Most Powerful nations in all of history

[micfranklin]

What nation(s) do you think were the most powerful ones in all of history? It's only critical thinking and I'd make sure you base your answer on political, social, economic and military influences.

[Truth_and_Power]

Powerful on what scale? Compared to other nations existant at that time? Obviously the US is going to kick rome's butt because cavalry doesn't fare well against cruise missles.

[bobbylien]

Greece, Rome, Russia, USA(Go USA! heh), Great Britain, Spain, France, Persia(Iran), China, Japan(to a lesser degree), Babylon, India, Carthage, Egypt, Germany, Arabia.
I guess the USA is a tough one. Its tough to understand how history will view a nation that came to reign over the whole world within a 50 year time frame, that combined with the amazing scientific progress should secure us a pretty good spot in the group. Ooh, did I mention? USA is the best nation ever, because we are.

[Truth_and_Power]

Madagascar, Luxembourg, Atlantis, The Cherokee Nation

[Newscaster]

Luxembourg, Andorra and Vatican City.

[bobbylien]

How about... The Vatican?
I left out Mongolia on purpose BTW. They were barbarians, not a nation.
I guess a few that could be mentioned are the Incas, Zulu, Mali, Mayas and the Aztecs. None were really big powers though.

[Newscaster]

Most of the nations mentioned were world powers for a limited period of time. They eventually faded away. Look at Germany....major power for just under 12 years and the Third Reich was supposed to last for a thousand years. The United States has been around for 231 years but it was only since the era of WW2 that we became a world power.
China is big and powerful now but it wasnt always that way. The British were the world's biggest, but only for a while as the Empire began to fade after ww2. The same with so many other nations.
Now, I will really stir things up........in my estimation, the longest last major power has been Israel. Israel has been a nation for about three thousand years or so, sometimes a nation without borders but always a cohesive force to be reckoned with. For centuries, enemies have sought to destroy but each time, they failed. The Israelis (or Jews if yoiu will) are still here and more powerful tan ever before and dont think that little Lebanese war they had a few months back, is any indication of weakness. It was just an indication of military ineptness at the time.
The British publication, Janes, All The World's Armies, still liusts the IDF and IAF as among the most powerful, most effective and most efficient in the world and especially in the middle east. For those who dont know, Janes is the world's authority on all things military, armies, weapons and weapons systems, tactics, etc. They constantly grade the world's military forces and publish their findings on a yearly basis.

Now, military power is not the only kind of power that makes a country strong. Look at Japan. THeir army is structured on a defensive framework but their economic establishment is secpond to none. The Chinese are becoming economically stronger by the week but there is sloppiness and they could suffer the same fate as the Russians did or something close. The Russians themselves are in sad straits financially. Germany gets stronger, as does France. Venezuela is also becoming a power but with their volatile leader, their position could collapse at any time. And finally........Saudi Arabia's oil well are starting to dry up. While they dont talk about, they have begun injecting hot water into those wells to bring up what oil is left. Iraq believe it or not, could take its place.

So trying to determine who is or was the strongest nation in the world is a dangerous thing because power is fleeting. Some nations are fortunate to have the power for longer periods of time than others. The US is one that in all liklihood will remain powerful for a very long time and lets hope that the others who become powerhouses are friends of ours so that we dont have to go to war to prove anything.[hr]I mentioned the Vatican in my short post but keep in mind, if you are following he news carefully, there are indications thq Vatican is losing some of its authority over the faithful, especially in the area of what to think or say. So, they may be in for an upheaval.

[jafar00]

I don't think any list can be complete if it leaves out the Turkish Ottoman empire which lasted 800 years and spanned several continents.

[Uncle]

The word 'nation' in Latin, means 'race'. "One nation[ race] under God".
The most powerful country in the world currently is China. They have the means and the ability that supersedes anything that we of the U.S. have. They are also well connected with Russia. Must be why we don't fuck with them. Bullies only mess with little guys, (Iraq, etc.). Typical neocom(munist) shit.

[lily]

Lord help me, but I'm going to have to agree with Uncle. China. It's past history alone and the lands it conquered. It's inventions, it's discovories. The Great Wall and all it's defenses and means of communication.......hell leaders still look to The Art of War for strategy.

[Stoner]

Ancient Greece would be one I would look at compared to the rest of the world at the time.

[PatrickHenry]

Macedonia in the time of Alexander was unstoppable.

[bobbylien]

Well, i mean how can you not consider it based on how powerful the country was compared to other nations at its time.. otherwise a single Panzer division could probably destroy all of the roman legions.

[Truth_and_Power]

1. Rome - So many languages are based on latin.. it is still the international language of science. They revolutionized warfare and government. They had the largest economy the world had seen to that point, and the largest empire. They are responsible for the spread of one of the world's largest religions. The empire could be said to have lasted from about 300BC when they held all of the italian peninsula to 475ad (western empire). The fact that the eastern empire succeeded until 1453ad is another huge accomplishment.

2. America - Unprecedented cultural and economic influence, but for a very short time. America's music and movies travel the world over. The most powerful military in the world, hands down, and they do not look set to lose that title in the near future. If there is a "winner" in a nuclear conflict, the only nation with any chance of winning is america. Our weapons are newer, more accurate, and more reliable than any others, and we are the only country with a chance of defeating incoming missles. We have a large advanced sub fleet and are the only country with a decent chance of finding & stopping enemy subs near our borders.

3. Brittain - Globe spanning empire, spawned america, language dominance

4. Greece - Revolutionized the sciences and philosophy, their religion and ideals inspired rome, great military, they fell short by not progressing beyond a collection of city-states.

5. Ottoman - My knowledge of this empire is limited but they carried the torch of progress during the dark ages of europe, and it was a huge empire that lasted hundreds of years.

[flaja]

I don't think any list can be complete if it leaves out the Turkish Ottoman empire which lasted 800 years and spanned several continents.


As opposed to the British Empire, which extended over a time span of about 900 years (1066-1950) and at one time or another extended to 6 of the 7 habitable continents and most of the waterways in between and whose language is the universal 2nd language and which still maintains a navy that is second to one?

[flaja]

1. Rome - So many languages are based on latin..

In terms of the number of modern derivatives the Germanic languages likely outnumber the Romance languages. In terms of the number of people that use the languages, the Germanic family certainly outnumbers the Romance. English alone is used by more people than any other language except Chinese.

Furthermore, Latin was never the universal language of the Roman Empire; it wasn’t even a major language for most of Rome’s history. The Roman government used Latin, but outside of the city of Rome itself the language that practically everyone knew was Greek. Latin wasn’t even ever the universal language of the Church. It wasn’t used at all until the 4th century and it was never really used in the Eastern Roman Empire.

it is still the international language of science.

Actually, English is the universal language of science since this is the only language that most of the world’s scientists have in common. And much of the scientific vocabulary in English has Greek, not Latin, origins.

2. America - Unprecedented cultural and economic influence, but for a very short time.

But, this influence is still ongoing so it’s total impact cannot yet be judged.

America's music and movies travel the world over.

Not necessarily a good thing.

The most powerful military in the world, hands down,

A world class military doesn’t mean anything without effective leadership. America has had both only rarely and, sadly, this is not one of those rare times in history.

If there is a "winner" in a nuclear conflict, the only nation with any chance of winning is america.

On what do you base this conclusion? We can hardly survive a hurricane Hugo/Andrew/Katrina and you expect us to survive WW III?

We have a large advanced sub fleet and are the only country with a decent chance of finding & stopping enemy subs near our borders.

To my knowledge only Russia has a sub fleet that is likely to ever pose a threat to the U.S. and Russia generally sinks its own subs, thus saving us the trouble.

4. Greece - Revolutionized the sciences and philosophy, their religion and ideals inspired rome, great military, they fell short by not progressing beyond a collection of city-states.

Religion? I didn’t know that the world has many Zeus-worshippers left.

And note that Athens went from city-state to empire (Delian League), but still could not defeat the Spartans in the Peloponesian War.

5. Ottoman - My knowledge of this empire is limited but they carried the torch of progress during the dark ages of europe, and it was a huge empire that lasted hundreds of years.


Most (if not all) historians credit the Moslems with preserving Grecco-Roman learning because the Moslems supposedly preserved Greek texts by translating them into Arabic. However, the Koine Greek that the New Testament was written in is still known, read and understood by the modern Greeks. Greek died out in most of the Islamic empire where it had been spoken, but it did not die out in Greece itself even after Constantinople fell to the Turks. Chances are any Greek text that was “preserved” by the Moslems could have just as easily been preserved by the Byzantine Greeks.

[David Hume]

I'd say the two most powerful would be the Vatican and Israel. Both nations use the U.S. as its own personal tool to further its goals. Take the Supreme Court of the U.S. The five conservatives are all Roman Catholic and consistently decide matters strictly along the lines of Catholic doctrine (though they'd never admit it). And U.S. foreign policy is completely predicated on the desires of the nation of Israel. The U.S. government is full of Zionists, and seeing bumper-stickers declaring the U.S. the "protector" of Israel is a common enough occurence. Considering that the U.S. spends more on weapons than all of the other world's nations combined, and considering that the U.S. does only what is in the interest of the Vatican and/or Israel, I guess that'd make Israel & the Vatican the most powerful nations on earth. Ever.

[Truth_and_Power]

I'd say the two most powerful would be the Vatican and Israel. Both nations use the U.S. as its own personal tool to further its goals. Take the Supreme Court of the U.S. The five conservatives are all Roman Catholic and consistently decide matters strictly along the lines of Catholic doctrine (though they'd never admit it). And U.S. foreign policy is completely predicated on the desires of the nation of Israel. The U.S. government is full of Zionists, and seeing bumper-stickers declaring the U.S. the "protector" of Israel is a common enough occurence. Considering that the U.S. spends more on weapons than all of the other world's nations combined, and considering that the U.S. does only what is in the interest of the Vatican and/or Israel, I guess that'd make Israel & the Vatican the most powerful nations on earth. Ever.


[split] Conspiracy Theories[hr]flaja - nice response.

Modern english is largely composed of latin words. I understand it is a germanic base.
http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/t16.html

As for greek philosophy, not only did they coin the word, but many of their theories are as revolutionary today as they ever were. I still constantly find myself coming back to plato in the cave. You know a society has produced a great philosopher when they execute him. ;-}

It's true that the greek religion is not really followed nowadays, but its influence can still be seen, for example in the names of the planets (roman religion, derived from the greek). Like so much of greek culture, you don't see its influence as much now because it has been so thoroughly integrated into all modern cultures.

On the topic of the US surviving a nuclear .. ahem.. nucular attack, it would not be "survive" in the standard dont-make-the-stock-market-drop kind of way. It would be a phyrric (sp? hmm phyrrhus of epirus?) victory to say the least.

[David Hume]

Hmm, nice, simply dismiss as "conspiracy theories" with no discussion whatsoever.

How very nice.

[Newscaster]

Gosh, I love the way the word Zionist is tossed around as though a Zionist is akin to Typhoid Mary. Most people have a sketchy view of Zionism and believe it is some evil empire out to conquor the world. It is not. But just remember, Israel is one of our closest allies, providing us with intelligence information, weapons development, high tech advances and also a country filled to the brim with American/Isaraelis. (Dual citizenship is allowed in Isr.) And from a whole laundry list of perspectives, Israel is one of the most important nations of the world, providing more than its share of technical, financial, agricultural, business advances than most every other nation in the world. The smart diplomat, realizing the importance of Israel, does NOT work to destroy agreements, treaties and simple friendly contacts but works instead to enhance them.

[flaja]

[quote]Modern english is largely composed of latin words. I understand it is a germanic base.
http://dictionary.reference.com/help/faq/language/t16.html

If I had to bet, I’d say that the vocabulary of modern English is based mostly on French- which is a Romantic Language and thus has a Latin base.

You should also note that modern English does not have a universal vocabulary. The words that American English derived from Spanish (another Romantic Language) or from American Indian languages would not likely be readily recognized in Great Britain while some words used in Britain are not in everyday use in America. I couldn’t say how large the English vocabulary would be if you confined it to words that everyone who speaks English would know.

BTW: I studied German for 5 years in high school and I learned as much about how English worked by taking German as I did by taking language arts and English lit for 12 years.

As for greek philosophy, not only did they coin the word, but many of their theories are as revolutionary today as they ever were. I still constantly find myself coming back to plato in the cave. You know a society has produced a great philosopher when they execute him. ;-}

Aren’t you thinking of Socrates? To my knowledge Plato wasn’t executed.

During the 16th or 17th century there was an academic dispute in England regarding the adoption of scientific words that had Latin and Greek roots. Some scholars didn’t mind using Latin and Greek, but others wanted to use only Saxon roots. This is the real genius of English- it can be all things to all people.

It's true that the greek religion is not really followed nowadays, but its influence can still be seen, for example in the names of the planets (roman religion, derived from the greek).[/quotes]

These names are not a modern convention. They were in use in Greco-Roman times. English speakers simply didn’t bother to change them. Again this is the genius of English. English has no qualms about seizing the words of other languages and making them there own. German, on the other hand, is a snobbish language. I’ll give you an example:

The English word hippopotamus is derived from the Greek word for river and the Greek word for horse, thus “river horse”. The German word for the same animal is Flusspferd- from the German words for river and horse. The Germans seldom adapt other languages to their own use.

[quote]On the topic of the US surviving a nuclear .. ahem.. nucular attack, it would not be "survive" in the standard dont-make-the-stock-market-drop kind of way. It would be a phyrric (sp? hmm phyrrhus of epirus?) victory to say the least.


My thoughts exactly.

[Truth_and_Power]

Yes, I was referring to socrates. I didn't think I needed to spell it all out. The two are fairly inseperable, to me atleast.

[flaja]

Yes, I was referring to socrates. I didn't think I needed to spell it all out. The two are fairly inseperable, to me atleast.


Pretty much, but we inhabit a board that like so many others is equally inhabited by the ignorant and the uneducated. It isn’t wise for us, the intelligent, learned ones, to make simple mistakes- others may not know the difference and thus take our mistakes as fact.

[David Hume]

Gosh, I love the way the word Zionist is tossed around as though a Zionist is akin to Typhoid Mary. Most people have a sketchy view of Zionism and believe it is some evil empire out to conquor the world. It is not. But just remember, Israel is one of our closest allies, providing us with intelligence information, weapons development, high tech advances and also a country filled to the brim with American/Isaraelis. (Dual citizenship is allowed in Isr.) And from a whole laundry list of perspectives, Israel is one of the most important nations of the world, providing more than its share of technical, financial, agricultural, business advances than most every other nation in the world. The smart diplomat, realizing the importance of Israel, does NOT work to destroy agreements, treaties and simple friendly contacts but works instead to enhance them.


Another common tool employed by those with no defense is to pull out the "this poster is simply ignorant of the real situation and relies only on a single term (in this case, Zionist) to speak on matters of which he has little knowledge" card.

But you see, Mr. Newscaster, this thread is not about whether or not Zionism exists or to what degree it exists; it is about the most powerful nations on earth. In one simple paragraph I've layed out how the Vatican & Israel manipulate & control the U.S. government at multiple levels to further their own agendas. Of course, the U.S. does in fact gain from such alliances as well.

But from your post, it would seem as if you're dismissing the notion of Zionism out of hand. I make a distinction between being Jewish & being a Zionist. They most assuredly are separate, in that a person can be a Zionist without being a Jew, and not all Jews are Zionists. Capiche?

Finally, if you want to start a thread about Zionism, do so. We'll discuss it there. Simply point the way. But let's leave this thread on track. Which is to say that the Vatican & Israel are the most powerful nations in the world at this (or any) time.[hr]PS: I assure you that my notion of Zionism is far from "sketchy." ;)

[Newscaster]

Okay...you want to talk about world class strength. Israel is considered to be one of the strongest nations in the world, militarily, financially, and several other categories. And in one sentence, you sir, showed you really have no clue. You hgave this bogus idea that Israel manipulated Washington. Having been an Air Force officer stations in both Washington and Tel Aviv, I am fully informed on relations between the two countries. As I have said before when you have to lead a defensive life style year round because you are surrounded by those who seek your destruction, you tend to get stronger and smarter. Now, allow me to point out some things about Israel so maybe you will understand.

*****

These are facts, not conjecture.


During a reception at the home of a leading columnist for the London Daily Telegraph, Daniel Bernard, French ambassador to England, told guests that the world’s current troubles were all the fault of “…that shitty little country, Israel.”

“Why,” he asked, “should the world be in danger of World War Three because of those people?”

Of course, for hypocrisy and anti-Semitism, there’s no one like the French… after all, they’re the same folks who wouldn’t allow their German conquerors during World War II to trouble themselves to round up the
Jews in France… so the French happily and dutifully rounded them up themselves, and turned them over to the Germans…

But… is Israel really a “shitty little country”? A closer look would reveal that France should follow the Israeli example. After all… Israel, the 100th smallest country in the world, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest Air Force in the world (after the U.S., Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the Silicon Valley, U. S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the U.S.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the camera, helps doctors diagnose heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave Desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other county on earth.

And unlike France, Israel actually wins its wars.

************************************************** *******************
So, this is the country you believe you know all about. This is the country you believe needs to manipulate Washington to get what it needs. Actually, I am surprised you did not mention what others in your camp love to bring up........all the American money that goes to Israel. Well, first, US funds are in the form of loan guarantees that are paid back by Israel on time with with full interest. Any other money come from private organizations, mostly Jewish, who do not require pay back.

You see my friend.....most people who bring up Zionism, almost always have another reason for doing so and use Tel Aviv-Washington Relations as a crutch.
Oh, and by th way, Washington and Tel Aviv just signed another major agreement between the two countries. Have a nice day.

[David Hume]

You proved my point. Israel is one of the strongest nations on earth. I did bring up Zionism for a very valid reason----it is Zionism that allows all of the things you mentioned above to fluorish.

PS: Your "credentials" aren't all that impressive, BTW. ;)

Have a nice day yourself. :)

[Newscaster]

David........first, tell me about my credentials. What do you know about them?

Second......Zionism was a political drive to establish a permanent home for Jews on the land that has been their traditional home. Now that Israel exists, Zionism is not what you imagine it to be. And the things that make Israel flourish are.....Israelis and Jews around the world. Dont try to characterize people you dont know.

[David Hume]

No, you were the one boasting of your cred ("lookatme, I'm an officer in the military & lived in Israel, therefore, I'm now qualified to run the State Department").

That's what I know of your "cred."

You haven't a clue as to the nature of Zionism. You act as if I'm using it as a perjorative, when in fact I speak of it as a modern political movement. Nothing less, nothing more. This thread is about most powerful nation on earth; I postulate that Israel is among them. You want to rant about Zionism not being real. That's not the point of this thread. This is the second time I ask of you----if you want to talk about Zionism, start a thread & invite me to participate.

I'll gladly post there. ;)

[firefox]

The word 'nation' in Latin, means 'race'. "One nation[ race] under God".
The most powerful country in the world currently is China. They have the means and the ability that supersedes anything that we of the U.S. have. They are also well connected with Russia. Must be why we don't fuck with them. Bullies only mess with little guys, (Iraq, etc.). Typical neocom(munist) shit.


True, but "race" then didn't have the purely geneological connotation that it does today. Until the Enlightenment, race meant one's ethnic/national group, which could consist of individuals from various heritages.

[Newscaster]

Yes, I am a former military officer but there is more to it than that and I will not go into it but my experience in Israel was far from being a tourist or just comeone on duty there. You do not know anything about my credentials and I will still maintain that your idea of Zionism is connected to person impressions of the people involved with that political movement. You will niot change my mind on thatso I suggest you dont waste you time.

[Questerr]

I don't think any list can be complete if it leaves out the Turkish Ottoman empire which lasted 800 years and spanned several continents.


As opposed to the British Empire, which extended over a time span of about 900 years (1066-1950) and at one time or another extended to 6 of the 7 habitable continents and most of the waterways in between and whose language is the universal 2nd language and which still maintains a navy that is second to one?


Great Britain wasn't even Britain until King James united the Kingdoms, so it's hard to say that the British Empire started in 1066. Hell, until the Capetian dynasty died out in France, the English King was still a subject in the French Court.

[Newscaster]

David Hume wrote:

" Israel is one of the strongest nations on earth. I did bring up Zionism for a very valid reason----it is Zionism that allows all of the things you mentioned above to fluorish."

Gosh David, I forgot to respond to this line of yours. You dont seem to understand that Zionism was, at one time, the guiding force that lead to the eventual establishment of the State of Israel. But when Israel became a reality, Zionism's role changed to that of support. In addition, the size of what is left of the original Zionist Org has decreased greatly. If you want to discuss an Israeli Organiztion that deals with Wasjington.....talk about AIPAC. AIPAC is the political muscle of the Israelis and they are the ones who deal with Washigton. In fact, Washington just soigned a major agreement with the Israelis that is both technical and financial. The agreement is just one of many established because of a realization that Israel can do things that benefit the world that other nations cannot do. You saw the list I put up earlier in this thread. Read it again. Thats why the Israelis and the USA are tight. Another reason is the fact that so many American Jews have moved to Israel and the ties are still as strong as ever.
Now I am sure you are mostly upset over the financial ties. Keep in mind, money from Washington is NOT in the forn of cash. It is in the form of loan guarantees that carry interest. Those loans have consistently been paid back, on time and with interest....something that no other country in the world has done. Secondly, other money that goes to Israel comes from private donors or organizations. Are you saying they may not do what they want with their own money? But there is a new and huge supporter of Israel...I refer to Fundamentalist Christians who are pouring thousands about hundreds of thousand of dollars into Israel. Do you know why? Its because they think if they save Israel, then all Jews will move there and Jesus will finally return.
But as I have said before......Israel has much to offer America from almost every aspect of life. Thats why it is imperative to have them as friends. And the mere fact of their strength militarily is what has been keeping the middle east from exploding. The arabs have tried many times to eliminate the Israelis and have failed and it has been extremely embarrassing to them. They cannot afford another loss. And no, the little squabble they had with Hezbollah in Lebanon was not a victory for the arabs. So the score is still Israel 7, Arabs 0. and you better hope it stays that way.

[flaja]

Great Britain wasn't even Britain until King James united the Kingdoms, so it's hard to say that the British Empire started in 1066. Hell, until the Capetian dynasty died out in France, the English King was still a subject in the French Court.


The Saxons have been a force to be reckoned with ever since they first conquered Roman Britain. They were important enough to marry the children of Charlemagne (Elizabeth II is his direct descendant).

Under Alfred the Great the Saxons managed to stop Danish expansion and Harold II ended the Viking Era completely just before he himself fell to William the Conqueror in 1066.

And if you were an Englishman under the Normans, especially since the time of Edward I, you considered both Scotland and Wales to be rightful possessions of England.

But even if Great Britain didn't exist as a political entity until the Stuarts took the throne of England (James VI of Scotland was a direct descendant of Henry VII, King of England), the English, under the Anglo-Norman nobles, usually held sway over as much of France as the King of France did.

BTW: Wales was an integral component of England since the time of Henry VII, who was part Welsh on his father’s side. But the political union of England and Scotland didn’t come about until around 1702- almost a century after James VI inherited the throne of England. James styled himself King of Great Britain, but the countries had separate parliaments until the Act of Union.

Also, even though William the Conqueror and his immediate heirs were the feudal serfs of the King of France, the King of France had not had enough power to enforce his will over the King of England since the time of William the Conqueror. And because of subsequent marriages and treaties and wars the King of England ended up with as much legal claim to the throne of France as the French did. And after the Glorious Revolution the deposed tyrant James II sought refuge in France- meaning that there were 3 different men who claimed the throne of France- the Louis du jour in Paris, the Jacobite refugee James II and William IV/Mary II in London. It wasn't until the time of George III (or it may have been I or II, I cannot remember at the moment) that the king of England gave up his hereditary claim to the throne of France.

[Questerr]

I agree with all these points, but you have to admit that a true English (or British) Empire did not exist until around the time of the Armada.

[flaja]

I agree with all these points, but you have to admit that a true English (or British) Empire did not exist until around the time of the Armada.


Historically speaking the first British possession outside of the British Isles and Europe didn’t come until 1607 when the Jamestown Colony in Virginia was settled and by then the British no longer held any territory on the European Continent.

The first exploration of the New World on England’s behalf came early in the 16th century when Henry VII sent out Henry Hudson. But for the rest of that century England was too busy dealing with the Reformation, the succession to the throne and the Spanish threat to make any serious effort to colonies the New World. On the surface it appeared as if England/Britain was to be a second class nation in comparison to Spain and France. But the 16th Century also saw an explosion in economic activity that made England/Britain one of the richest countries on earth while the economies of Spain and France were ruined by constant warfare and especially for Spain inflation that was caused by the influx of massive amounts of New World gold. Britain’s wealth provided the tool needed to begin forging a worldwide empire.

[David Hume]

@ Newscaster.

First, AIPAC=Zionism.

Second, I don't use the word "Zionist" as a pejorative. I simply use a term many self-described "Israel First" types use to describe themselves.

Third, why do you think I hate Israel? Where did I ever say that?

Fourth, I don't begrudge someone making a dollar. Your assumption re: $$$$ is a wrong one.

And finally, fifth, I'm still waiting for you to start that Zionism thread & invite me to participate.

PS: Sixth, in order to get this thread back on track, I return to my original statement about Israel being one of the strongest nations on earth. Ever.

[Newscaster]

David, I dont have an axe to grind or an agenda to follow. So if you are going to wait until I establish a thread for us to debate, better bring a good book with you. The wait might get a bit long. I do not seek to get into a semantic war with you over a subject, the outcome of which we will not change.

[David Hume]

Ah, so you admit that I am right and you are wrong. That's very big of you. Many men are incapable of admitting when they've made a mistake. But I can see that you are a quality human being & I commend you. :clapper::clapper::clapper::clapper:

Your friend,

"Wavy" Davey Hume :thumbsup:

[preservanation]

David, I dont have an axe to grind or an agenda to follow. So if you are going to wait until I establish a thread for us to debate, better bring a good book with you. The wait might get a bit long. I do not seek to get into a semantic war with you over a subject, the outcome of which we will not change.

I do not assign myself with Mr News Casters opinions, but I respect him.

clappy hands will not effectively refute his points.

[David Hume]

I do not assign myself with Mr News Casters opinions, but I respect him.

clappy hands will not effectively refute his points.


Nope, but common sense does quite well. ;)

To say Zionism isn't a real phenonemon is, well, just silly.

[Newscaster]

David, I never said Zionism is not a real phenomenon. I said Zionism had a role to place in the 19th and 20th centuries but the goals they hoped to achieve, have been achieved and the role of zionism is different today. But you assign to Zionists a role they no longer play. Aipac does not equal Zionism. For one reason, Zionists were not lobbyists in the way AIPAC is. Zionists sought to establish a homeland for Jews. AIPAC works to maintain that homeland. It is true AIPAC is a powerful group. They have influence in Washington to a degree that other groups do not have but are they to apologize for being effective and knowing how to achieve their goals. Any other country to simply love to be able to operate like AIPAC does.
Finally, the United States and Israel are two nations of this world that have had the most beneficial effects on other countries when it comes to advancements in medicine, science and other similar field and if that is bad, then I have no idea what you would consider good.
Why dont you look up the list of countries that maintain political, diplomatic and technical ties with Israel and ask why they do this? Consider where this world would be if there was no Israel and all the advances they created did not exist.

And you may clap your hands all you like.

[David Hume]

Again, Newscaster, you continue to miss my point. Nowhere did I say Israel was evil for having Zionists support it. I simply pointed out that Zionists are quite successful at what they do, thus making Israel one of the most powerful nations on earth.

AIPAC is simply Zionism's newest guise. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend? I thought you were a Middle East specialist. When you posted your resume here, you assumed some authority over the topic. Should I instead start calling you Joseph Ellis?

[Newscaster]

No David, I did not miss your point. I know you did not say Israel is evil because of Zionism.....you indicated that it is Zionism that is evil or some other similar term.
Its you missing the point because frankly, you know about Zionism because of what you may have picked up talking to others who also do not understand.

David, actually, I am bored with this exchange. You attitude toward Zionism or Israel will change nothing. When you have a nation completely surrounded by other nations seeking your obliteration you have a lot more on your mind than an online debate. The Israelis have been forced by their charming neighbors to lead a defensive life. They are under attack on a daily basis and their very lives are at stake. And I assure you, they will do whatever they feel they have to do to stay alive and to move forward whether you or their neighbors like it or not. Thats called Survival. They have been successful so far for some 60 years or so. There is only one thing that will prompt them to change and thats for the neighboring Aran countries to renounce their vows to destroy Israel and instead work with the Israelis to modernize a part of the world that is in desparate need of moderization.

Aran nations have very little to offer the world. There is no heavy industry, there are no world renowned centers of learning, argriculture is minimal, and the oil wells are starting to show signs of running dry, even in Saudi Arabia where they are finding it necessary to inject steam into the wells. This means many wells are pumping sludge. Arab militrary talks a good game but is not as effective as they would like, even against tiny Israel.

Almost from day one, the Israel have been calling on the arabs to put down the guns and work with them to bring their countries into the 21st century. But that doesnt seem to work, so the Israelis will be forced to continue as before.
But dont get so upset over Zionism. The slogan in arab countries should be the words that came from an old comic strip called Pogo. "We have seen the enemy and they is us."

And now, for me........this discussion is over. You may continue talking if you like.

[David Hume]

Well, I could NEVER let you have the last word.

I'll close by saying. . .you STILL don't get it. And you've attempted again to manipulate what I ACTUALLY said. Nice try though. Ta-ta.

[tony mitra]

Good topic.

The British Empire, usually considered to be the grandest at its peak, encompassing about a quarter of the planet's landmass, apparently did not start out as an empire, but as an expanding sphere of trading rights, controlled by what we might today call global corporations. Hudson Bay Company of Canada and the East India Company of India comes to mind.

So, in many ways, the British Empire was run by the first emerging global Corporations, who had their own armies and power to make treaties directly with nations, governments, and kings, including toppling an uncooperative head of state and replacing him with a friendlier one. Always, priority was made to have maximum access for trade in favor of British industry, even if it unfairly shut out local and other competitors.

Today, the US is often considered to be an Empire and the age considered to be the age of an American Empire. I do not know if in future folks will consider it as a military empire or a trade empire, but loose comparison between the British Empire and the current one might give food for thought on current global corporatocracy. In short, the empire might be more to do with the might of multinational corporations, than any individual nation, and the role of the US Govt might be more as a follower of the Corporatocracy, rather than the leader.

Anyhow, these might be hotly debated issues of the future generation, when they can look at it from a distance.

Good topic nonetheless.
:cool: