Was Jesus A jEW? A Biblical Analysis

[Uncle]

In another thread 4 people asserted that Jesus the Christ was a jew. I ask that they show evidence, strictly using scriptures to prove that Jesus was a jew. They all made attempts, but none succeeded. See that thread here: http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=7499&page=3 Unfortunately I have other obligations and was not able to reply on Friday past as I had planned to and since that thread has went in so many different directions, and this question is of so much importance, I have decided to start a new thread based on the ethnicity of Jesus the Christ.

In the Bible wherever changes are made of importance it is always mentioned. For instance when God changed the name of Jacob to Israel, (see Genesis 32:28) then Jacobs people, (descendants) became Israelites, (not to be confused with Israeli's). But nowhere in the Bible is it written that God changed Israelites into jews. No where. Therefore it never happened. And so, during the entire time that Jesus was on this earth not one person was known as a jew. Not Jesus the Christ, nor anyone else. The translations you read from the original Greek in the New Testament have been bastardized and the Greek word that was translated into the word jew was never used as a description of an ethnic people. Instead the word was written in description of peoples from a certain area - Judea. That word was Judeans, and not jews. There were many people of different tribes, (and others) in Judea and they were all known as Judeans. Just as with Texas. There are many people of different ethnicities but they are all known as Texans.

Jesus the Christ was born and raised in Galilee, not Judea. His father was God the Almighty. Being the Son of God would make Him at least 1/2 not jewish, even if the Virgin Mary were full-blooded jew. But Mary was not a jew and I am going to show that to you here through the Blessed Virgins genealogy. "What," those of you who think you know the Bible ask, "You can't show the lineage of women in the Bible - it isn't written." But it is. You just have to look for it. So start searching and you will see that what I am about to tell you is fact.

The parents of Mary were of the tribes of Judah and Levi. By the way, their names are Joachim and Anna. Now, Joachim and Anna were married 50 years and Anna was barren, (meaning she couldn't produce children). For many reasons this distressed the parents of Mary and so they prayed to God to work a miracle in Anna and give them a child. God sent them His Angel who told them that they would have "a daughter most blessed, by whom all the nations of the earth will be blessed, and through whom will come the salvation of the world." Now, there are many who say that Anna conceived not from Joachim but from God. A miraculous conception. Let's suppose though that Anna was impregnated by Joachim. This would have made the Virgin Mary 1/2 from the tribe of Judah and 1/2 from the tribe of Levy. Which in turn would have made Jesus 1/4 of the tribe of Levy and 1/4 of the tribe of Judah and 1/2 God Divine. Therefore, (providing Mary was not also an Immaculate Conception), at the very most Jesus would have had 1/4 of His blood from the tribe of Judah and 1/4 from the tribe of Levi.

It is not known, because it is not written in the Bible if Mary was conceived by Immaculate Conception or not. If she were then that would change things even more considerably. But let's assume that Her birth was of the natural order and not supernatural. In that case Mary did come from the tribes of Judah and Levi. And if the jews are right in that they came from the tribes of Judah or Levi or Benjamin, (or a mixture between the 3 tribes mentioned), then Mary would be a jew.

Now, let's find out if the jews are right and that they came from the aforementioned tribes. In order to do that we need to delve even deeper into the Bible. Where were jews first mentioned, in the scriptures? That would be in the 12TH book of the Bible, which is the ND Book of Kings (2 Kings 16:1-6). And the word jew is there used as an abbreviation for the term 'men of Judah'. The 'men of Judah' were, from the tribe of Judah.

Sorry, as I stated earlier, I have obligations and they call upon me at inopportune times. So I will leave you with the above for now.

[I Like Beer]

I don't even know if this deserves a response.

Jesus was a Jew. His family was Jewish. All the first disciples were Jewish. Paul was the first gentile to join up.

Someone with better knowledge of the new testament gospels will have to help me out, but don't two of them draw a direct line from Mary and Joseph back to Abraham?

He was Jewish, and from what we know of him, he was a great person. What the hell does it matter if he was Jewish or not?

[Truth_and_Power]

Ah yes, now we find out how the anti-semite can be christian and live with himself. Of course just the above would not be anti-semitic, but when you consider the sum of this poster's views its easy to see where he's coming from.

[ViolaLee]

The people of that time where Hebrew. The Romans controlled everything and so the poor created Christianity. They preached humility because the Romans were proud. They preached helping the poor because the Romans were rich. They preached peace in opposition to the Romans warrior mentality. The Roman kingdom controlled all the people and so the Christians preached about another kingdom, in the afterlife.

This is how the Christians gained power. The people liked the message. It's all politics. Jesus was Jewish like everyone else. Then came Christianity.

[Saigio]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.

[ViolaLee]

He was trying to get the power away from the Romans.

[JohnM81]

This is how the Christians gained power.


No, this is how we got fed to the lions. Talk about a scam back firing eh? Or maybe it wasn't a scam....[hr]
In another thread 4 people asserted that Jesus the Christ was a jew. I ask that they show evidence, strictly using scriptures to prove that Jesus was a jew. They all made attempts, but none succeeded. See that thread here: http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=7499&page=3



So let me get this straight. You first change the definition of the word "Jew", claim that scriptures are altered after asking us to use only such reference point, and you expect to have any crediblity with such a weak argument?

Give me a break. I knew this discussion was going to go this way. So now you have your own definition of the word Jew. Ok so everyone can now start arguing past eachother because our starting points are all different. Congratulations you just made this whole topic of yours pointless.

Watch this:

Hey everyone I can prove that no humans live on planet earth! Humans aren't really the biped organisms that we think of them. That concept is a corruption of thought put forth by free masons, illuminati, and my grandmother's car mechanic. Rather, true humans actually have four arms, pink skin, white hair, and sing well at all karyoki (spelling?) bars. And lord knows none of us ever sound good singing at those places!

There proof.

PS if you disagree, that means you are one of "them" putting forth crazy assertions to hide the truth of your goals for global domination and to create fat free breakfast food!

Shame on you!

[I Like Beer]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.

[Buck Laser]

I know he was a Jew because my grandpa went to his bar mitzvah.

[PatrickHenry]

Why are you pursuing this line of agrument, Uncle?

Is it because you find yourself opposed to present day Jews and still a believer in Christ, so you must convince yourself and others that Jesus wasn't of the same ethnicity?

One way of defining present day Jews (other than their self-identification) is to say that they are adherents of the Torah. Jesus also was such an adherent. He taught from the same scriptures that the present day (religious) Jews use.

I suppose you can weasel around the issue with semantics, but IMO you will convince no one. Give it up.

[April15]

He was circumcised?

[jafar00]

Hey hey people, calm down. I already proved that Jesus is a Muslim in the other thread. :D

[crimzonsol]

To consider if someone is Jewish you look at the mother, so if Jesus was concepted by God and Mary he would be Jewish because.

Father: God
Mother: Marry

To determine if Jesus was Jewish you do:

God= Whatever God is
Marry= Jew, As You Said is Jewish


This would have made the Virgin Mary 1/2 from the tribe of Judah and 1/2 from the tribe of Levy.


This would make Jesus Jewish because his mother is Jewish.

As for your other claims about "true Jews" I can find no proof to support your accusations, but if you can supply proof I will gladly listen.

[Alonzo]

Why are you pursuing this line of agrument, Uncle?

Is it because you find yourself opposed to present day Jews and still a believer in Christ, so you must convince yourself and others that Jesus wasn't of the same ethnicity?

Yes. Honestly, imagine being a christian anti-semite in todays world. You're either a hypocrite, or you have to find a way to reconcile the "get rid of the Jews" bullshit with the "Jesus was a Jew" reality.

I'm still waiting for an honest anti-semite. The one who gets up and says "I'm a God fearing Christian, but that filthy Jew Jesus got what he deserved."

[Buck Laser]

Hey hey people, calm down. I already proved that Jesus is a Muslim in the other thread. :D

My father in law, a full blooded Dane born in south Texas, used to maintain that Jesus was a little Danish boy. The difference here is that he said it in jest, while Uncle seems to have an agenda.

For what it's worth, there's considerable evidence in the NT of the strife between Jewish Christians and non-Jewish Christians. I haven't studied that in depth in years and years, but in seminary we spent a full semester on how Christianity was hammered out in such a way that most Christians today believe they are unbound by the laws of the Torah. The exceptions are many Sabbatarians (Xns who celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday) and messianic Jews.

[Uncle]

I live in the once great state of Missouri located in the once great United States of America. It is now 1:40 A.M. and I am extremely tired and so will not do the follow up that I wanted tonight. But I will take this time to point out that those who have attacked me have not attacked my argument. While I give Biblical proof, I get in return personal insults. I am proving that Jesus the Christ was not a jew and you are all attacking me, and not what I have said. I think this thread lacks in two things: 1) Intellect and 2) An ability to debate an idea/ideology/belief. Those who profess to be learned in Biblical knowledge know that they came to their convictions through investigation, (or did they?), but yet they refuse to post them. Let us be civil here and not post beliefs but Biblical knowledge. Thank you.

[moses2792796]

Uhh God was a jew duuuh, don't you know anything. :)

[Saigio]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous

[Truth_and_Power]

I live in the once great state of Missouri located in the once white United States of America. It is now 1:40 A.M. and I am extremely tired from beating up jews and so will not do the follow up that I wanted tonight. But I will take this time to point out that those who have attacked me have not attacked my argument that jesus was a european. While I give Biblical proof, I get in return personal insults. I am proving that Jesus the Christ was not a jew and you are all attacking me, what are you.. jews? I think the original post in this thread lacks in two things: 1) Intellect and 2) An ability to use rational facts in an argument. Those who profess to be learned in Biblical knowledge and yet hate the jews that the bible is about, know that they must find a way to reconcile their beliefs. Thank you.


Well I'm glad you finally came clean.

[Truth_and_Power]

Here's the refutation you asked for:

Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin. (http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm)

[I Like Beer]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous


Ah, I see. Thanks.

I was thinking of heretical in the sense of not observing Jewish traditions.

[Buck Laser]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous

Saigio, you need to read the later prophets in the OT. Their messages gibe just about perfectly with Jesus's own message. Of course, Paul was pretty much the creator of Christianity, and he had an overweening effect on the way Christian doctrine developed. But there really is little or nothing in the Gospels, at least ethically, that's not foreshadowed in the late prophets. I don't have time to do the research right now, but I'll get back to it if you're interested.
Buck

[Truth_and_Power]

IMO the problem the jewish establishment had with jesus is that he was a connection to god outside their heirarchy. That is why I find it amusing that the students of jesus quickly formed their own new heirarchy to control his legacy.

[Saigio]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous

Saigio, you need to read the later prophets in the OT. Their messages gibe just about perfectly with Jesus's own message. Of course, Paul was pretty much the creator of Christianity, and he had an overweening effect on the way Christian doctrine developed. But there really is little or nothing in the Gospels, at least ethically, that's not foreshadowed in the late prophets. I don't have time to do the research right now, but I'll get back to it if you're interested.
Buck


I'd be very interested. Thank you.

[Alonzo]

I live in the once great state of Missouri located in the once great United States of America.

My grandfather grew up there. He had black friends since the mid 1940's when he married my grandmother and moved to Boston. I wonder who is more typical of the attitude held at that time in Missouri, you or him?

not attacked my argument that jesus was a european.

So Mary was raped by that Roman soldier!

Honestly I haven't seen anyone, including you, make such a ridiculous statment. Other than the hypothesis I just mentioned. You want to back that up?

[Truth_and_Power]

That was my spoof of his post.. the european thing. I was a rather funny spoof IMO. Of course I crack myself up!

[crimzonsol]

First Establishing Who is a Jew:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism.

So To be Jewish your Mother Has to Be Jewish(From The Tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin)

Which Tribes are Jewish?:
Brief History Lesson - 12 Tribes of Israel & The Split

After King Solomon died the 12 tribes of Israel split into The North Kingdom of Israel & The South Kingdom of Judah.
The Tribes Living in The North Kingdom of Israel
-Asher
-Dan
-Gad
-Issachar
-Joesph
-Naptali
-Reuben
-Simeon
-Zebulun
-Ephraim and Manasseh

The Tribes Living in the South Kingdom of Judah
-Judah
-Levi
-Benjamin

So from this we can counclude several things.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah:
First, Judah is Jewish.
Second, Levi had already established a covenant with God and was Jewish(Exodous 32: 26-29 Provided Bellow)
Third, Benjamin sided with Judah and lived in Judah.

Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they may have converted to Judaism.


The North Kingdom of Israel:

Ten Tribes Decided to create The North Kingdom of Israel.
They were conquered by The Assyrians and Deported. I wonder if there is any conection to the Lost Ten Tribes?



Conclusion

Based on the evidience above We can conclude that

Mary is Jewish
-Mary's Parents were Jewish(Levi&Judah)
-Mary's Mother was Jewish
-Mary even if concieved by God and Anna would be Jewish.

I'll do the Math for you.

Joachim(Jewish) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)
God(Other) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)

Jesus
-Mother was Jewish
-Concieved By God and Mary

The Math

God(Other) + Mary(Jewish) = Jesus(Jewish)

______________________________________________
Biblical Proof

Levi
Proof Of Being Priests
Exodous 32
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him: 'Up, make us a god who shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.'
2 And Aaron said unto them: 'Break off the golden rings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.'
3 And all the people broke off the golden rings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received it at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf; and they said: 'This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'
5 And when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said: 'To-morrow shall be a feast to HaShem.'
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt-offerings, and brought peace-offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to make merry.
7 And HaShem spoke unto Moses: 'Go, get thee down; for thy people, that thou broughtest up out of the land of Egypt, have dealt corruptly;
8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said: This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'
9 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people.
10 Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation.'
11 And Moses besought HaShem his G-d, and said: 'HaShem, why doth Thy wrath wax hot against Thy people, that Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, saying: For evil did He bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against Thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou didst swear by Thine own self, and saidst unto them: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.'
14 And HaShem repented of the evil which He said He would do unto His people.
15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand; tables that were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
16 And the tables were the work of G-d, and the writing was the writing of G-d, graven upon the tables.
17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses: 'There is a noise of war in the camp.'
18 And he said: 'It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome, but the noise of them that sing do I hear.'
19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing; and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and broke them beneath the mount.
20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21 And Moses said unto Aaron: 'What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought a great sin upon them?'
22 And Aaron said: 'Let not the anger of my lord wax hot; thou knowest the people, that they are set on evil.
23 So they said unto me: Make us a god, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.
24 And I said unto them: Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off; so they gave it me; and I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.'
25 And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose--for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies--
26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: 'Whoso is on HaShem'S side, let him come unto me.' And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them: 'Thus saith HaShem, the G-d of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.'
28 And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 And Moses said: 'Consecrate yourselves to-day to HaShem, for every man hath been against his son and against his brother; that He may also bestow upon you a blessing this day.'
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people: 'Ye have sinned a great sin; and now I will go up unto HaShem, peradventure I shall make atonement for your sin.'
31 And Moses returned unto HaShem, and said: 'Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them a god of gold.
32 Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray Thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.'
33 And HaShem said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book.
34 And now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee; behold, Mine angel shall go before thee; nevertheless in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.'
35 And HaShem smote the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
_____________________________
The rest I believe that you have provided.

[Alonzo]

That was my spoof of his post.. the european thing. I was a rather funny spoof IMO. Of course I crack myself up!


Oops, my bad then.

I wonder what white supremacists think of mary rape hypothesis though?

[PatrickHenry]

Here's a funny thought for Uncle.

Were the ones who clamored for Jesus' death before Pilate... Jews?

[mammalicious]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous


Ah, I see. Thanks.

I was thinking of heretical in the sense of not observing Jewish traditions.


Yes, the Jews believe that the Messiah is to come, weilding the sword of God and destroying Israels' enemies. Jesus didn't fit that in the least.

[JohnM81]

Jesus was a heretical Jew.


Do you have any evidence that he was a heretical Jew? Everything I've read about the historical Jesus, is that he was an observant Jew.


The ideas he taught did not jive with the Jewish religion. It is was belived that God was a vengemful entity. Jesus taught of an all loving god. That would be viewed as heretical and blasphemous


Ah, I see. Thanks.

I was thinking of heretical in the sense of not observing Jewish traditions.


Yes, the Jews believe that the Messiah is to come, weilding the sword of God and destroying Israels' enemies. Jesus didn't fit that in the least.


He didn't fit what the jews thought he was going to be, only what the OT said he would be.

[BoogyMan]

Jesus was exactly what he was supposed to be, born a Jew who would live a sinless life and would sacrifice himself for the sins of man. Christ came into the world through God's chosen people at the time and would take the good news to both Jew and Gentile.

[Truth_and_Power]

Here's a funny thought for Uncle.

Were the ones who clamored for Jesus' death before Pilate... Jews?


You can virtually guarantee he'll say yes because that would mean jews killed jesus and he is quite sure jesus is good and jews are bad.

[PatrickHenry]

Here's a funny thought for Uncle.

Were the ones who clamored for Jesus' death before Pilate... Jews?


You can virtually guarantee he'll say yes because that would mean jews killed jesus and he is quite sure jesus is good and jews are bad.
That's what I was thinking. But then does that make Jesus a foreigner in that land? :dizzy:

[WarriorTheKnown]

Jesus the Christ was born and raised in Galilee, not Judea. His father was God the Almighty. Being the Son of God would make Him at least 1/2 not jewish, even if the Virgin Mary were full-blooded jew.
There is no such thing as a half Jew. You're either Jewish or you're not. You're correct in saying the TaNaKh makes no specific reference on this, but it does give several examples.

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of a Israelite woman and a egyption man "among the community of Israel".

In Ezra 10:2 the Jewish men vow to put aside the non-Jewish wives and the children of those wives. If they were considered Jews, they couldn't be allowed to be put aside. Furthermore:

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.
But Mary was not a jew and I am going to show that to you here through the Blessed Virgins genealogy.... would have made the Virgin Mary 1/2 from the tribe of Judah and 1/2 from the tribe of Levy. Which in turn would have made Jesus 1/4 of the tribe of Levy and 1/4 of the tribe of Judah and 1/2 God Divine. Therefore, (providing Mary was not also an Immaculate Conception), at the very most Jesus would have had 1/4 of His blood from the tribe of Judah and 1/4 from the tribe of Levi.
Tribal linege is taken directly from the father. The mother's bloodline is insignificant. Straight from the Torah.... Numbers 1:2
שְׂ×�וּ, ×�ֶת-רֹ×�ש×� כָּל-עֲדַת בְּ×*Öµ×™-יִשְׂרָ×�ֵל, לְמִש×�ְפְּחֹתָ×�, לְבֵית ×�ֲבֹתָ×�--בְּמִסְפַּר ש×�ֵמוֹת, כָּל-זָכָר לְגֻלְגְּלֹתָ×�

Notice, by their fathers' houses, or the tribes. It says nothing about checking to see which house the mother is from.

We know for a fact that jesus is Jewish according to the Jewish scripture. It really shouldn't matter what the NT says, we're not using christian scripture to determine if someone is a Jew, we're using Jewish scripture.

[crimzonsol]

Tribal linege is taken directly from the father. The mother's bloodline is insignificant. Straight from the Torah.... Numbers 1:2
שְׂ×�וּ, ×�ֶת-רֹ×�ש×� כָּל-עֲדַת בְּ×*Öµ×™-יִשְׂרָ×�ֵל, לְמִש×�ְפְּחֹתָ×�, לְבֵית ×�ֲבֹתָ×�--בְּמִסְפַּר ש×�ֵמוֹת, כָּל-זָכָר לְגֻלְגְּלֹתָ×�

Notice, by their fathers' houses, or the tribes. It says nothing about checking to see which house the mother is from.



The Tribal linege does not matter in this matter since it is through the Mother that one determines wether a person is Jewish. Other than that great post.

[mammalicious]

This would have made the Virgin Mary 1/2 from the tribe of Judah and 1/2 from the tribe of Levy. Which in turn would have made Jesus 1/4 of the tribe of Levy and 1/4 of the tribe of Judah and 1/2 God Divine. Therefore, (providing Mary was not also an Immaculate Conception), at the very most Jesus would have had 1/4 of His blood from the tribe of Judah and 1/4 from the tribe of Levi.

Mary WAS the "Immaculate Conception.'' She was conceived without the stain of original sin...making her an acceptable vessel to carry and bear the Messiah.
You are confusing that with the concept of the 'virgin birth' of Jesus.
So God has DNA? Is that how you're figuring Jesus' genetical makeup?

I may be mistaken...but aren't all 12 tribes of Israel, Jewish?

[Deadshot]

Jesus was exactly what he was supposed to be, born a Jew who would live a sinless life and would sacrifice himself for the sins of man. Christ came into the world through God's chosen people at the time and would take the good news to both Jew and Gentile.


Bingo!:thumbsup:

i.e. Jesus was a Jew!

[Newscaster]

Wow, this thread is amazing. Such total nonsense.
Was Jesus Jewish? What else could he have been since Christianity did not exist during his lifetime nor did Islam. He also, according to legend, did not subscribe to what we call pagan religions. So basically, the original question is designed to malign Jesus and Jews.
Jesus was also in the original posting, termed a heretical Jew. No, actually he was more a Jew than many of the Jews of his day. He believed all that the Torah taught and apparently was troubled that his fellow Jews were not as pious as him. His aim was to bring people back to their faith, Judaism. Everything else you have read about him comes not from the mouth or hand of Jesus but from his followers.
So you can speculate all you want....but Jesus was indeed Jewish. And the bigots can crawl back into their holes.

[jafar00]

How about this? All Prophets were messengers of God and with that task, were placed above the labels of Jew, Christian, Muslim or other.
Jesus(upon him peace) was simply a man carrying the message of God as the other prophets before him.

[Newscaster]

Jafar, thats a nice idea but it doesnt hold water. I have heard ministers literally refer to almost anyone mentioned in the bible as being a prophet or messenger.
Give me a break. Weren't there any just plain folks? And suppose I walk up to you and claim to be carrying a message from God, would you believe me and pray to me or would you make sure I became ensconced in a rubber room somewhere. There were not that many prophets or mesengers in those day.

[PatrickHenry]

Mary WAS the "Immaculate Conception.'' She was conceived without the stain of original sin...
This concept is Roman Catholic. There is no support for it in any scripture, whatsoever. Most non-catholic Christians think that Mary was just a very sweet, godly young woman...not the Mother of God...

And certainly nobody to pray to, being dead and all. Praying to Jesus is effective, however. He's alive...

[dgun]

In another thread 4 people asserted that Jesus the Christ was a jew. I ask that they show evidence, strictly using scriptures to prove that Jesus was a jew. They all made attempts, but none succeeded.

You're joking right? Matthew Chapter 1 describes his genealogy. (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_%28King_James%29/Matthew#1)

He was born to the House of David by both is mother and earthly father.

old treatment prophecies of Christ say that he is from the House of David.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NIV) For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

Isaiah 11:1-5 (NIV) A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- 3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

Jeremiah 23:5 (NIV) "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

[Newscaster]

As far as Jesus is concerned...........
He was not born in the House of David because Joseph was of that house. Mary was not a descendant of David and thus Jesus could claim no such ancestry. And Christians of every sect agree that Joseph was NOT the father.

As far as whether Jesus was Jewish....I repeat......there were no other religions except pagan religions....so what else could Jesus have been? A sun worshipper?

Come on guys....doctrine just doesnt wok no matter how you twist it.

[dgun]

Mary was not a descendant of David and thus Jesus could claim no such ancestry.

Not true Newscaster. Mary's genealogy is given in Luke 3 23:28

The confusion comes from the language of the text. The text reads that Jesus was the son of Joseph who was then the "son of Heli".

Heli was Joseph's father in law, thus Mary's father. We know from Matthew 1 that Jacob is Jospeh's father.

Luke goes on to trace Mary's genealogy back to David.

Furthermore, confusion on this issue arises from the fundamental misunderstanding of Christ's true nature. Joseph was every bit as much Christ's father as Mary was his mother. Mary was essentially a surrogate.

A lot of this ‘Jesus was not a Jew’ nonsense is rooted in bigotry toward Jews. I’m not saying that is your angle, but I know it is for many.

[WarriorTheKnown]

Mary's genealogy is given in Luke 3 23:28
Why does her lineage even matter? I think it's pretty clear we know she is Jewish. If you're referencing her lineage for the prophetic requirement that the Messiach come from the house of David, then I would argue that the house is determined by the father, not the mother. Look up Numbers chapter 1, off the top of my head I think verse 17 or 18, but my gut feeling is verse 18.

[Newscaster]

Heli may have been Joseph's father-in-law but where is your proof that he was also the father of Mary. He could have been the father of some other women. and the genealogical tracing of Mary and Joseph goes into the OT and the OT patriarchs were very careful in laying out family trees and Mary is NOT in the line from David. Joseph is and basically what you are saying is that all the ancient experts were wrong and they were the ones who could have asked Mary specifically. Now, isnt it a fascinating situation to have Mary and Joseph, whom nobody knew before, suddenly show up and not only turn out to be descendants of King David but also the parents of God. Amazing.

[dgun]

Why does her lineage even matter?

The point of the OP is that Jesus is not Jewish. Regardless of whether or not Mary's lineage matters in terms of being born to the house of David, it does in fact matter to show to the OP and others that Jesus was Jewish, since the crux of their argument is to reject Joseph's lineage.

[Newscaster]

dgun, when you sy Joseph was just as much Jesus' father as Mary was his mother, you have just negated the idea of immaculate conception. But for Joseph to be as much the father as Mary was the mother, there MUST be a biological connection and since the NT doesnt hardly pay any attention to Joseph after they arrive at the manger.....he can hardly be a major player in this drama. If he were really the father, he would be revered as much as Mary is but he is not. No sperm...no paternity. Remember, God created Jesus thru pregnancy and human gestation. Adam was created poof, out of the blue. If God went the human route, then there must have been a sperm in their somewhere.

[dgun]

Heli may have been Joseph's father-in-law but where is your proof that he was also the father of Mary.

Uh, What? if Mary was married to Joseph, and Heli was Joseph's father in law, then does that not make Heli Mary's father?

Are you suggesting that Joseph had more than one wife and then at the same time asking me to prove something? First, you must prove the extraordinary claim that Joseph had more than one wife.

is and basically what you are saying is that all the ancient experts were wrong

Am I? So who's lineage is laid out in Luke, Newcaster? Some random individual?

Are you suggesting that Mary was not Jewish?

If you reject Luke, then there is nothing else to really debate.

[WarriorTheKnown]

Am I safe in saying that we all agree jesus was a Jew? Can we move on to something interesting?

[dgun]

dgun, when you sy Joseph was just as much Jesus' father as Mary was his mother, you have just negated the idea of immaculate conception.

No. What makes you or anyone else think that Mary has anymore claim to Jesus than Joseph does? Jesus does not have a "biological" mother. Jesus created Mary and Joseph both and set in motion all the events that led up to his birth as a man.

he would be revered as much as Mary is but he is not.

Mary is revered because people are idolaters.

God created Jesus thru pregnancy and human gestation.

Jesus existed long before he was born to Mary.

And actually, I believe Jesus spoke of this. But I’m too lazy to look it up. Something about David calling him lord.

[WarriorTheKnown]

And actually, I believe Jesus spoke of this. But I’m too lazy to look it up. Something about David calling him lord.


Please tell me you're not references Psalm 110?

[Newscaster]

Dgun, there is nothing to say Mary was married to Joseph. They just show up out of the blue heading for the manger. And shortly after Jesus is born, Joseph disappears. In Jewish tradition, the father does NOT disappear. There is ample evidence that the real father (sperm donor) was a Roman soldier. Lets face it, Mary was a teenager and could have been swayed by a man in uniform. Its not just me saying that, Many biblical scholars have speculated on the same thing. And no, I am not suggesting that Joseph had more than one wife. What if Joseph'd presence could be explained by saying he and Mary met along the road and teamed up for safety's sake and also becuse she was pregnant and needed help and he was just a good guy. Now, if Joseph had more than one wife, thats would have been a big deal back then because polygamy was NOT allowed and it would have been mentioned. Besides, nobody other than you brought up their possibility in this thread. Since we know so little about Joseph, he could have been a husband, a cousin, a brother, a next door neighbor.
Now, a couple of other of your issues.
Luke's lineage of Jesus. Very little credibility there because biblical scholars have laid out the family tree of Jesus and despite what he said, Mary does NOT lead to King David. Joseph does. Isnt that convenient? Now, how much of a geneaologist was he?
Saint Luke, born in Antioch, studied Greek philosophy, medicine, and art in his youth. St. Luke came to Jerusalem where he came to believe in the Lord. He and Cleopas met the resurrected Lord on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24).

After Pentecost, Luke returned to Antioch and worked with the Apostle Paul, traveling with him to Rome, and converting Jews and pagans to the Christian Faith. "Luke, the beloved physician, ... greets you," writes the Apostle Paul to the Colossians (Colossians 4:14). At the request of Christians, St. Luke wrote his Gospel in the first century. According to some accounts this took place around 60 A.D., and according to others around 80 A.D. After St. Paul's martyrdom, St. Luke preached the Gospel throughout Italy, Dalmatia, Macedonia, and other regions. He painted icons of the Most-holy Theotokos—not just one, but three—as well as icons of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul. For this reason, St. Luke is considered the founder of Christian iconography. In his old age, he visited Libya and Upper Egypt; from Egypt he returned to Greece, where he continued to preach and convert many with great zeal despite his age. Luke may have been a doctor and also an artist but geneology is a specific skill area and there is no evidence that in writing a lineage, he knew what he was doing. In addition, his biography does not give evidence that Luke ever knew Jesus on a personal face to face basis. Notice, he doesnt join up until the word of Jesus is already circulating and then later leaves and goes back home wih no mention of the two ever "hanging out together." So, I dont give much credence to the lineage he drafted.
Now, you ask if I am saying Mary was not Jewish. Not at all. I am sure she was and her Jewishness is important because if she were not Jewish, Jewish would also be Gentile and the NT stresses that he was not and believe me, Jesus would not have gotten the attention of the Rabbis had he not been Jewish.
Am I rejecting Luke? No. He was an accepted apostle and thats cool. I just get antsy when people attribute more to various biblical figures than are reasonable.
Luke was NOT a geneologist.
I find that in talks wih Christians, if they need a factoid to fill out a story, they create one. You need a father-in-law....make him up. I am willing to bet that the actual original story of Jesus is a lot less than that what we hear today.

[jafar00]

Jafar, thats a nice idea but it doesnt hold water. I have heard ministers literally refer to almost anyone mentioned in the bible as being a prophet or messenger.


I've heard ministers and priests say weird things too ;)


Give me a break. Weren't there any just plain folks? And suppose I walk up to you and claim to be carrying a message from God, would you believe me


No, since Muhammed(saw) is the seal of Prophets. The last one until the end of time.


and pray to me


Definitely not as that is shirk, or ascribing partners to God. Thats one of the things Muslims don't like about Christians. How they worship the messenger instead of the one who sent the message.


or would you make sure I became ensconced in a rubber room somewhere. There were not that many prophets or mesengers in those day.


:madlaugh:

[Newscaster]

Jafar, what do you think would happen if people paid more attention to the message itself rather than the messenger?

[Truth_and_Power]

Thats one of the things Muslims don't like about Christians. How they worship the messenger instead of the one who sent the message.


That is one of the things agnostic folk don't like about religious folk. How they worship god rather than the truth.

[Newscaster]

I think worshipping a God is a legitimate form of worship. But not everybody is or was a God and thats when things get a bit sticky.[hr]er........Dgun, could you point out to me the section of the old Testament where David refers to Jesus as Lord. See, David lived quite a few years beore Jesus showed up and I would bet whats in my pocket at this moment that he never heard of Jesus. Nor is Jesus mentioned in the OT nor was Jesus around before he was born and this is what drives me crazy......these scenarios that are put forth as fact when some minor thinking could show their impossibility.

[Uncle]

Was Jesus a jew? Many here have reiterated, repeated and regurgitated that He was. But not one has given Biblical evidence that He was a jew. I still assert that He, Jesus the Christ, was not a jew and I have decided to take my day tomorrow to give to you, free of charge, an education on how Jesus the Christ could not possibly have been a jew. Stay tuned boys and girls, for a Biblical awakening.

[Deadshot]

Why was Jesus born in a barn? Because his mother and his step father followed the Roman order for all Jews to be counted in the annual census. Hence there was no place to stay, and they got stuck with a manger.

So if your mother and step-father are jewish, you are at least part Jewish.

Dat's in the Bible, baby.

[Newscaster]

Deadshot, I would only contest one item you posted. I dont believe the NT describes Joseph as a step father or even mnarried to Mary. I believe most consider him a traveling companion. There is great speculation that the father was a Roman soldier who, back then, were in the habit of sexually attacking young Jewish girls.
There is one other small item. A check of old Roman records does not turn up a call for a census at that time. But I guess its a reason as good as any to explain the trip.

[Deadshot]

Deadshot, I would only contest one item you posted. I dont believe the NT describes Joseph as a step father or even mnarried to Mary. I believe most consider him a traveling companion. There is great speculation that the father was a Roman soldier who, back then, were in the habit of sexually attacking young Jewish girls.
There is one other small item. A check of old Roman records does not turn up a call for a census at that time. But I guess its a reason as good as any to explain the trip.


I'm going from the Bible. Mary's birth was through the immaculate conception, as explained in the Bible.

As to the trip I got this from Wiki, who sources the Gospel according to Luke, "According to Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea to Mary, a virgin, by a miracle of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel of Luke gives an account of the angel Gabriel visiting Mary to tell her that she was chosen to bear the Son of God (Luke 1:26–38). According to Luke, an order of Caesar Augustus had forced Mary and Joseph to leave their homes in Nazareth and come to the home of Joseph's ancestors, the house of David, for the Census of Quirinius."

If not Jewish, Joseph and Mary would not have been forced to respond to the call of the Census of Quirinius.

Hence, Jesus was a jew. Born to a jewish mother and jewish step-father who were counted by the Romans so that they could figure out the taxation of the jews.

[AnnEsthesia]

OMFG. So Jesus, born to jewish people, was... what? White european? Mother of god, how bizarre.

[WarriorTheKnown]

Was Jesus a jew? Many here have reiterated, repeated and regurgitated that He was. But not one has given Biblical evidence that He was a jew. I still assert that He, Jesus the Christ, was not a jew and I have decided to take my day tomorrow to give to you, free of charge, an education on how Jesus the Christ could not possibly have been a jew. Stay tuned boys and girls, for a Biblical awakening.


Obviously you missed this post of mine...


Jesus the Christ was born and raised in Galilee, not Judea. His father was God the Almighty. Being the Son of God would make Him at least 1/2 not jewish, even if the Virgin Mary were full-blooded jew.
There is no such thing as a half Jew. You're either Jewish or you're not. You're correct in saying the TaNaKh makes no specific reference on this, but it does give several examples.

Leviticus 24:10 speaks of a Israelite woman and a egyption man "among the community of Israel".

In Ezra 10:2 the Jewish men vow to put aside the non-Jewish wives and the children of those wives. If they were considered Jews, they couldn't be allowed to be put aside. Furthermore:

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox.
But Mary was not a jew and I am going to show that to you here through the Blessed Virgins genealogy.... would have made the Virgin Mary 1/2 from the tribe of Judah and 1/2 from the tribe of Levy. Which in turn would have made Jesus 1/4 of the tribe of Levy and 1/4 of the tribe of Judah and 1/2 God Divine. Therefore, (providing Mary was not also an Immaculate Conception), at the very most Jesus would have had 1/4 of His blood from the tribe of Judah and 1/4 from the tribe of Levi.
Tribal linege is taken directly from the father. The mother's bloodline is insignificant. Straight from the Torah.... Numbers 1:2
שְׂ×�וּ, ×�ֶת-רֹ×�ש×� כָּל-עֲדַת בְּ×*Öµ×™-יִשְׂרָ×�ֵל, לְמִש×�ְפְּחֹתָ×�, לְבֵית ×�ֲבֹתָ×�--בְּמִסְפַּר ש×�ֵמוֹת, כָּל-זָכָר לְגֻלְגְּלֹתָ×�

Notice, by their fathers' houses, or the tribes. It says nothing about checking to see which house the mother is from.

We know for a fact that jesus is Jewish according to the Jewish scripture. It really shouldn't matter what the NT says, we're not using christian scripture to determine if someone is a Jew, we're using Jewish scripture.


I just re-read the thread, the only BIBLICAL verse you've posted is one in Genesis about a name change which has nothing to do with mr. j being a jew. Let me know when you choose to address these verses.[hr]Born to a jewish mother and jewish step-father who were counted by the Romans so that they could figure out the taxation of the jews.[/color]

What does his step-father have to do w/ anything? [hr]So if your mother and step-father are jewish, you are at least part Jewish.

What a stupid thing to say. As has been stated countlessly in this thread, the father is insignificant, the father could be a roman, joseph, or even G-d (which I don't believe), and he would still be 100% Jewish because Mary is.

[Newscaster]

Warrior, about your contention that Jesus was not a Jew.....if not, what was he. There was only one religion in existence at that time that worshipped ONE God...Judaism. The others were pagen, multi God religions. So Jesus had to be Jewish or Pagan or nothing. Care to speculate?

[Tsky]

Matthew 24:1-16
The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:

2 Abraham became father to Isaac;
Isaac became father to Jacob;
Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers;

3 Judah became father to Pe´rez and to Ze´rah by Ta´mar;
Pe´rez became father to Hez´ron;
Hez´ron became father to Ram;

4 Ram became father to Am·min´a·dab;
Am·min´a·dab became father to Nah´shon;
Nah´shon became father to Sal´mon;

5 Sal´mon became father to Bo´az by Ra´hab;
Bo´az became father to O´bed by Ruth;
O´bed became father to Jes´se;

6 Jes´se became father to David the king.
David became father to Sol´o·mon by the wife of U·ri´ah;

7 Sol´o·mon became father to Re·ho·bo´am;
Re·ho·bo´am became father to A·bi´jah;
A·bi´jah became father to A´sa;

8 A´sa became father to Je·hosh´a·phat;
Je·hosh´a·phat became father to Je·ho´ram;
Je·ho´ram became father to Uz·zi´ah;

9 Uz·zi´ah became father to Jo´tham;
Jo´tham became father to A´haz;
A´haz became father to Hez·e·ki´ah;

10 Hez·e·ki´ah became father to Ma·nas´seh;
Ma·nas´seh became father to A´mon;
A´mon became father to Jo·si´ah;

11 Jo·si´ah became father to Jec·o·ni´ah and to his brothers at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

12 After the deportation to Babylon Jec·o·ni´ah became father to She·al´ti·el;
She·al´ti·el became father to Ze·rub´ba·bel;

13 Ze·rub´ba·bel became father to A·bi´ud;
A·bi´ud became father to E·li´a·kim;
E·li´a·kim became father to A´zor;

14 A´zor became father to Za´dok;
Za´dok became father to A´chim;
A´chim became father to E·li´ud;

15 E·li´ud became father to El·e·a´zar;
El·e·a´zar became father to Mat´than;
Mat´than became father to Jacob;

16 Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
**********************************

Just thought I'd post this to see if it any way ends this debate...

If you believe the Bible you believe what it says. If you don't then it makes no sense to question Jesus' ethnicity because Jesus doesn't exist.

Case closed.

[WarriorTheKnown]

Warrior, about your contention that Jesus was not a Jew.....if not, what was he. There was only one religion in existence at that time that worshipped ONE God...Judaism. The others were pagen, multi God religions. So Jesus had to be Jewish or Pagan or nothing. Care to speculate?


Ughhh, where did I ever say he was not Jewish?

We know for a fact that jesus is Jewish according to the Jewish scripture.

I do see myself saying that or even this:

WarriorTheKnown]As has been stated countlessly in this thread, the father is insignificant, the father could be a roman, joseph, or even G-d (which I don't believe), and he would still be 100% Jewish because Mary is.

[Newscaster]

No, case is NOT closed.

Where is your guarantee that what Matthew wrote is correct. He was not a geneologist (spelling?) so it had to be dictated to him....but who was it that gave matthew the info. And where is your guarantee that HE was correct.

And the biggest thing...........the lineage of men is not important. It is the lineage of women that counts and Mary was Jewish and NOT of the House of David. Joseph was of the House of David but the bible says he was not the father, so Jesus has NO connection to David and that comes from the Jewish scholars who have held that position for as long as people tried to determine just who Jesus was. Noe if you believe you know more than the Jewish scholars who devote their lives to such matters, thats cool but you will be kidding yourself.

[Tsky]

No, case is NOT closed.

Where is your guarantee that what Matthew wrote is correct. He was not a geneologist (spelling?) so it had to be dictated to him....but who was it that gave matthew the info. And where is your guarantee that HE was correct.

And the biggest thing...........the lineage of men is not important. It is the lineage of women that counts and Mary was Jewish and NOT of the House of David. Joseph was of the House of David but the bible says he was not the father, so Jesus has NO connection to David and that comes from the Jewish scholars who have held that position for as long as people tried to determine just who Jesus was. Noe if you believe you know more than the Jewish scholars who devote their lives to such matters, thats cool but you will be kidding yourself.


Let me try this again. If you believe the Bible you believe what it says. If you don't then it makes no sense to question Jesus' ethnicity because Jesus doesn't exist. Or are you saying you believe what the Bible says, just not Matthew's account?[hr]And might I add that ALL men are born of women so if the women isn't a Jew, the man isn't a Jew and vice versa.

The Israelites kept meticulous geneology records because the Messiah was to come in the line of David. After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE those records were lost forever so now I ask you, if Jesus isn't the Messiah, who will be and how will you know? Huh?

[Buck Laser]

Let me try this again. If you believe the Bible you believe what it says. If you don't then it makes no sense to question Jesus' ethnicity because Jesus doesn't exist. Or are you saying you believe what the Bible says, just not Matthew's account?[hr]And might I add that ALL men are born of women so if the women isn't a Jew, the man isn't a Jew and vice versa.

The Israelites kept meticulous geneology records because the Messiah was to come in the line of David. After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE those records were lost forever so now I ask you, if Jesus isn't the Messiah, who will be and how will you know? Huh?


First, Tsky, welcome to DF. I hope you enjoy it here.

Secondly, the truth of the bible isn't an either/or proposition for many of us. Its content covers an incredibly wide range of ideas and types of literature, and it's impossible IMO to assign each and every passage the same weight and importance.

The genealogy of Jesus appeared only in Matthew, which is believed by most scholars to be later than Mark. As all these gospels appeared in written form a good many years after Jesus's ministry, it's understandable that more attention would be paid to his ancestry, which was essentially unknown when he began to preach following his baptism by John.

It's ironic that in your reference to Jesus's genealogy, his line is traced through the male line, yet a Jew's "jewishness" depends on the mother.

Finally, "Uncle's" claims seem to based on a very strong antipathy to Jews, and not much else.

[WarriorTheKnown]

And the biggest thing...........the lineage of men is not important. It is the lineage of women that counts and Mary was Jewish and NOT of the House of David. Joseph was of the House of David but the bible says he was not the father, so Jesus has NO connection to David and that comes from the Jewish scholars who have held that position for as long as people tried to determine just who Jesus was. Noe if you believe you know more than the Jewish scholars who devote their lives to such matters, thats cool but you will be kidding yourself.


Newscaster:
Let's go through this step-by-step. I'd like you to either write that agree or disagree with each statement so we can better address the issues.
1) Do you agree that Jewish scripture states that it is the MOTHER that determines if the children are Jewish.
2) If you agree with statement one, then you agree that the house is irrelevant as we are not debating if jesus is the messiach.
3) We're not debating if jesus is the messiach in THIS thread.
4) Christian scripture states jesus's mother is Mary. It is irrelevant if it is copied wrong. I don't plan to debate the NT scripture.
5) According to Jewish scripture, jesus is a jew if Mary was a Jew.

[mammalicious]

Was Jesus a jew? Many here have reiterated, repeated and regurgitated that He was. But not one has given Biblical evidence that He was a jew. I still assert that He, Jesus the Christ, was not a jew and I have decided to take my day tomorrow to give to you, free of charge, an education on how Jesus the Christ could not possibly have been a jew. Stay tuned boys and girls, for a Biblical awakening.



In Luke 2:21 Jesus is taken to the temple to be circumcised. Mary and Joseph then took him to perform the ceremony of purification ''as the law of Moses comanded''. JEWISH rituals were followed by Joseph AND Mary, and by Jesus...Jesus was a Jew. He knew the scriptures well. Get over it.

[Uncle]

Am a little late getting back into this thread, but, as it's said, "the best laid plans....)

It is true that those who say they are jews claim that the bloodline of jews flows through the mother and the race of the father is irrelevant. Even if the father for hundreds of generations is a non-jew, (or as jews like to call us: Gentiles). Let's examine that real quick, shall we? If the father of a female child is black and the mother is 100% jewish the female child is still considered jewish even though 1/2 of her DNA is not jewish. Now, suppose that child marries an Asian man and they have a daughter, that daughter is still considered 100% jewish even though her DNA is only 1/4 jewish. Continue that and you reduce at the following rate: 1/8, 1/6, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, etcetera. So, in just 7 generations the jewish bloodline has been deluted to an almost nonexistent level. But yet that child is still considered 100% jewish. Remarkably stupid, isn't it? And these are the "jews who say they are jews and are not" (Revelations 3:9).

Back on topic: Judaism did not exist in the time of Joseph and Mary nor in the time of Jesus the Christ and so Jesus did not follow the teachings of judaism. Nor did jews exist during that time as a race as we know them today. Show me one time in the Bible where God changed the name of the Israelites, (not to be confused with Israelis) from Israelites to jews. You can't, and you wont even try because you know it was never written. And if it was never written then it never happened. Although todays jews claim to be of Davids seedline when you ask one to show you evidence of it, they refuse and start calling names or assaulting you instead of your message. Those who call themselves jews today have no connection with the bloodline of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, David, Jacob, or any other of the Adamic race.

[Tsky]

"Those who call themselves jews today have no connection with the bloodline of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, David, Jacob, or any other of the Adamic race." Uncle

Yeah, well you got that part right. God said by means of Abrahams seed ALL NATIONS would bless themselves. God had a chosen people because his plan for our eternal future (first uttered to Eve in the garden of Eden) required that he have special representatives here on earth. Those representatives were first the Israelites and then extended to Gentiles when Christ came and gave his life for ALL MANKIND. Anyone still trying to claim hold of the 'throne' at this late date without any proof of their blood line and no proof that the person who might come to claim the throne is of the line of David is misguided.

People can sit all day and debate about whether Jesus had the right to the throne but the fact is he came, died, he has followers, there's no credible source to proof the entire NT is a fable, the records were destroyed in 70 CE and prophesies he spoke of are being fulfilled today.

[Questerr]

That's horrible logic Uncle, God didn't change the name of the Israelites to Jews, the Romans did. To them the inhabitants of Judea (who were mostly Israelites during this time period) were Judeans. As latin became bastardized by every Roman sucessor state, Judeans became Jews.

Question to the Jews on this board, even if you call yourself Jews in common parlance, is not your religion the [/i]Hebrew [/i] religion, a word and name that most definately was used back then?

Uncle, you are arguing semantics against words that have had 2,000 years to evolve. Using the terminology of the day, the Hebrews then are still the Hebrews now, practicing the evolution of the Hebrew relgion. Jest as you practice the evolution of the Christian religion.

Jesus was a Jew. Get over it and realize that there is no reason to have bigotry and racism against the Jews.

[Tsky]

Jesus didn't preach based on his race/ethnicity. He preached to Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles, etc. He was not partial. If Uncle's posts are made to show that Jesus wasn't 'one of them' then that's stupid. He didn't care about race and if you follow the teachings of Christ you wouldn't either.

[Questerr]

Yeah, well you got that part right. God said by means of Abrahams seed ALL NATIONS would bless themselves. God had a chosen people because his plan for our eternal future (first uttered to Eve in the garden of Eden) required that he have special representatives here on earth. Those representatives were first the Israelites and then extended to Gentiles when Christ came and gave his life for ALL MANKIND. Anyone still trying to claim hold of the 'throne' at this late date without any proof of their blood line and no proof that the person who might come to claim the throne is of the line of David is misguided.


But the Jews don't agree with Christians that Jesus was the Messiah, so they can believe that the compact between God and his Chosen People still only applies to them.


People can sit all day and debate about whether Jesus had the right to the throne but the fact is he came, died, he has followers, there's no credible source to proof the entire NT is a fable, the records were destroyed in 70 CE and prophesies he spoke of are being fulfilled today.


What about the reports from the Romans that there were as many as a dozen other "prophets" preaching at the same time as Jesus? Do they deserve equal recognition, too?

Followers do not equal truth of message. Neither does persecution and execution at the hands of the Romans (they did that with many religions and rebellious leaders). There's also no credible proof to show that the relgious points of the NT are anything but a fable. (that's why there is faith, you can't prove the validity of Christianity).

And last but not least, vague prophecies mean that you can always find some way of fulfilling them.

Tsky, if you can't get the point of all of my posts over the past couple days, here it is: You can't prove Christianity.

I have no problem with Christians. Your religion is fine for you if it helps you become and better, more moral person, and live a fulfilling life. My issue is with people who try and argue that the Bible can be proven, because it can't. You have to take it on faith. I also don't like people who think that Christianity and it's beliefs should apply to everyone. I don't like it when people try and push their religion and their world view on me.

In short, standing by your faith makes you great. Trying to prove your faith will only lead to people criticizing you position.[hr]
Jesus didn't preach based on his race/ethnicity. He preached to Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles, etc. He was not partial. If Uncle's posts are made to show that Jesus wasn't 'one of them' then that's stupid. He didn't care about race and if you follow the teachings of Christ you wouldn't either.


Agreed. Bet you didn't expect that :nana:

He did preach to everyone who would listen, regardless of their creed or background.

But the fact remains that ethnically, Jesus was a Jew. He preached a new version of the Jewish religion, technically making him a heretic, but he still followed Jewish customs and was a child of the same God. His associates were Jews, his family were Jewish, and he was even circumcised as a Jew. For all intents and purposes, he was Jewish.

[Tsky]

"Tsky, if you can't get the point of all of my posts over the past couple days, here it is: You can't prove Christianity." Questerr

I believe, why in the world should I have to also prove it?!!!??

YOU DISPROVE IT.

You have not done that and you cannot do that. I don't give two rats farts about what some Romans were saying about other Christs walking around. There is only ONE Christ that that many died for believing in, there is only ONE Chrst that is written about in the Bible and there is only ONE Christ that was crucified. If those people felt so strongly that the 'other Christs' had any authority why aren't there 4 biblical books dedicated to him?

NO ONE can disprove the New Testament. You can dispute but you can't refute it.

Faith is not all that's needed to accept Christ. Just because you don't have faith and you don't have hope and you don't have confidence in God doesn't mean others don't.

That's all I have to say to you.[hr]Actually, that's not all.

You are on forum that talks about religion and politics amoung other things. If you are not interested in hearing people's religious views or if you don't want to be made to feel that your thinking is somehow out of touch, then you are on the wrong forum. Don't involve yourself in a debate and then get pissed off because others feel strongly about their cause. I know there are people of every religion on this board but if they can share their views I can share mine. You don't seem to fit into any religious category so in my eyes that expressly disqualifies you from even posting on the subject, let alone getting your panties in a bunch when others express strong arguments about their beliefs.

Go post in the bubble gum and lollipop section. It seems that would suit you better.

[Uncle]

Today jews will tell you, (and many misinformed "Christians" will agree) that judaism was the only religion of Jesus' time. This is a blatant lie. You see there were at least three in the Bible: The Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes'. (Judaism btw managed to borrow from each of those 3 in creating the jewish religion). All three agreed on one thing: That there is only one God. The apostle Paul came from the pharisees and not from the later, (nonexistent at the time) judaism. Also, in the religion of the Pharasees there were subsects, just as today there are subsects of the Baptist and many other relgions.

The Sadducees did not believe in a life here-after, but did believe in a devine God. Half-assed atheist/agnostics?

The Essenes withdrew from all the other people and lived solely among themselves believeing that the Jerusalem Temple was corrupted, (Remember Jesus agreed when He took a whip to the money changers there?).

Let me also add here the Zealots. One of the desciples, Simons was a Zealot and their religious believes were similar to that of the Pharasees.

There were many others, (including the Pagans), but let's stop there as I am using these religions as a mere illustration to show that judaism did not even exist during the time of Jesus the Christ! There was not one religion during the time of the Christ known as judaism. Nor was there one person known as jews in any sense other than comeing from Judea, ( a city).

Further, if judaism was the only religion in the region and yet the entire Old Testament comes from that region who give us the Old Testament? The jews? How could they? They only believe in the first five books of the O.T., which they call the Torah, dismissing the rest of it in its' entirety.

Next lesson: Who are the jews and where did they come from?

[Tsky]

Sooo...the question is not 'did Jesus practice Judaism?' but rather 'was Jesus a Jew?' If he was from Judea and Judea's called themselves Jews, was he a Jew?

I don't dispute that Judaism as we know it was not founded in scripture. I've been arguing that point in a roundabout way all day. But my question to you is: What the heck is your point?

[Newscaster]

Tsky, your question to Uncle, "Whats your point?" is answered this way. Uncle does not agree with Judaism, he does not care for Judaism or its adherents and his point is to denigrate it. His points have been made before. Go to the websites where people such as him, make those points but without attempting to convince anyone that they are being scholarly. Uncle espouces nonsense. Uncle needs to study the history, philosophy and prctices of Jews but with an open mind insted of reading material solely to find areas that agree with his personal prejudices. But he wont, so trying to convince him of anything is actually pointless. And Jews will simply continue to exist, make progress and share their advances wih those in the world who wish to share.

[Uncle]

Sooo...the question is not 'did Jesus practice Judaism?' but rather 'was Jesus a Jew?' If he was from Judea and Judea's called themselves Jews, was he a Jew?

I don't dispute that Judaism as we know it was not founded in scripture. I've been arguing that point in a roundabout way all day. But my question to you is: What the heck is your point?

My "point" Tsky is to show that Jesus was not of the jewish faith as so many here claim. By that I can show that Jesus was not only not jewish by race or ethnicity but also not by religion. Many people here claim that Jesus practiced jewish religious customs and relgious beliefs yet they aren't even aware that judaism as a religion never existed in the new or old Testament. They reiterate that which they are told as though it is gospel when they have never taken the time to give it honest and deliberate thought.[hr]
Tsky, your question to Uncle, "Whats your point?" is answered this way. Uncle does not agree with Judaism, he does not care for Judaism or its adherents and his point is to denigrate it. His points have been made before. Go to the websites where people such as him, make those points but without attempting to convince anyone that they are being scholarly. Uncle espouces nonsense. Uncle needs to study the history, philosophy and prctices of Jews but with an open mind insted of reading material solely to find areas that agree with his personal prejudices. But he wont, so trying to convince him of anything is actually pointless. And Jews will simply continue to exist, make progress and share their advances wih those in the world who wish to share.

There are those who can give evidence and those who will give insults. Which do you choose to be, News?

[crimzonsol]

Uncle, that wasn't an insult. I agree with him, you have yet to respond to any of our posts, we have quoted the bible and more importantly we quoted you. Most of my arguement about wether Jesus was a Jew was quoted from you. I only used one other piece of information to prove you wrong, yet you say I have not used acceptable sources.

You are not listening to any of our posts. I have proven that Judah, Benjamin and Levi were all Jewish. Yet you have decide to hide behind the fact that the word is different.

Your are using this as a way of confirming your own Nationalist Socialist beliefs. You and December have yet to contribute anything to society. While those who are "inferior" to you have helped the world. This is not me hurtling insults at you. this is me stating my opinion.

Now either prove me wrong or STFU.

[Newscaster]

Uncle claims that in the days before and during the Jesus era, Judaism was not the only religion. If he is referring to the various pagam religions such as those brought to the area by the Romans, he is correct. But if Uncle wants us to believe that Pharisees, Sadduces and Essenes were separate religions, he is dead wrong.
Those three groups were all Jewish but separated by differences in their beliefs and that split occurred among the most pious or Orthodox. A Pharisee was as much as Jew as a Sadducee but each played a different role between the overall religion. It is the spreading of misinformation such as spoken by Mr Uncle, is what causes problems.

[Uncle]

Uncle, that wasn't an insult. I agree with him, you have yet to respond to any of our posts, we have quoted the bible and more importantly we quoted you. Most of my arguement about wether Jesus was a Jew was quoted from you. I only used one other piece of information to prove you wrong, yet you say I have not used acceptable sources. ]Are you in the right thread? You have made two posts including this one in this thread.[/b]

You are not listening to any of our posts. I have proven that Judah, Benjamin and Levi were all Jewish. Yet you have decide to hide behind the fact that the word is different. Not making much since, but I will agree with you that the world is different. As to the Judah, Levi, Benjamin thing, it is responded to at the bottom of this post.

Your are using this as a way of confirming your own Nationalist Socialist beliefs. First off, I am a Capitalist and not a National Socialist. It might surprise you that there is a world of difference in the two. And secondly, even if I were a National Socialist, would that alter the truth of Jesus' ancestry? I think not. You and December have yet to contribute anything to society. I wasn't aware we had met on a personal basis and you knew my contributions to society. Maybe you would like to take this time to let everyone know what I have/have not contributed from my personal information. While those who are "inferior" to you have helped the world. This is not me hurtling insults at you. this is me stating my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I suppose. But, sometimes opinions will come back to bite you on the ass if you don't know what you are talking about.

Now either prove me wrong or STFU. There is not much to prove you wrong on since you have failed to post much. Maybe next time you will provide me with more. I would appreciate that. By the way, didn't you invite me to debate anything jewish? Now that I am doing so why do you want me to "STFU"?


In nine pages, Crimzonsol, you have made two posts that I could locate. In your first, (post #27 in this thread) you stated:
Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they [They or He?] may have converted to Judaism and in so doing you decreased the blood level of jews by stating that Benjamin, (meaning the 'tribe of', I assume) possibly converted, (apparently to the religion since one can't convert their race). The one above is your second. I have answered it inside the quote.

From Newscaster: Uncle claims that in the days before and during the Jesus era, Judaism was not the only religion. No, I said judaism did not exist. If he is referring to the various pagam religions such as those brought to the area by the Romans, he is correct. But if Uncle wants us to believe that Pharisees, Sadduces and Essenes were separate religions, he is dead wrong. OK. Let's say I am wrong. Now show how I am wrong. Show one time in any part of the Holy Bible where it says these three distinct religions were not unique to themselves and were instead all a part of Judaism. Should be simple for you.
Those three groups were all Jewish but separated by differences in their beliefs and that split occurred among the most pious or Orthodox. A Pharisee was as much as Jew as a Sadducee but each played a different role between the overall religion. It is the spreading of misinformation such as spoken by Mr Uncle, is what causes problems. True. The spreading of misinformation does cause problems. So, why don't you and everyone else who prefers calling names to honest exchange of ideas and beliefs, clear this up. Show us all, right there in the Bible, (which I am sure you own and have studied vigorously) where it states that Judaism even existed, (let alone where it states that the three aforementioned religions were a part of it). Pick your Bible up, I am sure it is right there next to you, and show us Chapter and verse, where it says these things you claim. And while you are at it, find the passage that says God Almighty changed the name of the Israelites to jews, or even to Judeans.

By the way, (just for grins), I mentioned the Essenes. They are not even written about in the Bible. I knew none of you scholars would notice. Now, watch for my next test.

[crimzonsol]

[In nine pages, Crimzonsol, you have made two posts that I could locate. In your first, (post #27 in this thread) you stated:
Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they [They or He?] may have converted to Judaism and in so doing you decreased the blood level of jews by stating that Benjamin, (meaning the 'tribe of', I assume) possibly converted, (apparently to the religion since one can't convert their race). The one above is your second. I have answered it inside the quote.



[quote=crimzonsol]
First Establishing Who is a Jew:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism.

So To be Jewish your Mother Has to Be Jewish(From The Tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin)

Which Tribes are Jewish?:
Brief History Lesson - 12 Tribes of Israel & The Split

After King Solomon died the 12 tribes of Israel split into The North Kingdom of Israel & The South Kingdom of Judah.
The Tribes Living in The North Kingdom of Israel
-Asher
-Dan
-Gad
-Issachar
-Joesph
-Naptali
-Reuben
-Simeon
-Zebulun
-Ephraim and Manasseh

The Tribes Living in the South Kingdom of Judah
-Judah
-Levi
-Benjamin

So from this we can counclude several things.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah:
First, Judah is Jewish.
Second, Levi had already established a covenant with God and was Jewish(Exodous 32: 26-29 Provided Bellow)
Third, Benjamin sided with Judah and lived in Judah.

Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they may have converted to Judaism.


The North Kingdom of Israel:

Ten Tribes Decided to create The North Kingdom of Israel.
They were conquered by The Assyrians and Deported. I wonder if there is any conection to the Lost Ten Tribes?



Conclusion

Based on the evidience above We can conclude that

Mary is Jewish
-Mary's Parents were Jewish(Levi&Judah)
-Mary's Mother was Jewish
-Mary even if concieved by God and Anna would be Jewish.

I'll do the Math for you.

Joachim(Jewish) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)
God(Other) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)

Jesus
-Mother was Jewish
-Concieved By God and Mary

The Math

God(Other) + Mary(Jewish) = Jesus(Jewish)



I have used info provided by you and the Mishna. So unless you are saying that you are wrong then I am right.

[Labrocca]

9 pages...I read page one...that's it. I can't imagine 8 more pages being on topic and actually being relevant. My last and only real comment in this thread...

WHO CARES?

[crimzonsol]

Funny, because things like this set off wars, so I would guess more than one person.
My stake in it is that Uncle has not replied in what I think is a appropriate fashion, something I have also done in an atempt to get him to talk. It worked with December.

And oddly enough it has all been on topic from what I've seen.

[Uncle]

[In nine pages, Crimzonsol, you have made two posts that I could locate. In your first, (post #27 in this thread) you stated:
[quote]Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they [They or He?] may have converted to Judaism and in so doing you decreased the blood level of jews by stating that Benjamin, (meaning the 'tribe of', I assume) possibly converted, (apparently to the religion since one can't convert their race). The one above is your second. I have answered it inside the quote.




First Establishing Who is a Jew:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism.

So To be Jewish your Mother Has to Be Jewish(From The Tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin)

Which Tribes are Jewish?:
Brief History Lesson - 12 Tribes of Israel & The Split

After King Solomon died the 12 tribes of Israel split into The North Kingdom of Israel & The South Kingdom of Judah.
The Tribes Living in The North Kingdom of Israel
-Asher
-Dan
-Gad
-Issachar
-Joesph
-Naptali
-Reuben
-Simeon
-Zebulun
-Ephraim and Manasseh

The Tribes Living in the South Kingdom of Judah
-Judah
-Levi
-Benjamin

So from this we can counclude several things.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah:
First, Judah is Jewish.
Second, Levi had already established a covenant with God and was Jewish(Exodous 32: 26-29 Provided Bellow)
Third, Benjamin sided with Judah and lived in Judah.

Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they may have converted to Judaism.


The North Kingdom of Israel:

Ten Tribes Decided to create The North Kingdom of Israel.
They were conquered by The Assyrians and Deported. I wonder if there is any conection to the Lost Ten Tribes?



Conclusion

Based on the evidience above We can conclude that

Mary is Jewish
-Mary's Parents were Jewish(Levi&Judah)
-Mary's Mother was Jewish
-Mary even if concieved by God and Anna would be Jewish.

I'll do the Math for you.

Joachim(Jewish) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)
God(Other) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)

Jesus
-Mother was Jewish
-Concieved By God and Mary

The Math

God(Other) + Mary(Jewish) = Jesus(Jewish)



I have used info provided by you and the Mishna. So unless you are saying that you are wrong then I am right.


My God, does crimzonsol want me to pick apart his entire first post? I already replied to the only part of that post that was relevant to the topic. It would be nice if he would respectfully reply to that.

Let me remind crimzonsol and everyone else that this is not a Mishnah analysis or a Talmud analysis or even an atheist analysis - It is a BIBLICAL ANALYSIS. Can we stay on track my young friend, and debate my assertions and comments and not my politics or "racism"? Quite simply this can be ended if we each and all of us make our commitments and our replies using only the Holy Bible as reference material. believe me, it is not complicated to do what is required in a debate seeking the facts. I promise you, if you can show me wrong - that Jesus the Christ was indeed a jew by race, then I will acknowledge that and make myself committed to educate others to that. My ego is not involved here. So I will not work this thread off emotions. I guarantee you I am in this topic for one reason only, and that is an education. Either those who claim Jesus was a jew will teach me so, or I will teach them otherwise.

Does anyone who is reading these words have anything from the Holy scriptures to show that the Israelites were transformed in name into jews by God Almighty or some other divine act? Does anyone have anything from the Bible which says that Judeans were a race and not a people from a city? I ask these things out of want for knowledge, not because I hate jews, as some here have stated. There is not one belief I own that I hold so dear that I am not willing to give it up for the truth. Give me that truth or be willing to accept mine. Thank you.

[Tsky]

"My "point" Tsky is to show that Jesus was not of the jewish faith as so many here claim. By that I can show that Jesus was not only not jewish by race or ethnicity but also not by religion. Many people here claim that Jesus practiced jewish religious customs and relgious beliefs yet they aren't even aware that judaism as a religion never existed in the new or old Testament. They reiterate that which they are told as though it is gospel when they have never taken the time to give it honest and deliberate thought." Uncle
***********************************************
Alright. So if you can prove the above then you should also be able to prove what race, ethnicity and religious Jesus was. I should also add that I don ‘t know if you believe the Bible or not or if you just try to use it to prove points that you think are worthwhile because I can't tell by reading your posts.

The issue of Jesus ethnicity can be solved by paying attention to Bible prophecy, Jesus' owns words and the lineage that was provided by Matthew and Mark. If Jesus is not Jewish then he is not a descendant of David and he cannot claim to be the Messiah, for the Messiah was to come in the line of King David, who was Jewish. He observed the Passover and other Jewish festivals, went to the Jewish synagogues, etc. His mother, father, sisters, brothers and friends were all Jewish so why would anyone assume Jesus was anything other than Jewish. At John 19:3 he is called 'the King of the Jews.'

However, Jesus was considered a heretic by Jews because instead of submitting to an endless list of laws he summed up the law by saying the law is 'loving God and neighbor.' It is also obvious that he said the way to life was through him, not sacrifice so he was certainly not practicing Judaism at that point. He paved the way for all peoples to be eligible for everlasting life, not just a chosen few and thus the establishment of Christianity. Now the Jews were told that Jesus was the Mediator between them and God and only by going through Christ to God could they attain life. Some accepted this, obviously most didn't.

Now to my point. If you claim that Jesus is not Jewish then you have more in common with the Jews then you think because they are waiting for the Messiah and you should be also, Jesus can’t be both the Messiah and non-Jewish.

I think you should convert to Judaism.

Thoughts?

[Newscaster]

I got a thought, Jews have enough problems to deal with without having Uncle as a member.
************************************************** ***********

Uncle, you claim Jesus was not a Jew. So, obviously you must know more than the thousands upon thousands of ministers, pastors, priests and just everyday Christians who teach and believe that he was.
Uncle, your idea is much like trying to convince he world that evolution never happened. It ain't gonna work, kiddo. It ain't gonna work.

[crimzonsol]

[In nine pages, Crimzonsol, you have made two posts that I could locate. In your first, (post #27 in this thread) you stated:
[quote]Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they [They or He?] may have converted to Judaism and in so doing you decreased the blood level of jews by stating that Benjamin, (meaning the 'tribe of', I assume) possibly converted, (apparently to the religion since one can't convert their race). The one above is your second. I have answered it inside the quote.




First Establishing Who is a Jew:
The Mishnah (Kiddushin 3:12) states that, to be a Jew, one must be either the child of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism.

So To be Jewish your Mother Has to Be Jewish(From The Tribes of Judah, Levi, Benjamin)

Which Tribes are Jewish?:
Brief History Lesson - 12 Tribes of Israel & The Split

After King Solomon died the 12 tribes of Israel split into The North Kingdom of Israel & The South Kingdom of Judah.
The Tribes Living in The North Kingdom of Israel
-Asher
-Dan
-Gad
-Issachar
-Joesph
-Naptali
-Reuben
-Simeon
-Zebulun
-Ephraim and Manasseh

The Tribes Living in the South Kingdom of Judah
-Judah
-Levi
-Benjamin

So from this we can counclude several things.

The Southern Kingdom of Judah:
First, Judah is Jewish.
Second, Levi had already established a covenant with God and was Jewish(Exodous 32: 26-29 Provided Bellow)
Third, Benjamin sided with Judah and lived in Judah.

Judah is Jewish.
Levi is Jewish
Benjamin decided to live with Judah and Levi, who where entirely Jewish. I think that they may have converted to Judaism.


The North Kingdom of Israel:

Ten Tribes Decided to create The North Kingdom of Israel.
They were conquered by The Assyrians and Deported. I wonder if there is any conection to the Lost Ten Tribes?



Conclusion

Based on the evidience above We can conclude that

Mary is Jewish
-Mary's Parents were Jewish(Levi&Judah)
-Mary's Mother was Jewish
-Mary even if concieved by God and Anna would be Jewish.

I'll do the Math for you.

Joachim(Jewish) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)
God(Other) + Anna(Jewish) = Mary(Jewish)

Jesus
-Mother was Jewish
-Concieved By God and Mary

The Math

God(Other) + Mary(Jewish) = Jesus(Jewish)



I have used info provided by you and the Mishna. So unless you are saying that you are wrong then I am right.


My God, does crimzonsol want me to pick apart his entire first post? I already replied to the only part of that post that was relevant to the topic. It would be nice if he would respectfully reply to that.


Why not? I picked apart your first post. You claimed the Judah was the only Jewish tribe, I proved you wrong. After that your only point was that he was not Jewish because Judaism did not exsit. Well you are right in that Judaism did not exsist back then, The religion exsisted under another name. Its like if I say African American you know I mean people who are black even people in history. The label Jew did not come into being untill much latter in history. But it is a label for a certain group of people who have exsisted since the roman Empire, so in todays society Jesus is Jewish because he was ethnically part of the group that we now call Jews. Back then he was not Jewish because that label was not applied until much latter.


Let me remind crimzonsol and everyone else that this is not a Mishnah analysis or a Talmud analysis or even an atheist analysis - It is a BIBLICAL ANALYSIS. Can we stay on track my young friend, and debate my assertions and comments and not my politics or "racism"?
Quite simply this can be ended if we each and all of us make our commitments and our replies using only the Holy Bible as reference material. believe me, it is not complicated to do what is required in a debate seeking the facts. I promise you, if you can show me wrong - that Jesus the Christ was indeed a jew by race, then I will acknowledge that and make myself committed to educate others to that. My ego is not involved here. So I will not work this thread off emotions. I guarantee you I am in this topic for one reason only, and that is an education. Either those who claim Jesus was a jew will teach me so, or I will teach them otherwise.


The Mishnah is considered to be part of the Torah, I thought you would know that. It is the compilation of oral laws that were combined into the religios laws of the Torah. So my using it was perfectly allowed by your rules. I used a resource that is part of the Torah and You to provide proof of my assertations.


Does anyone who is reading these words have anything from the Holy scriptures to show that the Israelites were transformed in name into jews by God Almighty or some other divine act? Does anyone have anything from the Bible which says that Judeans were a race and not a people from a city?


The problem is that you believe that they were transformed, that is not the case, they got a new name that they accepted. Read my first response to understand what I am saying.


I ask these things out of want for knowledge, not because I hate jews, as some here have stated. There is not one belief I own that I hold so dear that I am not willing to give it up for the truth. Give me that truth or be willing to accept mine. Thank you.


I have given you the truth and the proof to back it up, now it is up to you wether you accept it or if you continue in your ways.

I would also like to appologize my comments before. They were said in haste and anger. Regardless of what my opinion is I should not have disrespected you. I ask for forgiveness.

[mammalicious]

Am a little late getting back into this thread, but, as it's said, "the best laid plans....)

It is true that those who say they are jews claim that the bloodline of jews flows through the mother and the race of the father is irrelevant. Even if the father for hundreds of generations is a non-jew, (or as jews like to call us: Gentiles). Let's examine that real quick, shall we? If the father of a female child is black and the mother is 100% jewish the female child is still considered jewish even though 1/2 of her DNA is not jewish. Now, suppose that child marries an Asian man and they have a daughter, that daughter is still considered 100% jewish even though her DNA is only 1/4 jewish. Continue that and you reduce at the following rate: 1/8, 1/6, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, etcetera. So, in just 7 generations the jewish bloodline has been deluted to an almost nonexistent level. But yet that child is still considered 100% jewish. Remarkably stupid, isn't it? And these are the "jews who say they are jews and are not" (Revelations 3:9).

Back on topic: Judaism did not exist in the time of Joseph and Mary nor in the time of Jesus the Christ and so Jesus did not follow the teachings of judaism. Nor did jews exist during that time as a race as we know them today. Show me one time in the Bible where God changed the name of the Israelites, (not to be confused with Israelis) from Israelites to jews. You can't, and you wont even try because you know it was never written. And if it was never written then it never happened. Although todays jews claim to be of Davids seedline when you ask one to show you evidence of it, they refuse and start calling names or assaulting you instead of your message. Those who call themselves jews today have no connection with the bloodline of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, David, Jacob, or any other of the Adamic race.


So then the INRI at the top of the cross did NOT mean Jesus king of the Jews? wow.[hr]
Today jews will tell you, (and many misinformed "Christians" will agree) that judaism was the only religion of Jesus' time. This is a blatant lie. You see there were at least three in the Bible: The Pharisees, the Sadducees and the Essenes'. (Judaism btw managed to borrow from each of those 3 in creating the jewish religion). All three agreed on one thing: That there is only one God. The apostle Paul came from the pharisees and not from the later, (nonexistent at the time) judaism. Also, in the religion of the Pharasees there were subsects, just as today there are subsects of the Baptist and many other relgions.

The Sadducees did not believe in a life here-after, but did believe in a devine God. Half-assed atheist/agnostics?

The Essenes withdrew from all the other people and lived solely among themselves believeing that the Jerusalem Temple was corrupted, (Remember Jesus agreed when He took a whip to the money changers there?).

Let me also add here the Zealots. One of the desciples, Simons was a Zealot and their religious believes were similar to that of the Pharasees.

There were many others, (including the Pagans), but let's stop there as I am using these religions as a mere illustration to show that judaism did not even exist during the time of Jesus the Christ! There was not one religion during the time of the Christ known as judaism. Nor was there one person known as jews in any sense other than comeing from Judea, ( a city).

Further, if judaism was the only religion in the region and yet the entire Old Testament comes from that region who give us the Old Testament? The jews? How could they? They only believe in the first five books of the O.T., which they call the Torah, dismissing the rest of it in its' entirety.

Next lesson: Who are the jews and where did they come from?


Sorry...but the Pharisees(scribes, writers, rabbis), Saducees(priests, politicians), and Essenes were sects of Judaism. Just as you have many branches/sects of Christianity today...the same was true for Judaism in the time of Jesus. Matthew 23:2 Jesus instructs to be wary of those that teach(Sadducees) and of the Pharisees who interpret the laws of Moses...who do not practice what they preach. Jesus was taken before the Pharisees and the Sadducees to be ''tried'' before He was handed over to Pilate. Why would ''non-Jews'' bother about what another ''non-Jew'' was teaching??

[Uncle]

Why not? I picked apart your first post. You claimed the Judah was the only Jewish tribe, I proved you wrong. After that your only point was that he was not Jewish because Judaism did not exsit. Well you are right in that Judaism did not exsist back then, The religion exsisted under another name. What was this other name? Its like if I say African American you know I mean people who are black even people in history. The label Jew did not come into being untill much latter in history. But it is a label for a certain group of people who have exsisted since the roman Empire, citation needed so in todays society Jesus is Jewish because he was ethnically part of the group that we now call Jews. Back then he was not Jewish because that label was not applied until much latter. Then you agreeing here that Jesus was not a jew. This, boys and girls, is coming from a jew. I never said that Judah or any tribe was jewish. My statements in that matter all concluded that there were no tribes known as "jews". I asserted, (and still do) the word from which jew was bastardized into existence was originally Judean and it meant simply "people of Judea" a multi tribe location. I also assert that the Scriptures nowhere states that jews or Judeans are Israelites and so therefore jews are not Israelites.



The Mishnah is considered to be part of the Torah, I thought you would know that. It is the compilation of oral laws that were combined into the religios laws of the Torah. So my using it was perfectly allowed by your rules. I used a resource that is part of the Torah and You to provide proof of my assertations. The Mishnah is strictly jewish and is, as you stated, "a compilation of [jewish] oral laws." It is not something that is written into the Bible and thus invalid as a source.


Does anyone who is reading these words have anything from the Holy scriptures to show that the Israelites were transformed in name into jews by God Almighty or some other divine act? Does anyone have anything from the Bible which says that Judeans were a race and not a people from a city?


The problem is that you believe that they were transformed, that is not the case, they got a new name that they accepted. Read my first response to understand what I am saying. I have read all of your responses and none have enlightened me in any way. I do not believe jews were 'transformed', and you, nor anyone else has made any effort to show where this "new name that they accepted" came from or how it came about.


I have given you the truth and the proof to back it up, now it is up to you wether you accept it or if you continue in your ways. Apparently the posts where you have done this have been deleted as they do not exist in this thread. Please repost them.

I would also like to appologize my comments before. They were said in haste and anger. Regardless of what my opinion is I should not have disrespected you. I ask for forgiveness. No forgiveness necessary. I have attacked your core beliefs and anger is an emotion one should expect in such circumstances.

mammalicious wrote:
So then the INRI at the top of the cross did NOT mean Jesus king of the Jews? wow.
The correct translation into English of the Latin, (the mother tongue of Pontius Pilate), "Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudeorum", (INRI): "Jesus the Nazarene Ruler of the Judeans". Note it says Judeans and not jews. And it says Ruler and not King. The incorrect translation you posted mammalicious was not translated into the English language that way until the 18th century. This "INRI" that was placed on the cross above the head of Jesus the Christ was written in three languages and they all translated to what I have written here. Hope that helps you out, mammalicious. Jesus was known as a Judean when He lived in Judea, (just as one who resides in Texas is known as a Texan). No where in the original text of the Bible was He ever called a 'jew". You cannot take the word Judean, meaning "people of a locale" and magically change it into the word jew, meaning "a race of people".

[mammalicious]

No...the glaring mistake that immediately jumps out is that YOU translate REX as 'ruler'...it means KING.

The rest I looked up on Wikipedia...although it is not the only site that contradicts your translation. The KJV gospels do as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI

Jesus was known as a Judean when He lived in Judea, (just as one who resides in Texas is known as a Texan). No where in the original text of the Bible was He ever called a 'jew". You cannot take the word Judean, meaning "people of a locale" and magically change it into the word jew, meaning "a race of people".


In the KJV...Jews are referred to as Jews. I don't know what scriptures you are going by. But to try the po-tay-to/po-tah-to argument is weak at best. Playing semantics won't change the fact that the group of people that are now considered Jews (through observances/traditions/etc...) were still Jews before the term came about. (if you subscribe to the notion that they weren't called Jews back then) And using your ''people naming'' formula...what are people from Holland called? Hollanders? Hmmm...are people from Croatia called Croatian or Croats? Stands to reason that people from Jusea could then have been called Judeans or Jews.

[Newscaster]

Jew does not mean RACE.
Jew means adherent to a particular religion. There are Jews of all races around the word, Black, Brown, White, etc but they are Jews because they practice the Jewish religion.
Uncle, take a course in semantics first before you delve into that subject.

[mammalicious]

And since when is Jesus referred to as the ''Judean''? I have only seen Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the Nazarene or even the Galiliean...but never the Judean.

[Uncle]

No...the glaring mistake that immediately jumps out is that YOU translate REX as 'ruler'...it means KING.

The rest I looked up on Wikipedia...although it is not the only site that contradicts your translation. The KJV gospels do as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRI

Jesus was known as a Judean when He lived in Judea, (just as one who resides in Texas is known as a Texan). No where in the original text of the Bible was He ever called a 'jew". You cannot take the word Judean, meaning "people of a locale" and magically change it into the word jew, meaning