Does America really need this??

[Newscaster]

This article in the Memphis Commercial Appeal Newspaper was published on June 29th.

By Whitney Boyd
Contact
June 29, 2006
As drivers wait for a green light on Winchester Road, in Memphis, they automatically lean their heads forward to view the 72-foot sea-foam-green Statue of Liberation overlooking Hickory Hill.
The towering replica of the Statue of Liberty -- with a few Christian touches -- is being erected in front of the 12,000-member World Overcomers Outreach Ministries Church at Winchester and Kirby Parkway.

Replacing the recognizable torch, Lady Liberty holds a cross.
A beige sheet veils much of the $260,000 statue and will be removed during a Fourth of July ceremony.

Lady Liberty's uncovered eyes already peer down on the community. A tear falls from her right eye representing her concern for America.

Church members said the mixture of the statue and Christian symbols represent "America belonging to God through Jesus Christ."

The statue's famous inscription -- "Give me your tired, your poor ..." -- has been replaced with Roman numerals representing the Ten Commandments.

The seven-spiked crown that represents the seven seas of the world, has been changed to signify the seven redemptive names of Christ, according to church pastor Apostle Alton R. Williams.

Inscribed on the crown is the name Jehovah.

Workers are still assembling the Statue of Liberation for her Independence Day debut, but not all members of the community are happy.

"That church is trashing the meaning of America," said 11-year Hickory Hill resident Evelyn Douglass.

"The Statue of Liberty is a symbol of the United States of America," she said. "The cross represents a specific religion. It's not right that they are mixing the two."

Douglass now takes the long way home to avoid "the big green thing."

Across the street at Mapco Express, manager Mary Preyer awaits the final product.

"I like the idea of the Statue of Liberty holding a cross representing freedom through Jesus Christ," Preyer said. "I just think its funding could have been put to better use for the neighborhood. It's definitely got people talking."

Conversation is exactly what Williams hopes the statue will spark.

"People don't talk about Christ anymore and our morals are gone," Williams said. "People cannot drive by our statue without thinking about their relationship with God."

*******

But just how far will they go to inject Christianity into everything? This is a country made up of different nationalities, different beliefs, different religions. Thats what makes this country special. Its what makes us interesting and its what makes us best but when you try to make us all one type, the result is anything but.

Please dont capitalise all of the letters in the thread title. Thanks.

[BoogyMan]

But just how far will they go to inject Christianity into everything? This is a country made up of different nationalities, different beliefs, different religions. Thats what makes this country special. Its what makes us interesting and its what makes us best but when you try to make us all one type, the result is anything but.

One has to wonder if your view of free speech shouldn't cover this?

[Newscaster]

One more thing.........

Where do these people get the idea that they can change a time honored American symbol, The Statue of Liberty, to advance their personal belief. They can preach what they want, as many times as they want, but they dont own the Statue and they have NO RIGHT to change it. Just as they cannot change our flag by themselves or our national anthem.

[Newscaster]

Boogyman,
My entire career has been based on Freedom of Speech and the practice there of. Just like conservatives and fundamentalists think that burning the flag is sooooooo terrible........I consider this unauthorized alteration of something that is sacred to All Americans, not just Christians, as just as big a sin.

[BoogyMan]

Yet you would burn the flag, or argue for those that do, right? If that is true the hypocrisy bell is ringing loudly.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I tend to agree with Boogyman.
2. You types only want to destroy whats good, and we Christians want to better whats good in America.
3. Better some in America would leave it rather than continue to muck it up.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

wOW...THATS AMAZING.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But my * I just got my a$$ beat* alarm just went off again.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

gENTLEMEN, DESPITE YOUR "DEFENSE" OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH, i AM NOT SURE IF YOU EVER REALLY DEFENDED IT. i SPENT TWO TOURS IN VIETNAM DEFENDING your RIGHTS. i HAVE TWO PURPLE HEARTS AND A BRONZE STAR AMONG OTHERS.
DONT EVER TELL ME I WOULD BURN THE FLAG. I PUT MY LIFE ON THE LINE FOR THAT FLAG. HAVE YOU?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But if you are indeed ex Military, I for one respect that.
2. I don't respect those who criticize others for not being in the Military.
3. Boogyman may have mistaken you for a Flag burner supporter, but I think you indeed support it, unlike myself.
4. You do tend to be very liberal, and that spells Flag Burner!
5. People like me don't like your type.
6. You are an enigma, to us, you say you went to Nam, to protect Free Peoples, like me, but also you want to burn the Flag.
7. Flag burning started in the Nam era.
8. I think some folks like to contradict them selves as a thing of principle.
9. Which is a very confusing way to live.
10. Flag burning is wrong, face it I am correct!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[BoogyMan]

gENTLEMEN, DESPITE YOUR "DEFENSE" OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH, i AM NOT SURE IF YOU EVER REALLY DEFENDED IT. i SPENT TWO TOURS IN VIETNAM DEFENDING your RIGHTS. i HAVE TWO PURPLE HEARTS AND A BRONZE STAR AMONG OTHERS.
DONT EVER TELL ME I WOULD BURN THE FLAG. I PUT MY LIFE ON THE LINE FOR THAT FLAG. HAVE YOU?


It was my understanding that news people could read and could comprehend punctuation.Â*Â*I think if you look back my commentary was in the form of a question.Â*Â*Can't use the up arrow?Â*Â*I'll post it back in for you.


Yet you would burn the flag, or argue for those that do, right? If that is true the hypocrisy bell is ringing loudly.

Yet you, rather than answering the question, immediately jump to the rage phase of discussion denoting a complete loss of reason as well as the debate at hand.

Gads......

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But the Newscaster guy, wants to debate both sides of the Flag issue.
2. He's *against it*, because he fought in Nam, but *for it* because he likes Free Speech.
3. I see this as being rather fickle.
4. He has his own reasons I am sure, but just why? I cannot say.
5. I hope he can explain this to me so I can better know how to respond to some one else who thinks like this.
6. He's a Veteran, and I can respect Veterans if they are not hell bent on using their time in the Military to whack others over the head with it as if they have more rights to form opinions about this Nations Freedoms of Speech or what have you.
7. Newscaster guy, could do well to express his time in the Military, as time served, not time earned for some soap box drama queen pissing contest.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Athena]

But just how far will they go to inject Christianity into everything? This is a country made up of different nationalities, different beliefs, different religions. Thats what makes this country special. Its what makes us interesting and its what makes us best but when you try to make us all one type, the result is anything but.

One has to wonder if your view of free speech shouldn't cover this?


If this would mean Christians learn of Athena the Greek goddess of Liberty and Justice who defends those who stands for these things, it will be a good thing she is accepted by Christians. Christians have strongly objected to this pagan goddess. They strongly protested the Statue being errected as though she were an invader into Christian terrority. However, if this Chrisitized version of the Statue of Liberty is only a perversation of what the Statue of Liberty stands for, and serves to further increase the ignorance of the masses, it is a bad thing.

Personally, I resent the Christianizing of everything that is good, and the false belief that Christianity deserves the credit for all that is good. If it weren't for Greek and Roman classics, there would be no democracy, only backwards, superstitious, repressive Christian nations.

[Newscaster]

Why do I get the feeling that Chess and Boogy are both chickenhawks?
They protest just a wee bit too much and they attack people without having a clue of whom they consider the enemy.

Thats too bad.

Have a nice day.

[Athena]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I tend to agree with Boogyman.
2. You types only want to destroy whats good, and we Christians want to better whats good in America.
3. Better some in America would leave it rather than continue to muck it up.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


If you want to better things, keep your religion private as my grandmother did, and become literate in Greek and Roman classics and the philosophy of enlightenment. This will bring you to appreciate democracy and enable you to talk about it.

[BoogyMan]

Why do I get the feeling that Chess and Boogy are both chickenhawks?
They protest just a wee bit too much and they attack people without having a clue of whom they consider the enemy.

Thats too bad.

Have a nice day.


Someone of lesser integrity would be angered by this type of baiting Newscaster, but your typical tactics arent going to work with me.Â*Â*If you wish to debate a topic, lose the hypocritical attitudes and lets talk.

Until then, I hope you have a nice day as well.

[Nathan Brazil]

One more thing.........

Where do these people get the idea that they can change a time honored American symbol, The Statue of Liberty, to advance their personal belief. They can preach what they want, as many times as they want, but they dont own the Statue and they have NO RIGHT to change it. Just as they cannot change our flag by themselves or our national anthem.


I just flew out to New York and back, just to see.Â*Â*No, the Statue of Liberty is still standing around, looking bored, in New York harbor.Â*Â*Doesn't seem like anyone's molested her.Â*Â*I guess those jesus freaks built their own statue.Â*Â*And as a former propagandist yourself, I'm sure you're aware that those people can make any sort of stupid political and religious statement they wish.

First Amendment, ya know?

[Newscaster]

Sorry boogyman but you great desire to debate will have to go unanswered for several reasons, chief among them, a lack of a desire to stay on line engaging in pointless debate. I dont expect to convince you to change your attitudes and you will not change mine.

But I would suggest you study an old old saying....."Know your enemy."
Dont attack until you know who you are attacking and you have real debatable ammunition rather than things most people have heard time and time again.

So, as I said in my last post....."Have a nice day."

[Newscaster]

Oh, one more quick question.

How many of you patronize the website called Free Republic?
Just curious.

[Nathan Brazil]

Oh, one more quick question.

How many of you patronize the website called Free Republic?
Just curious.


Relevance to the topic at hand?

[Newscaster]

Relevance: to conservative and republican philosophy. Free Republis is hardcore conservative and I detect that here.
Thats relevance.

[Nathan Brazil]

Relevance:Â*Â*to conservative and republican philosophy. Free Republis is hardcore conservative and I detect that here.
Thats relevance.


Oh, in other words, it's not relevant at all, and you're merely trying to hijack the thread. The thread is about some religious kooks excercising their First Amendment freedom to show others what idiots they are. You claim they don't have that freedom.

[Athena]

[Oh, in other words, it's not relevant at all, and you're merely trying to hijack the thread.Â*Â*The thread is about some religious kooks excercising their First Amendment freedom to show others what idiots they are.Â*Â*You claim they don't have that freedom.Â*Â*


The wording here marks the writer as someone who is probably young, and for sure disrespectful. It is the rude and crude language that discredits the person. It surely is not the way to make a better world, but serves to tear it down and generate hostility, and the practice of making personal attacks in place of reason.

[Nathan Brazil]

[Oh, in other words, it's not relevant at all, and you're merely trying to hijack the thread.Â*Â*The thread is about some religious kooks excercising their First Amendment freedom to show others what idiots they are.Â*Â*You claim they don't have that freedom.Â*Â*


The wording here marks the writer as someone who is probably young, and for sure disrespectful.Â*Â*It is the rude and crude language that discredits the person.Â*Â*It surely is not the way to make a better world, but serves to tear it down and generate hostility, and the practice of making personal attacks in place of reason.Â*Â*



I"m practicing perfect reason. The thread shouldn't be turned into a discussion of who habituates what Internet discussion forums. It shouldn't attempt to use participation in those forums as a means of undermining a particular poster's stance on this issue of silly statues.

The thread is about a group's distortion of a familiar icon into some evil religious gargoyle. Anyone disagreeing with this act should base their disagreements on common philosophical or legal principles instead of relying on a new form of McCarthyism.

You're right, the Newscaster should restrict his commentary to the facts, and not make personal attacks to divert thread.

[Newscaster]

How exactly is calling a website hardcore conservative translate into a personal attack. If I was to say "Joe Blow Is A Putz" that would be a personal attack.
But to call a website Hardcore conservative, first is not an attack but a characteriztion, and since not a single habitue of the website was named, it is hardly personal. I think someone (unamed and therefore not personal) is giving him or herself a needless wedgie. :P

[PittsburghAfterDark]

So why can't a church put this up?

What's the harm in that?

If there's nothing wrong with elephant dung on a portrait of the Virgin Mary, a crucifix in a jar of urine or any other unimaginable religous sacriliges are funded by the NEA why can't a church parody the state?

Seems turnabout really sucks huh.

[BoogyMan]

Pittsburgh,

There is a simple answer to your question. These guys want to push religion into a hole and cover it up. They want freedom FROM religion, not freedom OF religion.

[Newscaster]

Pittsburgh, the works of art that you use as examples are protested and protested hard. Just as this altered Statue of Liberty should be protested.

We have honored that Statue because of the message it sends and the national enrichment that it represents. We would no more think of putting Lady Liberty in Bermuda Shorts and running shoes than we would of, on our own, changing the American flag into a series of polka dots.

The paintings you mention were done by artists who wanted to shock the viewer. Thats why we protested. But this statue is done because the church sponsoring it believes it represents what America is all about and if you dont think the same way, you have the right to protest.

And lets face it.....to build a statue of liberty and pass it off as your own work, is plagerism, artistic theft.

When you change a national icon for your own purposes, you better expect protest from those who dont endorse the changes.

I find it amazing that you and some others dont understand that.

[Nathan Brazil]

And lets face it.....to build a statue of liberty and pass it off as your own work, is plagerism, artistic theft.

When you change a national icon for your own purposes, you better expect protest from those who dont endorse the changes.

I find it amazing that you and some others dont understand that.


What, they're pretending that the idea for a statue holding a book in one hand and a phallic symbol in the other hand originated solely with them, or are you just claiming they said this?

What's funny is watching the left have conniptions over this, after the decades they made justifiable fun over the bushels of nuts on the right complaining about leftist iconoclasm.

Doubly funny is the left's conceit that they have anything to do with the preservation of liberty in this country.

[BoogyMan]

And lets face it.....to build a statue of liberty and pass it off as your own work, is plagerism, artistic theft.


Please tell me that you are kidding?! Did they say that they designed THE statue of liberty or is that just another fatalistic attempt to try and tar these people.

I am amazed.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Pittsburgh, the works of art that you use as examples are protested and protested hard. Just as this altered Statue of Liberty should be protested.

We have honored that Statue because of the message it sends and the national enrichment that it represents. We would no more think of putting Lady Liberty in Bermuda Shorts and running shoes than we would of, on our own, changing the American flag into a series of polka dots.

The paintings you mention were done by artists who wanted to shock the viewer. Thats why we protested. But this statue is done because the church sponsoring it believes it represents what America is all about and if you dont think the same way, you have the right to protest.

And lets face it.....to build a statue of liberty and pass it off as your own work, is plagerism, artistic theft.

When you change a national icon for your own purposes, you better expect protest from those who dont endorse the changes.

I find it amazing that you and some others dont understand that.


Funny, all I here is WHINE.

When does the left care about plagarism?Â*Â*Joe Biden made it a centerpiece of his political stump speeches.Â*Â*He's now a Presidential candidate, unofficially of course.

I will bet dollars to donuts you never gave a rats ass about the desecration of relgous symbols and images funded by the government.

Now, however, you want us to believe you are genuinely upset.

Sorry, not buying.

The only thing you're upset about is a church expressing the same type of freedoms any other organization or group in the country has taken advantage of.

Sucks to be you today huh?

You want to be outraged and indignant?

Go right ahead. Flame moveon.org before you have one iota of credibility.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/U/6/liberty_hooded.jpg

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Maybe GW Bush is behind it?
2. Yeah, this is just a small part of all the lies. lol!!!
3. I think Newscaster needs to get hold of reality again.
4. The Church can do what it wants.
5. Its a Free Country!
6. Protected from people like you.
7. Get used to it, its only getting started good.

Regards,
SirjamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Gentlemen, that church statue is carrying a cross instead of a torch and the ten commandments instead of the Declaration of independence.

[Newscaster]

AS i WAS SAYING, NOT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A CHRISTIAN AND THEY DO NOT RESPOND TO CROSSES OR ANYTHING BIBLICAL. bY PUTTING UP THAT STATUE IS AN INSULT TO NON-CHRISTIANS, BECAUSE THE REAL STATUE OF LIBERTY IS A BEACON FOR ALL PEOPLE. tHATS "all people". cAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
aND THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WELCOMES ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST CHRISTIANS AND CERTAINLY NOT JUST FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS.

THE UNITED STATES IS A COUNTRY FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE ASMERICANS OR WHO STRIVE TO BECOME CITIZENS AND ANY ATTEMPT TO KEEP SHOVING ONE CERTAIN RELGION IN THE FACES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FAITHS IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OR THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

AND THIS IS THE LAST i HAVE TO SAY ON THIS ISSUE.

HAVE A NCE DAY. PERIOD.

[Nathan Brazil]

AS i WAS SAYING, NOT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A CHRISTIAN AND THEY DO NOT RESPOND TO CROSSES OR ANYTHING BIBLICAL. bY PUTTING UP THAT STATUE IS AN INSULT TO NON-CHRISTIANS, BECAUSE THE REAL STATUE OF LIBERTY IS A BEACON FOR ALL PEOPLE. tHATS "all people". cAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
aND THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WELCOMES ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST CHRISTIANS AND CERTAINLY NOT JUST FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS.

THE UNITED STATES IS A COUNTRY FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE ASMERICANS OR WHO STRIVE TO BECOME CITIZENS AND ANY ATTEMPT TO KEEP SHOVING ONE CERTAIN RELGION IN THE FACES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FAITHS IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OR THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

AND THIS IS THE LAST i HAVE TO SAY ON THIS ISSUE.

HAVE A NCE DAY.Â*Â*Â*Â*PERIOD.



Sure it's an insult. That's obvious. But you have to choose to let the insult bother you.

Can't you see the humor in it, though? Those people building this statue think they'll be attracting more converts to their way with this thing. Like you say, it's offensive and it's net effect will be, I'm sure, quite the opposite of what they want.

So just chill, and let'em have their fun. This is America, after all.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But burn the actual thing that represents this Nation, The Flag, thats okay by a Liberal.
2. But change a thing that welcomes new legal immigrants to America and that's just over the top sinful, to a Party that has no Gawd but themselves.
3. This is fantastic, we get to see the Democratic Party implode, who would of thought that these kinds of things would be so affective in defeating the Liberals slow removal of all things Gawd or Jesus, from America.
4. I see we need to get more of these kinds of things in action.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[PittsburghAfterDark]

AS i WAS SAYING, NOT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A CHRISTIAN AND THEY DO NOT RESPOND TO CROSSES OR ANYTHING BIBLICAL. bY PUTTING UP THAT STATUE IS AN INSULT TO NON-CHRISTIANS, BECAUSE THE REAL STATUE OF LIBERTY IS A BEACON FOR ALL PEOPLE. tHATS "all people". cAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
aND THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WELCOMES ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST CHRISTIANS AND CERTAINLY NOT JUST FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS.

THE UNITED STATES IS A COUNTRY FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE ASMERICANS OR WHO STRIVE TO BECOME CITIZENS AND ANY ATTEMPT TO KEEP SHOVING ONE CERTAIN RELGION IN THE FACES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FAITHS IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OR THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

AND THIS IS THE LAST i HAVE TO SAY ON THIS ISSUE.

HAVE A NCE DAY.Â*Â*Â*Â*PERIOD.



And of course the discussion ends without comment on how it's not wrong for the American left to disparage the country using the SoL but it is for Christians to do so.

Typical.

[Newscaster]

Pittsburgh, the American left does not disparage the country. It disparages the people now in charge. The one who have made us a pariah around the world. Who turned our former friends against us and have put us in trouble in many ways, financially, diplomatically, militarily, not mention just a few.

Cheeseywars thinks he is seeing the Democratic Party Implode. I got news for you baby, it is the Republicans who are in deep trouble and who qare doing a lot of scrambling and spinning. The democrats have ONE (1) congressman indicted for bribery. The Republicans have entire platoon of politicos being indicted almost every day and several of them with very close ties to Shrub. And if after november, if control of congress changes hands, dont be surprised to find Bushie being impeached.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Pittsburgh, the American left does not disparage the country.

http://tinypic.com/iykfoh.jpg

Here's a link for you. I recommend you examine the contents of this site thuroughly. (http://www.nami.org/)

[Nathan Brazil]

Pittsburgh, the American left does not disparage the country. It disparages the people now in charge. The one who have made us a pariah around the world. Who turned our former friends against us and have put us in trouble in many ways, financially, diplomatically, militarily, not mention just a few.

Sure they do. It was the Democrats who booed the Boy Scouts who brought the flag on stage at Al Gore's convention in 2000.

It's the Democrats who find fault in everything America does. "We use too much oil." "We think we're better than other countries." "We don't let the UN decide what we should do." "We're single handedly destroying the world because Bush won't agree to the Kyoto Treaty". All that nonsense...what the hell do you think it is, if not disparagment of the United States?

Cheeseywars thinks he is seeing the Democratic Party Implode. I got news for you baby, it is the Republicans who are in deep trouble and who qare doing a lot of scrambling and spinning. The democrats have ONEÂ*Â*(1) congressman indicted for bribery. The Republicans have entire platoon of politicos being indicted almost every day and several of them with very close ties to Shrub. And if after november, if control of congress changes hands, dont be surprised to find Bushie being impeached.

Bush won't be impeached. Doesn't matter who's in control of the House. There has to be a crime, first, and there hasn't been one, not even a faked up one like the Valerie Plame circus.

The Republican Party is in trouble because....? Because the Republican politicians have been acting exactly like Democrats. If they stopped acting like Democrats and started acting like Americans, the fortunes of the GOP would surge forward like a jalopy with a JATO.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. I wonder where else we can go with this emblem copy idea.
2. Seems our Newscaster guy, has got a real problem with spelling my id now, that's not allowed there partner, could be called hostile attack.
3. But you have fun with it partner.
4. Its just shows how badly you are being whacked here.
5. I have single handily set out to destroy the Democratic Party, and it looks like its working to me.
6. I am a go getter, I get things done!
7. The Republicans will gain more seats this election year, there's no doubt about it.
8. PAD nice find on that cartoon, its perfectly representing the Democrats.
9. And oh yes we still have all our allies throughout the World, and have added many new ones, including Iraq, Lybia.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Okay Nathan, you go ahead and continue to hold onto your dreams. We'll just wait and see what happens in November of this year and in 2008. I hope you are not too surprised or shocked. You see, before you formulate an opinion, you must look at a problem from all angles. I dont believe that you do. But thats your right. No one says the MUST be fully informed. No one says you must believe one way and disregard all other ideas........oh wait, the Republicans do that.

So, as I have said many times here....have a nice day.

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Newscaster, not only have you stopped responding to my rebuttals but I have to reaffirm my stance on the media given your arguments here.

You are anything but impartial or objective. A trait you share with so many in your former/current profession.

Now it's perfectly fine that you share your opinions in a forum designed for personal, not professional, thoughts. However you've done more than your fair share of re-enforcing the stereotype of journalists being open partisan warriors trying, with an overwhelmingly futile effort, to scream "I'M OBJECTIVE DAMMIT!".

You're not. Neither were/are the rest of your colleagues.

I suspect that you're even trying to mask your partisan tendencies but... you're failing miserably.

You made your introduction when you joined that you were trying to do your best to immitate a slug. I replied that you're a journalist, I thought they were one in the same.

While I was chastised by some people privately for that statement. I stand by it.

You're not fully informed and you completely disregard all other ideas.

You.

Are.

Not.

Objective.

Stop pretending you are.

[Nathan Brazil]

Okay Nathan, you go ahead and continue to hold onto your dreams. We'll just wait and see what happens in November of this year and in 2008. I hope you are not too surprised or shocked. You see, before you formulate an opinion, you must look at a problem from all angles. I dont believe that you do. But thats your right. No one says the MUST be fully informed. No one says you must believe one way and disregard all other ideas........oh wait, the Republicans do that.

So, as I have said many times here....have a nice day.


What dreams? I stated facts. A pinko leftie is going to win the election in 2008. I don't know if it's going to be Democrat pinko leftie or a Republican one, but that's what will win. And since a pinko leftie will win the office, the nation will continue to go downhill, because that's the goal of pinko lefties.

Oh, and you don't read very well, do you? I mean, you pretend to be a former newspaper boy, but here you are, trying to paint me as a Republican, in a response to a post in which I slammed both the Donkey Dung and the Elephant Turds equally. Heck, its pretty obvious that you even think the modern GOP is "right wing". That's pretty funny. At least we know why you're a former newsman.

[Athena]

AS i WAS SAYING, NOT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY IS A CHRISTIAN AND THEY DO NOT RESPOND TO CROSSES OR ANYTHING BIBLICAL. bY PUTTING UP THAT STATUE IS AN INSULT TO NON-CHRISTIANS, BECAUSE THE REAL STATUE OF LIBERTY IS A BEACON FOR ALL PEOPLE. tHATS "all people". cAN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?
aND THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WELCOMES ALL PEOPLE, NOT JUST CHRISTIANS AND CERTAINLY NOT JUST FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS.

THE UNITED STATES IS A COUNTRY FOR ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE ASMERICANS OR WHO STRIVE TO BECOME CITIZENS AND ANY ATTEMPT TO KEEP SHOVING ONE CERTAIN RELGION IN THE FACES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THEIR OWN FAITHS IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS OR THE STATUE OF LIBERTY.

AND THIS IS THE LAST i HAVE TO SAY ON THIS ISSUE.

HAVE A NCE DAY.Â*Â*Â*Â*PERIOD.



Well said.

In fact the Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice, and Spirit of America (represented in a mural of the gods in the Capital building) are the 3 aspects of Athena, Athens goddess of Liberty, Justice and Defense.
This is not a Christian symbol but predates Christianity and is Hellenistic.
It represents a universal God of reason. This is nothing like the humanized tribal God of Abraham. However, Hellenism influenced Christianity. Christians have taking from the genius of others, and given it a Christian interpretation since the beginning of Christianity, and I resent this distortion of truth.

[Athena]

So why can't a church put this up?

What's the harm in that?

If there's nothing wrong with elephant dung on a portrait of the Virgin Mary, a crucifix in a jar of urine or any other unimaginable religous sacriliges are funded by the NEA why can't a church parody the state?

Seems turnabout really sucks huh.



Two wrongs do not make a right. I think disrepecting people's religious symbols is wrong. Being disrespectful is wrong. Being rude and crude is wrong. But taking of the Statue of Liberty and Christianizing it, is wrong if misleads people to thinking Christianity and the bible gave us democray. No one saw democracy in the bible until there was literacy in Greek and Roman classics and that is literacy is essential to perserving democracy. The bible can not do that. That makes Christianizing the Statue of Liberty a threat to democracy.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But this so called Newcaster sure spells like sh!t.
2. Anyone else noticed?
3. I am beginning to think this guys full of what ever he's trying to spell.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Newscaster]

Chesswars, so now you go after people for their typing? I told you before, dont attack someone you know nothing about. I know full well I am a lousy typist. But what you dont know is that I have severe arthritis in my hands making typing difficult. But I am sure you don't care.

Oh, by the way, why do you number every sentence you write?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I didn't know that arthritis effected the brain this way.
2. You have my apologies.
3. I will try to over look the constant misspellings.
4. A fat finger here or there, is understandable, for most folks.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Athena]

Sorry bout that,

1. But I didn't know that arthritis effected the brain this way.
2. You have my apologise.Â*Â*(apologies)
3. I will try to over look the constant misspellings.
4. A fat finger here or there, is understandable, for most folks.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


As I told an owner of another forum, saying things that make posters feel bad, is not a good way to encourage participation.Â*Â*

These 3 rules usually work pretty well

1. We respect all people, because we are respectful people.Â*Â*It doesn't matter if the other is a bum or the mayor, because it isn't the other person who determines how we behave.

2.Â*Â*We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others.

3.Â*Â*We do all things with integrity.Â*Â*

Besides what does spelling have to do with the subject?Â*Â*If a personal comment must be made, perhaps it should it be a PM and not a public announcement.Â*Â*

[Newscaster]

Athena, I truly appreciate your words to Mr Chesswarsnow but really, his comment in no way make me feel bad. I just consider the source and the result is long and loud laughter on my part.

Your lesson to him on ettiquette is also appreciated but I would imagine that in the case of Mr Chess, pointless. So, I am content to allow him to prattle on, secure in the fact that his effect on the world is miniscule if at all.

[Athena]

Athena, I truly appreciate your words to Mr Chesswarsnow but really, his comment in no way make me feel bad. I just consider the source and the result is long and loud laughter on my part.

Your lesson to him on ettiquette is also appreciated but I would imagine that in the case of Mr Chess, pointless. So, I am content to allow him to prattle on, secure in the fact that his effect on the world is miniscule if at all.


I enjoy sharing the rules for good relationships whenever the opportunity comes up, and hopefully more than a few people read what we are saying. What American needs is rules for good relationships. Being respectful, acting with dignity and protecting the dignity of others, and acting with integrity, solves a lot of social problems, including the unpleasantness of disrespecting people's religions and ethnicity.

Silently tolerating the unpleasant person, is like doing nothing about the feces in the swimming pool. When human beings behave in a manner that is unpleasant for others, it is polluting the living waters in which we all live. I do not stay on forums where this is tolerated. I do not choose to bring unpleasantness into my life by Internet or television, when doing so can serve no good purpose. I am hoping to encourage others to make the effort to make life more pleasant too. I want to leave my children and their children, a good reality, not one trashed by careless humans. And it seems today, there is more defense of being crude and rude than for having high standards. I wonder why that is?

[Nitrus]

Are you comparing this man to faeces?

[Newscaster]

Having rules for good relationships is a fine goal to work toward but I would say that goal is rather improbable because people are not all the same and are not prone to march in lockstep with everyone else.
There are some who believe they achieve great things by acting unlike most other people. They believe they get their point across by being crass dis disrespectful. Thats why rules in many cases just dont work. You just have to be the best you can be and hope it rubs off on others. If It doesnt, just dont bother with those people.

[Athena]

Having rules for good relationships is a fine goal to work toward but I would say that goal is rather improbable because people are not all the same and are not prone to march in lockstep with everyone else.
There are some who believe they achieve great things by acting unlike most other people. They believe they get their point across by being crass dis disrespectful. Thats why rules in many cases just dont work. You just have to be the best you can be and hope it rubs off on others. If It doesnt, just dont bother with those people.


Can we be more scientific about this?Â*Â*The Declaration of the Independence speaks of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God.Â*Â*We share these forums with untold people from around the world.Â*Â*What we do here can be inspirational or comforting or informational, or it can be hurtful and unpleasant.Â*Â*I am calling our shared reality the living waters, and I am saying when people are intentionally hurtful or unpleasant, it polutes the water.Â*Â*This is a spiritually harmful thing to do.Â*Â*Can anyone give a good reason for being bad mannered?Â*Â*Killing people gets rid of unpleasant people, but some would say this is going too far.Â*Â*I am saying being crass and disrespectful to get a point across is going too far.Â*Â*It degrades humanity and lowers the quality of discussion.

I have recieved negative points for my opinion, and I am assuming those who are crass and disrespectful are being tolerated, and are not getting negative points because this bad behavior is being defended by those who moderator the forums.Â*Â*That is okay.Â*Â*I have dealt with this ever since these Internet exchanges of opinions began.Â*Â*I accept reality; it is more okay to be unpleasant than to say this wrong.Â*Â* It is a sad world we are creating for ourselves, and frankly I don't understand why the person who speaks in favor of high morals and opposes hurting others and is the most disliked, but that is the way it is.Â*Â*And some wonder why Jesus was persecuted.Â*Â*:D Socrates was ordered to hemlock. Humans are strange creatures. They can be as the Gods, but choose to be as fanged animals in the jungle.

[Athena]

Are you comparing this man to faeces?


I apologize. I did say "person", instead of the "unpleasant behavior" which I intended to be the subject. The person could be a totally charming fellow, as all I know about is this one occasion of unpleasant wording, not the person. Obviously my own wording was lacking and offensive.

[BoogyMan]

I apologize.Â*Â*I did say "person", instead of the "unpleasant behavior" which I intended to be the subject.Â*Â*The person could be a totally charming fellow, as all I know about is this one occasion of unpleasant wording, not the person.Â*Â*Obviously my own wording was lacking and offensive.Â*Â*


Athena, we have had our differences, but I have to say that it takes character to step up and make an admission like this one.Â*Â*:)

Cheers

[Athena]

I apologize.Â*Â*I did say "person", instead of the "unpleasant behavior" which I intended to be the subject.Â*Â*The person could be a totally charming fellow, as all I know about is this one occasion of unpleasant wording, not the person.Â*Â*Obviously my own wording was lacking and offensive.Â*Â*


Athena, we have had our differences, but I have to say that it takes character to step up and make an admission like this one.Â*Â*:)

Cheers


Hum, what you think I am admitting to?Â*Â*Newscaster said,
"So, I am content to allow him to prattle on, secure in the fact that his effect on the world is miniscule if at all".Â*Â*And I disagreed with this.Â*Â*I said ignoring him is equal to ignoring a polutant.Â*Â*I don't think it is harmless to be insulting.Â*Â*I think it is distructive and in forums where this is tolerated, there is no intellectual discussion, just an unpleasant exchange of insults, and on the grander scale, some people think Americans are very bad mannered people, and some even justify war against us because of our assumed low immorality.

We once thought good manners and morals were synomous and I wish we did so today.Â*Â*

However, because Newscaster spoke of "him" I replied with the word "person" when perhaps I should have used the word "insult".Â*Â*Maybe I should have said the insult should not be ignored, instead of saying the "person" should not be ignored.Â*Â*However, the insult was an attention getting behavior, and it is the person who should be corrected, and the person who was the subject of which Newscaster spoke, so it wasn't a big wrong for me to say person instead of insult.Â*Â*My wording left an opening for misinterpretation, that is all.Â*Â*However, if someone took offense because of my wording, I should apologize shouldn't I?Â*Â* I am human and humans aren't perfect.Â*Â*That is okay isn't it?Â*Â*

It would be nice if this discussion moved on to the subject of good manners and morality being synonomous, and more important to our democracy and liberty than laws and law enforcers.Â*Â*This is what I was attempting to discuss.Â*Â*The Laws of Nature and Nature's God.Â*Â*The understanding that is essential to democracy.Â*Â*You know, that for which our Statue of Liberty stands, and why I object to this symbol of liberty being Christianized.Â*Â* There is a moral connection between Christianity and democracy, but that morality can stand without Christianity, and Christianity without democracy, is not a good thing.Â*Â* That is no better than Islam (Muslims) without democracy. Our problem is, we no longer understand what morality has to do with democracy, but some think there is no morality without religion.

[Nathan Brazil]

But good manners and morality have little in common.

One can easily stick one's pinky out while drinking tea and discuss the Final Solution to the jewish problem at the same time, can't they?

As for the Statue of Liberty, that's a thing. Given the nature of freedom in this country, someone has the freedom to mimic that thing and edit it as they see fit. What isn't conscionable and what is immoral is the denial by force of the freedom of those individuals to make their statement using a beloved historical icon.

Its the Statue of LIBERTY. It's symbolic of freedom, and while the giant green lady can continue to stand on her lonely island, she'll no longer have purpose if freedom is destroyed in her name.

[Athena]

But good manners and morality have little in common.

One can easily stick one's pinky out while drinking tea and discuss the Final Solution to the jewish problem at the same time, can't they?

As for the Statue of Liberty, that's a thing.Â*Â*Given the nature of freedom in this country, someone has the freedom to mimic that thing and edit it as they see fit.Â*Â*What isn't conscionable and what is immoral is the denial by force of the freedom of those individuals to make their statement using a beloved historical icon.

Its the Statue of LIBERTY.Â*Â*It's symbolic of freedom, and while the giant green lady can continue to stand on her lonely island, she'll no longer have purpose if freedom is destroyed in her name.


Thank you for continuing the discussion.

The word "moral" orginated as a Greek word meaning to know the law and good manners.Â*Â*To know the law, meant to know universal law, or what we call today God's law, only they didn't use myth to establish authority over God's laws.Â*Â*No one had authority over God's laws.Â*Â*Anyone could discover God's laws and people came to an understanding of universal law (God's law) by debating as we are doing.Â*Â*

Good manners are essential to morals and being in harmony with the law, and far more important to democracy than anyone understands.
We use to read our children moral stories, such as "The Little Red Hen", "The Fox and Grapes",Â*Â*"The Little Engine that Could".Â*Â*At the end of the story we would ask, "what is the moral of that story?" The answer is cause and effect.Â*Â*Good manners manifest good relationships, and bad manners manifest bad relationships.Â*Â*The moral is good manners are in harmony with universal law, and bad manners cause trouble.Â*Â*To manifest heaven on earth, we must be in harmony with universal law.

When we allow Christianity to define everything for us, we do not have the understanding that is essential to democracy.Â*Â*This is one of the worst problems with the religions coming from the God of Arabham.Â*Â*We so seriously misunderstand everything essential to democracy- rule by reason.

My first words about Christians Christianizing the Statue of Liberty, was this could be a good thing if they accepted her.Â*Â*Christians strongly protested against this pagan goddess.Â*Â*However, it is a bad thing if they distort the meaning of this symbol, and the Statue of Liberty is far more that just 'a thing'.Â*Â*Have you heard a picture is worth a thousand words.Â*Â* The Statue of Liberty holds a book for literacy and a torch for enlightenment, that is the result of being literate, and expanding one's consciousness and conscience.Â*Â* Replacing the torch with a cross, is a distortion of the meaning of the symbol.Â*Â*No one becomes very enlightened studying one holy book, and this is not the best way to know truth.Â*Â*Niether the bible nor the church should be authority over use, but inidividual enlightenment leads to individual, internalized authority, and liberty with no authority above us.Â*Â*Replacing the torch with a cross is a serious distortion of the meaning of this symbol.Â*Â*