Founding Fathers & religion

[firefox]

It has been said that many of the 'founding fathers' were Diests. Was this really true, or were some of them really agnostics or atheists that didn't feel that they could 'come out of the closet' back then? Please provide historical evidence, as I don't know of any either way...

[flaja]

What would you accept as historical evidence? If none of the Founders were willing to go public with their atheism/agnosticism, what possible evidence could they have left behind?

[Buck Laser]

What would you accept as historical evidence? If none of the Founders were willing to go public with their atheism/agnosticism, what possible evidence could they have left behind?

Jefferson was pretty outspoken about his agnosticism and his attitude toward the Bible. Seems to me he published an expurgated version, leaving out the more bloodthirsty portions of the OT--and probably the book of Revelation in the NT as well.

Benjamin Franklin was a renowned skeptic, but careful about his public image. He learned early in life that he didn't exactly fit in in his native Boston.

[flaja]

What would you accept as historical evidence? If none of the Founders were willing to go public with their atheism/agnosticism, what possible evidence could they have left behind?

Jefferson was pretty outspoken about his agnosticism and his attitude toward the Bible. Seems to me he published an expurgated version, leaving out the more bloodthirsty portions of the OT--and probably the book of Revelation in the NT as well.

Benjamin Franklin was a renowned skeptic, but careful about his public image. He learned early in life that he didn't exactly fit in in his native Boston.


Jefferson I am well aware of and despise. However, Franklin’s Deism is very much overblown by modern liberals. The Isaacson biography gives a good explanation for Franklin’s Deism- it was a product of his youth and inexperience in life and something that he utterly rejected in his later years. Try to investigate Franklin’s prayer motion at the Constitutional Convention and the letter that he wrote to Ezra Stiles just a few months before his death. Franklin eventually accepted the existence of Jesus Christ even if he never fully believed that Jesus Christ is God.

[Buck Laser]

You despise Jefferson? I'm a Christian--retired clergyman, in fact--and Thomas Jefferson is one of my favorite Americans, along with Ben Franklin. I don't think God ever gave me the right to condemn others to hell.

[flaja]

You despise Jefferson? I'm a Christian--retired clergyman, in fact--and Thomas Jefferson is one of my favorite Americans, along with Ben Franklin. I don't think God ever gave me the right to condemn others to hell.


Oh? So what was Paul doing when he declared “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) and “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23)?

And what about Paul’s declaration in I Corinthians 5:11 to 6:3?

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

It is always a Godly person’s duty and obligation to judge the ungodly.

[Deadshot]

Well most of the founding fathers were thought to have, at the very least, Deist sympathys. I consider myself a Deist so I did a little investigation.

Ben Franklin wrote in his autobiography "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.

Thomas Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" which pushed Deist ideals and the movement itself are mentioned in the book.

As to Jefferson and Washington there are mixed feelings and evidence. The reason for this, is like with most human beings, their lives are not Black and White.

Jefferson had a Bible and called himself a Christian. But his speechs were filled with Deist expressions and philosophies. Even those scholars, who do not think Jefferson was a Deist, acknowledged his respect and his favorable attitude towards Deism.

Washington, on the other hand, has almost nothing to show that he was a deist. But I mention him here because what is known about Washington is that he was incredibly tolerant in regards to Religion. In his own writing we have evidence that he didn't care if a person were a Jew, Christian or "Mohhamedian". He also gave orders that Catholics nor Jews were not be be harrassed during the War.

Other Americans like John Adams and James Madison, for example, are much like Jefferson. Not a proclaimed Deist, but a user of many of Deisms philosophies and tennents. By today's standards they would all consider themselves Christians, but they would be considered EXTREMELY tolerant ones. Their concern was for the peace, harmony, protection and profitablity of a nation, religion was a tool to enhance moral/honest character and not much more.

...but then if we talk about moral or honest character each of the founding fathers had many, many faults that were just as scandalous then as they would be now.:shock:

[Truth_and_Power]

It is always a Godly person’s duty and obligation to judge the ungodly.


So you believe being a muslim or a jew should be a crime?

[flaja]

It is always a Godly person’s duty and obligation to judge the ungodly.


So you believe being a muslim or a jew should be a crime?


When did I say this? I gather that since you cannot refute what I say with facts you try to change what I say to suit your needs.

I won’t say that Judaism or Islam should be outlawed, but as a Christian it is my obligation to tell these people that they are sinners and will go to Hell because they are not following Jesus Christ.