Anti-semitism/Anti-zionism

[Josepha]

What is the line between them? I read about zionist agenda, zionist control of the media, zionist plots, and I can't help but think that these are the same canards spread about jews for centuries. I'm not thrilled with the govt of Israel, any more than I am thrilled with Bush - but I'm not sure where the line is drawn between these two. Perhaps part of the problem is the acceptance that any jew in the world - regardless of their stand on israel - is an accepted target of anti-zionist attacks. Another part is that it's easy to dislike Bush, yet still believe that america deserves to exist.


Comments, anyone?

[PatrickHenry]

I just read an article on this topic.
I oppose Zionism, but not Jews.
Here's the article
http://www.pajumontreal.org/paju_en/?/60/
Criticizing Israel is not an act of bigotry

By Jason Kunin

A grassroots revolt is underway in Jewish communities throughout the world,

a revolt that has panicked the elite organizations that have long functioned

as official mouthpieces for the community. The latest sign of this panic is

the recent publication by the American Jewish Committee of an essay by Alvin

H. Rosenfeld, entitled Progressive Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism,

which accuses progressive Jews of abetting a resurgent wave of anti-Semitism

by publicly criticizing Israel.

This is the latest attempt to conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism in

order to silence or marginalize criticism of Israel. This approach is widely

used in Canada. Upon becoming CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress, Bernie

Farber declared that one of his goals was to "educate Canadians about the

links between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism."

It is misleading for groups like the CJC to pretend that the Jewish

community is united in support of Israel. A growing number of Jews around

the world are joining the chorus of concern about the deteriorating

condition of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories as well as the

inferior social and economic status of Israel’s own Palestinian population.

In a world where uncritical support for Israel is becoming less and less

tenable due to the expanding human rights disaster in the West Bank and

Gaza, leaders of Jewish communities outside Israel have circled their

wagons, heightened their pro-Israel rhetoric, and demonized Israel’s

critics. These leaders imply that increased concerns about Israel do not

result from that state’s actions, but from an increase in anti-Semitism.

Despite this effort to absolve Israel of responsibility for its treatment of

Palestinians, Jewish opposition is growing and becoming more organized. On

Feb. 5, a group in Britain calling itself Jewish Independent Voices

published an open letter in The Guardian newspaper in which they distanced

themselves from "Those who claim to speak on behalf of Jews in Britain and

other countries (and who) consistently put support for the policies of an

occupying power above the human rights of the occupied people." Among the

signatories of the letter were Nobel-prize winning playwright Harold Pinter,

filmmaker Mike Leigh, writer John Berger, and many others.

This development follows the emergence of similar groups in Sweden (Jews for

Israeli-Palestinian Peace), France (Union Juive Francaise pour la paix,

Rencontre Progressiste Juive), Italy (Ebrei contro l’occupazione), Germany

(Jüdische Stimme für gerechten Frieden in Nahost), Belgium (Union des

Progressistes Juifs de Belgique), the United States (Jewish Voice for Peace,

Brit Tzedek, Tikkun, the Bronfman-Soros initiative), South Africa, and

others, including the umbrella organization European Jews for a Just Peace

and the numerous groups within Israel itself. In Canada, the Alliance of

Concerned Jewish Canadians (ACJC) has been founded as an umbrella

organization bringing together Jewish individuals and groups from across the

country who oppose Israel’s continued domination of the West Bank and Gaza.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, nor does it "bleed into

anti-Semitism," a formulation that says essentially the same thing. Some

genuine anti-Semites do use Israel as a cover for maligning the Jewish

people as a whole, but it is fallacious to argue that anyone who criticizes

Israel is anti-Semitic because anti-Semites attack Israel. There are some

anti-Semites who support Israel because they are Christian fundamentalists

who see the return of Jews to Jerusalem as a precondition for the return of

Christ and the conversion of Jews to Christianity, or because they are

xenophobes who want to get rid of Jews in their midst. Anti-Semites take

positions in support of and in opposition to Israel.

It is wrong to criticize all Jews for Israel’s wrongdoings, yet Israel’s

leadership and its supporters in the Diaspora consistently encourage this

view by insisting that Israel acts on behalf of the entire Jewish people.

This shifts blame for Israel’s crimes onto the shoulders of all Jews. But

Jewish critics of Israel demonstrate through their words and deeds that the

Jewish community is not monolithic in its support of Israel.

Defenders of Israel often argue that Israel is forced to do what it does —

to destroy people’s homes, to keep them under the boot of occupation, to

seal them into walled ghettos, to brutalize them daily with military

incursions and random checkpoints — to protect its citizens from

Palestinian violence. Palestinian violence, however, is rooted in the theft

of their land, the diversion of their water, the violence of the occupation,

and the indignity of having one’s own very existence posed as a "demographic

threat."

To justify Israel’s continued occupation and theft of Palestinian land, the

state and its defenders attempt to deny Palestinian suffering, arguing

instead that Palestinian resentment is rooted not in Israeli violence, but

rather in Islam, or the "Arab mentality," or a mystical anti-Semitism

inherent in Arab or Muslim culture. Consequently, pro-Israel advocacy

depends upon on the active dissemination of Islamophobia. Not surprisingly,

engendering hatred in this manner inflames anti-Jewish sentiment among Arabs

and Muslims. None of this is a recipe for making Jews safe.

Jewish people can help avert the catastrophic effects of Israeli behaviour,

but only by taking a stand in opposition to it.

* This article was written with help––––––-

Jason Kunin of Toronto is a member of the administration council of the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians. This article was written with help from other council members, including Cy Gonick and Dr. Mark Etkin, both of Winnipeg, Andy Lehrer of Toronto, Sid Shniad of Vancouver and Abraham Weizfeld of Montreal.

[Josepha]

I hate arguing with opinion pieces - and I completely disagree with this one. It sets up a paper tiger, then knocks it down. I never said criticizing Israel was an act of anti-semitism, nor do I believe supporting the right of Israel to exist is an anti-muslim act. I am not demonizing anyone - I am one of israel's critics, but it is one thing to criticize a govt, and another to blow up a european synagogue. The writer of the article even blames those victims here, making this blanket claim (link please - I'd love to see a govt quote saying Israel acts for all Jews). There is a complete disregard for anything positive about Israel, including an active peace movement - and no acknowledgement of any responsibility for violent actions on the other side.

yet Israel’sleadership and its supporters in the Diaspora consistently encourage this view by insisting that Israel acts on behalf of the entire Jewish people. This shifts blame for Israel’s crimes onto the shoulders of all Jews.


I just read an article on this topic.
I oppose Zionism, but not Jews.
Here's the article
http://www.pajumontreal.org/paju_en/?/60/
Criticizing Israel is not an act of bigotry

By Jason Kunin

A grassroots revolt is underway in Jewish communities throughout the world,

a revolt that has panicked the elite organizations that have long functioned

as official mouthpieces for the community. The latest sign of this panic is

the recent publication by the American Jewish Committee of an essay by Alvin

H. Rosenfeld, entitled Progressive Jewish Thought and the New Anti-Semitism,

which accuses progressive Jews of abetting a resurgent wave of anti-Semitism

by publicly criticizing Israel.

This is the latest attempt to conflate anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism in

order to silence or marginalize criticism of Israel. This approach is widely

used in Canada. Upon becoming CEO of the Canadian Jewish Congress, Bernie

Farber declared that one of his goals was to "educate Canadians about the

links between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism."

It is misleading for groups like the CJC to pretend that the Jewish

community is united in support of Israel. A growing number of Jews around

the world are joining the chorus of concern about the deteriorating

condition of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories as well as the

inferior social and economic status of Israel’s own Palestinian population.

In a world where uncritical support for Israel is becoming less and less

tenable due to the expanding human rights disaster in the West Bank and

Gaza, leaders of Jewish communities outside Israel have circled their

wagons, heightened their pro-Israel rhetoric, and demonized Israel’s

critics. These leaders imply that increased concerns about Israel do not

result from that state’s actions, but from an increase in anti-Semitism.

Despite this effort to absolve Israel of responsibility for its treatment of

Palestinians, Jewish opposition is growing and becoming more organized. On

Feb. 5, a group in Britain calling itself Jewish Independent Voices

published an open letter in The Guardian newspaper in which they distanced

themselves from "Those who claim to speak on behalf of Jews in Britain and

other countries (and who) consistently put support for the policies of an

occupying power above the human rights of the occupied people." Among the

signatories of the letter were Nobel-prize winning playwright Harold Pinter,

filmmaker Mike Leigh, writer John Berger, and many others.

This development follows the emergence of similar groups in Sweden (Jews for

Israeli-Palestinian Peace), France (Union Juive Francaise pour la paix,

Rencontre Progressiste Juive), Italy (Ebrei contro l’occupazione), Germany

(Jüdische Stimme für gerechten Frieden in Nahost), Belgium (Union des

Progressistes Juifs de Belgique), the United States (Jewish Voice for Peace,

Brit Tzedek, Tikkun, the Bronfman-Soros initiative), South Africa, and

others, including the umbrella organization European Jews for a Just Peace

and the numerous groups within Israel itself. In Canada, the Alliance of

Concerned Jewish Canadians (ACJC) has been founded as an umbrella

organization bringing together Jewish individuals and groups from across the

country who oppose Israel’s continued domination of the West Bank and Gaza.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic, nor does it "bleed into

anti-Semitism," a formulation that says essentially the same thing. Some

genuine anti-Semites do use Israel as a cover for maligning the Jewish

people as a whole, but it is fallacious to argue that anyone who criticizes

Israel is anti-Semitic because anti-Semites attack Israel. There are some

anti-Semites who support Israel because they are Christian fundamentalists

who see the return of Jews to Jerusalem as a precondition for the return of

Christ and the conversion of Jews to Christianity, or because they are

xenophobes who want to get rid of Jews in their midst. Anti-Semites take

positions in support of and in opposition to Israel.

It is wrong to criticize all Jews for Israel’s wrongdoings, yet Israel’s

leadership and its supporters in the Diaspora consistently encourage this

view by insisting that Israel acts on behalf of the entire Jewish people.

This shifts blame for Israel’s crimes onto the shoulders of all Jews. But

Jewish critics of Israel demonstrate through their words and deeds that the

Jewish community is not monolithic in its support of Israel.

Defenders of Israel often argue that Israel is forced to do what it does —

to destroy people’s homes, to keep them under the boot of occupation, to

seal them into walled ghettos, to brutalize them daily with military

incursions and random checkpoints — to protect its citizens from

Palestinian violence. Palestinian violence, however, is rooted in the theft

of their land, the diversion of their water, the violence of the occupation,

and the indignity of having one’s own very existence posed as a "demographic

threat."

To justify Israel’s continued occupation and theft of Palestinian land, the

state and its defenders attempt to deny Palestinian suffering, arguing

instead that Palestinian resentment is rooted not in Israeli violence, but

rather in Islam, or the "Arab mentality," or a mystical anti-Semitism

inherent in Arab or Muslim culture. Consequently, pro-Israel advocacy

depends upon on the active dissemination of Islamophobia. Not surprisingly,

engendering hatred in this manner inflames anti-Jewish sentiment among Arabs

and Muslims. None of this is a recipe for making Jews safe.

Jewish people can help avert the catastrophic effects of Israeli behaviour,

but only by taking a stand in opposition to it.

* This article was written with help––––––-

Jason Kunin of Toronto is a member of the administration council of the Alliance of Concerned Jewish Canadians. This article was written with help from other council members, including Cy Gonick and Dr. Mark Etkin, both of Winnipeg, Andy Lehrer of Toronto, Sid Shniad of Vancouver and Abraham Weizfeld of Montreal.

[Josepha]

Try this - to show you it isn't a figment of my imagination, or hypersensitivity - it's the latest report from Human Rights First - http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/discrimination/reports.asp?country=multi&id=14&misc1=survey-antisem2

2007 Hate Crime Survey - Companion Survey on Antisemitism - Causes and Consequences

Full Report

Antisemitism has persisted at a high level since late 2000 throughout Europe and North America. Often during this period it has surged in response to international events involving Israel. Attacks that are directly tied to the Middle East conflict are an important part of this picture, with some political groups indiscriminately targeting Jews everywhere for violence as if proxies for Israel. Europeans and immigrants alike have invoked the Middle East conflict to demonize Jews as a people and to incite violence against Jews. Terrorist attacks such as the Istanbul synagogue bombings of November 2003 have illustrated the potential extremes of violence intended to give voice to enmity towards Israel.

To some, criticism of Israel is itself a part of the "new antisemitism." Whether - or rather, when - such criticism should be considered a manifestation of antisemitism is hotly disputed. In this debate, criticism of Israel's policies or practices, or of the Jewish national movement, Zionism, is sometimes portrayed as inherently antisemitic. Unfortunately, the distinction between legitimate criticism of Israel and antisemitism is often blurred. But such criticism which disparages or demonizes Jews as individuals or collectively in attacks on Israel or Zionism - or which takes the form of broadside attacks against "Jews" or "the Jewish State" - crosses the line to become antisemitic expression.[2]

In 2006 as in previous years, antisemitic discourse concerning Israel has often been a major factor in antisemitic violence. The blurring of criticism of a nation or a government into racism or religious intolerance is a common feature in times of armed conflict and heightened international tensions, particularly when building upon firm foundations of hatred and prejudice. But this convergence and merging of ancient prejudices and political animosity has been particularly widespread and acute with regard to Israel, and has become a persistent feature of antisemitic discourse. As the British Community Security Trust wrote in early 2007, this is often the case:

Messages that start out as attacks on alleged Israeli policy or behavior often conclude with abuse of, or threats to, all Jews, the wish that all Jews were dead, claims of Jewish conspiracy or the accusation that Jews killed Christ. The antisemitism is compounded if the incident is targeted at a Jewish person or institution - such as a synagogue - that is then held responsible for the alleged actions of the Israeli government. This charge of collective responsibility and collective guilt, whereby every Jew in the world is supposedly answerable for the behavior of every other Jew, is one of the fundamental building blocks of all racism.[3]

In some countries, the Israel-Hezbollah conflict was a trigger for a surge in antisemitic violence, although levels of extreme violence were not comparable with those reported in France, for example, at the time of the Second Intifada (beginning September 29, 2000). Early reporting undertaken by the European Jewish Congress on the level of antisemitic incidents during this time period point to an increase in a number of European countries in such incidents, especially in the form of hate mail and threats directed at Jewish organizations, as well as vandalism and graffiti.[4]

On September 29, 2006, in Norway, a gunman directed automatic rifle-fire at an Oslo synagogue - the largest Jewish temple in the country. Four men arrested for the attack were subsequently held on multiple charges, including terrorism, and were accused also of plotting the assassination of the Israeli ambassador and bombings of the Israeli and U.S. embassies.[5] The synagogue attack occurred in the context of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, and followed months of incidents in which the synagogue appeared to be targeted as a means to express hatred for Israel.[6] It was defaced with graffiti, the community's cantor was physically attacked, and in one incident, captured on security cameras, a man defecated on the synagogue steps and then broke two windows with stones.[7]

In the United Kingdom, the Community Security Trust reported a surge of 132 antisemitic incidents in 33 days between July and August 2006, with incidents including hate mail, verbal abuse, and graffiti on Jewish property coming from across the country. This is in comparison to the 455 antisemitic incidents reported for all of 2005.[8] In France, while hate crime incidents may have declined overall in 2006, Jewish community sources reported 61 antisemitic incidents in July and August, an increase of 79 percent over the same period in 2005, when 34 acts were recorded.[9]

Modern antisemitism is multifaceted and deep-rooted. It cannot be viewed solely as a transitory side-effect of the conflict in the Middle East. Antisemitic incitement and violence in Europe and North America both predated the Middle East conflict and continues to flourish based on centuries-old sources of hatred and prejudice. The branding of Jews as a people as a scapegoat for both ancient and modern ills remains a powerful underlying factor in the irrational antisemitic hatred that continues to manifest itself today.

The growing nationalist extremist movements of Europe are steeped in the most primitive ideologies of antisemitism. Many of these groups demonstrate a shared hatred and commitment to carry out violence against both Europe's Jewish and Muslim communities as well as other minorities. In other situations, an antisemitic attack will have no apparent link to organized extremist movements, but will be no less lethal for being a violent assault by ordinary people steeped in antisemitism. In Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, for example, a group of young men shouting antisemitic slogans and brandishing bottles attacked three Orthodox Jewish men on December 16, 2006 injuring one severely as well as a passerby who came to their aid. The three had just left a service at a synagogue in the city's Podol district.[10]

Sometimes violence against Jews forms part of a larger pattern of racism, notably in European football (soccer) violence. On the night of November 23, 2006, in the aftermath of a match in France between Paris Saint-Germain and Israel's Tel Aviv Hapoel on the outskirts of Paris, some 150 local fans shouting "kill the Jews," and "the dirty Jew must die" attacked 25-year-old Yanniv Hazout, a French Jew.[11] The incident received national and international prominence in part because a black police officer, Antoine Granomort rushed to Hazout's aid - and one alleged attacker was killed. In the fracas, Granomort reportedly first used teargas to fend off kicks and punches from the mob and then fired his revolver, killing one of the alleged attackers.[12]

The crowd hurled insults - ‘dirty Jew,' ‘Dirty Negro' and monkey cries - and raised Nazi salutes," the state prosecutor, Jean-Claude Marin, said afterward. ... Some fans shouted, "Death to the Jew!" before attacking Hazout. When the crowd began kicking and beating Granomort and apparently threatened to kill the fan he was protecting, he fired his service revolver, killing Julien Quemener, 25, a home-appliance technician, and wounding Mounir Boujaer, 26, a truck driver....

The response of senior public authorities was to stress the importance of eradicating racism and antisemitism in football. Then-Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy (now president of France), demanded action against racism in football, even if meant barring spectators. After meeting with soccer officials and representatives of fans, he told the press "We prefer to see stands that are empty than full of unwanted people." "We no longer want racists, Nazi salutes, monkey noises in stadiums. Soccer is not war."[13]

The multiple strands of ancient and modern antisemitism can also come together in particular surges of violence, when perpetrators motivated by the traditional hatreds of antisemitism associated with the European extreme right make common cause with minority populations concerned with the Middle East. Events that set these particular surges in motion may mean different things to different people, but combine to reinforce preexistent prejudices and hatred.

[PatrickHenry]

I hate arguing with opinion pieces - and I completely disagree with this one.
Criticizing Israel is not an act of bigotry


So... if you completely disagree...are you saying that to criticize Israel IS an act of bigotry?

Otherwise, I don't see how you could be in COMPLETE disagreement.

I am unsure what point you are trying to make with the quoted article from the human rights organization.

And here's a parallel issue that is very close to my soul. Any historical revisionism of the Holocaust Doctrine is a crime in many European nations. I don't approve of censorship or criminalizing discussions of historical evidence. Do you? Let the chips fall where they may without putting duct tape over a person's mouth and hauling them off to jail for historical curiosity.

I think the truth can make its own way without getting the (thought) police involved.

[Josepha]

I thought my post made it clear that i disagree with the substance of the article - and that I also disagree wit the govt of Israel.

As to why I posted the human rights watch report - did you read it? It's quite relevent to my topic - which holocaust revisionism is not. We can address that on another thread if you want to start one - let's not jack this in it's infancy. Would you care to address any of the points made - such as:

To some, criticism of Israel is itself a part of the "new antisemitism." Whether - or rather, when - such criticism should be considered a manifestation of antisemitism is hotly disputed. In this debate, criticism of Israel's policies or practices, or of the Jewish national movement, Zionism, is sometimes portrayed as inherently antisemitic. Unfortunately, the distinction between legitimate criticism of Israel and antisemitism is often blurred. But such criticism which disparages or demonizes Jews as individuals or collectively in attacks on Israel or Zionism - or which takes the form of broadside attacks against "Jews" or "the Jewish State" - crosses the line to become antisemitic expression.[2]

In 2006 as in previous years, antisemitic discourse concerning Israel has often been a major factor in antisemitic violence. The blurring of criticism of a nation or a government into racism or religious intolerance is a common feature in times of armed conflict and heightened international tensions, particularly when building upon firm foundations of hatred and prejudice. But this convergence and merging of ancient prejudices and political animosity has been particularly widespread and acute with regard to Israel, and has become a persistent feature of antisemitic discourse. As the British Community Security Trust wrote in early 2007, this is often the case:

Messages that start out as attacks on alleged Israeli policy or behavior often conclude with abuse of, or threats to, all Jews, the wish that all Jews were dead, claims of Jewish conspiracy or the accusation that Jews killed Christ. The antisemitism is compounded if the incident is targeted at a Jewish person or institution - such as a synagogue - that is then held responsible for the alleged actions of the Israeli government. This charge of collective responsibility and collective guilt, whereby every Jew in the world is supposedly answerable for the behavior of every other Jew, is one of the fundamental building blocks of all racism.[3]

In some countries, the Israel-Hezbollah conflict was a trigger for a surge in antisemitic violence, although levels of extreme violence were not comparable with those reported in France, for example, at the time of the Second Intifada (beginning September 29, 2000). Early reporting undertaken by the European Jewish Congress on the level of antisemitic incidents during this time period point to an increase in a number of European countries in such incidents, especially in the form of hate mail and threats directed at Jewish organizations, as well as vandalism and graffiti.[4]

On September 29, 2006, in Norway, a gunman directed automatic rifle-fire at an Oslo synagogue - the largest Jewish temple in the country. Four men arrested for the attack were subsequently held on multiple charges, including terrorism, and were accused also of plotting the assassination of the Israeli ambassador and bombings of the Israeli and U.S. embassies.[5] The synagogue attack occurred in the context of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, and followed months of incidents in which the synagogue appeared to be targeted as a means to express hatred for Israel.[6] It was defaced with graffiti, the community's cantor was physically attacked, and in one incident, captured on security cameras, a man defecated on the synagogue steps and then broke two windows with stones.[7]







I hate arguing with opinion pieces - and I completely disagree with this one.
Criticizing Israel is not an act of bigotry


So... if you completely disagree...are you saying that to criticize Israel IS an act of bigotry?

Otherwise, I don't see how you could be in COMPLETE disagreement.

I am unsure what point you are trying to make with the quoted article from the human rights organization.

And here's a parallel issue that is very close to my soul. Any historical revisionism of the Holocaust Doctrine is a crime in many European nations. I don't approve of censorship or criminalizing discussions of historical evidence. Do you? Let the chips fall where they may without putting duct tape over a person's mouth and hauling them off to jail for historical curiosity.

I think the truth can make its own way without getting the (thought) police involved.

[PatrickHenry]

I thought my post made it clear that i disagree with the substance of the article - and that I also disagree wit the govt of Israel.You disagree with the substance, but not the title? Are you saying that the content does not support the title's premise?

Because I disagree with the government of Israel, am not opposed to Jews as an ethnicity, a religious group or just as individual people. There is, IMHO, a Zionist agenda, one that has continued to oppress the original inhabitants of the region. Research shows that hundreds of Palestinian villages were depopulated and blown up by Israeli military forces in the war of 1946-48, most BEFORE the response by surrounding Arabic nations. There is evidence from Ben Gurion's diaries and other sources that it was a purposeful plan to kill and drive out the Arabs who inhabited the land.

As to why I posted the human rights watch report - did you read it? It's quite relevent to my topic - which holocaust revisionism is not. We can address that on another thread if you want to start one - let's not jack this in it's infancy. Would you care to address any of the points made - such as: Yes, I did read it. That's why I was asking you what point you were making. You still haven't made it clear, and you are asking ME to argue with a document (even though YOU dislike arguing with opinion pieces). Well, OK. I'll respond to your quotes.

To some, criticism of Israel is itself a part of the "new antisemitism." Whether - or rather, when - such criticism should be considered a manifestation of antisemitism is hotly disputed. In this debate, criticism of Israel's policies or practices, or of the Jewish national movement, Zionism, is sometimes portrayed as inherently antisemitic. Unfortunately, the distinction between legitimate criticism of Israel and antisemitism is often blurred. But such criticism which disparages or demonizes Jews as individuals or collectively in attacks on Israel or Zionism - or which takes the form of broadside attacks against "Jews" or "the Jewish State" - crosses the line to become antisemitic expression.[2]I do agree that there are antiSemites who use the (otherwise righteous) opposition to Zionism for their own agenda of Jew-hate. So it is important to make a distinction between the two.

In 2006 as in previous years, antisemitic discourse concerning Israel has often been a major factor in antisemitic violence. The blurring of criticism of a nation or a government into racism or religious intolerance is a common feature in times of armed conflict and heightened international tensions, particularly when building upon firm foundations of hatred and prejudice. But this convergence and merging of ancient prejudices and political animosity has been particularly widespread and acute with regard to Israel, and has become a persistent feature of antisemitic discourse. As the British Community Security Trust wrote in early 2007, this is often the case: Does this give Israel a pass when it comes to atrocity? Because they may not be criticized as Jews, their nation may not be criticized for any policies whatever? Even if it seems that they are pursuing a course of ethnic cleansing?

Messages that start out as attacks on alleged Israeli policy or behavior often conclude with abuse of, or threats to, all Jews, the wish that all Jews were dead, claims of Jewish conspiracy or the accusation that Jews killed Christ. The antisemitism is compounded if the incident is targeted at a Jewish person or institution - such as a synagogue - that is then held responsible for the alleged actions of the Israeli government. This charge of collective responsibility and collective guilt, whereby every Jew in the world is supposedly answerable for the behavior of every other Jew, is one of the fundamental building blocks of all racism.[3] We need to be cautious that this does not happen in this debate. Please say so if you see such things happening here. However, I must note that the group I mentioned elsewhere, Orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism and Israel, deem it responsible for the increase in antiSemitism internationally. Why? Because Zionism is frequently confused with a Jewish agenda. I submit that this is likely because Zionists wish it so. Jews, after all, have international sympathy and support because of the Holocaust. If Zionists can use this sympathy as a smokescreen to drive out all opposition to their expansion, it works for THEM, even if it results in injustice and increasing antiSemitism. And, I suppose many Jews believe that Israel is a benefit to them. I think it is a disaster.

In some countries, the Israel-Hezbollah conflict was a trigger for a surge in antisemitic violence, although levels of extreme violence were not comparable with those reported in France, for example, at the time of the Second Intifada (beginning September 29, 2000). Early reporting undertaken by the European Jewish Congress on the level of antisemitic incidents during this time period point to an increase in a number of European countries in such incidents, especially in the form of hate mail and threats directed at Jewish organizations, as well as vandalism and graffiti.[4] I condemn violence directed at Jews. Vandalism of religious buildings and groups who are simply Jewish is wrong. However, espousing the Zionist agenda of violence toward Palestinians may render Jewish targets more legitimate, even as Muslim "charities" who financially support violence have put them on the list of terrorist orgs in the US. But Jews of good conscience MUST investigate and not uncritically support Israeli atrocities against civilians.

On September 29, 2006, in Norway, a gunman directed automatic rifle-fire at an Oslo synagogue - the largest Jewish temple in the country. Four men arrested for the attack were subsequently held on multiple charges, including terrorism, and were accused also of plotting the assassination of the Israeli ambassador and bombings of the Israeli and U.S. embassies.[5] The synagogue attack occurred in the context of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict, and followed months of incidents in which the synagogue appeared to be targeted as a means to express hatred for Israel.[6] It was defaced with graffiti, the community's cantor was physically attacked, and in one incident, captured on security cameras, a man defecated on the synagogue steps and then broke two windows with stones.[7]
Obviously this criminal behavior cannot be condoned. It must be dealt with as a crime, not excused as a response to the Zionist agenda.

So are we clear on this yet? That antiSemitism and antiZionism are two separate POVs? Just that we need to remember that there is a stealth move by antiSemites to use AntiZionism for the purposes of an older agenda of hatred?

[crimzonsol]

Does this give Israel a pass when it comes to atrocity?


The Quote you were responding to was not legitimizing the actions of Israel, it was explaining how Anti-Zionism is affecting Anti-Semitism.


Because they may not be criticized as Jews, their nation may not be criticized for any policies whatever?


I think an important distiniction needs to be made between the government of Israel and the people of Israel. You should not critize a nation for their governments policies. To me an Anti-Zionist regects the legitimacy of Israels right to exist, no matter the governments policy. I critize the Israeli government, but I do not regect Israels right to exist. I can not claim to know what you think PatrickHenry, but from what I can tell you would have no problem with Israel if it reversed its policy and tried to acommodate the Palestinians needs.


But Jews of good conscience MUST investigate and not uncritically support Israeli atrocities against civilians.

Would you say I am a Jew of good conscience, I just want to know so I can understand your meaning more clearly.

[PatrickHenry]

crimson, you are more willing to discuss these issues than many Jews I have met in discussion forums. Many just label me an antiSemite and refuse to discuss rationally.

But listen to this: My son is a converted Jew. He is 35 years of age and a solid member of his synagogue. His wife is ethnically one half Jewish on her father's side. She had to be converted, too, because Jewish ethnicity and religion is from the mother (go figure!) Their kids, my grandsons are Jews. When I am in their home I participate in their little Shabbat ritual with the candles, the wine and the bread. They are as sincere about their faith as I am in mine (I am christian). I have no problems with them! They are my children and grandchildren!

I would no more think to excuse someone hurting them than someone attacking my wife, my other kids or myself.

But I don't think that finding fault with Israeli policies (or indeed with the destructive actions of that nation over the years) is equivalent to antiSemitism.

To criticize Israeli policies and then find that you are labeled a Jew hater is disconcerting and fundamentally dishonest. I am fine with Jews. I wish they were by and large not so supportive of everything the Israeli government does.

Because it seems large majorities of Jews in the US do uncritically support Israel. Still there is a sizeable minority that is willing to observe carefully and discuss issues. I suppose one is Jason Kunin, whom I quoted above. And you may be another.

I know that Israel has a peace movement, one that has a fair understanding of the fundamental injustice to Palestinians and a willingness to attempt redress. But it seems that Arab atrocities against Israelis get more press...

[Josepha]

Thank you for your honesty with crimson. My point is the same as his. To criticize the Israeli govt and Israeli actions is fine. Tp criticize a "zionist agenda" sounds to me like a desire that Israel be wiped out entirely - since the "zionist agenda" is Israel.

I see two sides here - and both need to bend. The living conditions of the Palestinians is horrific - particularly now. But a unilateral Israeli disarmament would mean death to millions of Jews. Is this what you are supporting? If so, how can you not be anti-semitic?

And, BTW, the sabbath ceremonies are 5000+ years old - the Sheckhina "sabbath bride" is the female side of G-d. It's not all that little.


For what it's worth, my husband is arab - syrian/lebanese. We spent the last war rescuing his family members. I have close friends, and more important students, who are muslim. Don't make assumptions, and I won't either.



crimson, you are more willing to discuss these issues than many Jews I have met in discussion forums. Many just label me an antiSemite and refuse to discuss rationally.

But listen to this: My son is a converted Jew. He is 35 years of age and a solid member of his synagogue. His wife is ethnically one half Jewish on her father's side. She had to be converted, too, because Jewish ethnicity and religion is from the mother (go figure!) Their kids, my grandsons are Jews. When I am in their home I participate in their little Shabbat ritual with the candles, the wine and the bread. They are as sincere about their faith as I am in mine (I am christian). I have no problems with them! They are my children and grandchildren!

I would no more think to excuse someone hurting them than someone attacking my wife, my other kids or myself.

But I don't think that finding fault with Israeli policies (or indeed with the destructive actions of that nation over the years) is equivalent to antiSemitism.

To criticize Israeli policies and then find that you are labeled a Jew hater is disconcerting and fundamentally dishonest. I am fine with Jews. I wish they were by and large not so supportive of everything the Israeli government does.

Because it seems large majorities of Jews in the US do uncritically support Israel. Still there is a sizeable minority that is willing to observe carefully and discuss issues. I suppose one is Jason Kunin, whom I quoted above. And you may be another.

I know that Israel has a peace movement, one that has a fair understanding of the fundamental injustice to Palestinians and a willingness to attempt redress. But it seems that Arab atrocities against Israelis get more press...

[PatrickHenry]

Thank you for your honesty with crimson. My point is the same as his. To criticize the Israeli govt and Israeli actions is fine. Tp criticize a "zionist agenda" sounds to me like a desire that Israel be wiped out entirely - since the "zionist agenda" is Israel.The Zionist agenda is ethnic cleansing of all areas not cleared of everyone but Jews in the vicinity of Israel. If you think that criticism of that policy is wiping them out, then you need to read what I write more carefully. I don't see how I can argue with you, if you want to ascribe comments to me I AM NOT MAKING.

I see two sides here - and both need to bend. The living conditions of the Palestinians is horrific - particularly now. But a unilateral Israeli disarmament would mean death to millions of Jews. Is this what you are supporting? If so, how can you not be anti-semitic?Who said anything about unilateral Israeli disarmament? Like that'll ever happen. I am saying that AntiZionism and antiSemitism are not equivalent. I have acknowledged that Jew haters do use antiZionism as a stalking horse. Doesn't mean that criticism of Israel is off limits.

And, BTW, the sabbath ceremonies are 5000+ years old - the Sheckhina "sabbath bride" is the female side of G-d. It's not all that little.Their ceremony is little. It takes place on Friday evening before dinner and they don't make an enormous issue of it.For what it's worth, my husband is arab - syrian/lebanese. We spent the last war rescuing his family members. I have close friends, and more important students, who are muslim. Don't make assumptions, and I won't either.Good. You can start by not assuming that I am saying things I didn't say...

[Josepha]

Thank you for your honesty with crimson. My point is the same as his. To criticize the Israeli govt and Israeli actions is fine. Tp criticize a "zionist agenda" sounds to me like a desire that Israel be wiped out entirely - since the "zionist agenda" is Israel.The Zionist agenda is ethnic cleansing of all areas not cleared of everyone but Jews in the vicinity of Israel. If you think that criticism of that policy is wiping them out, then you need to read what I write more carefully. I don't see how I can argue with you, if you want to ascribe comments to me I AM NOT MAKING.

There are two things you can consider the "zionist agenda". One is the actual agenda, historical documents primarily written by Herzl during the Dreyfus case. In these documents the agenda is a Jewish state for which land purchases began a century before Israel was created - and therefore that agenda has been fulfilled.

The other "zionist agenda" would be a canard that is something similar to what the repubs refer to the "gay agenda." By saying it includes ethnic cleansing of all nonJews in the area - you are saying the Jews are deliberate mass murderers -tatement that is easily anti-semitic. It ignores the fact that Israel itself has no state religion and recognizes Jewish, Muslim, Xtian and Druse religious courts. There is no requirement to even practice a religion to be Israeli - and there are arab and palestinian citizens with full civil rights. Hardly ethnic cleansing of nonJews

I see two sides here - and both need to bend. The living conditions of the Palestinians is horrific - particularly now. But a unilateral Israeli disarmament would mean death to millions of Jews. Is this what you are supporting? If so, how can you not be anti-semitic?Who said anything about unilateral Israeli disarmament? Like that'll ever happen. I am saying that AntiZionism and antiSemitism are not equivalent. I have acknowledged that Jew haters do use antiZionism as a stalking horse. Doesn't mean that criticism of Israel is off limits.

Criticsm of Israel is fine - the govt or the people should be specified - unless you feel even the peace activists are evil and wrong. I criticize israel's govt for their treatment of the strangers in their midst, for closing the door to darfur refugees, for running a capitalist country that has a underclass of poverty stricken citizens, for fanaticism in several areas. I also see activists working to change the govt, and help the underclass - as well as create a just peace with all their neighbors. Are the activists zionists in your eyes? Is anyone who believes Israel has a right to exist a zionist - therefore a supporter of mass murder?

And, BTW, the sabbath ceremonies are 5000+ years old - the Sheckhina "sabbath bride" is the female side of G-d. It's not all that little.Their ceremony is little. It takes place on Friday evening before dinner and they don't make an enormous issue of it.For what it's worth, my husband is arab - syrian/lebanese. We spent the last war rescuing his family members. I have close friends, and more important students, who are muslim. Don't make assumptions, and I won't either.Good. You can start by not assuming that I am saying things I didn't say...


Cool - you can help by supporting your statements. Please show me some proof of a deliberate zionist agenda to kill all nonJews in the mideast. I will accept documentation - speeches - anything put out by the Israeli govt that is similar to the Hamas overt statement that there desire is to destroy israel and kill all the Jews would be fine.

[crimzonsol]

PatrickHenry, I think one thing that is leading to a poor debate about htings like this is that peoples perception of Anti-Zionism is that it is Anti-Semitic. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing anytime soon. I personally believe that you should say you disagree with Israeli Policy rather than say you are Anti-Zionist. People are more likely to react postively if you say you disagree with Israels policies.
People tend to react differently when you say there is a Zionist plot rather than something like I believe that the Israeli government has policies that I disagree with, one of the policies is the ethnic cleansing of Palestine... I believe that this will help you get your message across without the wrongfull accusation of being Anti-Semitic.

[PatrickHenry]

I think there is a Zionist plot...

It's just that the implementation is so widespread and diffuse that it is difficult to track all its threads. It is certainly a detriment to world peace and security. And ultimately, I think it will fail if its aim is security for Israel. I think it is actually making Israel and indeed, world Jewry, less secure and more targeted by whose agenda may not be "peace," but "justice."

IMHO, I don't think peace is possible to achieve without justice.

[jafar00]

Unfortunately Crimzonsol, people usually play the Anti Semitic card whenever someone mentions something negative when talking about Israel in the same sentence. It apparently absolves them of participating in constructive debate on the subject.

[PatrickHenry]

The Zioinst agenda extends far beyond the outrageous actual policies of Israel's government to support for such things as the full scale onslaught against defenseless Lebanon last summer.

[Uncle]

Josepha, I have to say that this conversation started really well and I was enjoying the discourse between yourself and PatrickHenry. I think Patrick has gone out of his way to not be "anti-semitic" and I applaud him for his efforts. It appears to me however that you started this topic to find an "anti-semite" to argue against. If this is the case then I will gladly take up that position. Only problem is, I am not anti-semitic. I could be except I don't have any problem with the 85% of Semites who are not jewish.

I oppose Israel and it's very existence. It is run by rogues and murderers and it's entire foundation has been built on ethnic cleansing, land theft, intimidation, murder and lies. If it were to cease to exist tomorrow I would rejoice its demise. The creation of the state of Israel has been one of the biggest crimes against humanity there ever was. Without an Israel there would be peace in the Middle East. Israel has violated so many human rights that it is unbelievable. Every time they are sanctioned by the U.N. their lap dog, (the U.S.) vetos those sanctions. They have free reign to do as they choose without concern for consequences because they have U.S. support. Because of Israel and her control over U.S. Mideast policies the U.S. is probably the second most hated country, (after Israel) in the world. Now Israel is preparing to get the U.S. into yet another war for Israels benefit - a war with Iran. And that war is going to be one hell of a lot tougher than the one in Iraq that Israel led/lied us into. And boys and girls, hang onto your panties when that war starts. I guarantee another World War and that is exactly what Israel wants. Israel has no less than 200 (maybe more than 400) nuclear weapons and they will use them with impunity in order to establish the "greater Israel" that they want.

Now. Call me an "anti-semite" 'cus it doesn't have any effect on me.

[crimzonsol]

Now. Call me an "anti-semite" 'cus it doesn't have any effect on me.


k, you are an Anti-Semite.;)

I don't see anything in your posts here that would make me believe that you are an Anti-Semite. I would have to say that you have valid points, but no real solution that could be implemented in the real world. The only way you could get what you want would be to eliminate 2/3 of the world population.

[PatrickHenry]

Only problem is, I am not anti-semitic. I could be except I don't have any problem with the 85% of Semites who are not jewish..
I have a problem with this...I assume you mean you oppose the 15% who ARE Jews. And that's just wrong, because not all Jews support the policies of Israel...

That really does make you an antiSemite, in the accepted meaning of that word...

[Pogo]

What is the line between them? I read about zionist agenda, zionist control of the media, zionist plots, and I can't help but think that these are the same canards spread about jews for centuries. I'm not thrilled with the govt of Israel, any more than I am thrilled with Bush - but I'm not sure where the line is drawn between these two. Perhaps part of the problem is the acceptance that any jew in the world - regardless of their stand on israel - is an accepted target of anti-zionist attacks. Another part is that it's easy to dislike Bush, yet still believe that america deserves to exist.
To whatever extent that this is a problem, I would say that Zionism is the primary catalyst.

Perhaps you're not aware but Theodor Herzl sent two rabbis to Palestine to investigate it's suitability for becoming a Jewish homeland. Some time after arriving in Palestine the rabbis cabled back that the bride was indeed beautiful but was already married. Unfortunately, they chose to endeavor to steal her away, and the negative consequences of that fateful decision continue to worsen.

[Uncle]

Only problem is, I am not anti-semitic. I could be except I don't have any problem with the 85% of Semites who are not jewish..
I have a problem with this...I assume you mean you oppose the 15% who ARE Jews. And that's just wrong, because not all Jews support the policies of Israel...

That really does make you an antiSemite, in the accepted meaning of that word...

I was using the word "Semite" loosely because the majority of todays jews came from Khazar and took up the jewish religion and are not of the seed line of the original jews. Most of these are the zionist jews. But you are right in that I am an anti-semite in the politically correct way in which the word is used today, (where we are suppose to ignore all other semitic peoples and only recognize "jews").

True also that a good number of jews are anti-Israel. But they are anti Israel for one reason only and that is that they believe their messiah will not come if they have their own country. They believe they are suppose to be without a land of their own until their messiah arrives. Few oppose the atrocities Israel inflicts on the Palestinians. Like all jews they are only concerned with their futures and their safety.

The time is coming boys and girls that I will probably go to jail for the things I say against Israel, jews and the new world religion known as the 'holocaust'. Don't doubt me. These words I type here and speak publicly are considered 'hate crimes' in many European countries and Canada and they are quickly become hate crimes here. They'll get me for "racial intimidation", "defaming the dead" or some other crap. But until then I am going to keep speaking out against them and damn the consequences. Because if I don't speak out then who the hell will? Who is behind this push for "hate crimes" laws, (more than we already have)? I'll tell you - it is jEWS! Organizations such as the ADL, the SPLC, and a whole litany of others. You doubt me? You think I have gone crazy? Do a search and see. Who do you think is behind the total destruction of Christianity? Again - jEWS! Doubt me? Look behind every suit brought against public display of anything Christian and you will find - jEWS! Who was behind removing school prayers? Yeah, you got it - jEWS! And that is not even the tip of the iceberg, believe me.

Look up these names: Ernst Zundel and David Irving. See why Zundel is still in prison today in Germany after being extradited from the U.S. to Canada for "hate crimes" and then to Germany for "hate crimes". They questioned the "holocaust" and so have been jailed for it. But they aren't the only ones, hundreds, if not thousands have gone before them. Why is this? For questioning history you go to prison? Not really. Only if you question jewish history do you go to prison. And don't fool yourselves, Bush is just a mouth piece for AIPAC and his other zionist/jewish masters. And they are the ones who are making the laws and decisions in this country. Not congress. But zionist jews. And I can prove this to you.

Correct me if I am wrong here. The economy is in a major downward spiral with NO chance of recovery. We are possibly going to see a crash as early as the end of this month. The jew bankers who created and own the Federal Reserve Bank, (an illegal criminal enterprise), have been pumping billions of dollars into the economy. Since this money has no actual value, (it is not backed by precious metals or anything else) every dollar they print reduces the value of the dollars you have in your pocket, bank account, under your bed or wherever you keep it. If you are smart, right now you will go out and buy all the precious metals you can get your hands on because real soon your dollars are going to be worth nada, nothing, zilch. There are predictions that this crash could happen as early as the next two weeks.

Once the stock market crashes Bush and his handlers are going to do the following three things right away: 1.) Declare martial law. 2.) Attack Iran. 3.) Reinstate the draft. And there is a fourth possible act that is going to take place: A major attack on American soil. It will be a false flag operation, but it will be so major that the blowing up of the WTC will pail in comparison. The order is not relevant. All three (four?)are going to happen.

Why are these things (and more) going to happen? Because Israel needs the U.S. to wipe Iran, Iraq, Syria and others off the map so that they can have their "greater Israel". For you so called Christians reading this realize there is an actual place known as Armageddon. Look it up and see where it is located. If you don't already know, you might be surprised.

Anti-semite? You bet ya.

[crimzonsol]

I was using the word "Semite" loosely because the majority of todays jews came from Khazar and took up the jewish religion and are not of the seed line of the original jews. Most of these are the zionist jews. But you are right in that I am an anti-semite in the politically correct way in which the word is used today, (where we are suppose to ignore all other semitic peoples and only recognize "jews").

True also that a good number of jews are anti-Israel. But they are anti Israel for one reason only and that is that they believe their messiah will not come if they have their own country. They believe they are suppose to be without a land of their own until their messiah arrives. Few oppose the atrocities Israel inflicts on the Palestinians. Like all jews they are only concerned with their futures and their safety.

The time is coming boys and girls that I will probably go to jail for the things I say against Israel, jews and the new world religion known as the 'holocaust'. Don't doubt me. These words I type here and speak publicly are considered 'hate crimes' in many European countries and Canada and they are quickly become hate crimes here. They'll get me for "racial intimidation", "defaming the dead" or some other crap. But until then I am going to keep speaking out against them and damn the consequences. Because if I don't speak out then who the hell will? Who is behind this push for "hate crimes" laws, (more than we already have)? I'll tell you - it is jEWS! Organizations such as the ADL, the SPLC, and a whole litany of others. You doubt me? You think I have gone crazy? Do a search and see. Who do you think is behind the total destruction of Christianity? Again - jEWS! Doubt me? Look behind every suit brought against public display of anything Christian and you will find - jEWS! Who was behind removing school prayers? Yeah, you got it - jEWS! And that is not even the tip of the iceberg, believe me.

Look up these names: Ernst Zundel and David Irving. See why Zundel is still in prison today in Germany after being extradited from the U.S. to Canada for "hate crimes" and then to Germany for "hate crimes". They questioned the "holocaust" and so have been jailed for it. But they aren't the only ones, hundreds, if not thousands have gone before them. Why is this? For questioning history you go to prison? Not really. Only if you question jewish history do you go to prison. And don't fool yourselves, Bush is just a mouth piece for AIPAC and his other zionist/jewish masters. And they are the ones who are making the laws and decisions in this country. Not congress. But zionist jews. And I can prove this to you.

Correct me if I am wrong here. The economy is in a major downward spiral with NO chance of recovery. We are possibly going to see a crash as early as the end of this month. The jew bankers who created and own the Federal Reserve Bank, (an illegal criminal enterprise), have been pumping billions of dollars into the economy. Since this money has no actual value, (it is not backed by precious metals or anything else) every dollar they print reduces the value of the dollars you have in your pocket, bank account, under your bed or wherever you keep it. If you are smart, right now you will go out and buy all the precious metals you can get your hands on because real soon your dollars are going to be worth nada, nothing, zilch. There are predictions that this crash could happen as early as the next two weeks.

Once the stock market crashes Bush and his handlers are going to do the following three things right away: 1.) Declare martial law. 2.) Attack Iran. 3.) Reinstate the draft. And there is a fourth possible act that is going to take place: A major attack on American soil. It will be a false flag operation, but it will be so major that the blowing up of the WTC will pail in comparison. The order is not relevant. All three (four?)are going to happen.

Why are these things (and more) going to happen? Because Israel needs the U.S. to wipe Iran, Iraq, Syria and others off the map so that they can have their "greater Israel". For you so called Christians reading this realize there is an actual place known as Armageddon. Look it up and see where it is located. If you don't already know, you might be surprised.

Anti-semite? You bet ya.



An Anti-Semite thats not trying to kill me, can I show you off to all my friends?

Damn Fucking Capitalists. Those damn kykes we've been trying to kill for the past 5000 years won't just lie down and die. Moreover not only will they not die they are TRYING TO SURVIVE what is wrong with them?:P

Sorry couldn't resist.
Now on to my response.

Uncle, I AM JEWISH and I OPPOSE THE ISRAELIS ATEMPT TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE PALESTINE. My family lived in germany, want to know who survived, Grandmother, Mother and an Uncle out of My entire family. You have the right to question the holocaust, but If I may ask could you do it in a less aggressive manner. Thanks.

Now to explain thigns as I see them, which means that they are right


First, you claim that most Jews that are against Israel do so for religious reasons. I think that the most vocal Jews against Israel oppose Israel for religious reasons, as always the spolight is on the worst of the lot. Many Jews support Israel for the same reason I do, I'll be damned if something like the holocaust happens again and I have no wheres to keep my Family safe. Some May agree with the Israelis governments stance, others like me want the government to change its stance, and we are trying to do it, but because Israel is a DEMOCRACY we have to convince the people. I personally try to get Anti-Zionists support for our cause.

Second, if you get arrested you know the best laywers are Jewish.:P
Seriously If you get arrested because of what you say, you can expect me to attend the protests that follow it. I will not stand for people to be deinied the right to question.

Third, I cannot respond to the rest of your claims due to lack of knowledge on the subject.

[Uncle]

I was using the word "Semite" loosely because the majority of todays jews came from Khazar and took up the jewish religion and are not of the seed line of the original jews. Most of these are the zionist jews. But you are right in that I am an anti-semite in the politically correct way in which the word is used today, (where we are suppose to ignore all other semitic peoples and only recognize "jews").

True also that a good number of jews are anti-Israel. But they are anti Israel for one reason only and that is that they believe their messiah will not come if they have their own country. They believe they are suppose to be without a land of their own until their messiah arrives. Few oppose the atrocities Israel inflicts on the Palestinians. Like all jews they are only concerned with their futures and their safety.

The time is coming boys and girls that I will probably go to jail for the things I say against Israel, jews and the new world religion known as the 'holocaust'. Don't doubt me. These words I type here and speak publicly are considered 'hate crimes' in many European countries and Canada and they are quickly become hate crimes here. They'll get me for "racial intimidation", "defaming the dead" or some other crap. But until then I am going to keep speaking out against them and damn the consequences. Because if I don't speak out then who the hell will? Who is behind this push for "hate crimes" laws, (more than we already have)? I'll tell you - it is jEWS! Organizations such as the ADL, the SPLC, and a whole litany of others. You doubt me? You think I have gone crazy? Do a search and see. Who do you think is behind the total destruction of Christianity? Again - jEWS! Doubt me? Look behind every suit brought against public display of anything Christian and you will find - jEWS! Who was behind removing school prayers? Yeah, you got it - jEWS! And that is not even the tip of the iceberg, believe me.

Look up these names: Ernst Zundel and David Irving. See why Zundel is still in prison today in Germany after being extradited from the U.S. to Canada for "hate crimes" and then to Germany for "hate crimes". They questioned the "holocaust" and so have been jailed for it. But they aren't the only ones, hundreds, if not thousands have gone before them. Why is this? For questioning history you go to prison? Not really. Only if you question jewish history do you go to prison. And don't fool yourselves, Bush is just a mouth piece for AIPAC and his other zionist/jewish masters. And they are the ones who are making the laws and decisions in this country. Not congress. But zionist jews. And I can prove this to you.

Correct me if I am wrong here. The economy is in a major downward spiral with NO chance of recovery. We are possibly going to see a crash as early as the end of this month. The jew bankers who created and own the Federal Reserve Bank, (an illegal criminal enterprise), have been pumping billions of dollars into the economy. Since this money has no actual value, (it is not backed by precious metals or anything else) every dollar they print reduces the value of the dollars you have in your pocket, bank account, under your bed or wherever you keep it. If you are smart, right now you will go out and buy all the precious metals you can get your hands on because real soon your dollars are going to be worth nada, nothing, zilch. There are predictions that this crash could happen as early as the next two weeks.

Once the stock market crashes Bush and his handlers are going to do the following three things right away: 1.) Declare martial law. 2.) Attack Iran. 3.) Reinstate the draft. And there is a fourth possible act that is going to take place: A major attack on American soil. It will be a false flag operation, but it will be so major that the blowing up of the WTC will pail in comparison. The order is not relevant. All three (four?)are going to happen.

Why are these things (and more) going to happen? Because Israel needs the U.S. to wipe Iran, Iraq, Syria and others off the map so that they can have their "greater Israel". For you so called Christians reading this realize there is an actual place known as Armageddon. Look it up and see where it is located. If you don't already know, you might be surprised.

Anti-semite? You bet ya.



An Anti-Semite thats not trying to kill me, can I show you off to all my friends? Ofcourse you may - providing your friends aren't ADL, JDL, SPLC or one of the other antiWhite, criminal, jewish hate groups.

Damn Fucking Capitalists. Those damn kykes we've been trying to kill for the past 5000 years won't just lie down and die. Moreover not only will they not die they are TRYING TO SURVIVE what is wrong with them?:PYeah, them damn Nazis, neo-Nazis and wannabe Nazis! What's wrong with them wanting to be separate from jews? Don't they know the jew is the goyims master and they should serve the jew as the Talmud says? After all, the jew is "Gods chosen"! God never said that, but who do these Nazis, (etc.) think they are to question the wisdom of jewish superior intellect? The "cattle" of this world need to peacefully go to their slaughter as they are meant to! And what the hell is wrong with communism anyway? It was good enough for Lenin, so it is good enough for the goys!:evil: [/b]

Sorry couldn't resist. Me either
Now on to my response.

Uncle, I AM JEWISH and I OPPOSE THE ISRAELIS ATEMPT TO ETHNICALLY CLEANSE PALESTINE. My family lived in germany, want to know who survived, Grandmother, Mother and an Uncle out of My entire family. You have the right to question the holocaust, but If I may ask could you do it in a less aggressive manner. Thanks. I will make every effort to respect your wishes. My intent is rarely to insult or harm people. My desire is only to share my ideas, beliefs and opinions and have intelligent discourse with those whom I communicate. My ideas, opinions and beliefs our mine alone and rather right or wrong I will defend them until they are proved unworthy of defense. Sorry that you lost so many in WWII. It was a terrible and tragic war that cost the world as many as 75 million people from many lands. I lost two uncles in that war and had 3 come back "not the same". My mother worked in a munitions plant building bombs in Ohio (wonder how many innocent Germans and Japanese died from them....); My father was released from duty while still in basic for medical reasons. I thank my God that my father was spared from having to suffer that war. I also lost family in every war since the War Between the States, ('twas never a 'civil war'), (at least 13 men on the Confederate side and 1 on the Union side). (I came from fighting stock and maybe that is why I fight so hard in my every endeavor - my Scotch/Irish blood may work in my favor also). So I think that, through their deaths, they have paid for my right to speak freely concerning my sentiments and opinions rather those sentiments and opinions be against this illegal government, the destruction of my race, your "holocaust", the Constitution, other races, or whatever I choose without censor by anyone. If what I have to say hurts peoples sensitivities then so be it. Adults should be able to take a little pain from time to time and children need to learn that pain is just another part of life. Come to terms with it. I have twice been accused of killing people. When I was 19 I was arrested twice for investigation of murder and locked up. In those days you spent 72 hours while they "investigated" you. On the second arrest, and just prior to the third day, I was assured that charges would be put against me on that final day. Fortunately the actual killers turned themselves in the next morning. The second time I was in prison and 25 years old. An individual got his throat slit and I was the prime suspect. I spent 14 months in the hole, (administrative segregation). It took them that long to determine that I was locked in my cell at the time of the killing. Why am I telling you this as well as my personal family history? I am telling you these things to illustrate that life is not fair. I do not lament my time past or the transgressions put upon me then or now - I suck it up, thank my God that it wasn't worse, and I continue my life. Just call it an 'illustrative education'.

Now to explain thigns as I see them, which means that they are right


First, you claim that most Jews that are against Israel do so for religious reasons. I think that the most vocal Jews against Israel oppose Israel for religious reasons, as always the spolight is on the worst of the lot. ALL religious jews who oppose zionist Israel do so for religious reasons.All others would be atheist jews. Many Jews support Israel for the same reason I do, I'll be damned if something like the holocaust happens again and I have no wheres to keep my Family safe. If you support Israel, want to keep your family safe from "another holocaust" and want to change Israels stance, then why are you not living in Israel where you have a better chance of accomplishing all three? That would be the logical thing to do. Don't you think? Some May agree with the Israelis governments stance, others like me want the government to change its stance, and we are trying to do it, but because Israel is a DEMOCRACY we have to convince the people. Israel is not a democracy. It is a racist, apartheid state with an agenda that is projews only. I personally try to get Anti-Zionists support for our cause.

Second, if you get arrested you know the best laywers are Jewish.:P :clapper: back at you.
Seriously If you get arrested because of what you say, you can expect me to attend the protests that follow it. I will not stand for people to be deinied the right to question. Thank you. But are you sure you would want to be seen in this group, or one similar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f8Nl1R04-c&mode=related&search=
Third, I cannot respond to the rest of your claims due to lack of knowledge on the subject.

Thanks for your time and your post. May you be blessed with goodness and happiness all of your days and may you and yours find peace and tranquility without me and mine having to suffer for it. May the day come that you and I will no longer have animosity to each other and may my God one day be yours.

[crimzonsol]

So I think that, through their deaths, they have paid for my right to speak freely concerning my sentiments and opinions rather those sentiments and opinions be against this illegal government, the destruction of my race, your "holocaust", the Constitution, other races, or whatever I choose without censor by anyone.


Nobody has to earn their right to speak freely, we all have it.


If you support Israel, want to keep your family safe from "another holocaust" and want to change Israels stance, then why are you not living in Israel where you have a better chance of accomplishing all three? That would be the logical thing to do. Don't you think?


Yes I do, unfortunately I have other commitments that mean I have to stay hear. How ever I go to Israel Most Summers, I have some friends there I stay with and I do the best I can. Another reason would be that If Israel realises that the people of the United Stated would support it more if it Abjured for and fixed the Problems it has created. Israel would be more inclined to do it.


Israel is not a democracy. It is a racist, apartheid state with an agenda that is projews only.


Its a racist, sorta apartheid state that is pro-Jews Because 76% of its poulation is Jewish. Assuming what you say is true, before I believe you I am going to need to see some proof.


I have twice been accused of killing people.


You wouldn't happen to have a bald head, wear a leather jacket and construction boots would you?

I have been accused of Assualt with a Deadly Weapon and Atempted Murder after I fought with a Skinhead that was going after my sister. Don't try to tell me that life is unfair, I learned that after my best friend was killed by Skinheads for being Jewish.


Thank you. But are you sure you would want to be seen in this group, or one similar:


Maybe I'll skip that part and be your laywer. That would really send the press in to a frenzy, I can just see it now:

Kyke Defends Nazi
:)




May you be blessed with goodness and happiness all of your days and may you and yours find peace and tranquility without me and mine having to suffer for it.


The same unto you, but I would settle for people not trying kill me.

[tony mitra]

Any of you guys heard of Mr. Douglas Reed? He was a well known news reporter and author from London, and published a lot of books on contemporary politics in the 1940s and 1950s, published in many languages. He also spent some time in the US, but I do not know the details.

Apparently he wrote some book about Zionism, in the 1950s which was supposed to be against Zionism and some sort of a conspiracy theory based on presumed plans to control the world. I am not sure because I haven't read the book and only repeating what I read about it.

Anyhow, he came up against a brick wall, trying to publish that book. Nobody would touch it, in any language. Not only that, the rest of his books also started disappearing, and his name was struck off from most lists. He got labeled as an anti-semite and more or less vanished from record anywhere.

It is reported that he migrated out of frustration to South Africa (that time under an Apertheid regime) and lived the rest of his life quietly, and never wrote again, except once at the end of his life on some trivial local issue of South Africa. he reportedly died sometime in the 1970s of 1980s.

At one time, I had tried to search out his pre-zionism books, through Amazon, but could not find any. That was some time ago.

Reading this thread, somehow his name came back to memory. If his story is true, that he vanished from the world of authors and publishers and news media and reporters - vanished completely, just because he wrote something presumably scathing or conspiratorial against the zionists - if all that is true, then perhaps this would be an example of the power of the zionism supporters in control of world media. Mind it, he reportedly vanished not just from the English printed media, but even from French, Spanish and everything else.

I do not really know if it is at all possible for one group or another to have that much control over printed media globally. Today, people like Noam Chomsky has a lot of books critical about Israel that are freely available everywhere.

Anyhow, wonder if anyone heard about Mr. Douglas Reed, or read any of his books.

Cheers
Tony