communism is one of those things that simply works on paper, though even then I'm not a supporter. But, when I look at eastern europe now, with the corruption and increasingly autocratic russia, the worsening poverty in many for satellites, I think the way it happened was wrong. A slower, more gradual process was needed to transition to a more capitalistic and democratic system without the results we now have throughout much of eastern europe. East Germany was lucky, while they have massive unemployment and loss of businesses, they have West Germany to support them. Many other nations weren't so lucky.

Nathan Brazil
07-07-2006, 08:52 PM
What a compelling story. Thanks.

Remember what F. Hayek said: socialism paves the road to serfdom.

Athena
07-08-2006, 11:58 PM
Hum sounds like the wall the some US citizens want between Mexico and the US, and even going into Canada, people have to have ID. The strip search has become a possibility when flying in the US. Just wait awhile, the way the US is going it will make your story of the communist seem ameturish. With a government able to track its people through bank accounts and medical services, and the government being the largest employer, in another 50 years, the democracy we were may be forgotten.

Nathan Brazil
07-09-2006, 07:24 AM
Hum sounds like the wall the some US citizens want between Mexico and the US,

Not again. Okay. For those of you that simply refuse to understand socialism and communism, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN. That means, for the really really hard of reading, that the Commies didn't want to be embarassed by any more peole fleeing their People's Paradise to live in the corrupt and decadent west. So they built a wall of concrete, barbed wire, dogs, and bullets, to keep their own people inside.

The wall proposed on the Mexican border isn't proposed to keep Americans in. GOT IT? It's proposed to make it easier to keep invading hordes OUT.

Now, class, are you able to tell others the difference between the Berlin Wall and any proposed wall on the US-Mecico border, or will you continue with inane and inaccurate representations of such a proposal as a "Berlin Wall"?


and even going into Canada, people have to have ID.??The strip search has become a possibility when flying in the US.??Just wait awhile, the way the US is going it will make your story of the communist seem ameturish.??With a government able to track its people through bank accounts and medical services, and the government being the largest employer, in another 50 years, the democracy we were may be forgotten.?

Maybe we'll become a Republic again someday? Clearly being a democracy is a bad idea.

Nitrus
07-09-2006, 02:01 PM
I thought the US and UK were planning to establish a democracy in all nations of the world.

-N

RedKnight
07-09-2006, 05:21 PM
What a compelling story.??Thanks.

Remember what F. Hayek said: socialism paves the road to serfdom.


I'd like to see Hayek have to live as a serf, then maybe he's know the difference between socialism and feudalism. Feudalism was what Russia had before Communism.

Nathan Brazil
07-10-2006, 01:26 PM
What a compelling story.??Thanks.

Remember what F. Hayek said: socialism paves the road to serfdom.


I'd like to see Hayek have to live as a serf, then maybe he's know the difference between socialism and feudalism. Feudalism was what Russia had before Communism.


Slavery was what Russians enjoyed under Communism.

Athena
07-11-2006, 12:46 PM
I thought the US and UK were planning to establish a democracy in all nations of the world.

-N


Yes and no.??Unfortunately, condensending Republicans, do not have a good understanding of democracy, so they can not spread it. Their chosen leaders just use the word to excuse the wars they engage for monetary gain.??

However, democracy, as it originates through philosophy, is behind everything good in the United States.??Democracy is like religion, in that it is a way of life with specific principles and values.??Like religion it must be taught to be learned, and those who do not learn of democracy, can not manifest it. The US stopped educating for democracy when it replaced its liberal education with Germany's model of education for technology, for military and industrial purpose.??Now the US is what it defended its democracy against, and Republicans do not understand this, but are patriotic because the US is rich and has military might, not because it lead the world to democracy.??Just like our world war enemy loved Germany and thought they were superior and had the right to rule, these Republicans love their country for the wrong reason!

Nathan Brazil
07-11-2006, 08:50 PM
However, democracy, as it originates through philosophy, is behind everything good in the United States.

That's funny, Ben Franklin described democracy as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.??The strongest prohibitions in the Constitution are on the Congress, which is the only partially democratic body in the government.??To further restrict what this "democracy" can do, the ratification of the Constitution was dependent on the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments, which provide a very comprehensive list of what cannot be done in this "democracy".

The majority plus one cannot vote to stifle religious or political expression or the press.

The marjority plus one cannot vote to take away a man's guns.

The majority plus one cannot hold a man without an indictment.

Etc.

No, "democracy" forms a means of plumbing the will of the people, but unlike a real democracy, that will cannot be expressed in all cases.

That's why this country is a republic, not a democracy, even though it's a republic with democratic leanings, which is it's big failing, since the democracy part is oozing around the containment of the Constitution and wreaking havoc with freedom.

Oh...and individual freedom is the basis for everything good in this country.

Athena
07-12-2006, 10:39 AM
However, democracy, as it originates through philosophy, is behind everything good in the United States.

That's funny, Ben Franklin described democracy as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.??The strongest prohibitions in the Constitution are on the Congress, which is the only partially democratic body in the government.??To further restrict what this "democracy" can do, the ratification of the Constitution was dependent on the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments, which provide a very comprehensive list of what cannot be done in this "democracy".

The majority plus one cannot vote to stifle religious or political expression or the press.

The marjority plus one cannot vote to take away a man's guns.

The majority plus one cannot hold a man without an indictment.

Etc.

No, "democracy" forms a means of plumbing the will of the people, but unlike a real democracy, that will cannot be expressed in all cases.

That's why this country is a republic, not a democracy, even though it's a republic with democratic leanings, which is it's big failing, since the democracy part is oozing around the containment of the Constitution and wreaking havoc with freedom.

Oh...and individual freedom is the basis for everything good in this country.



I think if you study democracy as it originated in Athens and passed through Rome, and reappeared through philosophy in the Age of Reason, you will understand democracy is rule by reason, as oppose to religious despots or monarchies and rule by force.

In the beginning of the US Jefferson struggled hard against those who would have modeled our government after England and this is what resulted in the Federalist Papers which were in opposition to Jefferson.
Jefferson was able to win so much by insisting the will of the people would never tolerate the autocratic heirarchy of England and England's Anglican church. It is this will of the people, or as Lincoln said, "government of the people, by the people, for the people", that makes the US a democracy. Lincoln was quoting Pericles of Athens when he said that.

Jefferson owned over 40 books written by Cicero, a Roman statesman. Cicero explained the combination government that is a combination of kingship (president), aristocracy (the supreme court in the US) and democracy (power of the people). Our republic is a combination of all three, and the democracy part is vital to our liberty and freedom and a just government. It is the democracy part we bring to the world.

"We exist and are quoted as standing proofs that a government so modeled as to rest continually on the will of the whole society is a practicable government. Were we to break in pieces, it would damp the hopes and the efforts of the good and give triumph to those of the bad [throughout] the whole enslaved world. As members, therefore, of the universal society of mankind and standing in high and responsible relation with them, it is our sacred duty to suppress passion among ourselves and not to blast the confidence we have inspired of proof that a government of reason is better than one of force." --Thomas Jefferson to Richard Rush, 1820. ME 15:284

utahraptor
07-12-2006, 10:46 AM
Hum sounds like the wall the some US citizens want between Mexico and the US, and even going into Canada, people have to have ID.??The strip search has become a possibility when flying in the US.??Just wait awhile, the way the US is going it will make your story of the communist seem ameturish.??With a government able to track its people through bank accounts and medical services, and the government being the largest employer, in another 50 years, the democracy we were may be forgotten.??


This is beyond silly. How can anyone with an IQ over 40 suggest that a border wall between 2 different countries be the same as the Berlin wall. This is why I grew up and dropped being a Democrat. :D

Athena
07-16-2006, 12:43 PM
Hum sounds like the wall the some US citizens want between Mexico and the US, and even going into Canada, people have to have ID.??The strip search has become a possibility when flying in the US.??Just wait awhile, the way the US is going it will make your story of the communist seem ameturish.??With a government able to track its people through bank accounts and medical services, and the government being the largest employer, in another 50 years, the democracy we were may be forgotten.??


This is beyond silly.??How can anyone with an IQ over 40 suggest that a border wall between 2 different countries be the same as the Berlin wall.??This is why I grew up and dropped being a Democrat.??:D


Democracy knows no country. Christianity knows no country. I suggest your thinking is restricted to something I do not understand, to think separation of human beings is a good thing.

Athena
07-16-2006, 12:56 PM
That's funny, Ben Franklin described democracy as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.??The strongest prohibitions in the Constitution are on the Congress, which is the only partially democratic body in the government.??To further restrict what this "democracy" can do, the ratification of the Constitution was dependent on the Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments, which provide a very comprehensive list of what cannot be done in this "democracy".

The majority plus one cannot vote to stifle religious or political expression or the press.

The marjority plus one cannot vote to take away a man's guns.

The majority plus one cannot hold a man without an indictment.

Etc.

No, "democracy" forms a means of plumbing the will of the people, but unlike a real democracy, that will cannot be expressed in all cases.

That's why this country is a republic, not a democracy, even though it's a republic with democratic leanings, which is it's big failing, since the democracy part is oozing around the containment of the Constitution and wreaking havoc with freedom.

Oh...and individual freedom is the basis for everything good in this country.



You need to look a little deeper.??The republic of the US is the combination of which Cicero spoke.?? You know Cicero, the man most famous for defending the republic of Rome.??"I consider the best constitution for a state to be that which is a balanced combination of the three forms mentioned, kingship, aristocracy, and democracy..."??It is the democracy part that made our government unique.??That is the part that made us great, because democracy is rule by reason, and I welcome your arguments as an opportunity to increase awareness of what democracy is all about.??People really need to study at least Cicero and his understanding of a God of reason, which came from Athens, to understand democracy and what made the United States great.??

Nathan Brazil
07-17-2006, 03:23 AM
Did you miss the part where I said the goal was freedom, not democracy?

There's no point in me repeating the post, why don't you just read it as many times as it takes until you find that statement?

firefox
09-13-2006, 11:27 PM
I would argue that communism and socialism are bad ideas even in *theory*, because they depend on the initiation of force to be even theoretically "successful", if you want to call it that. Also, it forces conformity, as does democracy, which would ultimately lead to communism, if taken to it's full logical conclusion. Check this out:

1. You can't know everything about everything, only a few things about a few specific areas of the economy, society, etc.
2. No one else does either.

Therefore, the only solution is a free market and free society where new and different ideas can be tried. Those that aren't good enough eventually fall by the wayside, while the good ones rise to the top and become acceptible norms. In the long term, society benefits and very few, if any people get imprisoned or shot in the back.

To the communist(s) here, are you in *favor* of doing what it takes to institute this program of yours (aka robbing and murdering), or do you belive that it can be done without these henious methods? I'm not attacking you, I'm just curious. Thanks.