Would you support the regime that allowed this?

[flaja]

Who would support the regime that allowed this to happen?

[lily]

I think it's safe to say no one would....but without anymore information, I guess the discussion is pretty much limited.

[Buck Laser]

In case anyone is interested, that's a picture of a POW from our own civil war. I forget whose prison he was in. The fact is that both sides let their prisoners starve.

[flaja]

In case anyone is interested, that's a picture of a POW from our own civil war. I forget whose prison he was in. The fact is that both sides let their prisoners starve.


You have documentation that the United States allowed prisoners taken during the rebellion to starve?

The photo is from the CSA prison at Andersonville, Georgia. I posted it here to what the sesesh would say about it.

Because of the state of America’s education system, both pubic and for the most part private as well, I didn’t think anyone here would recognize this photo. Your education must be above average.

BTW: The CSA officials at Andersonville organized a mock election in 1864 in hopes that a poor showing for President Lincoln would make the Union look bad. President Lincoln received 97% of the vote.

[Buck Laser]

In case anyone is interested, that's a picture of a POW from our own civil war. I forget whose prison he was in. The fact is that both sides let their prisoners starve.

Because of the state of America’s education system, both pubic and for the most part private as well, I didn’t think anyone here would recognize this photo. Your education must be above average.

Flaja, you underestimate your audience, and you're putting a bad rap on public education. Frankly, I wouldn't want members of my family seeing pictures like this without getting a fuller context than the picture itself. Stuff like that should be covered perhaps at the college level, not in the public schools.

As to documenting the Union's mistreatment of prisoners, it'll take some time, because I have other things to do.

My education, as everyone's should be, is ongoing. The day is a loss if I don't learn something new every day.

[AnnEsthesia]

Here you go:

H
Prison Camps

After two years each side had taken thousands of prisoners. In the beginning most prisoners were exchanged and returned to their armies after a few months, but after 1863 far fewer exchanges were taking place. One reason for decreasing exchanges was the South’s treatment of Northern black soldiers. The South regarded black soldiers as runaway slaves and refused to treat them as legitimate prisoners of war. Confederate policy was to execute or enslave them. Although the South did not systematically carry out this order, the North was reluctant to continue prisoner exchanges. In April 1864 Grant stopped almost all exchanges because the South, with fewer soldiers, had more to lose. The North and its superior manpower could better withstand the loss of its troops.

The treatment of prisoners has been the subject of heated argument. Union prisoners suffered greatly in such Confederate camps as Andersonville Prison in Georgia, and Confederate prisoners suffered in such Union prisons as Camp Douglas, Illinois. In both sections the death rate among prisoners was appalling. Prison conditions, rather than willful mistreatment, caused most of the deaths. Poorly clothed Southern soldiers could not stand the harsh Northern winters. Northern soldiers suffered from the intense heat of Southern summers. Even when the supply of food was sufficient, the food was of poor quality. In general, prisoners received the same rations as the troops who guarded them. However, the fact that deplorable sanitary conditions resulted from ignorance and overcrowding, rather than from malice, did not make their effect less deadly

from: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567354_11/Civil_War.html

[NortheastCynic]

I disagree Buck. I recognized the picture immediately but not because of anything I was taught in school, only through personal research, etc. Public schools show equally graphic pictures of Holocaust survivors. I see no reason why images such as the above should not be included.

-NC

[flaja]

Here you go:

H
Prison Camps

After two years each side had taken thousands of prisoners. In the beginning most prisoners were exchanged and returned to their armies after a few months, but after 1863 far fewer exchanges were taking place. One reason for decreasing exchanges was the South’s treatment of Northern black soldiers. The South regarded black soldiers as runaway slaves and refused to treat them as legitimate prisoners of war. Confederate policy was to execute or enslave them. Although the South did not systematically carry out this order, the North was reluctant to continue prisoner exchanges. In April 1864 Grant stopped almost all exchanges because the South, with fewer soldiers, had more to lose. The North and its superior manpower could better withstand the loss of its troops.

The treatment of prisoners has been the subject of heated argument. Union prisoners suffered greatly in such Confederate camps as Andersonville Prison in Georgia, and Confederate prisoners suffered in such Union prisons as Camp Douglas, Illinois. In both sections the death rate among prisoners was appalling. Prison conditions, rather than willful mistreatment, caused most of the deaths. Poorly clothed Southern soldiers could not stand the harsh Northern winters. Northern soldiers suffered from the intense heat of Southern summers. Even when the supply of food was sufficient, the food was of poor quality. In general, prisoners received the same rations as the troops who guarded them. However, the fact that deplorable sanitary conditions resulted from ignorance and overcrowding, rather than from malice, did not make their effect less deadly

from: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567354_11/Civil_War.html


The only Confederate to be hanged after the Civil War was the Swiss-born commandant of Andersonville, Henry Wirz. This commandant intentionally ordered his guards to abuse the Union POWs and he intentionally withheld food from the prisoners and in general he did nothing to alleviate the conditions of the camp as other commandants, both north and south, tried to do.

Furthermore, if conditions in northern prison camps were even remotely as bad as Andersonville, why is it that I have never seen photographs from these northern camps that are comparable to this photo from Andersonville?

[Truth_and_Power]

Is it a pattern that the invaded party is less merciful? I am not trying to make a point, just wondering.

[AnnEsthesia]

So you can only say that conditions were bad for Confederate POW's if they equaled the conditions at the worst Union prison? And you can only say prisoners were mistreated if there is a picture of it?

[Alonzo]

Buck beat me to it.

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.

There was also more sympathy for the south in the north, and often locals (primarily women) would give prisoners things.

[Buck Laser]

I disagree Buck. I recognized the picture immediately but not because of anything I was taught in school, only through personal research, etc. Public schools show equally graphic pictures of Holocaust survivors. I see no reason why images such as the above should not be included.
-NC

With me, I guess it's that such pictures are profoundly disturbing to me, regardless of the circumstances. When I saw Schindler's List some years back, it put me into a depression that lasted for a couple of weeks. I have the book from which the picture of the Andersonville prisoner was taken--I don't recall the title, but the Civil War was our first to be documented photographically.

But Flaja had a different agenda altogether--he seemed to hope he could surprise us as a prelude to a rant about how the schools don't teach anything anymore, which is mostly bullshit. I've been hearing this crap all my life, and I'm really sick and tired of it.

[lily]

But Flaja had a different agenda altogether--he seemed to hope he could surprise us as a prelude to a rant about how the schools don't teach anything anymore, which is mostly bullshit. I've been hearing this crap all my life, and I'm really sick and tired of it.


Well, then I'm glad I didn't dissapoint........but then I went to a Catholic school.

[Truth_and_Power]

Well on an honesty tip I don't recall ever seeing it or hearing about it. Public school in tallahassee. FYI.

[flaja]

Is it a pattern that the invaded party is less merciful? I am not trying to make a point, just wondering.


Invaded? You must be delusional. Even if secession were legal and even if the South had set up a legitimate country, it was the South that showed the first aggression- or have you forgotten Fort Sumter?[hr]
So you can only say that conditions were bad for Confederate POW's if they equaled the conditions at the worst Union prison? And you can only say prisoners were mistreated if there is a picture of it?


This is not what I said. I didn’t say that Confederate POWs didn’t suffer in northern POW camps. I am saying that the suffering likely wasn’t as bad as what Americans suffered in Confederate camps, and I am pointing out that some of the suffering in Andersonville was intentionally inflicted.[hr]
But Flaja had a different agenda altogether--he seemed to hope he could surprise us as a prelude to a rant about how the schools don't teach anything anymore,

Huh? Since you don't know me from Adam, what entitles you to explain my motives to others?[hr]
Well on an honesty tip I don't recall ever seeing it or hearing about it. Public school in tallahassee. FYI.


Likewise here. I likely saw this photo when I was in grade school- but because of my own reading. I had American History in 3 grades: 5th grade, 8th grade and 11th grade and I know that neither 5th nor 8th grade would have taken the time to discuss Civil War POWs and I cannot find any mention of Andersonville in my 11th grade AP textbook either. I took a college course on the history of the South and another course on the Civil War/Reconstruction Era, but I cannot recall any mention of Andersonville in them either.

[AnnEsthesia]

Psst, flaja, they were ALL Americans... they never actually formed their own country, so they were still Americans.. that is why it is called the American Civil War, not The American and Confederacy War.

[quiet man]

Psst, flaja, they were ALL Americans... they never actually formed their own country, so they were still Americans.. that is why it is called the American Civil War, not The American and Confederacy War.

they were pow's living in very deplorable conditions. this occurred during a "civil war" Americans fighting Americans, something similar has occurred in every war there has been on this planet. it hasn't made any difference what country or which people where in charge. it is something we have to deal with as a people. a very hard lesson to get.

[flaja]

Psst, flaja, they were ALL Americans... they never actually formed their own country, so they were still Americans.. that is why it is called the American Civil War, not The American and Confederacy War.


No. The Confederates were traitors, not Americans.

[AnnEsthesia]

Um, no, they were americans, even if you disliked them. Just like liberals are american, even if the neocons dislike them. Revisionism is not something to be applauded.

[Buck Laser]

But Flaja had a different agenda altogether--he seemed to hope he could surprise us as a prelude to a rant about how the schools don't teach anything anymore,

Huh? Since you don't know me from Adam, what entitles you to explain my motives to others?

Flaja, I said that because you got in a dig at public education in your first response--you didn't expect anyone to recognize the picture because public education is so bad. Tell me that isn't a dig at public education.

It may not have been your prime purpose, but you demonstrate an attitude here that I think is without any real basis in fact. And it doesn't make a hill of beans of difference whether I know you. You don't know me, either.

[flaja]

Um, no, they were americans, even if you disliked them. Just like liberals are american, even if the neocons dislike them. Revisionism is not something to be applauded.


You count traitors among your fellow countrymen?

[Buck Laser]

Um, no, they were americans, even if you disliked them. Just like liberals are american, even if the neocons dislike them. Revisionism is not something to be applauded.


You count traitors among your fellow countrymen?

I had ancestors on both sides in the civil war. I do not count any of them traitors. And I'll thank you to drop your assertion that they WERE traitors. I'm pretty sure some of them were horse's patoots, though. Patoots seem to be common in just about every area of the country.

Why are you pursuing this thread?

[flaja]

But Flaja had a different agenda altogether--he seemed to hope he could surprise us as a prelude to a rant about how the schools don't teach anything anymore,

Huh? Since you don't know me from Adam, what entitles you to explain my motives to others?

Flaja, I said that because you got in a dig at public education in your first response--you didn't expect anyone to recognize the picture because public education is so bad. Tell me that isn't a dig at public education.

It may not have been your prime purpose, but you demonstrate an attitude here that I think is without any real basis in fact. And it doesn't make a hill of beans of difference whether I know you. You don't know me, either.


What makes you think I am against public education? I graduated from a public college prep magnet school that is routinely listed among the nation’s top 10 public schools (Newsweek). I have served as a classroom teacher at 2 different private schools, which I found to be nothing but babysitting services for brats that cannot survive in public school.

But this does not mean that I think every public school is worth having or that every private school should be run out of business. There are very good and very bad in both.

If you would take a look at the private/public interest thread, you will see that I am in favor of establishing a national K-12 public school system- national curriculum and teacher qualification standards with a good deal of federal financial input, but each school would be managed by the parents/guardians of the students enrolled.

My comment regarding public schools here is in regards to the lack of time our public schools spend on teaching history.[hr]


Um, no, they were americans, even if you disliked them. Just like liberals are american, even if the neocons dislike them. Revisionism is not something to be applauded.


You count traitors among your fellow countrymen?

I had ancestors on both sides in the civil war. I do not count any of them traitors. And I'll thank you to drop your assertion that they WERE traitors. I'm pretty sure some of them were horse's patoots, though. Patoots seem to be common in just about every area of the country.

Why are you pursuing this thread?


I have at least 5 ancestors who served in Lee’s army. But since some parts of my family have lived in the South since before the Revolution and I have 1 ancestor that was a shareholder in the Virginia Company and a resident of the Jamestown Colony in the 1620s, I doubt that I have any ancestors who served in the U.S. Army during the rebellion.

The confederates who took up arms against my country committed treason based on the constitutional definition of treason. I don’t what else to call them but traitors.

I find it amazing that so-called conservatives can complain about what liberals are doing to this country, but then turn around and praise people who took up arms for the express purpose of destroying this country in the 1860s. If you believe that America is the greatest country on earth, you must condemn any and all efforts to dissolve it, or admit to being a hypocrite.

[jafar00]

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.


Do you realise how similar that sounds to the Red Cross report on the Germans and their concentration camps near their defeat?

[AnnEsthesia]

No, I do not feel those who fought for the South to be traitors. Were they misguided? Yes. Were they fighting for the status quo when it was a rather unsavory thing? Yes. But they were not traitors. A lot of people in the North made fortunes off the slave industry. Are they traitors too in your eyes? Or was it the fact that the people of the south lost? Would you be calling the northerners traitors had they lost?

It was a very sad part of american history where people on all sides were shoved into a war and gave their lives, often for no reason beyond trying to protect family and home.

Nope, I will not brand them traitors. The soldiers of the south were not the ones who decided to go to war. They were forced into war by circumstance.

But then again, I do not feel someone speaking out against this administration is a traitor either...

[Questerr]

Flaja:

You really need to read more about the trial of Henry Wirz--It was a railroaded sham.

Any witnesses that were produced to verify that Wirz did everything in his power to protect the prisoners and maintain a decent level of humanitarian conditions were either denied the right to testify or the testimonies were told to be ignored by the jury.

The prime piece of evidence against him was the creation of a "dead line" around the inner the edge of the camp where if any prisoner passed it, they would be shot. What was not brought up in that case was that dead lines were used in nearly every prison camp in the war, to include the Union camps.

When groups of "marauders" were formed from Union prisoners in the camp that went around and attacked and robbed other prisoners, Wirz authorized the prisoners to arrest, try, and hang those men. He constantly asked for more supplies, but do to condition from the war, he could not get any. Even still, he went out of his way to accumulate supplies from the surrounding farms.

Wirz was also screwed from the beginning because the Camp was grossly overcrowded and every time he asked for prisoners to be moved, he was told that there was no where else for them to go.

None of this was allowed to be used as evidence in his defense and if that was the case, he would have been exonerated. The post-war Union politicians wanted Jefferson Davis and other prominent Confederates to pay for the war and they thought that they could get Wriz to implicate them. When Wirz refused, they did everything in their power to make sure he was scapegoated.

You also need to research into Camp Douglas in Chicago. It was the Andersonville of the North. No only were prisoners not fed correctly, they also were not given appropriate shelter from the heavily rain and snow of Chicago. All throughout the war, citizens of Chicago were allowed to go and watch and taunt the Confederates and in the first year, guards even stood by as several mods attacked prisoners in the Camp. There are even accusations that the original owner of the camp, sold dead Conderate bodies to medical universities and buried the rest in a mass unmarked grave.

No one has ever been held accountable for attrocities of Camp Douglas.

Oh, and for all you want to call Confederates "traitors", they were all pardoned.

[flaja]

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.


Do you realise how similar that sounds to the Red Cross report on the Germans and their concentration camps near their defeat?


As if conditions in German camps were ever good?[hr]
No, I do not feel those who fought for the South to be traitors.

Define traitor.[hr]
Flaja:

You really need to read more about the trial of Henry Wirz--It was a railroaded sham.



You honestly believe that Wirz could have made any effort to show concern for the prisoners at Andersonville considering the photo I posted?

[AnnEsthesia]

*chuckle* Whether you like it or not, the confederates were Americans. Revise history in your own head all you want, that does not change the facts. They were and are Americans.

[jafar00]

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.


Do you realise how similar that sounds to the Red Cross report on the Germans and their concentration camps near their defeat?


As if conditions in German camps were ever good?


Well, they weren't supposed to be holiday camps, but according to the Red Cross report, the allied bombing of German supply lines towards the end was so effective, they weren't able to get any food or supplies out to the camps. Many died from exposure and starvation.

[Buck Laser]

*chuckle* Whether you like it or not, the confederates were Americans. Revise history in your own head all you want, that does not change the facts. They were and are Americans.

Emale reminds me of another poster who espouses an idiosyncratic interpretation of history and claims it's the only true one.

IMO, history interpretation is an ongoing process, and revisions of historical views aren't necessarily bad, But it appears that this poster is trying to set up his own view as the only one. He's following in the footsteps the radical abolitionists who were eager to punish the south following the civil war. Of course, there are people who espouse the view that the North were the aggressors--they speak of the "War for Southron Independence" or the "War of Northern Aggression." I'm tempted to hurl a powerful anathema at all of them. But we do keep turning up surprises in history as new documents emerge, or as events change the way we look at the past.

[AnnEsthesia]

Actually, it is flaja claiming that the confederates were traitors and therefore not americans.

[flaja]

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.


Do you realise how similar that sounds to the Red Cross report on the Germans and their concentration camps near their defeat?


As if conditions in German camps were ever good?


Well, they weren't supposed to be holiday camps, but according to the Red Cross report, the allied bombing of German supply lines towards the end was so effective, they weren't able to get any food or supplies out to the camps. Many died from exposure and starvation.


When the Germans fled from Auschwitz in the face of the advancing Russian army they took many prisoners with them on a forced march. They also left many prisoners behind. Once the Germans were gone the remaining prisoners found store houses that were full of food and clothing that the Germans had not distributed.[hr]
Actually, it is flaja claiming that the confederates were traitors and therefore not americans.


What else would you call them? Practically everyone who served in the CSA government and just about anyone who served as an officer in the CSA military before Bull Run (meaning they were not promoted from the ranks once the war was in progress) had served either in the U.S. government or the U.S. armed forces. Every single one of these men had taken an oath to support and protect the Constitution of the United States. By participating in the Rebellion they all violated this oath. Not only were they traitors, they were also hypocrites.

[Buck Laser]

But the confederate conditions were so much worse due to their position in the war. When they began losing the conditions deteriorated a lot.


Do you realise how similar that sounds to the Red Cross report on the Germans and their concentration camps near their defeat?


As if conditions in German camps were ever good?


Well, they weren't supposed to be holiday camps, but according to the Red Cross report, the allied bombing of German supply lines towards the end was so effective, they weren't able to get any food or supplies out to the camps. Many died from exposure and starvation.


When the Germans fled from Auschwitz in the face of the advancing Russian army they took many prisoners with them on a forced march. They also left many prisoners behind. Once the Germans were gone the remaining prisoners found store houses that were full of food and clothing that the Germans had not distributed.[hr]
Actually, it is flaja claiming that the confederates were traitors and therefore not americans.


What else would you call them? Practically everyone who served in the CSA government and just about anyone who served as an officer in the CSA military before Bull Run (meaning they were not promoted from the ranks once the war was in progress) had served either in the U.S. government or the U.S. armed forces. Every single one of these men had taken an oath to support and protect the Constitution of the United States. By participating in the Rebellion they all violated this oath. Not only were they traitors, they were also hypocrites.

[namguy]

I disagree Buck. I recognized the picture immediately but not because of anything I was taught in school, only through personal research, etc. Public schools show equally graphic pictures of Holocaust survivors. I see no reason why images such as the above should not be included.

-NC


Good saying:peace: