Who's going to Hell?

[Deadshot]

Before I grew up I always thought as a kid that Hell would be filled with murders and rapists, people who did the ultimate evil. As I grew older and saw people willing to put their career ahead of doing the right thing and people who would lie and steal just to have more, it really effected me, drove me to law enforcement.

I truly believe that Hell will be full and many people there simply will not be able to comprehend why they're there. They will say to God that they went to church, tried to do good, etc. I think God will come back and explain, what they knew in their hearts but just couldn't do. Things like "Instead of laying off those 5 workers so you could get a bonus and promotion you should have been happy with what you had." or "You made millions 'for your family' but never spent time with your wife and kids they suffered for your selfishness."

What do you guys think? Is it all just the Ten Commandments or a religious Dogma (i.e. The Catholic Dogma) or is it more in line with my idea...just curious.

[ViolaLee]

Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[AnnEsthesia]

Me! Me! I have my handbasket and am not afraid to use it!

[Marley]

...at least you're enjoying the ride?

No wait, that was a bucket, sorry.

I find following Christ's teachings, as we are capable of communicating and understanding it, renders very real positive results here on earth. I'm skeptical of too harsh a judgement in the afterlife because (1) one of those teachings is we're all sinners (as I recall, right?), and (2) I can't accept that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost lack the love and compassion to condemn billions of Jews, Buddists, even Muslims to hell.

Overall, for me, it's simple, give your heart and soul to God, keep your feet on the ground on earth as long as you can, don't take any shit from any other person, and don't trust anyone who claims they know more about God than you do!

From there, it's 100% faith baby!

[AnnEsthesia]

The way I figure it, if you live a good life, god will see that and reward you, whether you call him God, Jesus, Ishmael or Bob. I think he is big enough (pun intended) to not care what the outer label is and see that you have "done good" (TM).

[Alonzo]

Before I grew up I always thought as a kid that Hell would be filled with murders and rapists, people who did the ultimate evil.

I grew up Catholic. So it was basically hell may or may not exist, but if it does the only really bad people will be there. The majority will probably go to purgatory for a while, assuming it exists, and the rest will go to heaven, which does exist.

[BoogyMan]

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[NortheastCynic]

From what I understand, most individuals who die go to Purgatory, according to most sects of Christianity, am I right?

-NC

[nevadamedic]

I've got a list of people who are going to hell, God sent it to me in a vision last night.:nana:

[AnnEsthesia]

I am going to hell because I was baptized and choose not to follow that faith. Were I to decide to follow it, I guess I would have to trade my basket in for a golden ticket, but so far I have not done that.

[nevadamedic]

I am going to hell because I was baptized and choose not to follow that faith. Were I to decide to follow it, I guess I would have to trade my basket in for a golden ticket, but so far I have not done that.


Yup, you were on the list God gave me. He told me to chisel it out on some stone tablets but I am to lazy. :madlaugh:[hr]So is Bill Clinton and that Republican Senator that was cheating on his wife with prostitutes(I think his name is Vitter?). Anyone who cheats on the spouse is a piece of garbage and is going to hell. You do not treat women like that ever.

[Alonzo]

What about all the women who cheat on men?

[madbetcha2]

Before I grew up I always thought as a kid that Hell would be filled with murders and rapists, people who did the ultimate evil.

I grew up Catholic. So it was basically hell may or may not exist, but if it does the only really bad people will be there. The majority will probably go to purgatory for a while, assuming it exists, and the rest will go to heaven, which does exist.

Hell,the Inferno is Almighty Lord's justice to the pagan and sinners,it is difference to "Purgatorio".It is the place to those turn their face off Christ and deny to confess' sinner's final place.Full of tortour and painful scream,the laughs from the deamon,they are enjoying such bloody orgism.And there is no "END" in such punishment,it is eternal suffer.

[Alonzo]

Mad, does that hell involve orgies, wine and gluttony? If so I may have to find myself a drifter to kill.

[madbetcha2]

Mad, does that hell involve orgies, wine and gluttony? If so I may have to find myself a drifter to kill.

No,it is a place which thirsty without water,hungry without food,cold without clothes - a place that "hopeless but also without release".

[Alonzo]

So heaven has those things?

[madbetcha2]

In heaven there is no thirsty,hungry nor cold.Why need those things?Human never image what a place can be that Christ prepare for us in heaven.Only thing is sure - it will be the best for us.

[underdawg]

I don't believe in hell, but if I do go there I will enjoy the company of all my fellow sinners.

[Alonzo]

In heaven there is no thirsty,hungry nor cold.Why need those things?Human never image what a place can be that Christ prepare for us in heaven.Only thing is sure - it will be the best for us.


I don't know, I can think of much better pleasures than the things you promise.

[BoogyMan]

From what I understand, most individuals who die go to Purgatory, according to most sects of Christianity, am I right?

-NC


NC, that is a Cathlic doctrine, but it is nowhere mentioned in the N.T.

[AnnEsthesia]

Before I grew up I always thought as a kid that Hell would be filled with murders and rapists, people who did the ultimate evil.

I grew up Catholic. So it was basically hell may or may not exist, but if it does the only really bad people will be there. The majority will probably go to purgatory for a while, assuming it exists, and the rest will go to heaven, which does exist.

Hell,the Inferno is Almighty Lord's justice to the pagan and sinners,it is difference to "Purgatorio".It is the place to those turn their face off Christ and deny to confess' sinner's final place.Full of tortour and painful scream,the laughs from the deamon,they are enjoying such bloody orgism.And there is no "END" in such punishment,it is eternal suffer.


:thumbsup: Thank goodness! I would far rather that than being stuck in heaven with people who spew hatred in god's supposed name. :innocent:

[Truth_and_Power]

Before I grew up I always thought as a kid that Hell would be filled with murders and rapists, people who did the ultimate evil.

I grew up Catholic. So it was basically hell may or may not exist, but if it does the only really bad people will be there. The majority will probably go to purgatory for a while, assuming it exists, and the rest will go to heaven, which does exist.

Hell,the Inferno is Almighty Lord's justice to the pagan and sinners,it is difference to "Purgatorio".It is the place to those turn their face off Christ and deny to confess' sinner's final place.Full of tortour and painful scream,the laughs from the deamon,they are enjoying such bloody orgism.And there is no "END" in such punishment,it is eternal suffer.


:thumbsup: Thank goodness! I would far rather that than being stuck in heaven with people who spew hatred in god's supposed name. :innocent:


Save me a seat!

[Buck Laser]

From what I understand, most individuals who die go to Purgatory, according to most sects of Christianity, am I right?

-NC
Actually, I've read that the Catholic church is rethinking its doctrine of purgatory, and may drop it from official dogma. No protestant denominations that I know of use the idea of purgatory.

[NortheastCynic]

It's always made me laugh when the Catholic Church changes it's dogma. I can just imagine the announcement being made in purgatory over the PA system:

"Attention, all souls currently in, or traveling to purgatory will be expedited to heaven effective immediately. Also, it's BINGO night, so good luck everyone."

-NC

[Buck Laser]

It's always made me laugh when the Catholic Church changes it's dogma. I can just imagine the announcement being made in purgatory over the PA system:

"Attention, all souls currently in, or traveling to purgatory will be expedited to heaven effective immediately. Also, it's BINGO night, so good luck everyone."

-NC

Well, the Mormons have a tendency to do that, too. A few years back, one of the council of elders, or whatever the leaders call themselves, received a "revelation" that it was OK for people of color to become priests in the Mormon Church. That kinda got them out of a bind that they claimed wasn't racist at all.

And now a good many protestant churches are rethinking their stands with regard to gay people.

[jafar00]

Well it's this tendency for people to just change things as they see fit that forced God to send so many Prophets one after another to get His Message into our thick heads.

It's a miracle that the Qur'aan has been kept intact all this time.

It's quite simple really. Obey God or you go to Hell.

[bobbylien]

And what if you find it impossible to believe in the idea of god? You can live a perfectly moral life, obeying all of the commandments and all of that shit but still go to hell.. right?

I find following Christ's teachings, as we are capable of communicating and understanding it, renders very real positive results here on earth.
Exactly, a person shouldn't follow the commandments because god told him/her to but because it is a good way to live your life.

[Newscaster]

Everybody seems to have at least one idea about what hell is like, who is there and what happens when you get there. There are fires, devils with pitchforks, demons and all manner of nasty things. Now, if all this is true, it would mean that someone among us has been there and has come back to let us know what hell is. Lets assume that is true. They were there, they got burned a bit and now they are back. Okay. So answer these questions: Where is hell? Does the Devil really wear a Van Dyke beard and carry around a pitchfork? Is it really hot? Does Hell really fit all those fantasy descriptions? Or is hell something simpler like your mother-in-law coming to live with you or something we can relate to?
I basically dont believe there is a hell but I hope like hell there is a heaven. I believe that if you lead a good life, G-d rewards you will some form of heaven but if you are a bad guy, there is no hell, you just disappear...poof and thats all she wrote.

[jafar00]

And what if you find it impossible to believe in the idea of god? You can live a perfectly moral life, obeying all of the commandments and all of that shit but still go to hell.. right?


You never know. God is also known as Ar-Rahim (The most Merciful). He is also known as Al-'Aleem (The All Knowing). God knows what is deep within your heart.

Perhaps on the day of resurrection, your heart will betray your outward unbelief and tell God you really were not only someone who did good deeds, but someone who deep in their heart, without really realising it, believed. You may then feel God's Mercy.

But then again, you will never know until the day and the account of your life is given to you.

[Truth_and_Power]

It's quite simple really. Obey God or you go to Hell.


Why does an omnipotent being want mindless slaves?

[AnnEsthesia]

Maybe he has a headache and does not want the noise of all the 'questioning'?

[Buck Laser]

I went to a Lutheran parochial school in the second grade, and got an oversized load of Lutheran dogma. I remember the teacher saying that when we got to heaven (as all litle Lutheran boys must), we would be sitting in clouds of glory, playing our harps and praising God.

At the time, building model airplanes was my main pleasure in life. As I thought about the harp thing, I decided I didn't really care to go to heaven if I couldn't play with model airplanes.

By the way, I still play with model airplanes. But now I have a more sophisticated lack of understanding about what heaven may be like. :lmao:

[nevadamedic]

What about all the women who cheat on men?


Them too. Unless it is with another woman and the man is involved. :ecstatic:

[JohnM81]

It's quite simple really. Obey God or you go to Hell.


Why does an omnipotent being want mindless slaves?


He doesn't, he wants willing servents After all he paid a high price for each and everyone one who would choose him.

1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ, God in human form, is the price paid to settle the untold amount of sin by man.

[AnnEsthesia]

What about all the women who cheat on men?


Them too. Unless it is with another woman and the man is involved. :ecstatic:


:rolleyes:

[jafar00]

The suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ, God in human form, is the price paid to settle the untold amount of sin by man.


And this is where we differ greatly. We don't believe God can die. Nor do we believe God had or needed a Son, nor do we believe the so called Son of God was in reality actually God in human form who talked to himself while pretending to be the Son of God when he really was God. Now I'm, confused going in circles.

There is no logic in what you say. You are saying God suffered and had himself killed in order to pay for all our sins.

Jesus(upon him peace) was a Messenger, a Mercy, and a Miracle from God. He was not God, nor was he God's son, nor is he a partner to the God that needs no partners.

<rant mode off. Apologies and no disrespect intended ;)>

Here is a message to you in the Qur'aan.. (my additions for understanding in bold)

O followers of the Book!(Christians) do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa(Jesus) son of Marium(Mary) is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium(Mary) and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. (Qur'aan 4:171)

[Deadshot]

Do you go to Hell for eternity though? Wouldn't you think that God, who in all religions is known as "All Merciful" and in the Christian religion as a "Merciful Father", wouldn't he have mercy, eventuall for all of us?

I guess I'm comparing God the Father to me as a father. I'd be crushed if my daughter grew up a killer or stole from people, etc. Of course I'd want her punished if she was a killer, but not for eternity!

For all those parents out there, could you do that to your kid, punish him/her for all time? Wouldn't you think that somehow there would still be a way to redeem yourself?

I ask because, when compared to eternity, this life is awfully short. Take the evil life of the Marquis de Sade who died over 300 years ago. I think he only lived to be 60 and was probably only really "evil' for about 50 of those years. I just have a hard time believing that a loving Father would damn you to the suffering of Hell, as madbetcha describes, forever when you only had 50 years to make a difference.

I guess I think Hell is more a place of punishment and rehabilitation. If you keep doing bad, you'll stay in timeout. But it's not "eternal thirst or eternal hunger", instead it's a place that's boring, a place that the murderer can't commit murder or rapist rape, it's a place of white light and nothingness and it's not to punish but to get you better so you can be with your Father someday.

[AnnEsthesia]

I plan to winter in Hell. In summer I am going to the north of France.

[jafar00]

Do you go to Hell for eternity though? Wouldn't you think that God, who in all religions is known as "All Merciful" and in the Christian religion as a "Merciful Father", wouldn't he have mercy, eventuall for all of us?

Funny you should say that. It's not talked about in the mainstream, but I vaguely remember a suhba (talk in association) with my Sheikh where mentioned the punishment of Hell for some may not be for all eternity and that they may spend a period of time there for purification although that period may seem like an eternity. 80,000 years, of which each year is like 80,000 years, a day of those years being like 500 years. Or something like that. I don't remember exactly.

During the Prophet Muhammad's (saw) ascension he was taken to different levels of Paradise. In one lower level there were people eating rocks from a stream, they were the ones who "ate" usury in their business. Others had half white, half black faces. Those were the two faced people who used to backbite a say bad things about others behind their backs.

The whole crux of the matter seems to point to some being let straight into paradise, having spent their short time on Earth doing good and praying to God and offering thanks for their provision. Others still would be pardoned for their minor misdeeds. Others receiving lesser punishments and the others left to suffer in hellfire.

Some relevant sayings from Hadith or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad(saw)

He will not enter hell who hath faith equal to a mustard seed in his heart, and he will not enter Paradise who hath a single grain of pride, equal to a mustard seed in his heart.

Muhammad, p.b.u.h. said: "That person will not enter Paradise who hath one atom of pride in his heart." And a man present said, "Verily, a man is fond of having good clothes and good shoes." Muhammad p.b.u.h. said, "God is Beauty and delighteth in the beautiful; but pride is holding man in contempt."

The greatest crimes are to associate another with God, to vex your father and mother, to murder your own species, to commit suicide, and to swear a lie.

There are seven people whom God will draw under His own shadow, on the day when there will be no shadow; one of them will be a man who hath given alms and concealed it, so that his left hand knew not what his right hand did.

[JohnM81]

The suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ, God in human form, is the price paid to settle the untold amount of sin by man.


And this is where we differ greatly. We don't believe God can die. Nor do we believe God had or needed a Son, nor do we believe the so called Son of God was in reality actually God in human form who talked to himself while pretending to be the Son of God when he really was God. Now I'm, confused going in circles.


I understand that muslims have differing beliefs than Christians. This is no secret. It is Christian belief that islam is just a distorted and false varient of judeo Christianity. Im sure this is no secret to you.

Don't believe God can die? Well he can't in the human sense of dying. Christs death on the cross was him releasing his spirit. Find me a human that can choose when he wants to die by commanding his own spirit to leave...you can't. So no Christ didn't die in the same manner as humans do. Nor do humans rise from the grave as Christ did. Jesus isn't dead. He lives even now as you and I do.

And yet muslims believe in the old testament? Do you not know that even God in human form (christ) was there?

Gen 18:1 ¶ And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he [Abraham] sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he [Abraham] lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Or do they brush this account aside as a corruption of scriptures?



There is no logic in what you say. You are saying God suffered and had himself killed in order to pay for all our sins.


Indeed. What, above all else, the islam religion lacks is the understand that no amount of spiritual dicipline, jihad, or works can ever repay the debt of sin we have brought upon ourselves. Thats it. Its game over. We failed. None, no not one, is good enough to gain salvation. God knows this but he isn't willing to let us go. The only thing pure enough that can be sacrificed (the OT method to pay for sins) is himself. And so he suffered for us on the cross, and for that we christians are supposed to give him our undying love and obedience. A debit we can never repay and a gift we never earned! Praise God.


Jesus(upon him peace) was a Messenger, a Mercy, and a Miracle from God. He was not God, nor was he God's son, nor is he a partner to the God that needs no partners.


I understand that is the muslim belief. And its a shame because its 100% wrong. Christ wasn't just a messenger, mercy or a miracle from God...He is God. Christ, the holy Ghost, and the father are all one. And they are God. Just as we have three parts (body, soul, and mind) so does God. Afterall, we were made in his image.

[jafar00]

The suffering, death, and ressurection of Christ, God in human form, is the price paid to settle the untold amount of sin by man.


And this is where we differ greatly. We don't believe God can die. Nor do we believe God had or needed a Son, nor do we believe the so called Son of God was in reality actually God in human form who talked to himself while pretending to be the Son of God when he really was God. Now I'm, confused going in circles.


I understand that muslims have differing beliefs than Christians. This is no secret. It is Christian belief that islam is just a distorted and false varient of judeo Christianity. Im sure this is no secret to you.

Don't believe God can die? Well he can't in the human sense of dying. Christs death on the cross was him releasing his spirit. Find me a human that can choose when he wants to die by commanding his own spirit to leave...you can't. So no Christ didn't die in the same manner as humans do. Nor do humans rise from the grave as Christ did. Jesus isn't dead. He lives even now as you and I do.


I can agree with you there. Jesus(upon him peace) did not die on the cross but was raised up to be with God until he returns.

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
(Qur'aan 4:157-158)


And yet muslims believe in the old testament? Do you not know that even God in human form (christ) was there?

Gen 18:1 ¶ And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he [Abraham] sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he [Abraham] lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Or do they brush this account aside as a corruption of scriptures?

Muslims do not believe in the Old Testament, so yes that corruption of scripture cannot be trusted.


There is no logic in what you say. You are saying God suffered and had himself killed in order to pay for all our sins.



Indeed. What, above all else, the islam religion lacks is the understand that no amount of spiritual dicipline, jihad, or works can ever repay the debt of sin we have brought upon ourselves. Thats it. Its game over. We failed. None, no not one, is good enough to gain salvation. God knows this but he isn't willing to let us go. The only thing pure enough that can be sacrificed (the OT method to pay for sins) is himself. And so he suffered for us on the cross, and for that we christians are supposed to give him our undying love and obedience. A debit we can never repay and a gift we never earned!

What sin is it that we have brought upon ourselves? We are responsible for our actions in this life and it is those actions and intentions which we will be held accountable for on the day of resurrection.


Praise God.


Allahu Akbar :)


Jesus(upon him peace) was a Messenger, a Mercy, and a Miracle from God. He was not God, nor was he God's son, nor is he a partner to the God that needs no partners.



I understand that is the muslim belief. And its a shame because its 100% wrong. Christ wasn't just a messenger, mercy or a miracle from God...He is God. Christ, the holy Ghost, and the father are all one. And they are God. Just as we have three parts (body, soul, and mind) so does God. Afterall, we were made in his image.


It would appear, even your own scripture disagrees with you.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mark 12:29


And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD. In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.

Just the single fact that part of the Bible correctly identifies God as the Almighty and singular God who has not and requires not partners, and another part of the Bible starts going on about 3 all sparked off by a mistaken inclusion of a footnote, makes it a corrupted text that can't be trusted fully and certainly cannot be used as a basis for doctrine.

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Casting pearls before swine is not wise.
2. Some religions are encoded not to hear.
3. Islam is a primary one.
4. Gift of Mohamed.
5. Mohamed will have a special place in hell, perhaps at the right hand of Satan.
6. No one has helped align more souls to hell than Mohamed.
7. Old *Head Chopper* is for sure in hell, as ( I ), *The Great CWN* type this.
8. Follow Mohamed at your own peril.
9. Your souls destruction is on your own hands, and Mohamed's.
10. There is no good thing under the sun in Islam.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[preservanation]

Ah,
The Great CWN.
LOVE IT[hr]ISLAM is the threat,
not my friends.


(damn baptists)[hr]This should be a poll

[JohnM81]

It would appear, even your own scripture disagrees with you.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mark 12:29


And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD. In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.

Just the single fact that part of the Bible correctly identifies God as the Almighty and singular God who has not and requires not partners, and another part of the Bible starts going on about 3 all sparked off by a mistaken inclusion of a footnote, makes it a corrupted text that can't be trusted fully and certainly cannot be used as a basis for doctrine.




Come now, do you really think that someone (me) who has dedicated my life to the teachings of the inspired word of God (the bible) doesn't know about these verses. Of all people I would think you would understand that the scriptures weren't written in english. IF you wish to examine Gods word lets do so properly.


Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Deuteronomy 6:4 shama` Yisra'el Y@hovah 'elohiym 'echad Y@hovah

Now there are two words here from this transliteration that are very interesting. 'elohiym and 'echad.

'elohiym is a plural form of a masculine noun (plural intensive - singular meaning). Yes in the very verse you put up describes God, a singluar being, in plural form. Odd no? It is indeed until you look at the second word 'echad. 'echad means one or one of a group. Sir, you just posted a verse supporting the concept of the trinity in your attempt to discredit it.

And now Mark 12:29.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29 de Iesous apokrinomai autos hoti protos pas entole akouo Israel kurios hemon theos esti heis kurios


The key word here is 'heis' (one). However heis is one of a union. As in one group or saying one of a union of entities. We can see this in the following verse:

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:30 ego kai pater esmen heis

This above verse shows very clearly how 'heis' can one of a group. And considering its used directly in other verses which claim the trinity its quite conclusive you just posted another verse which SUPPORTS the trinity in your attempt to discredit it. Remember the scriptures were not written in english.



And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD.

Well being you quoted deut 6:4 which actually supports the concept of the trinity I think you soundly disproved your above remark without even knowing it. Even in Genesis 1:1 the plural form of 'elohiym is used.


In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.

Oh, it was always there, you just never knew about it. Now you do.

[jafar00]

It would appear, even your own scripture disagrees with you.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mark 12:29


And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD. In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.

Just the single fact that part of the Bible correctly identifies God as the Almighty and singular God who has not and requires not partners, and another part of the Bible starts going on about 3 all sparked off by a mistaken inclusion of a footnote, makes it a corrupted text that can't be trusted fully and certainly cannot be used as a basis for doctrine.




Come now, do you really think that someone (me) who has dedicated my life to the teachings of the inspired word of God (the bible) doesn't know about these verses. Of all people I would think you would understand that the scriptures weren't written in english. IF you wish to examine Gods word lets do so properly.


Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
Deuteronomy 6:4 shama` Yisra'el Y@hovah 'elohiym 'echad Y@hovah

Now there are two words here from this transliteration that are very interesting. 'elohiym and 'echad.

'elohiym is a plural form of a masculine noun (plural intensive - singular meaning). Yes in the very verse you put up describes God, a singluar being, in plural form. Odd no? It is indeed until you look at the second word 'echad. 'echad means one or one of a group. Sir, you just posted a verse supporting the concept of the trinity in your attempt to discredit it.


The pluristic nature of Eloyhim could be similar to the "Royal We" as used in the Qur'aan. It doesn't suggest God is plural. God has always been singular in nature.
I ssked my neighbour and Eloyhim in the context of the OT Hebrew is singular in nature. Otherwise the Jews would also have a Trinity, which they most certainly do not.

The singular nature of God however, is indeed ENFORCED by the use of "echad".
It's my understanding (and I asked my Jewish neighbour just now) that echad is a singular word. Like saying I have one (echad) bag of apples. or I have one (echad) computer. Echad is the same as one in English and can be used the same way. Just because the one (echad) bag of apples contains many apples, doesn't make the bag of apples a plural thing just as the one (echad) computer is not a plural thing. (Despite a dual core CPU :P)

Deuteronomy 17:6 is going to annoy you since it reads "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one(ECHAD!) witness."

Or perhaps Ecclesiastes 4:8?
"There was a man all alone;
he had neither son nor brother."

Read Ecclesiastes 4:8 in Hebrew. Notice the pesky Echad in there when referring to a singular man, all alone?

I guess you only mention "echad" when it could be (erroneously I'm told by a Hebrew speaking Jew) construed as being a pluristic word when in fact it's not.


And now Mark 12:29.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29 de Iesous apokrinomai autos hoti protos pas entole akouo Israel kurios hemon theos esti heis kurios

The key word here is 'heis' (one). However heis is one of a union. As in one group or saying one of a union of entities. We can see this in the following verse:


Again with the context. I also have a Greek on IM (Damn these multicultural Muslims eh? :lmao:)
In greek, It's exactly as it reads in English. The God is a singular thing.


Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:30 ego kai pater esmen heis

This above verse shows very clearly how 'heis' can one of a group. And considering its used directly in other verses which claim the trinity its quite conclusive you just posted another verse which SUPPORTS the trinity in your attempt to discredit it. Remember the scriptures were not written in english.


Ok, here the context can get strewed. It can mean, I and my father are "agreeable" as in of one mind.
Keep in mind, I just pasted what you gave me to my friend and his response is what I have mentioned here.


And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD.


Well being you quoted deut 6:4 which actually supports the concept of the trinity I think you soundly disproved your above remark without even knowing it. Even in Genesis 1:1 the plural form of 'elohiym is used.


But, you still haven't explained why John 5 7-8 doesn't exist in any manuscript before the 16th century. Why is that?


In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.

Oh, it was always there, you just never knew about it. Now you do.


Nope. Still can't come around to your way of thinking. The Jews reject the idea of the Trinity. The Muslims also reject it. You guys seem to surrounded by Monotheists who disagree with your pluralistic concept of God.

[JohnM81]

The pluristic nature of Eloyhim could be similar to the "Royal We" as used in the Qur'aan. It doesn't suggest God is plural. God has always been singular in nature.
I ssked my neighbour and Eloyhim in the context of the OT Hebrew is singular in nature. Otherwise the Jews would also have a Trinity, which they most certainly do not.


Im sorry but your jewish friend is mistaken. The singular form of God is 'elowahh. Its strongs number is 0433. We see it used when refering to God of the jews in some verses and also to idol gods.

For example:

2Ch 32:15 Now therefore let not 03808 Hezekiah 02396 deceive 05377 you, nor persuade 05496 you on this manner, neither yet believe 0539 him: for no god 0433 of any nation 01471 or kingdom 04467 was able 03201 to deliver 05337 his people 05971 out of mine hand 03027, and out of the hand 03027 of my fathers 01: how much less shall your God 0430 deliver 05337 you out of mine hand 03027?

When speaking about God in a specific sense it is 'elowahh and the plural form for God or gods is el·o·hēm'. I am not doubting that you do indeed have a hebrew speaking jewish friend but languages change and what he might have been taught from childhood could be different from old testament hebrew. To add to it lets look at the hebrew lexicon by Gesenius.

More specifically the definition in old hebrew of 'eloyhim:
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God

While

'elowahh (singular form)
1) God
2) false god


Again, your friend is mistaken. Even the above lexicon disagrees with him. I bet he is getting confused between current day hebrew and old testament hebrew. Don't forget varying dialects and the fact that jewish language has changed a lot due to their times in captivity and such.



The singular nature of God however, is indeed ENFORCED by the use of "echad".
It's my understanding (and I asked my Jewish neighbour just now) that echad is a singular word. Like saying I have one (echad) bag of apples. or I have one (echad) computer. Echad is the same as one in English and can be used the same way. Just because the one (echad) bag of apples contains many apples, doesn't make the bag of apples a plural thing just as the one (echad) computer is not a plural thing. (Despite a dual core CPU :P)

Deuteronomy 17:6 is going to annoy you since it reads "On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one(ECHAD!) witness."

Or perhaps Ecclesiastes 4:8?
"There was a man all alone;
he had neither son nor brother."

Read Ecclesiastes 4:8 in Hebrew. Notice the pesky Echad in there when referring to a singular man, all alone?


Slow down there skippy. Lets take a moment to see what I originally wrote:

'echad means one or one of a group


I know full well that 'echad can be one or one of a group. Thats why I wrote exactly just that. But when used with the plural 'eloyhim it to shares its plural definition.

Here is proof that it holds a plural and singular "one".

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:6 Y@hovah 'amar `am 'echad 'echad saphah chalal `asah lo' kol batsar zamam `asah

You will see where 'echad is used as one of a group and one thing. The people are one is a group of being considered 'echad (one) as it is used for the trinity. People are plural so is eloyhim so the 'echad is the plural form. Then we see 'echad for one thing...the language. One language is a singular form.

So 'echad still supports the plural being of a group due to the plural nature of eloyhim. You would have a point if the 'echad in Deut 6:4 was 'elowahh 'echad. But it doesn't say that.




And now Mark 12:29.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29 de Iesous apokrinomai autos hoti protos pas entole akouo Israel kurios hemon theos esti heis kurios

The key word here is 'heis' (one). However heis is one of a union. As in one group or saying one of a union of entities. We can see this in the following verse:


Again with the context. I also have a Greek on IM (Damn these multicultural Muslims eh? :lmao:)
In greek, It's exactly as it reads in English. The God is a singular thing.


Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:30 ego kai pater esmen heis

This above verse shows very clearly how 'heis' can one of a group. And considering its used directly in other verses which claim the trinity its quite conclusive you just posted another verse which SUPPORTS the trinity in your attempt to discredit it. Remember the scriptures were not written in english.


Ok, here the context can get strewed. It can mean, I and my father are "agreeable" as in of one mind.
Keep in mind, I just pasted what you gave me to my friend and his response is what I have mentioned here.



My personal knowledge of greek is significantly less than hebrew but I am not sure he is the best source being we aren't talking about current day greek. I will once again turn to the actual lexicon that was translated while keeping in mind this is greek as they spoke it long ago. Just so you can look up my research I am referencing Thayer's Lexicon.

This comes from Vines Expository dictionary of greek used in the time of the new testament:

Heis:

(a) "one" in contrast to many, e.g., Mat 25:15; Rom 5:18, RV, "(through) one (trespass)," i.e., Adam's transgression, in contrast to the "one act of righteousness," i.e., the death of Christ (not as AV, "the offense of one," and "the righteousness of one");

(b) metaphorically, "union" and "concord," e.g., Jhn 10:30; 11:52; 17:11,21,22; Rom 12:4,5; Phl 1:27;

So you see, I stand by the assertion that the very posts you put up there support the arguement of the trinity.








And the basis of the Trinity, a comment in 1 John 5 7-8 doesn't actually appear in any manuscript of the Bible before the 16th Century AD.


Well being you quoted deut 6:4 which actually supports the concept of the trinity I think you soundly disproved your above remark without even knowing it. Even in Genesis 1:1 the plural form of 'elohiym is used.


But, you still haven't explained why John 5 7-8 doesn't exist in any manuscript before the 16th century. Why is that?


Well first off I never put 1 John 5 as a verse so why would I explain it. As for your remarts that 1 John didn't exist in any manuscripts until the 15th century is wrong. By about 200 A.D. we find from the scholar Clement, all of 1 John, Revalations, and Acts (Im not sure about that Acts though) was considered the 'loose cannon'.



In other words, a large part of your beliefs are based upon a mysterious addition to the bible that wasn't there before.
Oh, it was always there, you just never knew about it. Now you do.


Nope. Still can't come around to your way of thinking. The Jews reject the idea of the Trinity. The Muslims also reject it. You guys seem to surrounded by Monotheists who disagree with your pluralistic concept of God.



Just so you know, not all Jews reject the idea of the trinity. I should know half of my family is jewish.

[Ralph]

It is all very simple. "Choose" whom you will serve, make an informed decision, and then consider such, "If you love Me you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

While man's religious philosophies may be interesting, the beliefs of men do not establish truth. Truth is found in God's teaching. As the Christ concluded in prayer, "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your WORD is truth." (John 17:17) We are commanded to worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH, both word and deed of thought. (John 4:24)

If we believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, then we believe that truth is established by what the Bible proclaims is truth. As I said, simple. One either believes and chooses to accept this truth or they choose to try and work out their own salvation based only upon their merit of presenting a well lived life. I need all the help that I can get, as I am honest with myself and realize that no matter how much that I try, I will at some point present failure in relation to walking in kindness and truth among my fellow humans.

Choose this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house, WE SHALL SERVE THE LORD. (R)

[Deadshot]

...or just try and lead a good life. Be kind. Show those you love that you love them. Help those in need. And treat others as you wish to be treated....

[BoogyMan]

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Alonzo]

After seeing johnM's avatar "in chains for christ" and then getting a picture in my head of what that meant, I can say that yes, I'm going to hell.

[AnnEsthesia]

Welcome to the dark side. We have hos and alcohol.

[dogetahi]

No one goes to Hell. No one goes to heaven either. They are both mythical places conjured up to deny the grim reality of death.

[AnnEsthesia]

Dog, you can still come party with us in hell. So much more fun than those uptight people in heaven. ;)