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lily
09-11-2007, 05:50 AM
Link (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1660677,00.html)


Petraeus Can't Heal the Iraq Divide
Monday, Sep. 10, 2007 By MARK THOMPSON / WASHINGTON

General David Petraeus and Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker look at each
other before testifying to a joint House Armed Services and Foreign
Relations Committee September 10, 2007

General David Petraeus came to Capitol Hill Monday with the weight of
history on his four-starred shoulders. Not since April 29, 1967, when
General William Westmoreland tried to sell the Vietnam War to a querulous
Congress, has a military officer's testimony been so freighted with import
for the nation's military, its foreign policy, and its place in the world
for the coming generation. And like Westmoreland before him - as one
Democratic congressman even noted during the hearing - Petraeus appeared as
a marked-down commodity, his prescription for the future in Iraq already
scrutinized - and discarded - by Democrats who see him increasingly as a
shill for the White House.


In a six-hour-plus session before the House armed services and foreign
affairs committees, even his call to begin pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq
later this month was insufficient to quell Democratic anger over the war's
prosecution. His uniform and beribboned chest offered scant protection from
lawmakers who have concluded that the war is already lost, or at best,
stalemated, and isn't worth more U.S. blood and treasure.

The hearing was a kaleidoscope of conflicting claims. Democrats warned of
continued U.S. deaths, a continued drain on the Treasury, and a threadbare
U.S. military if the war continued. Republicans raised the threat of a
resurgent al Qaeda and a loss of national honor and might if the U.S.
withdraws before the job is done. Petraeus spoke of what a good customer
Iraq has become for U.S. weapons, while Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to
Iraq testifying alongside Petraeus, warned that Iran's power and influence
would grow if the U.S. abandons Iraq prematurely. But the bottom line seemed
clear: Majority Democrats haven't coalesced around a single option to
brandish against the White House's conduct of the war. In the wake of
Monday's hearing - and a pair slated before the Senate on Tuesday - it
appears likely that there will be no major change in U.S. policy in Iraq
until at least next spring.
But that didn't stop the Democrats from trying. "It seems to me that we're
trying to be in the middle of a dysfunctional, violent family," Rep. Gary
Ackerman, D-N.Y., said more than three hours into the session, speaking of
Iraq's warring factions. "Can we afford to put a cop in every bad marriage,
especially when the parties aren't even showing up for counseling?" Rep. Ike
Skelton, the Missouri Democrat who heads the armed services panel, also
complained about the lack of political progress: "It appears to this country
lawyer that the leaders and parliamentarians in Iraq have been sitting on
their thumbs while the young men and women of America are doing their best
to bring security."

Skelton isn't alone. Even Crocker said he is "frustrated every day" by the
slow pace of political change in Iraq. "These are extremely complex
legislative endeavors, and Iraqis are engaging on them with fundamental
issues concerning the nature of the state as yet unresolved among them," he
said. "It is going to be difficult - it is going to take time." (He also
noted that the government recently pocketed a cool $3.75 billion for
auctioning off its cell phone rights, which Iraq plans "to apply to its
pressing investment and current expenditure needs.")

Republicans warned that Democrats have shouted "wolf" on national-security
issues before. Rep. Duncan Hunter, a California Republican who is running
for President and whose son has fought in Iraq, said he sees the war in
epochal terms. "I was here when the left in this body said that if we stood
up to the Russians in central Europe that President Ronald Reagan was going
to bring on World War III," he said. "Instead we stood tough and we brought
down the Berlin Wall."

Still, for the most part the Democrats had the edge in rhetoric, while GOP
members seemed more muted in their defense of the Administration. "While the
American people have great confidence in the troops and our brave men and
women in uniform, they have totally lost confidence at the top of our
national government," said Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Florida. "There's a complete
lack of credibility coming from the White House." Rep. Neil Abercrombie,
D-Hawaii, said the war debate boils down to a "very simple yet heartbreaking
fact - the rate and overall number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq has gone
up, not down, from 2006 to 2007," going from 462 in the first eight months
of last year to 720 over the same period in 2007.

Despite such a generally cool reception, it was incongruous to see the
glad-handing and grins that greeted Petraeus' arrival on Capitol Hill. It
seemed a curious mix of glam and grim that somehow seemed out of place when
debating how much longer U.S. troops should continue to fight, and die, for
an open-ended policy. Like clockwork, protesters, including Cindy Sheehan,
made themselves heard. "Tell the truth, general!" they shouted as Petraeus
made his way into the cavernous hearing room in the Cannon House Office
Building. Armed services panel chairman Skelton repeatedly ordered Capitol
police to escort hecklers from the session. Sheehan was arrested for
shouting in the hearing room shortly after the session began and charged
with disorderly conduct.

Skelton, a conservative Democrat, set the tone for the hearing when he
called Petraeus "almost certainly the right man for the job in Iraq, but
he's the right person three years too late and 250,000 troops short." After
45 minutes of opening statements from the four senior lawmakers present, in
a metaphor moment that defied belief, an inoperative microphone delayed
Petraeus' testimony for 13 minutes. "The military objectives of the surge
are, in large measure, being met," Petraeus finally got to say. But both he
and Crocker conceded the political progress the military surge was supposed
to make possible has not occurred.

Petraeus said the U.S. could soon begin cutting its 160,000 troops in Iraq,
starting with 2,000 Marines later this month and the pre-Christmas departure
of about 4,000 soldiers. The departure of an additional four brigades and
their support personnel would bring the U.S. troop level in Iraq down to its
pre-surge level of 130,000 by next summer's end. "None of us want to stay in
Iraq forever," Petraeus said as the hearing neared an end. "But what we want
to do is come home the right way, having added, I guess, to the heritage of
our services, accomplished the mission that our country has laid out for
us."

But many Democrats want deeper, quicker cuts. "Prime Minister Maliki and the
Iraqi politicians need to know that the free ride is over and that American
troops will not be party to their civil war," Rep. Tom Lantos of California,
the Democratic chairman of the foreign affairs committee. "We need to get
out of Iraq, for that country's sake and for our own. It is time to go - and
to go now."

Several GOP lawmakers blasted a full-page ad in Monday's New York Times the
featured a half-page photograph of Petraeus. "GENERAL PETRAEUS OR GENERAL
BETRAY US?" said the advertisement, placed by MoveOn.org, an antiwar group.
It zinged Petraeus for writing an op-ed for the Washington Post shortly
before the 2004 election lauding progress allegedly being made in Iraq. It
also criticized Petraeus for recent optimistic assessments that clash with
on-the-ground reports issued last week from congressional investigators and
a panel of retired military officers. The general bridled at any suggestion
that he would color his testimony to please his civilian masters. "This is
my testimony," the 33-year veteran said. "Although I have briefed my
assessment and recommendations to my chain of command, I wrote this
testimony myself. It has not been cleared by, nor shared with, anyone in the
Pentagon, the White House or the Congress."

The fact that his Petraeus' role has become so critical is, in itself, an
indictment of the war's conduct. After all, the military only carries out
the orders given to it by its civilian overseers, topped by the President.
When the civilians prefer to defer to the words of a general officer, it is
an acknowledgement that the credibility of those civilians has been so
battered that they're willing to abdicate to someone in uniform. Sometimes,
that's called a coup. On Monday, it seemed the Bush Administration's last
best chance to salvage what is left of its Iraq policy.

ECW
09-12-2007, 06:47 AM
Bush finally has the man for the job in Iraq, a man that agrees totally with how Bush wants to fight this war. In other words, a yes man.

I had held out hope that Patraeus would stand up and give an honest assessment of the troubles we are facing there but still stand his rhetorical ground in wanting to pursue the war but we got a cherry-picked assessment instead that played fast and loose with the realities and ignored the ethnic cleansing that is being carried out on a daily basis throughout Iraqi cities. He never mentions how a city like Baghdad goes from being 60% Sunni before the war to being 75% Shia now and the effect that is having on the safety of the city or the difficulties that no electricity or running water is having upon the population there. It was a whitewash by a yes man.

As usual, Bush will be leaving another mess in his wake for someone else to clean up just like he has his whole screwed up life.

ViolaLee
09-12-2007, 07:05 AM
One thing Patraeus did not agree with Bush is that the Iraq war makes us safer.

When republican Senator Warner asked Patraeus if the Iraq war made America safer, he replied he did not know, he hadn't thought about that.

Bush meanwhile says if we don't fight them over there, we will have to fight them over here. (a saying I've always thought was pretty stupid as Iraq has never been a threat to our country).

Senator Warner asked a very important question, and got a very discouraging answer. As the NIE and the GAO reports have shown, the Iraq war is NOT making is safer. In fact it is probably making us less safe as it is enraging more people to try to get revenge against us for starting it in the first place.

ECW
09-12-2007, 07:18 AM
I'm glad that Warner, not faced with re-election prospects, finally found his testicles. Great question, a George Bush answer.

ViolaLee
09-12-2007, 07:28 AM
Hagel also did a great job asking Patraeus questions.

Hagel is also a Republican who isn't running again.

Why are all the good ones leaving? Are they disgusted by the Republican party?

nevadamedic
09-12-2007, 07:34 AM
Bush finally has the man for the job in Iraq, a man that agrees totally with how Bush wants to fight this war. In other words, a yes man.

I had held out hope that Patraeus would stand up and give an honest assessment of the troubles we are facing there but still stand his rhetorical ground in wanting to pursue the war but we got a cherry-picked assessment instead that played fast and loose with the realities and ignored the ethnic cleansing that is being carried out on a daily basis throughout Iraqi cities. He never mentions how a city like Baghdad goes from being 60% Sunni before the war to being 75% Shia now and the effect that is having on the safety of the city or the difficulties that no electricity or running water is having upon the population there. It was a whitewash by a yes man.

As usual, Bush will be leaving another mess in his wake for someone else to clean up just like he has his whole screwed up life.


Patraeus is far from a yes man. He is a career soldier and was around long before President Bush was around. Same with Ambassador Crocker. If they were really yes men they wouldn't be pulling troops back as early as December and disagreeing with the many things they did.

Also this Skelton asshole needs to be kicked off this committee and out of office. He is obviously not mature enough to be in his position and sets a bad example.

tony mitra
09-12-2007, 08:07 AM
This thread started with the article questioning Mr. Petraeus's ability to heal the Iraq divide.

History dictates that this divide may be quite beyond the capacity of Mr. Petraeus, or anybody else, to heal. The country, however, could be kept together by an iron fist and a dictatorial ruler, such as Saddam.

The thing is, Iraq was never a unified country that was internally stable. The primary divide between the Shia and the Sunni started more or less the day their prophet Mohammed died, about 1400 years ago. It also has relationship to the historical, cultural, ethnic and linguistic divide between the Persians (Iran) and the Arabs. It is not going to go away just because Mr. Petraeus wants it to.

The Kurds are not even ethnically Arab, and neither are they Iranian. They came to settle on the land from myriads of folks that criscrossed the land coming from east and north all the way from Mongolia and India and such in the past millenia or two. They do not think Arab, do not Speak Arab and do not behave Arab. The divide between them, and the Arabs, is not going to go away either, no matter what Mr. Petraeus or others think.

The land, when administered under the Ottoman Empire, was segregated and controlled by three separate Sutanates. It is only when that empire collapsed, that Winston Churchill, the then Secretary of State for the Colonies, got busy to see that the British Govt manages to gobble up and as much of the fragments as possible instead of the French or the Germans. So he got busy with T.E. Laurence (of Laurence Of Arabia fame) and Gertrude Ball, to chalk up the map and the idea of this inherently unstable land, cobbled together as a nation and gave it the name Iraq, to be now controlled by the British Empire. As a facilitator, they propped up a member of the Saudi Arabia born Sunni Arab warlord and a Hashemite family member Mr. Faisal as the King, while Britain still held the mandate.

The proxy Empire collapsed when the Socialist Baath Party kicked the British and the Puppet King out, eventually leading to the rise of Saddam Hussain.

All of them, including the British and Saddam, kept the Shia, the Sunni and the Kurds together with an iron fist and under fear, either directly or through proxy puppets.

Today, things have not changed much. Four years after Saddam was dethroned, the people are still kept together by force, this time in the cross hairs of US guns.

So what else is new ?

No disrespect to Mr. Petraeus - but events are far beyond his control. People greater than him have tried and failed.

Cheers.

ECW
09-12-2007, 08:13 AM
Bush finally has the man for the job in Iraq, a man that agrees totally with how Bush wants to fight this war. In other words, a yes man.

I had held out hope that Patraeus would stand up and give an honest assessment of the troubles we are facing there but still stand his rhetorical ground in wanting to pursue the war but we got a cherry-picked assessment instead that played fast and loose with the realities and ignored the ethnic cleansing that is being carried out on a daily basis throughout Iraqi cities. He never mentions how a city like Baghdad goes from being 60% Sunni before the war to being 75% Shia now and the effect that is having on the safety of the city or the difficulties that no electricity or running water is having upon the population there. It was a whitewash by a yes man.

As usual, Bush will be leaving another mess in his wake for someone else to clean up just like he has his whole screwed up life.


Patraeus is far from a yes man. He is a career soldier and was around long before President Bush was around. Same with Ambassador Crocker. If they were really yes men they wouldn't be pulling troops back as early as December and disagreeing with the many things they did.

Also this Skelton asshole needs to be kicked off this committee and out of office. He is obviously not mature enough to be in his position and sets a bad example.


*tsk* *tsk* *tsk*

How do you think you get to be a career soldier? By bucking the higher ups or by going along? Not having your own opinion or holding the same opinion as your boss qualifies you as a "yes man" because you are not your own man. He may have been around a long time but that is merely testament to my point, not yours.

We've been hearing that we had to "wait until September" to evaluate the Surge and now he's wanting us to wait until late spring because progress is supposedly being made. It's the same line we have heard for four years now and we are no closer to leaving than we were in late 2003. Patraeus parroted the company line and Bush agreed with him before he was even finished testifying. Tell me again he is his own man.

Ambassador Crocker is another piece of work. Ambassador to Pakistan, the country that OBL is hiding out in and he cannot convince Musharraf to go after him and catch him. What a waste of space and time that guy is. Another "yes man" hired by Bush to parrot the company line.

Remember what happened to all the career military officers that DID NOT parrot the Bush company line? Gone, all gone. Everyone from Shinseki to Abizaid to Casey and all folks in between have been run out of the military because they saw stuff on the ground there in Iraq that did not jibe with the official line and that got them bounced.

Bush tolerates no dissent of any kind and anyone who does not toe the line is toast. Why is Patraeus still there? He toes the line. He's a "yes man."

Your comments about Skelton, a conservative Democrat that has served his nation for 40 years in Congress, show your immaturity about people who have the balls to speak out. Sad that you would find dissent and discussion so troubling that you would want to shut him up and kick him out. There is a bad example here but it's not Congressman Skelton who is setting it.

ON EDIT: You are right, Tony. Joe Biden has called for Iraq to be split up into three autonomous regions under a central government and that may be what solves this problem. Patraeus, parroting the company line, isn't going to get us there or anywhere else for that matter.

heyjude
09-12-2007, 04:23 PM
tony mitra, great post.ECW also. The Bush admin. decided we need to take over where England left off. The American Empire in the making. Under the leadership of King George. The English deliberately formed the country of Iraq in such a way as to assure it would never succeed. And it worked. Biden is hopelessly stupid. At any rate, a poll taken in Iraq showed an amazing 98% of Iraqis opposed to the division of Iraq. But I doubt if Biden cares. No one in our government, Democrat or Republican gives a damn what the Iraqis want.

Truth_and_Power
09-12-2007, 04:46 PM
Patraeus is far from a yes man. He is a career soldier and was around long before President Bush was around. Same with Ambassador Crocker. If they were really yes men they wouldn't be pulling troops back as early as December and disagreeing with the many things they did.

Also this Skelton asshole needs to be kicked off this committee and out of office. He is obviously not mature enough to be in his position and sets a bad example.


You would think that eventually the donkey would realize that the carrot keeps moving forward every time he gets close to it but he does not. He just keeps thinking that carrot is only a few months away.

Wait for the baker hamilton report.. wait for the petraeus report.. wait for december.. april.. wait for the next president.. wait for the tooth fairy..

TheStripey1
09-12-2007, 10:57 PM
Hagel also did a great job asking Patraeus questions.

Hagel is also a Republican who isn't running again.

Why are all the good ones leaving? Are they disgusted by the Republican party?

In one word, yes.[hr]

Bush finally has the man for the job in Iraq, a man that agrees totally with how Bush wants to fight this war. In other words, a yes man.

I had held out hope that Patraeus would stand up and give an honest assessment of the troubles we are facing there but still stand his rhetorical ground in wanting to pursue the war but we got a cherry-picked assessment instead that played fast and loose with the realities and ignored the ethnic cleansing that is being carried out on a daily basis throughout Iraqi cities. He never mentions how a city like Baghdad goes from being 60% Sunni before the war to being 75% Shia now and the effect that is having on the safety of the city or the difficulties that no electricity or running water is having upon the population there. It was a whitewash by a yes man.

As usual, Bush will be leaving another mess in his wake for someone else to clean up just like he has his whole screwed up life.


Patraeus is far from a yes man. He is a career soldier and was around long before President Bush was around. Same with Ambassador Crocker. If they were really yes men they wouldn't be pulling troops back as early as December and disagreeing with the many things they did.


The troops they are pulling out in december were supposed to be leaving ANYWAY...

Are you among the war mongers that think the troops should just stay there indefinitely and never come home?

[hr]
You would think that eventually the donkey would realize that the carrot keeps moving forward every time he gets close to it but he does not. He just keeps thinking that carrot is only a few months away.

Wait for the baker hamilton report.. wait for the petraeus report.. wait for december.. april.. wait for the next president.. wait for the tooth fairy..


great take on the situation, TaP...

lily
09-13-2007, 03:09 AM
So what else is new ?

No disrespect to Mr. Petraeus - but events are far beyond his control. People greater than him have tried and failed.

Cheers.


I came to the conclusion a long time ago that the Iraqis can not be forced into Democracy by the barrel of a gun. Maliki's days are numbered. The Iraqis want what everyone else wants, food, power and an honest days work. Al-Sadr has been able to give that to the people who support him and his army. With the backing of Ayatollah al-Sistani, I think in the next couple of years, either he will be the leader and all this will be for nothing, or the country will be divided into three and the fighting will still continue......hopefully we still won't be in the middle of it.[hr]
Wait for the baker hamilton report.. wait for the petraeus report.. wait for december.. april.. wait for the next president.. wait for the tooth fairy..


One thing that was glaringly lacking in Petraeus' report of how the death toll was declining is the 4 million plus people who have fled the country.

ECW
09-13-2007, 04:05 AM
One thing that was glaringly lacking in Petraeus' report of how the death toll was declining is the 4 million plus people who have fled the country.

...and the ethnic cleansing that helped the death toll go down in certain neighborhoods in Baghdad where one sect or the other no longer lives.

The military is not going to be able to provide a solution or even tamp down the violence so a solution can be found. Four years into a conflict we were told was a slam dunk should have told you that by now.