Interesting thought on Christ

[moses2792796]

"Was there not an inconceivable loss of knowledge at Bethlehem?
Christ's abasement, His subjecting Himself to the laws of Human birth
and growth and to the lowliness of fallen human nature...
Did the Son remain the
transcendent Logos,
is there not a radical and fatal dicontinuity between
the consciousness
of the transcendent Logos and the secular Jesus?"

Deathspell Omega - Kenose part 1

I haven't made up my mind about this yet, I'm interested to hear other's thoughts, particularly those with knowledge of the scripture.

[jafar00]

That was a load of nonsense. I didn't understand a word.

[BoogyMan]

"Was there not an inconceivable loss of knowledge at Bethlehem?
Christ's abasement, His subjecting Himself to the laws of Human birth
and growth and to the lowliness of fallen human nature...
Did the Son remain the
transcendent Logos,
is there not a radical and fatal dicontinuity between
the consciousness
of the transcendent Logos and the secular Jesus?"

Deathspell Omega - Kenose part 1

I haven't made up my mind about this yet, I'm interested to hear other's thoughts, particularly those with knowledge of the scripture.


Sorry Moses, this is but another case of man applying his desire to make Christ something other than what He was. "Secular Jesus?" What secularism was there is His becoming flesh that He might sacrifice Himself for man? The premise is entirely flawed.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But *Jesus Christ*, is a *Jewish Human*.
2. And is *Gawd* at the very same time.
3. The lowering of himself into a secular society to reveal himself was in itself *The First Miracle*, done in compassion.
4. For as it were there was no intermediary between Gawd, himself, and man, who Gawd must needs be judge, at some point, otherwise, everyone ends up in heaven, including mass murderers.
5. So Gawd came to Earth in the form of a Jew, promised to the Jews a redeemer, with all those *Biblical Stories*, where the one who was betrayed, ended up being the *Savior* of those who betrayed him.
6. The *Biblical Stories* were effected by Gawd, for He knew in advance that He Himself; would come to Earth doing the same thing.
7. *Being The Redeemer*.
8. For all of mankind, *Once and for All*, at least those who would seek him out, and not deny him in times of; *The Test*.
9. For all followers of *Jesus*, get tested, and tested by fire, and He will watch, *The Follower* very watchfully; as they go through; *The Test*.
10. For no one who ever found for himself; *The Righteousness Gift Of Salvation*, didn't have to go through; *The Testing*.
11. I can tell you truthfully, if you do not receive the; *Testing*, then you are unfortunately a bastardized son, and have not yet received: *The Gift*.
12. If this is the case, keep; * Seeking Jesus *.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[jafar00]

Sorry bout that,

1. But *Jesus Christ*, is a *Jewish Human*.
2. And is *Gawd* at the very same time.
3. The lowering of himself into a secular society to reveal himself was in itself *The First Miracle*, done in compassion.
4. For as it were there was no intermediary between Gawd, himself, and man, who Gawd must needs be judge, at some point, otherwise, everyone ends up in heaven, including mass murderers.
5. So Gawd came to Earth in the form of a Jew, promised to the Jews a redeemer, with all those *Biblical Stories*, where the one who was betrayed, ended up being the *Savior* of those who betrayed him.
6. The *Biblical Stories* were effected by Gawd, for He knew in advance that He Himself; would come to Earth doing the same thing.
7. *Being The Redeemer*.
8. For all of mankind, *Once and for All*, at least those who would seek him out, and not deny him in times of; *The Test*.
9. For all followers of *Jesus*, get tested, and tested by fire, and He will watch, *The Follower* very watchfully; as they go through; *The Test*.
10. For no one who ever found for himself; *The Righteousness Gift Of Salvation*, didn't have to go through; *The Testing*.
11. I can tell you truthfully, if you do not receive the; *Testing*, then you are unfortunately a bastardized son, and have not yet received: *The Gift*.
12. If this is the case, keep; * Seeking Jesus *.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


1) So, you're a Jew now?
2) Now you are being ridiculous
3) God had to lower himself? Isn't God all knowing and all seeing? God revealed Himself by creation of us and all that surrounds us.
4) Yes, I agree God is the only worthy judge for us.
5) So God is a Jew now too?
6,7) huh?
8) Yes, our lives are a test of faith. Especially the bad times.
9) God is the Judge, not the Prophet Jesus(upon him peace). Those who worship the Prophet in place of God and ignore his message, are destined for hellfire.
10-11-12) ??

[April15]

Moses,
Relax there is no god. Life is good.

[jafar00]

Moses,
Relax there is no god. Life is good.


Can you prove there is no God? :dork:

[April15]

Moses,
Relax there is no god. Life is good.


Can you prove there is no God? :dork:
As soon as you produce it to questioning.

[jafar00]

You want me to produce God? You know I'm just a mere mortal don't you?
How about I just show you a little miracle by His permission instead? :D

[April15]

You want me to produce God? You know I'm just a mere mortal don't you?
How about I just show you a little miracle by His permission instead? :D
Miracles do not happen! Try again. There is no god and you cannot prove there is one! I want to ask questions of a god. If you can produce one.

[moses2792796]

The existence of God is not what's in question here. Boogyman and CWN, thanks for your replies, I have found them helpful, still need to think on this some more though.

@Boogyman, I'm not entirely sure what they meant by 'secular Jesus', the part that interested me most was the 'radical and fatal discontinuity of the conciousness'.

[BoogyMan]

@Boogyman, I'm not entirely sure what they meant by 'secular Jesus', the part that interested me most was the 'radical and fatal discontinuity of the conciousness'.


It is pretty obvious that the author of that piece is commenting with regard to the death of Christ, at least that is how I see it. It isn't scripture so I am not that concerned with spending time on it. :D

The whole "secular Jesus" thing threw me as it is completely discordant with the truth.

[moses2792796]

Yeah ok thanks for your help, this kinda threw me when I read it, made me think about Christ more than I had previously. The concept of God taking the form of a man has always been an uncomfortable one for me and this emphasised that. It's gonna take me a while to make up my mind properly about Christ in general, not in relation to this writing, I just found that particular thought interesting.

[jafar00]

You want me to produce God? You know I'm just a mere mortal don't you?
How about I just show you a little miracle by His permission instead? :D
Miracles do not happen! Try again. There is no god and you cannot prove there is one! I want to ask questions of a god. If you can produce one.


Well, give me another 6 months, and I'll produce a picture of the baby my wife is now making in her belly :)


Yeah ok thanks for your help, this kinda threw me when I read it, made me think about Christ more than I had previously. The concept of God taking the form of a man has always been an uncomfortable one for me and this emphasised that. It's gonna take me a while to make up my mind properly about Christ in general, not in relation to this writing, I just found that particular thought interesting.


Now that I look at it again,

Transcendent Logos = The Word with which Jesus(upon him peace) was created and that word was "Be".
By saying "Secular" Jesus I think he is alluding to the age old argument of the Trinity. How could the Divine "Word" become equated with a lowly Earthbound human? The so called "Secular Jesus".

Does any of his other writing question the Son of God thing too?

[moses2792796]

It's actually a band, those were song lyrics that I posted. They have an interesting concept, though it seems nonsensical most of the time. All their lyrics on the album Si Monumentum Requires Circumspice and everything they released after that deal with these sort of issues.

[JohnM81]

You want me to produce God? You know I'm just a mere mortal don't you?
How about I just show you a little miracle by His permission instead? :D
Miracles do not happen! Try again. There is no god and you cannot prove there is one! I want to ask questions of a god. If you can produce one.


Faulty logic. The inability to prove Gods existance doesn't disprove his being either.

I thought secularists were supposed to be well versed in logic...

[April15]

A new life is not a miracle. Show me a god and then I may even begin to doubt there is none. Words in a book written by humans to ease the drudgery of indentured servitude and slavery is not proof of god only mind control for profit.

[jafar00]

A new life is not a miracle. Show me a god and then I may even begin to doubt there is none. Words in a book written by humans to ease the drudgery of indentured servitude and slavery is not proof of god only mind control for profit.


Do tell, where is the mind control for profit in the Qur'aan?

[manyfeathers]

"Was there not an inconceivable loss of knowledge at Bethlehem?
Christ's abasement, His subjecting Himself to the laws of Human birth
and growth and to the lowliness of fallen human nature...
Did the Son remain the
transcendent Logos,
is there not a radical and fatal dicontinuity between
the consciousness
of the transcendent Logos and the secular Jesus?"

Deathspell Omega - Kenose part 1

I haven't made up my mind about this yet, I'm interested to hear other's thoughts, particularly those with knowledge of the scripture.



Loss of wisdom at Bethlehem? How?

In the reference of 'lowly human birth' - I suspect the early church has a hand in this, who was even against marriage because it meant there would be that filthy pro-creation going on. :evil:

I'm not familiar with this scripture - where and when did it originate?

Not that anything is likely to change my mind about the entire circumstances of the life of Jesus Christ and his work. Beautiful of course, but without much of the silly bs such as - immaculate conception. :peace:

[April15]

A new life is not a miracle. Show me a god and then I may even begin to doubt there is none. Words in a book written by humans to ease the drudgery of indentured servitude and slavery is not proof of god only mind control for profit.


Do tell, where is the mind control for profit in the Qur'aan?
If it is your book of fiction then you should be able to see it. If not then you are one of the controlled.

[jafar00]

Beautiful of course, but without much of the silly bs such as - immaculate conception. :peace:


God was powerful enough to create the Universe we live in and other Universes too. What's to say He isn't powerful enough to say to Jesus(upon him peace) "Be" and he just comes into existence? Is it enough to look at the birth of Jesus(upon him peace) as a Divine Creation, rather than Immaculate Conception?

[moses2792796]

"Was there not an inconceivable loss of knowledge at Bethlehem?
Christ's abasement, His subjecting Himself to the laws of Human birth
and growth and to the lowliness of fallen human nature...
Did the Son remain the
transcendent Logos,
is there not a radical and fatal dicontinuity between
the consciousness
of the transcendent Logos and the secular Jesus?"

Deathspell Omega - Kenose part 1

I haven't made up my mind about this yet, I'm interested to hear other's thoughts, particularly those with knowledge of the scripture.



Loss of wisdom at Bethlehem? How?



By restricting himself to form God lost his transcendence? I think that is the meaning of the above statement. It is the same reason why I don't beleive any one religion can be 'the right one'.

[jafar00]

A new life is not a miracle. Show me a god and then I may even begin to doubt there is none. Words in a book written by humans to ease the drudgery of indentured servitude and slavery is not proof of god only mind control for profit.


Do tell, where is the mind control for profit in the Qur'aan?
If it is your book of fiction then you should be able to see it. If not then you are one of the controlled.


It's not a book of fiction, but anyway, since you are so convinced the book is for mind control and profit, and you can see it but I can't, please point it out to me.

[moses2792796]

Please stop with the anti-religious BS. It's not what this thread is for, if you want to have this debate take it somewhere else and I will happily join in.

[David Hume]

I'm not anti-religion, but I am anti-reason. And it is unreasonable to assume that Jesus even lived, let alone performed even one single miracle as described in the gospels. Mythical mentions of Christ figures (all of which preceded your Jesus) are numerous throughout the ancient world. Adonis, Attis, Osiris, Dionysus, Orpheus, Mithra, Tarnmuz, Heracles, Hermes, and Aleyin are but a few from which the Jesus myth was stolen. Iasus, Iasion, Jason, Jesu, Yeshua, or Jeud (even your savior's name is stolen!) are all applied to the "only-begotten son" of the god-king Isra-El, who was "dressed in royal robes" and sacrificed by his heavenly father (Sir James G. Frazer in "The Golden Bough").

Most of the savior Gods were identified with the edible flesh and blood of the earth, meaning the bread & wine harvested, consumed, and resurrected with the next planting. Osiris, Adonis, and Mithra were all eaten in the form of communion bread, declared to be the god's flesh, which the worshipper thus made a part of his own flesh in order to share the god's resurrection. Adonis was miraculously born of a temple maiden in (GET THIS!) Bethlehem, wich translates as "the House of Bread." He was called the Bread God, BTW. ;) The sacrificed god Dionysus, another son of the Heavenly Father, first performed Jesus' miracle of turning water into wine at the temples in Sidon and other places, representing the rain of heaven fructifying the wine. In Alexandria, the "miracle" was even demonstrated literally by means of an ingenious system of siphons invented by an engineer named Heron, in order to enhance the awe of the faithful.

I could go on ad nauseum about the plagiarisms of the birth story, the plagiarisms of the crucifixion story, and the plagiarisms of the resurrection story, but as you might guess, it's probably only masturbatory to do so. It'd serve no real purpose in that the "faithful" are so frightened by the boogeymen in their collective closets that they won't even venture out from under the blankies to throw on the light of reason. For if they were to do so, the myths their forebears constructed would crumble like a dike in New Orleans after a bad thunderstorm.

Really, enough of this silliness. Honestly, the only interesting thoughts of which I can conceive relative to the so-called Jesus are two: 1) the brazeness of those who originally stole & repackaged this lie as some sort of mysterious truth, and 2) the naivity of those who continue to act as if any of this is real and allow it to guide not only their own lives but also the domestic & foreign policies of our own secular nation.

BASTA!

[BoogyMan]

Religious discussion will continue in the religion forum whether you approve or not David. You feel religion is silly, others do not.

You have a right to your belief system and so do those of us who believe in Christ. Have a nice day.

[David Hume]

Fine, but expect me to chime in to point out the inconsistencies & the absurdities.

Have a nice day yourself! :)

PS: After all I just wrote, how can you can continue to believe in Christ? I've pulled back the curtain of ignorance & shown you the man sitting back there is not the mighty Oz but just a mere fallible mortal. Have you never looked at the overwhelming prooof AGAINST the existence of Christ? Not one shred of proof in his favor, but literally thousands of tracts that more than suggest otherwise. Logic & reason would lead a sane person to conclude that this is idiocy.

[BoogyMan]

David, you have shown your own predilection towards disbelief and a penchant for ridiculing those of faith. Your input to these discussions is always welcome. You will, however, certainly not shake my faith.

[manyfeathers]

Fine, but expect me to chime in to point out the inconsistencies & the absurdities.

Have a nice day yourself! :)

PS: After all I just wrote, how can you can continue to believe in Christ? I've pulled back the curtain of ignorance & shown you the man sitting back there is not the mighty Oz but just a mere fallible mortal. Have you never looked at the overwhelming prooof AGAINST the existence of Christ? Not one shred of proof in his favor, but literally thousands of tracts that more than suggest otherwise. Logic & reason would lead a sane person to conclude that this is idiocy.


Please continue to chime! I also have read many of the things you referred to. But to 'God fearing Christians' - it's like when a little kid learns that Santa Claus is not really real, anymore.


David, you have shown your own predilection towards disbelief and a penchant for ridiculing those of faith. Your input to these discussions is always welcome. You will, however, certainly not shake my faith.


I didn't notice any ridicule - just facts. God is so much more than the vengeful god of Christianity. The God Force is expansive, if it is anything - not the penurious God as represented by the Church.

Jafaar(upon him intelligence) - just when did you gain knowledge of these 'other universes' of which you speak?
powerful enough to create the Universe we live in and other Universes too

[Deadshot]

You will, however, certainly not shake my faith.


No amount of logic will ever shake a man of faith. God does not operate under the aupices of logic that man can comprehend.

[Truth_and_Power]

The question is, then, is it coincidence that the story of jesus in the bible so closely mirrors grecoroman myths? Since you guys believe in the bible, all of this stuff from his birthday on the winter solstice to god-son myths noted above is just coincidence?

Doesn't it seem more likely that early christians integrated grecoroman myths into their new mythology to make it easier to accept and adopt for their target audience?

[AnnEsthesia]

Jesus has a strong correlation to Mythras.

[moses2792796]

You will, however, certainly not shake my faith.


No amount of logic will ever shake a man of faith. God does not operate under the aupices of logic that man can comprehend.


:thumbsup: atheists need to recognise that logic is not the pinnacle of knowledge

[AnnEsthesia]

And religious folk need to realize that just because they believe, it does not mean they are right. ;)

[jafar00]

Jafaar(upon him intelligence) - just when did you gain knowledge of these 'other universes' of which you speak?
powerful enough to create the Universe we live in and other Universes too


The first place it is alluded to is in the 1st Surah of the Qur'aan. :)

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. Qur'aan 1:2