libertarianism = communism

[flaja]

Aren’t libertarianism and communism one and the same thing? If you compare communism, as outlined in the Communist Manifesto and the most extreme form of libertarianism they have 6 positions in common while they are polar opposites on only 4 positions.

Polar opposites: 4 positions

Property ownership: libertarians believe all property must be private while communists believe all property must be public.

Individual’s obligation to society: libertarians believe that an individual has no obligation to society while communists believe that an individual has total obligation to society.

Society’s obligation to the individual: libertarians believe that society has no obligation to the individual while communists believe that society has total obligation to the individual.

Material gain for the individual: libertarians believe in maximum material gain for the individual that can be achieve by unregulated market forces even if the result is extremes of wealth and poverty while communists believe in no material gain for the individual in order to maintain equality for all individuals.


Common position on the left: 5 positions

Traditional social institutions (marriage, family, church et cetera): libertarians place no importance on traditional social institutions- they must not exist because they serve to restrict the personal freedom of the individual by imposing societal norms on them; communists reject traditional social institutions because they serve as tools of oppression.

Economic markets: libertarians are opposed to any and all external regulation of economic markets while communists are opposed to such regulation because markets wouldn’t exist in a communist setting.

Economic planning: libertarians believe in total centralized planning by market forces (the likes of Wal-Mart and Home Depot can dictate what will be produced and consumed) while communists want central planning according to the dictates of the proletariat.

Human nature: libertarians and communists both have the least understanding of human nature; libertarians believe humans will fairly complete with each other to maximize their individual self-interests while communists believe that humans will freely cooperate with each other in order to maximize their collective self-interests.

Nation state: libertarian and communists both believe that the nation state is unnecessary and it wouldn’t exist in either an ideal libertarian setting or an ideal communist setting.

Common position on the right: 1 position

Government: libertarians believe that government is merely a source of oppression and it officially would not exist in a libertarian setting, i.e., a state of nature, but it is actually embodied in the “free market”; communists believe that government is merely a tool whereby the bourgeoisie oppresses the proletariat. Government officially does not exist in a communist setting, but it is actually embodied in the proletariat, i.e., mob rule.

[Deadshot]

Those 4 polar opposites are a pretty big difference don't you think?

To be honest if you're going to start this type of comparrison couldn't you compare those gay that wish to be married and those who are married?

Polar opposites:

1. Gay people are Gay, married people aren't.

2. Gay people ALWAYS have sodomy sex, married people only have sodomy sex on occassion.

So Gay people are just like everybody else...right?

[micfranklin]

Wouldn't a libertarian government be one where government is minimal, whereas there'd be more government in communism?

[ClayBarham]

Communists believe community interests are superior to self-interests. Libertarians believe self-interests are superior to community interests. For those interested in the comparisons, Google Frederick Bastiat's essay, To The Youth Of France, written over 150 years ago,

[ViolaLee]

How can two ideologies be one and the same when they have 4 polar opposite ideals?

[April15]

To me communism is not so much a government entity but a way of life. I lived in commune's and found them very rewarding and fulfilling. You were free to do what you wished but helped those who failed at their endeavors.
To this day I still help those who have not been successful.

[ttriber]

To me communism is not so much a government entity but a way of life. I lived in commune's and found them very rewarding and fulfilling. You were free to do what you wished but helped those who failed at their endeavors.
To this day I still help those who have not been successful.


Kind of Curious where did you live April since you claim it was rewarding and fulfilling but blind to the things that were happening to your people. Communism and Libertarianism I don't think are the same one believes smaller government the other one dictates government. Nothing Similiar. Communism sounds great on paper but when it's put to action it is despicable. I will not stand here for somebody to tell me they lived in a Communist country and loved it. Maybe you were happy because the heads of government knew you so that is why you were living so happily.

[flaja]

Wouldn't a libertarian government be one where government is minimal, whereas there'd be more government in communism?


There are likely as many different forms of libertarianism as there are people confessing to be a libertarian. In the same vein there are people that will insist that socialism and communism are one and the same thing. However, the Communist Manifesto gives us a standard model for what communism is supposed to be, and what Marx proposed is very dissimilar to what socialism has ever been in practice. I am using the Communist Manifesto as the communist standard. However, (as far as I know) there is nothing in writing that can give us a standard for libertarianism. I am using what I take as the most extreme libertarian position (capitalist-anarchist) as the standard model for comparison.

[April15]

To me communism is not so much a government entity but a way of life. I lived in commune's and found them very rewarding and fulfilling. You were free to do what you wished but helped those who failed at their endeavors.
To this day I still help those who have not been successful.


Kind of Curious where did you live April since you claim it was rewarding and fulfilling but blind to the things that were happening to your people. Communism and Libertarianism I don't think are the same one believes smaller government the other one dictates government. Nothing Similiar. Communism sounds great on paper but when it's put to action it is despicable. I will not stand here for somebody to tell me they lived in a Communist country and loved it. Maybe you were happy because the heads of government knew you so that is why you were living so happily.

I said communes, as in hippy days of the 50' and 60's in the hills of California. But I do still give to those who need without reservation.

[flaja]

How can two ideologies be one and the same when they have 4 polar opposite ideals?


I agree the polar opposite are a problem for classification purposes, but at the same time the similarities make it impossible to adequately place libertarians and communists on the political spectrum.[hr]

To me communism is not so much a government entity but a way of life. I lived in commune's and found them very rewarding and fulfilling. You were free to do what you wished but helped those who failed at their endeavors.
To this day I still help those who have not been successful.


Kind of Curious where did you live April since you claim it was rewarding and fulfilling but blind to the things that were happening to your people. Communism and Libertarianism I don't think are the same one believes smaller government the other one dictates government. Nothing Similiar. Communism sounds great on paper but when it's put to action it is despicable. I will not stand here for somebody to tell me they lived in a Communist country and loved it. Maybe you were happy because the heads of government knew you so that is why you were living so happily.


Any society that has a government cannot be communist as per the Communist Manifesto. And the model for libertarianism that I am using is the most extreme, i.e., anarchist, strain.

[PatrickHenry]

This is about the most ignorant thing I have seen from you, flaja. The two systems are so dissimilar that it causes me to doubt your sanity.

The US system of mixed market, enormous military spending and socialized assistance is much more akin to the commies.

[Buck Laser]

Flaja seems to belong to the Red Queen School of Political Science--that is, a word means to him whatever he wants to mean, and never mind what the common or correct usage is. Several other posters seem to espouse this theory as well--those who use "neoliberal" with their own imaginary definitions, and one who tries to trace American history back to a single event.

Libertarianism is more akin to anarchy than to communism: the only possible link I can see is the Marxian dream that government will one day "wither away" as the communist ideal takes hold in people's hearts.

[ClayBarham]

A commune implies you live in it by choice, without the burley dictator whipping on you when you do what you are told to do.

Flaja: Capitalism is a term created by those folks of the Marxist persuasion, not by those who grew a free market without any idea there would be an economic explanation for their trades.

[flaja]

Flaja seems to belong to the Red Queen School of Political Science--that is, a word means to him whatever he wants to mean, and never mind what the common or correct usage is.

Have you or any other of your ilk here even tried to document that the similarites between libertarianism and communism, which I pointed out, don’t exist?[hr]
A commune implies you live in it by choice, without the burley dictator whipping on you when you do what you are told to do.

Flaja: Capitalism is a term created by those folks of the Marxist persuasion, not by those who grew a free market without any idea there would be an economic explanation for their trades.


Again you erroneously make the assumption that communism is identical to socialism. It is not. They are not the same thing. You claim to be a writer of books, but yet you cannot grasp such a simple concept.

[Buck Laser]

Flaja seems to belong to the Red Queen School of Political Science--that is, a word means to him whatever he wants to mean, and never mind what the common or correct usage is.

Have you or any other of your ilk here even tried to document that the similarites between libertarianism and communism, which I pointed out, don’t exist?

I just fuckin' LOVE being part of an ILK! :evil:

And no, I haven't bothered checking it out, because the differences are pretty well self evident, even if you don't think so. And you say you teach school? THAT'S scary! :scared:

[ViolaLee]

flaja, your posts don't even make any sense.

April, you're my kinda girl :D

[April15]

flaja, your posts don't even make any sense.

April, you're my kinda girl :D
I hate to inform you my sex is different than the moniker implies![hr]
A commune implies you live in it by choice, without the burley dictator whipping on you when you do what you are told to do.

And the truest form of communism is to live in a commune. A dictatorship can use any wording to describe it's political leanings. True communism is non political.
On a large scale it has never been tried.

[NortheastCynic]

Wow.

Individual’s obligation to society: libertarians believe that an individual has no obligation to society while communists believe that an individual has total obligation to society.Incorrect, libertarians do not believe that individuals should be forced into social obligations.
Material gain for the individual: libertarians believe in maximum material gain for the individual that can be achieve by unregulated market forces even if the result is extremes of wealth and poverty while communists believe in no material gain for the individual in order to maintain equality for all individuals.This is inaccurate. Libertarians believe that individuals should be free to maximize their material gain; libertarians do not claim that doing so consitutes a moral lifestyle, only that individuals should be free to pursue such a lifestyle [or any other lifestyle, for that matter].

Traditional social institutions (marriage, family, church et cetera): libertarians place no importance on traditional social institutions- they must not exist because they serve to restrict the personal freedom of the individual by imposing societal norms on them; communists reject traditional social institutions because they serve as tools of oppression.This is inaccurate. Libertarians do not believe that 'norms' should be forced upon others. I value the concept of traditional marriage, which is part of the reasons why I won't marry a man [beyond my not being homosexual], however I do not want my moral view forced on everyone else. Libertarians separate their moral values from their political views; it is possible to think something is immoral without wanting your moral belief forced on others, understanding this is key to understanding libertarianism.

Economic planning: libertarians believe in total centralized planning by market forces (the likes of Wal-Mart and Home Depot can dictate what will be produced and consumed) while communists want central planning according to the dictates of the proletariat.This is inaccurate. Libertarians do not believe in centralized planning, they believe in the lack of coercive planning. The quote above relies on the theory that large corporations will essentially constitute a new state, I do not buy into that theory.

-NC

[moses2792796]

How can two ideologies be one and the same when they have 4 polar opposite ideals?


Exactly what I was thinking.