Giuliani: Worse Than Bush

[ViolaLee]

The Presidential candidate that scares me the most is Rotten Rudy. He's even worse than Bush. Here's an article that pretty much covers what Rudy's all about. If we haven't lost site of what America used to be after W gets through with us, Rudy would surely take us all the way down if he's elected.

Rolling Stone - Giuliani: Worse Than Bush (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/14952564/giuliani_worse_than_bush)

[Labrocca]

Terrible hit-piece..unfortunately I read it all.

Then there's 9/11. Like Bush's, Rudy's career before the bombing was in the toilet; New Yorkers had come to think of him as an ambition-sick meanie whose personal scandals were truly wearying to think about.

That statement angered me the most. I was there for 3 different mayors and it was RUDY that fixed the city. It was RUDY that got rid of the crack epidemic. It was RUDY that cleaned up the street and brought crime to a new low after decades of being on the rise. It was under RUDY that the city prospered greatly. No mayor was as great in NYC since Laguardia. He wasn't love by all. He was after all a Republican mayor in a Democrat city. He did many things to irk the left like refusing to meet with Al Sharpton. The Village Voice wrote hit-pieces nearly weekly on Rudy...yet he ran the city VERY well and after one term...he was overwhelmingly re-elected. So for a guy who's career was in the toilet..he was doing pretty damn good.

Rudy first ran after being a successful NYC DA against Dinkins and lost...Dinkins was a TERRIBLE mayor. We had race riots and crime rose. Dinkins lost the next election to Rudy. The next election Rudy destroyed Ruth Messinger.

I won't be voting for Rudy because of his stance on Iraq BUT...don't confuse him with Bush. Rudy is an excellent leader and did a wonderful job for NYC well before 9/11.

Shame on the Rolling Stone for publishing this but it's not suprising. Anyone getting their political info from a rock magazine should have their head examined. You been to a doc lately Viola?

[Waffletush]

Sorry Labrocca, but just like soldier's opinion on Iraq... what do you know, you were there and this came from a magazine. :madlaugh:

[micfranklin]

Maybe you should go to OnTheIssues.org or Wikipedia and read his stances here. They're more reliable.

I still think Drooliani is scum and I won't vote for him.

[ViolaLee]

LOL Micfranklin....

Labrocca - do the ends justify the means?

Yes he cleaned up NYC.

This is an area where Rudy excelled. Once described by the NY Times as a "Human Hand Grenade", Rudy took on the challenge of a city heading to disaster. Rudy did not rely on any "team-work". He personally took on local Democrats, billion dollar deficits, poor city services, increasing welfare rolls, the filth in the city, panhandling, sidewalk urination and a dysfunctional city government. He "knocked heads" and took names and control wherever he felt the need. When the Police Commissioner, William Bratton resisted city hall's moves, Rudy got rid of him. He took most decision making processes away from other city agencies and made those decisions at city hall. He surrounded himself with Rudy "yes-men" (mostly lawyers by trade) and all information from the city had to pass through his office before going to the media.

The NY City Hall steps had previously been a place for protests and news conferences but Rudy banned reporters, politicians and interest groups from the steps. He refused to meet with the city's top elected black leaders for most of his mayoral term. Per local news correspondent, Andrew Kirtzman, " He'd storm out of news conferences, demeaned his questioners and picked fights. No amount of pressure from civil libertarians, unions, homeless advocates or street advocates could sway the mayor from his mission. The economic benefits then began to cascade: business boomed, and minority communities left for dead for half a century started flowering."

This style worked well for the big city mayor. Would it work for a US president? It's a good question to ponder..........

Yes crime went down while he was mayor.

But was the lowering of crime all due to Rudy? One must also take into consideration that President Clinton's new Federal Nationwide COPS program ($875Mil) that funded 100,000 community police for helping major cities also began kicking in as Rudy was taking charge. A year later, the COPS program funded an additional 50K police officers nationwide by 2005 for the cities with crime "hot spots". Along with this program was an additional 500 new Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's (ATF) agents, 1000 new Federal, State and Local Gun Prosecutors, funded training for crime gun tracing, the integrated ballistics information network and the funded, local anti-gun violence campaigns. Having a strong leader such as Giuliani was important for New York City, but the new Federal programs also gave him a big helping hand.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=22902

[ttriber]

I am glad you think Guiliani is Worse than Bush that gives me an extra point on why to vote for him. I'm so glad even though I've always wanted Guiliani to win that gives me even more hope that the Democrats hate him. Woohoo!!

[Labrocca]

http://ontheissues.org/Rudy_Giuliani.htm

Highlights...

Tax reductions of $10.4B through 2003. (Dec 1999)
Supports Task Force to continue reduce taxes. (Dec 1999)
Eliminated sales tax on clothes; reduced real estate tax. (Dec 1999)
Welfare offices as job centers. (Jan 2000)
The homeless need special attention: reach out & help. (Jan 2000)
Change welfare offices into job centers. (Dec 1999)
460,000 moved off welfare rolls during Rudy’s tenure. (Dec 1999)
Do whatever it takes to get the homeless off the streets. (Dec 1999)
Govt stabilizes business; businesses provide jobs. (Sep 1997)
Campaign theme: Transformation of NYC. (Dec 1999)
Turned around NYC & made it safe again. (Nov 1999)
305,000 jobs created during Rudy’s tenure. (Dec 1999)
Give Elian citizenship; decide fate in family court. (Apr 2000)
Good jobs build good families-we’ve created 360,000 jobs. (Feb 2000)
Child Protection should move toward permanent foster homes. (Jan 2000)
Home ownership decreases crime. (Jan 2000)
Need DNA Lab to Combat Crime. (Jan 2000)
Crime cut in half in NYC. (Dec 1999)
“CompStat” system stresses police accountability. (Dec 1999)
Giuliani’s sampling: large drops in all violent crime. (Dec 1999)
Quality of Life initiatives as well as crime reduction. (Dec 1999)
Risk cannot be eliminated, but take security seriously. (Jul 1999)
Extended all city benefits to same-sex couples. (May 1998)
Pro-choice; no ban on partial-birth abortions. (Dec 1999)

Yeah...sounds like a bad guy right.

Labrocca - do the ends justify the means?

A cliche won't win you a debate.

The only issue I don't like about Guiliani is terrorism and homeland security. Otherwise he is more liberal than most give him credit for. Also all the above mentioned are from pre-9/11 when imho he was a better mayor. 9/11 changed him...it gave him a national platform and I think he has let it get to his head. People might be telling him that without 9/11 he has no chance to be President but I don't believe that's true.

The lowering of crime was CERTAINLY due to Rudy. I was there. It was obvious. Other major cities with the extra police didn't see anywhere near the drop in crime that NYC did. Yes extra cops help BUT unless they have a good leader it's worthless. Guiliani made cops walk the streets again. There were no riots during his administration. While there was a few marches..there was no major violence from ANY of them..police or protestors. It was a VERY peaceful safe time in NYC. The trains were safe and so were the streets. You have NO idea what you are talking about in this regard Viola. I got my ass kicked and robbed a couple times before Rudy was mayor...I never had a street or train incident while he was mayor. The stastics alone speak for themselves. Many on the left labeled him a fascist and so be it...maybe that's partially true when it comes to crime. Is that such a bad thing in a city of 10 million people to keep crime low?

Rudy took over in 1993. Notice the obvious decline. By the end of his mayoralship crime was at pre-1965 levels...that's incredible.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

[micfranklin]

Is anyone here besides me aware that Giuliani also supports domestic wiretapping, the war in Iraq, torture and has tried to suppress freedom of speech in NY?

[ViolaLee]

Is anyone here besides me aware that Giuliani also supports domestic wiretapping, the war in Iraq, torture and has tried to suppress freedom of speech in NY?


Yep. I am.

I wonder if Labrocca and ttriber are aware?

Or maybe they like illegal spying, war for oil, torture and freedom suppression.

?

:ponder:

[Labrocca]

Is anyone here besides me aware that Giuliani also supports domestic wiretapping, the war in Iraq, torture and has tried to suppress freedom of speech in NY?


I am very aware of his National Security stances..it's the reason why I do NOT support him to be president. And the freedom of speech in NY part...what are you talking about? Are you confusing him with Bloomberg? Guiliani only took a stance about public money being used for material he felt was inappropriate. Personally I agree and most ARTS programs shouldn't be government funded.

And also you MUST admit that Guiliani is more intelligent than Bush. He was actually effective in NYC while Bush hasn't. I would have more faith in Guiliani BUT ...I don't believe as a nation we should be spreading Democracy via force.

[micfranklin]

Well Giuliani definitely has Bush in terms of intelligence.

As for freedom of speech attacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_of_Rudy_Giuliani#Alleged_free_speech _abridgments

[Labrocca]

As I said...in NYC Rudy was considered by many liberals as a very evil man. Oddly they thought Dinkins was great yet that man was letting NYC run into ruin.

I don't care how many lawsuits were filed against him...I was there...he did a great job of keeping law and order in the city as well as turning a $2 billion deficit into a $2 billion surplus. In NYC that's an incredible feat in just 6-7 years.

A city like that can't be governed by a panzy and Rudy didn't take any crap from ANYONE.

[ViolaLee]

Is anyone here besides me aware that Giuliani also supports domestic wiretapping, the war in Iraq, torture and has tried to suppress freedom of speech in NY?


I am very aware of his National Security stances..it's the reason why I do NOT support him to be president. And the freedom of speech in NY part...what are you talking about? Are you confusing him with Bloomberg? Guiliani only took a stance about public money being used for material he felt was inappropriate. Personally I agree and most ARTS programs shouldn't be government funded.

And also you MUST admit that Guiliani is more intelligent than Bush. He was actually effective in NYC while Bush hasn't. I would have more faith in Guiliani BUT ...I don't believe as a nation we should be spreading Democracy via force.


Art shouldn't be publically funded?

Wow, that's so sad. Another reason why I'll never be a Republican.

On three occasions Rudy tried to censor art in NYC. Financially punish the museums and shut down the exhibit. http://www.mobia.org/doc/art_religion_and_the_culture_war.doc

An no, I don't think he's more intelligent than Bush. He's repeating the same lies Bush/Cheney/Rice/Powell/Rumsfeld et have been telling all along. So either he is stupid and believes the lies, or he's a lying sack of shi t himself.

[ttriber]

I wonder if Labrocca and ttriber are aware?

Or maybe they like illegal spying, war for oil, torture and freedom suppression.

Let me go on and say this I don't give a rat's a** If the government has to use Domestic spying as long as their spying on terrorist. If it means they are spieng on me right now then so be it I'm not doing anything illegal to worry about. So many people make a huge ISSUE over Domestic spieng who cares If their speing on you unless your doing something illegal then their is a case for concern on your part. If it means wiretapping a safe house for terrorist then I'm all for it aren't we fighting the War on Terror?

As for the war for oil this one makes me laugh are you living in the same world I am because where I live Gas prices are 3.00$ a gallon and your gonna tell me its a war for oil and we aren't even getting discounts for gas.

The suppresion and torture comment is even funnier, Do you know that from these terrorist they have tortured they have found out terrorist plans to attack America. I've been reading a book about the Mossad and they talk about this. The few non-terrorist that they capture are either Al-Qaeda contacts or something related to terrorism I highly doubt they capture an Arab and call him Al-qaeda and stick him in Guantamino. Their is to much on the line for that to happend. If I was President I would tell the CIA to kill as many terrorist If it means getting information from them then so be it.

[Labrocca]

Art shouldn't be publically funded?

Wow, that's so sad. Another reason why I'll never be a Republican.

On three occasions Rudy tried to censor art in NYC. Financially punish the museums and shut down the exhibit. http://www.mobia.org/doc/art_religion_and_the_culture_war.doc

An no, I don't think he's more intelligent than Bush. He's repeating the same lies Bush/Cheney/Rice/Powell/Rumsfeld et have been telling all along. So either he is stupid and believes the lies, or he's a lying sack of shi t himself.


What if the "art" was a statue of Jesus in a court of law? What if this art was 50 statues of Jesus one in each capital?

Do you believe it would be OK to do such with YOUR money? Excuse me for believing that MY TAX DOLLARS shouldn't be used for funding of other peoples creative outlets. If you want to be an artist...be good enough that you can actually sell your art. Otherwise you are just a hack pretending to make art. There is enough private funding toward art that we don't need to use tax money for it. Art is normally something the rich enjoy anyways...average people have to spend their days working and their nights drinking to forget their miserable lives. Who has time for an art show?

btw...Jesus is a great figure to use for art since some of the greatest artists in history have used him as a subject. Michelangelo anyone?

http://www.jesuswalk.com/philippians/images/michelangelo_pieta469x466.jpg

[micfranklin]

Let me go on and say this I don't give a rat's a** If the government has to use Domestic spying as long as their spying on terrorist. If it means they are spieng on me right now then so be it I'm not doing anything illegal to worry about. So many people make a huge ISSUE over Domestic spieng who cares If their speing on you unless your doing something illegal then their is a case for concern on your part. If it means wiretapping a safe house for terrorist then I'm all for it aren't we fighting the War on Terror?

*sigh* Another believer that the government isn't breaking the law and that they're only doing it for your safety. Slippery slope, do you really think there's no potential for abuse of illegal warrantless wiretapping by our government? If so then you are extremely naive.

People like this disappoint me and the Founders greatly.

[Marley]

Rudy is the man for the job in 2008.

For the rationale supporting that opinion read LAmbrocca's posts above.

The nation needs the man that the city of New York had to do the same on a larger scale, especially at this time of jihad.

[micfranklin]

Why does everyone assume that Rudy's the man for the job when in reality he's as bad as Hitlery?

[Marley]

I love his domestic and foriegn policy results and actions. I particularly loved when he shoved the $10 million 9/11/01 donation up that Muslims rear end.

We are fighting our enemy in IRaq, and winning, I love his "constant suport for Iraq."

Your "torture" riff is pathetic. I have no problem extracting information from our enemy by any means possible. They are enemies of my country, they have no rights, and they can either surrender or die before they can kill me in my book.

No one has ever produced any harm sufffered from this "wiretapping" nonsense. As I understand it, as a citizen, I could communicate anything from a drug deal to a contracrt murder and anything the NSA recorded couldn'r be used against me, so where's the harm?

RUDY is the man for the job in 2008!

[micfranklin]

We are fighting our enemy in IRaq, and winning, I love his "constant suport for Iraq."

Funny. I thought our enemy was some guy called Osama bin Laden and that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. How silly of me to believe such a thing:rolleyes:

Your "torture" riff is pathetic. I have no problem extracting information from our enemy by any means possible. They are enemies of my country, they have no rights, and they can either surrender or die before they can kill me in my book.

Your advocation of torture is worse. That's against our constitutional law.

No one has ever produced any harm sufffered from this "wiretapping" nonsense. As I understand it, as a citizen, I could communicate anything from a drug deal to a contracrt murder and anything the NSA recorded couldn'r be used against me, so where's the harm?

That "no one's gotten hurt" is the biggest crock of shit I've heard. You act like the government can't or won't abuse that and it's also unconstitutional, but hey who gives a shit about the constitution anyway?

RUDY is the man for the job in 2008!

Rudy Giuliani: Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse....

[NortheastCynic]

The Constitution deals with government and its citizens. The Constitution is tacit on how warfare shall be conducted, only who has the rights and duties regarding it. The rights recognized in the constitution are with regards to a government and its citizens, NOT a government and the enemies at war with it.The Constitution enumerates the 'legitimate' acts the government can take...period. It does not enumerate the 'legitimate' acts the government can take with regard to it's own citizens, but with whoever it comes into contact with, that is its purpose.

As to the original question, I think it's impossible to determine whether Giuliani is worse than Bush right now. I don't like Giuliani, his rhetoric is unbelievably authoritarian and his constant use of his 'leadership after 9/11' puts me off. In my view, the man would have no chance in a presidential election if he were not mayor of New York City on that day.

-NC

[micfranklin]

Back on topic, Giuliani may be good in politics as a mayor but as President it can only lead to a dark future.

[Labrocca]

Please stay on topic..I had to move 24 posts to FP.

[tony28]

Maybe you should go to OnTheIssues.org or Wikipedia and read his stances here. They're more reliable.

I still think Drooliani is scum and I won't vote for him.


he definitely is scum. you should read on his history. firstly, for a guy that hails from the republican party, the mothership of 'family values' he's had three wives, married a cousin and cheated on his second one.

during 9/11 many groups such as the ny firefighters, you know the actual heroes testified that he was incompetent as mayor prior to and during the crises.

he was also affiliated with a pedophile and gave a corrupt friend a job that he wasnt qualified to do, that friend then ripped off taxpayers out of millions of dollars.

his company has also been involved in lobbying for a venezuelan oil company that has been found to have NOT been complying with u.s measures against terrorism. ironic considering he's mr 9.11.[/i]