6 million jewis' death compare Christ's suffer on cross is NOTHING!

[madbetcha2]

The jewis,traitor to Christ,the race who murder God's Holy Son,the worst sinner,the punish from Almighty Lord through Adolf Hitler's hand is justice!During the whole medieval,how much innocent christian women be sell to the satanic islamic barbarious' Brothel by you?Do you guilty,when you jewis colludes with the morres make the christian spanish fall into pagan's hand?Do you feel crime malice,when you jewis use ur bloody money to make so much people homeless and starves to death?And you not ashamed yourself when you summer the first world war,but also play communist risk game in each nation?You are the pulmonary tuberculosis to the Church,the pest to christian world.

[moses2792796]

:madlaugh: aaahahahahaha, awsome +1 rep.

[PatrickHenry]

Damn! Don't be so cynical, moses...

madbetcha, I wish you would take the name of Christ out of your custom title. I am thinking He's not too pleased with you.

See, He said no one took His life, but rather, He laid it down.
John 10:17-18 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

So saying the Jews killed Him is incorrect and contrary to Scripture. The actual killers were Roman soldiers, following orders.

And your agenda here is rendering you totally outcast. Can't you feel the rejection?

Hatred of Jews shows a shriveled soul, brother. You need to repent.

[jafar00]

Even the Qur'aan says they didn't kill him.

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jesus) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:157-158)

And what was wrong with Islamic Rule of Spain? During that time, Spain prospered while the rest of Europe wallowed in the dark ages. Spanish Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived together in peace and worked together in an atmosphere of tolerance and achieved so much.
Then the Christians from abroad came and took over Spain. What was the result of that? The Crusades and an explosion of intolerance and death at the hands of an evil Pope.

[BoogyMan]

See, He said no one took His life, but rather, He laid it down.
John 10:17-18 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

So saying the Jews killed Him is incorrect and contrary to Scripture. The actual killers were Roman soldiers, following orders.

And your agenda here is rendering you totally outcast. Can't you feel the rejection?

Hatred of Jews shows a shriveled soul, brother. You need to repent.


The Jews didn't actually do the killing, PH, but they were not honest in delivering him up to the government either. They preferred to have a murderer freed rather than Christ and they called for his crucifixion.

1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
2 And Pilate asked him, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answering said unto him, Thou sayest it.
3 And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.
4 And Pilate asked him again, saying, Answerest thou nothing? behold how many things they witness against thee.
5 But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marvelled.
6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.
7 And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.
8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.
9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

I am in no way agreeing with MB's posted hatred for the Jews, just making sure that the full idea has been presented.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But to Muslims Christ never went to the Cross, and suffered for sin for the *World*.
2. Being raised up he draws all heaven bound souls redeeming them from the snake, who was raised up in the dessert.
3. Those who look to Christ find eternal life.
4. Unless you accept this reality, you shall not escape this world for *Paradise*.
5. This *Faith* is pure and real, sometimes folks ears can not hear, and it passes them by, like *The Lord* did in parts of Samaria.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[AnnEsthesia]

So Muslims are evil because they are not Christians?

[moses2792796]

@chesswarsnow

mmmm dessert *licks lips*

[ttriber]

The jewis,traitor to Christ,the race who murder God's Holy Son,the worst sinner,the punish from Almighty Lord through Adolf Hitler's hand is justice!During the whole medieval,how much innocent christian women be sell to the satanic islamic barbarious' Brothel by you?Do you guilty,when you jewis colludes with the morres make the christian spanish fall into pagan's hand?Do you feel crime malice,when you jewis use ur bloody money to make so much people homeless and starves to death?And you not ashamed yourself when you summer the first world war,but also play communist risk game in each nation?You are the pulmonary tuberculosis to the Church,the pest to christian world.


What in the Hell are you talking about?:help: :madlaugh::madlaugh:

[AnnEsthesia]

You know, I really find the title of this thread offensive. Talk about a sick idea. Yes, genocide is nothing. *rolls eyes*

[Truth_and_Power]

We OWN christ. He's ours, and you can't have him!

Sincerely,

Pope John 10% Somethingorother XXIV



T&P, I have searched high and low to see where Chess made that post. Please do not post your opinions and put other members name on the quote.

[bobbylien]

Heck yeah!!! You guys sure told him! Now he will change his ways and stop calling for genocide! Why don't you guys go down to the local Psych ward and debate politics while you're at it.

[madbetcha2]

Even the Qur'aan says they didn't kill him.

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jesus) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:157-158)

And what was wrong with Islamic Rule of Spain? During that time, Spain prospered while the rest of Europe wallowed in the dark ages. Spanish Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived together in peace and worked together in an atmosphere of tolerance and achieved so much.
Then the Christians from abroad came and took over Spain. What was the result of that? The Crusades and an explosion of intolerance and death at the hands of an evil Pope.

Satanic islamic's period in spain is the evilest history for europe,the high tax to christian,evil preach of pagancy qaran,many many inncent people being misguide or force to convert the satan allah,there is NO good or merit in islamic spain.Lucky,the Dominic order clean and pure it,afterall.

[Buck Laser]

Satanic islamic's period in spain is the evilest history for europe,the high tax to christian,evil preach of pagancy qaran,many many inncent people being misguide or force to convert the satan allah,there is NO good or merit in islamic spain.Lucky,the Dominic order clean and pure it,afterall.

Interesting take you have on that, mad. The consensus among most historians is that the Spanish Inquisition that followed the expulsion of the Muslims and Jews in the fifteenth century was probably the most shameful episode in Christendom's history.

Does it serve any purpose at all for you to come here and advocate these ultramontane views?

[jafar00]

Even the Qur'aan says they didn't kill him.

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jesus) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Qur'aan 4:157-158)

And what was wrong with Islamic Rule of Spain? During that time, Spain prospered while the rest of Europe wallowed in the dark ages. Spanish Christians, Jews and Muslims all lived together in peace and worked together in an atmosphere of tolerance and achieved so much.
Then the Christians from abroad came and took over Spain. What was the result of that? The Crusades and an explosion of intolerance and death at the hands of an evil Pope.

Satanic islamic's period in spain is the evilest history for europe,the high tax to christian,evil preach of pagancy qaran,many many inncent people being misguide or force to convert the satan allah,there is NO good or merit in islamic spain.Lucky,the Dominic order clean and pure it,afterall.


Let's see now. Islamic Spain is most remembered for some beautiful architecture, amazing advances in Medicine, the invention of the predecessor of the modern guitar, advances in astronomy, religious tolerance as Muslim, Christian and Jew worked side by side in peace, advances in agriculture that turned barren tracts of Spain into veritable gardens, advances in Botany, and many other achievements.
The Christian Inquisition and crusades are most noted for the forced conversion of Muslims and Jews and the deaths of millions who didn't. Which is the golden period in Spain's history and which is the evil, dark period? History proves you wrong madbetcha.

[Josepha]

mad - I don't know if you are trying a parody, or you truly believe this. Either way, you're posts are sorta pathetic. There is no original thought, or research, just some centuries old stale assertions. It's kinda like trying to start a debate over whether the world is flat, how to deal with inscutable orientals. :drool:

I wish I could get upset enough to argue with you, but if you truly believe this stuff - there is no point in even trying to reach you.:sadly:

[Uncle]

Damn! Don't be so cynical, moses...

madbetcha, I wish you would take the name of Christ out of your custom title. I am thinking He's not too pleased with you.

See, He said no one took His life, but rather, He laid it down.
John 10:17-18 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I might take it again.
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down from Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment from My Father.

So saying the Jews killed Him is incorrect and contrary to Scripture. The actual killers were Roman soldiers, following orders.

And your agenda here is rendering you totally outcast. Can't you feel the rejection?

Hatred of Jews shows a shriveled soul, brother. You need to repent.

And what did Jesus the Christ say of the jews? Did He not say these things? And did not the jews mock and scorn Him and say that He had the devil in Him? Were Jesus and the jews friends? Of course not. He said that they were of their father the devil and that is why they could not hear His words when He spoke to them.

Jhn 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.


Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Jhn 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.


Jhn 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.


Jhn 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


Jhn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.


Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Jhn 8:45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.


Jhn 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?


Jhn 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.


Jhn 8:48 ¶ Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?


Jhn 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


Jhn 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.


Jhn 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.


Jhn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?


Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.


Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?


Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Throughout the entire New Testament Jesus condemned the jews and their acts. And if He saw fit to condemn them, and Mad condemns them, and you support them, then who should repent?

Even in Revelations jews are condemned. But they are different jews then the ones of the N.T. They are todays zionist jews. zionist jews are not of the seed of Abraham. They are a mixed race of people who originated from Khazar and took up Babylonian Talmudic judaism as a religion.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

And yes, nobody could take Jesus' life without His consent. However, Jesus did know who would deliver Him to the jews, (Judas) and He knew the intent of the jews was to have Him killed. They did not know that they didn't have the power to have Him killed. But He did and He went willingly to His crucifixion to fulfill that which was preordained.

By intent the jews did take Jesus to be slaughtered. They demanded His death and thought they were instrumental in it.

Here is a little something for you. It shows how the jews feel about the Jesus you claim to represent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM&eurl=

[PatrickHenry]

Uncle, it is difficult to even debate you, since I find your views so repugnant. But in the interest of intellectual spiritual endeavor, I offer this:

Jesus was himself a Jew. A descendant of David and an adherent to the faith taught to Him by the rabbis of His day. He was certainly not antiJewish. His disciples were Jews. In fact, it is evident from scripture that the Gentiles were a sort of foster children to Him. See Mark 7:25-28... but He loves us anyway, since we have been given to Him by his Father and the Father's love extends toward all humanity.

Listen, He came for the Jews first and also for the Gentiles. 1Corinthians 1:24-25 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.

Some people of His time, in a region inhabited by Jews, did mock Him and clamor for His death. No mistake about that. But their agenda was not a racist one. He was a Jew, too. Their agenda was driven by a false religious system, one that prevented people from approaching God while pretending to represent Him. They sought to preserve the system that profited them, and could not imagine that God would actually do as He had said, send a Redeemer to rescue humanity.

Jesus accusations were not toward the Jews, either in their ethnicity (which you obviously despise) or in their religious faith, which He fulfilled. It was rather towards the falsity of the man-created religious system that was fleecing the multitude that He came for.

See the Woes
Matthew 23:13-14 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as a pretense. Therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation. And further in Matthew chapter 23, many more accusations of the "scribes and pharisees" the keepers of the religious order of Jesus day.

You say He was condemning the "jews." But it is clear that the word Jews is a reference to the leaders of the Jews, not their common folk who were the object of His love and healing. Indeed, His sacrifice of His own life to end the religious system shows a love for them, and us Gentiles.

As to your final reference to the video of Jews who hate Jesus, it obvious to me that those boys are drunk. You can see the bottle. But if some Jews or even many Jews hate Him, the vital friendship with God available through Him is prophesied in THEIR scripture. And many people hate God...there are plenty of them on this forum...

It wasn't the Jews who killed Him. In a greater sense, it wasn't even the Romans, who nailed Him to the cross. It was for you and me that He died...

[David Hume]

The jewis,traitor to Christ,the race who murder God's Holy Son,the worst sinner,the punish from Almighty Lord through Adolf Hitler's hand is justice!During the whole medieval,how much innocent christian women be sell to the satanic islamic barbarious' Brothel by you?Do you guilty,when you jewis colludes with the morres make the christian spanish fall into pagan's hand?Do you feel crime malice,when you jewis use ur bloody money to make so much people homeless and starves to death?And you not ashamed yourself when you summer the first world war,but also play communist risk game in each nation?You are the pulmonary tuberculosis to the Church,the pest to christian world.


This HAS to be an attempt at satire. I applaud you for you efforts. :clapper: I say by your -10 rep that you're very misunderstood. I just want you to know that some of us here "get" the point you are attempting to make. ;)

[JohnM81]

Throughout the entire New Testament Jesus condemned the jews and their acts. And if He saw fit to condemn them, and Mad condemns them, and you support them, then who should repent?

Even in Revelations jews are condemned. But they are different jews then the ones of the N.T. They are todays zionist jews. zionist jews are not of the seed of Abraham. They are a mixed race of people who originated from Khazar and took up Babylonian Talmudic judaism as a religion.



The odd thing is you claim that the NT "condemns" those of jewish heritage and yet none of the verses you put up there actually show that. Christ doesn't want jews condemned he wants to bring them to the father.

After all during his death he said:
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

How does Jesus think of the jews? This provides additional prespective:
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Despite knowing he was going to be crucified he still wanted to bring Israel to him, even if they weren't willing. Now it is true, there many times where jews disobey God and sin. The bible tells this because it happened. But describing where some jews have gone wrong doesn't equal condemnation of jews.

Saying the NT condemns jews is pure fiction.

[Deadshot]

Jesus was a Jew. Jesus would never compare his suffering to anyone else's because he is the son of God. Jesus would not want to see anyone suffer and die like they did in the Holocaust.

End of story.

[mammalicious]

To state the points again...Jesus was a Jew. It was the Ruling class of the Jews(orthodox), who were threatened by the popularity of Jesus(revolutionary) that conspired against Him, not the ''jews'' in general. And it is primarily the Gospel of John that oozes anti-semitism.

HOWEVER...wasn't it PROPHECY that what happened was SUPPOSED to happen? How do you blame those that had to play an integral part in the story/events??

As for the supposed constant villification of Jews, many scholars subscribe to the notion that this was done to distance the new religion of Christianity from the old...to clarify that they were, in fact, two different belief systems.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/themovement.html

[JohnM81]

...to clarify that they were, in fact, two different belief systems.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/themovement.html



But in fact they aren't two different belief systems. One is a continuation of the other.


BTW, PBS doesn't know jack about the dynamics between christianity and judism. The above comment proves it.

[Uncle]

To JohnM81: Condemn - to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.


Uncle, it is difficult to even debate you, since I find your views so repugnant. But in the interest of intellectual spiritual endeavor, I offer this (Thank you for your kindness):

Jesus was himself a Jew. A descendant of David and an adherent to the faith taught to Him by the rabbis of His day. He was certainly not antiJewish. His disciples were Jews. I'll disprove all the above in this paragraph in my next post. There is a reason I am holding it till then. In fact, it is evident from scripture that the Gentiles were a sort of foster children to Him. See Mark 7:25-28... Try Mark 7:1-9... but He loves us anyway, since we have been given to Him by his Father and the Father's love extends toward all humanity.

Listen, He came for the Jews first and also for the Gentiles. 1Corinthians 1:24-25 But to them, the called-out ones, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and the weak thing of God is stronger than men.

Some people of His time, in a region inhabited by Jews, did mock Him and clamor for His death. No mistake about that. But their agenda was not a racist one. He was a Jew, too. "Jesus was a jew" always makes me wonder where people who proclaim that got their "Christian" education. Their agenda was driven by a false religious system, one that prevented people from approaching God while pretending to represent Him. They sought to preserve the system that profited them, and could not imagine that God would actually do as He had said, send a Redeemer to rescue humanity.

Jesus accusations were not toward the Jews, either in their ethnicity (which you obviously despise) or in their religious faith, which He fulfilled. It was rather towards the falsity of the man-created religious system that was fleecing the multitude that He came for.

See the Woes
Matthew 23:13-14 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of Heaven against men. For you neither go in, nor do you allow those entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and pray at length as a pretense. Therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation. And further in Matthew chapter 23, many more accusations of the "scribes and pharisees" the keepers of the religious order of Jesus day. The Scribes were basically lawyers and accountants (among other things, copyist, for instance), (professional men), and the Pharisees were a "jewish" religious sect and not just leaders of a sect. Just so you will know.

You say He was condemning the "jews." But it is clear that the word Jews is a reference to the leaders of the Jews, not their common folk who were the object of His love and healing. Sorry my dear adversary, but you are wrong. There were 3 "jewish" religious sects during Jesus' time. They were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes. And if it were true that Jesus was condemning the leaders for their beliefs then it simply follows that He was condemning their followers also for they believed as their leaders. Indeed, His sacrifice of His own life to end the religious system shows a love for them, and us Gentiles.

As to your final reference to the video of Jews who hate Jesus, it obvious to me that those boys are drunk. Does that make his heart any different in his hatred for Jesus? He is your average judaic. You can see the bottle. But if some Jews or even many Jews hate Him, the vital friendship with God available through Him is prophesied in THEIR scripture. And many people hate God...there are plenty of them on this forum...

It wasn't the Jews who killed Him. In a greater sense, it wasn't even the Romans, who nailed Him to the cross. It was for you and me that He died...Then why are you killing Him by misrepresenting who He was and is?


To Patrick, JohnM81, mammalicious, and Deadshot: You have each said that "Jesus was a jew". Normally I would show you otherwise, (I'm a nice guy like that). But since the four of you hold the popular belief that "Jesus was a jew" and are obviously convinced that that is true then I am asking you to convince me that "Jesus was a jew" using nothing but scripture. You wont and you can't because a lie cannot be proved as a fact. After you each fail, I will show you how and why Jesus was not a jew. I'm a nice guy like that too.

[JohnM81]

To JohnM81: Condemn - to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.


So? Did Christ condem "some" jews? Yes, but not because they were jews, only because of what some of them did. They were condemned based off of their own actions not their race or nationality. By the same token Christ spoke highly of some jews and even made them ...gasp... his apostles.

But the claim that the NT condemns jews implies all jews and this is not the case. The NT condemns any and all peoples who reject the self sacrifice of Christ. Here is the point, there is no hatred implicit for jews in the NT. There is judgement against all implicit in the NT and that is to all races not to just jews.

You asked a question:
"...am asking you to convince me that "Jesus was a jew" using nothing but scripture."

Im quite confused by this. First of all to ask me to "convince" you is as unattainable as you want it to be. I can produce a mountain of evidence and still be rejected because you choose to believe what you want to believe. So I am sorry to repsond to you that no, I will not try to convince you that Jesus was a jew. I will however present a case of why I think Jesus is a jew based just of scripture.

And now the second bit of clerical work that must be done before I can begin. Define a jew.

I will define a jew as:

1. A person who is from a Jewish family line (from Abraham).

I hope that is acceptable to you because if we can't agree on that point, then everything else I write is for not.

1. Is Jesus from a jewish family line?

Mat 1:1 ¶ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 ¶ And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

But Jesus wasn't actually by blood related to Joseph right? Well lets take a further look at scripture.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

So here is scripture cutting to the point. Christ is the blood line from David. Easy enough to claim being his mother whom 100% (supposedly) of his genetic material came from is a jew from the house of david. And unless you want to dispute the linage of david then by the very scripture you asked us to use we see that Jesus is a jew.

[JohnM81]

To JohnM81: Condemn - to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of; censure.


So? Did Christ condem "some" jews? Yes, but not because they were jews, only because of what some of them did. They were condemned based off of their own actions not their race or nationality. By the same token Christ spoke highly of some jews and even made them ...gasp... his apostles.

But the claim that the NT condemns jews implies all jews and this is not the case. The NT condemns any and all peoples who reject the self sacrifice of Christ. Here is the point, there is no hatred implicit for jews in the NT. There is judgement against all implicit in the NT and that is to all races not to just jews.

You asked a question:
"...am asking you to convince me that "Jesus was a jew" using nothing but scripture."

Im quite confused by this. First of all to ask me to "convince" you is as unattainable as you want it to be. I can produce a mountain of evidence and still be rejected because you choose to believe what you want to believe. So I am sorry to repsond to you that no, I will not try to convince you that Jesus was a jew. I will however present a case of why I think Jesus is a jew based just of scripture.

And now the second bit of clerical work that must be done before I can begin. Define a jew.

I will define a jew as:

1. A person who is from a Jewish family line (from Abraham).

I hope that is acceptable to you because if we can't agree on that point, then everything else I write is for not.

1. Is Jesus from a jewish family line?

Mat 1:1 ¶ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 ¶ And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

But Jesus wasn't actually by blood related to Joseph right? Well lets take a further look at scripture.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

So here is scripture cutting to the point. Christ is the blood line from David. Easy enough to claim being his mother whom 100% (supposedly) of his genetic material came from is a jew from the house of david. And unless you want to dispute the linage of david then by the very scripture you asked us to use we see that Jesus is a jew.

[madbetcha2]

To state the points again...Jesus was a Jew. It was the Ruling class of the Jews(orthodox), who were threatened by the popularity of Jesus(revolutionary) that conspired against Him, not the ''jews'' in general. And it is primarily the Gospel of John that oozes anti-semitism.

HOWEVER...wasn't it PROPHECY that what happened was SUPPOSED to happen? How do you blame those that had to play an integral part in the story/events??

As for the supposed constant villification of Jews, many scholars subscribe to the notion that this was done to distance the new religion of Christianity from the old...to clarify that they were, in fact, two different belief systems.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/themovement.html


Wrong,Christ - our Savior our Lord our God,His body is jew,BUT!Only the Holy Spirit with Him is the God's prove.Only His Holy Spirit and Almighty Lord's word are the prove that He is God.

[jafar00]

Wrong,Christ - our Savior our Lord our God,His body is jew,BUT!Only the Holy Spirit with Him is the God's prove.Only His Holy Spirit and Almighty Lord's word are the prove that He is God.


Nah. Jesus(upon him peace) is a Muslim. :thumbsup:

The Definition of the word "Muslim" is "One who submits to God". He submitted himself to God and followed the Divine will of God to spread the message.

Therefore, his submission to God = Muslim.

To suggest the Holy Prophet Jesus(upon him peace) was indeed God in human form is ridiculous and a blasphemy.
In any case, does it make any sense that he talked to God and about God in the third person all the time, yet you still worship him as God incarnate. It's just weird. Something I could never understand about Christianity even before I became a Muslim.

[mammalicious]

...to clarify that they were, in fact, two different belief systems.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/themovement.html




But in fact they aren't two different belief systems. One is a continuation of the other.


BTW, PBS doesn't know jack about the dynamics between christianity and judism. The above comment proves it.


No, they are completely different. Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah. Christianity holds that if Christ is not accepted as one's Lord and Savior, then they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Ask a Jew if they think Christianity is a ''continuation''...for them there IS NO continuation. The distinction in what it takes to enter Heaven makes them different.

[Deadshot]

To Patrick, JohnM81, mammalicious, and Deadshot: You have each said that "Jesus was a jew". Normally I would show you otherwise, (I'm a nice guy like that). But since the four of you hold the popular belief that "Jesus was a jew" and are obviously convinced that that is true then I am asking you to convince me that "Jesus was a jew" using nothing but scripture. You wont and you can't because a lie cannot be proved as a fact. After you each fail, I will show you how and why Jesus was not a jew. I'm a nice guy like that too.


Mary, daughter of Ann was a Jew as was her husband Joseph. They were both traveling to fulfill the order from the Romans for Jews to be counted. Hence the reason that they couldn't get a room and had to stay in a stable.

So if your mama was a Jew, and since your "jewiness" is decided by your MOTHERS heritage, J.C. was a jew.

[mammalicious]

To Patrick, JohnM81, mammalicious, and Deadshot: You have each said that "Jesus was a jew". Normally I would show you otherwise, (I'm a nice guy like that). But since the four of you hold the popular belief that "Jesus was a jew" and are obviously convinced that that is true then I am asking you to convince me that "Jesus was a jew" using nothing but scripture. You wont and you can't because a lie cannot be proved as a fact. After you each fail, I will show you how and why Jesus was not a jew. I'm a nice guy like that too.


Jesus was indeed a Jew...how YOU think otherwise is astonishing. Look at Matthew Chapter ONE lists the ''ancestors of Jesus.'' Jesus worshipped as a young boy in the TEMPLE (Luke 2:41) during Passover....his followers referred to Him as ''Rabbi.'' Jesus was circumcised (Luke 2: 21) was presented in the temple according to the Laws of Moses (Luke 2:22). He celebrated the Passover feast before His death. Jesus' mother was a Jew, He was born and lived in the land of Israel..Jesus was flesh...how does that make Him anything OTHER than a Jew? How do you read scripture and come away with Jesus being something other than a practicing Jew?

[JohnM81]

...to clarify that they were, in fact, two different belief systems.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/themovement.html




But in fact they aren't two different belief systems. One is a continuation of the other.


BTW, PBS doesn't know jack about the dynamics between christianity and judism. The above comment proves it.


No, they are completely different. Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah. Christianity holds that if Christ is not accepted as one's Lord and Savior, then they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Ask a Jew if they think Christianity is a ''continuation''...for them there IS NO continuation. The distinction in what it takes to enter Heaven makes them different.




On the contrary they are very much a continuation and also very simular. The difference between Christianity and Judism is one single thing. Timing. Thats all. Timing of the arrival of the messiah. Christians say Jesus was him and already came. Non-messianic (sp?) Jews believe he hasn't come yet but will.

Christians believe the messiah came and non-messianic jews believe he hasn't come yet.

[mammalicious]

That is a MAJOR fundamental difference. And Jesus isn't just the messiah...He is GOD in Christianity.

And if they Jews aren't believing that Jesus was the Messiah...that is ALSO a big difference.

Christians do not observe Jewish holidays, even though they are, in your opinion, a continuation of Judaism. And Jews do not observe Christian holidays. Just because Christians reference the Old Testament, don't think they are the same...Islam traces itself back to Abraham too...

[JohnM81]

That is a MAJOR fundamental difference. And Jesus isn't just the messiah...He is GOD in Christianity.

And if they Jews aren't believing that Jesus was the Messiah...that is ALSO a big difference.

Christians do not observe Jewish holidays, even though they are, in your opinion, a continuation of Judaism. And Jews do not observe Christian holidays. Just because Christians reference the Old Testament, don't think they are the same...Islam traces itself back to Abraham too...


"That is a MAJOR fundamental difference."

Of course and that is the point where Christianity starts with its NT and non messianic judism stops. I already stated this.


"And Jesus isn't just the messiah...He is GOD in Christianity."

Point?


"And if they Jews aren't believing that Jesus was the Messiah...that is ALSO a big difference."

Thanks for reiterating my previous post. Im happy you agree with it.


"Christians do not observe Jewish holidays, even though they are, in your opinion, a continuation of Judaism."

Not true. Many Christians do observe jewish holidays. Especially but not exclusively the jews that are christians.


"And Jews do not observe Christian holidays."

Again, not true. Many Jews, messianic, do obseve Christian holidays.


"Just because Christians reference the Old Testament, don't think they are the same...Islam traces itself back to Abraham too..."

The difference is that Christians don't just reference the Old testament, they believe in it. Muslims don't. They consider the bible to corrupted. So while it is true (as you claim) muslims reference the OT Christians go way beyond that say that it is not only true but inspired by God.

[Uncle]

PatrickHenry: The other three who agree with you that "Jesus is a jew" have posted their reasons for believing thatly and all have done a good job. We now await your reasons. Please post so that I might end the suspense. Thank you.

[Deadshot]

Mary, daughter of Ann was a Jew as was her husband Joseph. They were both traveling to fulfill the order from the Romans for Jews to be counted. Hence the reason that they couldn't get a room and had to stay in a stable.

So if your mama was a Jew, and since your "jewiness" is decided by your MOTHERS heritage, J.C. was a jew.

[BoogyMan]

Uncle, how can you possibly not see the point that DS, JohnM81, and Mamma are making that Christ was born a Jew? Are you somehow claiming he wasn't a Jew because he threw off their religion and ushered in the new convenant?

[PatrickHenry]

PatrickHenry: The other three who agree with you that "Jesus is a jew" have posted their reasons for believing thatly and all have done a good job. We now await your reasons. Please post so that I might end the suspense. Thank you.
The savior of mankind was prophesied throughout the Jewish scriptures. That was the whole purpose for God selecting the Israelites as a special people unto Himself. Not that they were themselves any more loved than other people. Not at all...

But so that God's incarnation could have a holiness of culture to be born into and to initiate His ministry to all mankind. And indeed, the contrast between what God hoped for and what Jesus actually encountered creates the essential conflict of the Gospel story.

In terms of Jesus' ancestry, he was a descendant of Judah...a Jew.
His name is Y'shua, Hebrew for "savior"
He called his disciples from among the Jews.
The Roman Judea was his homeland.

What more do you think would be needed to confirm Jesus identity as a Jew?

And I don't think that this thread should track any further off topic.

Jesus suffered and died for mankind's sake, for which I am profoundly grateful. However, the tragedy of extermination of Jews in Europe in the 1940s is a horror that should never be diminished by comparisons.

[Newscaster]

I wonder if any of you mavens on the life and death of Jesus truly know why he was crucified and please, the reason given in the New Testament is not the answer.

[PatrickHenry]

I wonder if any of you mavens on the life and death of Jesus truly know why he was crucified and please, the reason given in the New Testament is not the answer.
I'll bite, Newscaster...

[Newscaster]

According to Roman Law, it was a capitol offense to claim to be a king or emperor when there was a occupant of that throne in Rome. In other words.....there was one ONE emperor or king and he was in Rome or in the scattered provinces where he had been placed by Rome. The word got out, reaching Rome and the heirarchy in Jerusalen that Jesus was being called "The King of the Jews". When hauled up before the auhorities, and asked if he were the King of the Jews, Jesus did not answer and instead played word games telling his questioners that those were their words. This was taken by the Romans to represent a refusal to deny the charges.
Now, add to that the problems Jesus caused everywhere he went. Crowds gathered without permission of the King, commerce were interrupted because of those crowds and at times violence broke out in the form of pushing and shoving.
On the surface, that would be considered no big deal today but in Jerusalem, 2000 years ago, it was a big deal when the Romans were occupiers, when they were cruel and brutal and when, in order to continue their occuption, they had to maintain strict order. So, where under other circumstance, they might had ignored Jesus as being either a pest or troublemaker and handed down a minimum punishment, they came down hard and he paid a terrible price.
That description of the reason for the execution is written on ancient Roman documents stored in the Vatican archives since the Romans were very careful record keepers.
The next part I cannot explain, nor can anyone else. A search of civil records turned up no mention of Jesus other than he was one of about ten self proclaimed Messiahs in the Jerusalem area at the time. There is also no record of a Jesus being crucified around the time it was supposed to have taken place. It could be that there was once such a record but it was later removed but I dont believe there is anything that would back up that story.
There is also a possibility that the entire story is fiction since the first accounts to surface of what are now called Gospels, didnt show up until almost fifty years after the fact. And if they were actually written by the men we call Apostles, they would have to have written them in their 80s since there were mostly the same age or older than Jesus and after 50 years, memories start to fade, senility shows itself and even alzheimers. Add to that the number of times the story has been rewritten. It has to have undergone countless changes. That is simply human nature.
Ands finally......why lately, do most people tend to forget and neglect the apostle Judas Iscariot? I grew up hearing that he was the bad guy from the gitgo.
When did he received a pardon?
Now, I believe debating something that has never been proven and in all liklihood never will be, is pointless. If you have your own reasons why Jesus died, hold on to them and enjoy whatever comfort they give you. Also try living the life Jesus reportedly preached about and try not being a pissant against those who believe otherwise. I dont believe Jesus would have approved of anything less.

[Newscaster]

God, am I wordy !!!!!!!!!

[madbetcha2]

I said again -> Christ's flesh's form is jewis,but His Holy Soul is God - equal with Holy Father and Holy Spirit.He is the prove how God love mankind and send His Holy Son to the earth.He use a weakness human's body.Mary and Joseph become His Father and Mother only by ethics,and Yes, Mary is Christ's body's Mother,and in Holy Church we call her "Mother of God".

[Newscaster]

Madbetcha, tell me........how come God did not send Jesus to earth in the same way he sent Adam to earth? Since Adam is reputed to be the direct creation of God, is not Adam also the Son of God?

[madbetcha2]

Adam and us are CREATIONS!Our body is MODE by God,our Soul is from God's breath,another creative.Christ is God Himself!

[Newscaster]

If Christ is God himself, why did God just snap his fingers and appear on earth. Why take the 9 month way of doing it and force Mary to go thru Labor Pains and the whole 9 yards. Seems that if God wanted to appear on earth, he would just snap his fingers and there he would be in a second.

[mammalicious]

If Christ is God himself, why did God just snap his fingers and appear on earth. Why take the 9 month way of doing it and force Mary to go thru Labor Pains and the whole 9 yards. Seems that if God wanted to appear on earth, he would just snap his fingers and there he would be in a second.


That is an interesting idea...If God came to save all of mankind...why be born of a certain heritage? Why lay claim to one ethnicity and alienate others? Why not appear as the God of all humanity with no earthly ties? Why 'die for the sins of all' rather than just forgive?

[jafar00]

Adam and us are CREATIONS!Our body is MODE by God,our Soul is from God's breath,another creative.Christ is God Himself!


Jesus (upon him peace) is just as much a creation as we are. He was created with a word from God and that word was "Be". He was willed into existence from God.
God has no need for a Son. God has no mother or father. We put God above all that.

Yet Christians believe God, has a Son, who was really apparently God but prayed to himself so we wouldn't be too fooled, and they also talk about some mysterious extra spirit but they don't talk about it so much.

[JohnM81]

If Christ is God himself, why did God just snap his fingers and appear on earth. Why take the 9 month way of doing it and force Mary to go thru Labor Pains and the whole 9 yards. Seems that if God wanted to appear on earth, he would just snap his fingers and there he would be in a second.


He did. In the old testament Christ (the physical body of God) did appear several times. Why did he go through a birth this time around? Who knows. Perhaps it was a symbolic gesture of being born again. A moot point really when it comes to the quesiton of the veracity of christ or not.[hr]

Adam and us are CREATIONS!Our body is MODE by God,our Soul is from God's breath,another creative.Christ is God Himself!


Jesus (upon him peace) is just as much a creation as we are. He was created with a word from God and that word was "Be". He was willed into existence from God.
God has no need for a Son. God has no mother or father. We put God above all that.

Yet Christians believe God, has a Son, who was really apparently God but prayed to himself so we wouldn't be too fooled, and they also talk about some mysterious extra spirit but they don't talk about it so much.





Christ is no more a creation than God is. He is eternal because he is one of the manifestations of God. As is the holy spirit that Christians talk about often. You just didn't realize that because Islam unfortunately is a path that leads away from the truth that is God.

[Newscaster]

God may have appeared in the old Testament but at the same time, he cautioned the person near him to to view him. Especially Moses on Sinai. But Jesus never appeared nor was he ever mentioned in the OT including Isaiah who was just speculating, not making a firm prediction that was actially added after the NT was written. It was quite easy for the young Jesus to read Isaiah and later recreate those words and be mistaken for the person in the OT that Isaiah talked about.

[JohnM81]

God may have appeared in the old Testament but at the same time, he cautioned the person near him to to view him. Especially Moses on Sinai. But Jesus never appeared nor was he ever mentioned in the OT including Isaiah who was just speculating, not making a firm prediction that was actially added after the NT was written. It was quite easy for the young Jesus to read Isaiah and later recreate those words and be mistaken for the person in the OT that Isaiah talked about.


God appearing on mt. sinai isn't what I was refering to. And you are right God in his full glory (as it is stated in the bible) can't be viewed by man. But God manifested as a human can. Go read about God going down to sodom or his visit to Abram.

Jesus, the messiah, is mentioned hundreds of times in the OT. He is mentioned in the plurality of God and directly by way of prophesy.

"It was quite easy for the young Jesus to read Isaiah and later recreate those words"

If thats what you want to have faith in and believe go for it....

[heyjude]

How many pagan gods died for their people and rose from the dead in three days? At least a dozen. If you people want to belive in fairy tales, couldn't you at least have invented one of your own. The Jews did not kill Jesus because he never existed. Get a life.

[Newscaster]

This is a double message. First, John M81, the ideaa that Jesus may have acted in the manner described in Isaiah is NOT an isolated idea. He was a bible student and he was also a teenager. He could have easily staged a prank and then found himself embroiled in an impersonation he could not stop and once he got involved with those we have termed apostles, he was stuck. And when it waas over, he had taken the rap for them.
And when God spoke to Abraham (sic) he did not reveal himself other than his voice or so it has been written. But just as th Old Testament had been originally written by Jews, it was also rewritten by non-Jews (Christians) and thats where differences in terminology comes in and interpretations are different and why? To make the NT make sense.

Now, Hey Jude: Its easy to say Jesus never existed but there is a really no evidence one way or the other. There is also proof that in Jerusalem, at the time when Jesus is supposed to have been preaching, there were about 9 other men also claiming to be messiahs. They apparantly had the good sense to leave the area quickly and Jesus, the tenth man, found himself in the hands of he Roman troops. Now, was Jesus the true messiah or maybe one of the others was? You dont know and neither do I. And who cares. I believe what Jesus is quoted to have said, came directly from the Jewish bible, the Torah and Tanach. I say that for two years........one: Jesus was Jewish and knew no other bible. Two: the New Testament was still about 300 to 350 years away from being written by the gay scribes of Emperor Constantine and at that time, the NT was written for political, not religious reasons.

[JohnM81]

This is a double message. First, John M81, the ideaa that Jesus may have acted in the manner described in Isaiah is NOT an isolated idea. He was a bible student and he was also a teenager. He could have easily staged a prank and then found himself embroiled in an impersonation he could not stop and once he got involved with those we have termed apostles, he was stuck. And when it waas over, he had taken the rap for them.


You know heard from this guy that lives on my street that its also not a unpopular idea that Chirst was really an alien from planet mork and all of the things he did was through alien technology.

You know what is simular between our two stories? Both are presented with no evidence, both are equally unprovable, both can't be disproven, and I believe both are wrong.


And when God spoke to Abraham (sic) he did not reveal himself other than his voice or so it has been written.


Wrong re-read the OT and come back. Hint, read before Abraham's name was changed. I called him Abram for a reason.

[Newscaster]

You called him Abram because you read it in a Christian version of the New Testament where there are many pointless changes.

[JohnM81]

You called him Abram because you read it in a Christian version of the New Testament where there are many pointless changes.



Nope. I didn't read it in a Christian version of the New Testament.

[Newscaster]

John, sorry, I meant to say you read about Abraham in a Christian version of the Old Testament where they made pointless changes over the centuries. The founder of Judaism was ABRAHAM, not Abram.

[JohnM81]

John, sorry, I meant to say you read about Abraham in a Christian version of the Old Testament where they made pointless changes over the centuries. The founder of Judaism was ABRAHAM, not Abram.


1. No I didn't read about Abraham in a Christian version of the Old Testament.

2. Gen 17:5 read it.

[Newscaster]

Can you verify that the edition of the OT was produced by a Jewish publishing company or a Christian backed company. There is a distinct difference.

[jafar00]

Why don't you guys just get a Qur'aan. At least there is only one version, and it doesn't change according to who the publisher is. :/

[Newscaster]

Okay. I'll run right out and buy one now.

[JohnM81]

Can you verify that the edition of the OT was produced by a Jewish publishing company or a Christian backed company. There is a distinct difference.


What I use is a multi-translation source that has Christian trans, Jewish trans, OldT hewbrew, NT Greek. So pick the version you want me to use and I can.[hr]
Why don't you guys just get a Qur'aan. At least there is only one version, and it doesn't change according to who the publisher is. :/


Because Im actually seeking the truth and I don't believe the Qur'aan has it.

[Newscaster]

Basically, all three books say the same thing about how to live your life, how to relate to other people and how to prepare for whatever happens once your time is up. If self professed religious people spent more time in getting their acts together instead of pointing fingers, hurling insults and the like, the world might be a much better place. A major part of the problem is the fact, yes I said FACT, that most of the recriminations come from people who dont have a clue what they are talking about. They hear someone say something and they adopt it as "gospel" even though they dont understand a word of it and the trouble begins right then and there.
You also have ego playing a part. My religion is better then yours or my bible is truer than yours and I'm going to heaven and you are not. You are like spouiled children. Just look at the primary title of this thread. Do you really believe the death of one man was more horrible than the deaths of far more than just 6 million? And even if you do, did you consider the reaction of decendants of the millions who were murdered in th 1930's & 40's when compared to the handful of people who mourned Jesus two thousand years ago. These are the things that cause the trouble in this world whether it comes from Jews, Christians or Muslims.
Why now just SHUT THE HELL UP ! and live your life like you are supposed to and let the next guy do the same without interference from you.

[mammalicious]

This is a double message. First, John M81, the ideaa that Jesus may have acted in the manner described in Isaiah is NOT an isolated idea. He was a bible student and he was also a teenager. He could have easily staged a prank and then found himself embroiled in an impersonation he could not stop and once he got involved with those we have termed apostles, he was stuck. And when it waas over, he had taken the rap for them.


You know heard from this guy that lives on my street that its also not a unpopular idea that Chirst was really an alien from planet mork and all of the things he did was through alien technology.

You know what is simular between our two stories? Both are presented with no evidence, both are equally unprovable, both can't be disproven, and I believe both are wrong.


And when God spoke to Abraham (sic) he did not reveal himself other than his voice or so it has been written.


Wrong re-read the OT and come back. Hint, read before Abraham's name was changed. I called him Abram for a reason.


But what is the most logical reason? That a student of the Torah quoted it often, and began to believe his own press and found himself in a ton of trouble with the authorities...or that God was 'born,' walked among a group of folks, died and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven...only allowing a select few to witness it so that they could be persecuted as well...or an alien impregnated a young girl, the kid grew up with odd powers...and then was 'raised' using a foreign technology and ''beamed up'' to the heavens?

One is 'probability'...the others are 'faith'

[Newscaster]

Jesus was a human/alien?

[JohnM81]

But what is the most logical reason? That a student of the Torah quoted it often, and began to believe his own press and found himself in a ton of trouble with the authorities...or that God was 'born,' walked among a group of folks, died and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven...only allowing a select few to witness it so that they could be persecuted as well...or an alien impregnated a young girl, the kid grew up with odd powers...and then was 'raised' using a foreign technology and ''beamed up'' to the heavens?

One is 'probability'...the others are 'faith'



A theory can be 100% logical, 100% consistant, and 100% wrong. A logical arguement without evidence is just as faith based as religion.

[mammalicious]

But what is the most logical reason? That a student of the Torah quoted it often, and began to believe his own press and found himself in a ton of trouble with the authorities...or that God was 'born,' walked among a group of folks, died and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven...only allowing a select few to witness it so that they could be persecuted as well...or an alien impregnated a young girl, the kid grew up with odd powers...and then was 'raised' using a foreign technology and ''beamed up'' to the heavens?

One is 'probability'...the others are 'faith'



A theory can be 100% logical, 100% consistant, and 100% wrong. A logical arguement without evidence is just as faith based as religion.


True..but not all theories are the same...scientific theory is not the same as the Scooby Doo Gangs'.

And faith is the belief DESPITE logic or reason to the contrary.

[JohnM81]

But what is the most logical reason? That a student of the Torah quoted it often, and began to believe his own press and found himself in a ton of trouble with the authorities...or that God was 'born,' walked among a group of folks, died and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven...only allowing a select few to witness it so that they could be persecuted as well...or an alien impregnated a young girl, the kid grew up with odd powers...and then was 'raised' using a foreign technology and ''beamed up'' to the heavens?

One is 'probability'...the others are 'faith'



A theory can be 100% logical, 100% consistant, and 100% wrong. A logical arguement without evidence is just as faith based as religion.


True..but not all theories are the same...scientific theory is not the same as the Scooby Doo Gangs'.

And faith is the belief DESPITE logic or reason to the contrary.


And Jesus being a fake is a scientific theory? Don't know why you brought that up.

Faith isn't a belief despite logic and reasoning. Faith is hope.

[jafar00]

Just look at the primary title of this thread. Do you really believe the death of one man was more horrible than the deaths of far more than just 6 million?

Simple Answer,

No. The suffering of one man cannot compare to the suffering of the Jews and others in the German camps of WW2.

[Newscaster]

Jafar, it surprised me that you referred to Jesus as "one man". Not many Christians would do that.

[moses2792796]

Jafar is a muslim...or was that sarcasm

[Newscaster]

I don't think anyone missed that point.

[mammalicious]

But what is the most logical reason? That a student of the Torah quoted it often, and began to believe his own press and found himself in a ton of trouble with the authorities...or that God was 'born,' walked among a group of folks, died and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven...only allowing a select few to witness it so that they could be persecuted as well...or an alien impregnated a young girl, the kid grew up with odd powers...and then was 'raised' using a foreign technology and ''beamed up'' to the heavens?

One is 'probability'...the others are 'faith'



A theory can be 100% logical, 100% consistant, and 100% wrong. A logical arguement without evidence is just as faith based as religion.


True..but not all theories are the same...scientific theory is not the same as the Scooby Doo Gangs'.

And faith is the belief DESPITE logic or reason to the contrary.


And Jesus being a fake is a scientific theory? Don't know why you brought that up.

Faith isn't a belief despite logic and reasoning. Faith is hope.



Where did I state that Jesus being fake was scientific theory?? My response was to your assertion that ''a theory can be 100%...'' I think there have been findings that there was a Jesus that lived and was executed by Roman decree. However you will never find scientific evidence that supports that he rose from the dead and was God. Scientific theory requires a testable hypothesis that will produce consistent, predictable results each time. It's not the same as when someone simply says ''I have a theory on that.''

Faith is hope...hope that despite reason, something will happen.

[Newscaster]

Most of the thungs people say they believe in as part of their faith is actually a very strong hope that they are right. They believe they will go to heaven when they die. They hope they will because the idea of life just stopping on a dime is too tough to imagine. And they are not ready to say that when you die, its all over for good. So they hang on to the notion that there is more and figure that if enough people believe that, it will be so. They also have faith in a person, ie: Jesus and to bolster that faith they attribute to him supernatural powers. But they dont ascribe supernatural things to anything or anyone else. Why not? And as time goes by, the stories surrounding that person get larger and larger and more amazing with each telling. Just listen to some of the TV evangelists and the narratives they tell while at the same time seeking money from their audiences. Is that true faith or a con game?

[jafar00]

Jafar, it surprised me that you referred to Jesus as "one man". Not many Christians would do that.


Why does it surprise you. He was one man, a great man, and a Holy Prophet of God, but he was still a man as were others before him like Adam, Abraham, Moses, Noah etc. (upon them all God's blessings)

[Newscaster]

Jesus was a man...a man just as I am a man and you are a man. The "HOLY" part is attached to his story but other "JUST MEN". And most Christians will refer to Jesus as God, Son of God, or a host of other titles. Even Muslims ascribe titles to him such as Prophet, etc. Jews do not. To Jews, he was a young man, a great thinker and far ahead of his time, but NOT holy, not Godlike, just a guy who got into a peck of trouble and took the rap for the others he hung out with. But he was just a Jewish young man.