Chavez seeks end to term limits

[BoogyMan]

What a great guy! Want to see someone trying to become an emperor? Look no further than Hugo Chavez.


Source Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6932605.stm

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has confirmed that he will try to change the law to allow him to remain in power indefinitely.

Under the current constitution, Mr Chavez will have to leave office at the end of his term in 2012.

But he says he wants to remain in power for as long as Venezuelans continue to support him.

The constitution is under review and Mr Chavez is expected to make changes to cement in law his socialist revolution.

'People decide'

The details have so far been kept under wraps, but Mr Chavez has confirmed what many people expected - that he will be seeking to remain in power continuously.

"It will be the people who make the final decision about how long I stay," he said on his weekly TV show Hello President.

He said this is something that happens in many European and Asian countries and that it should not be seen as a threat.

But opponents disagree. They are concerned that this could lead to abuse of power.

The new constitution will be put before parliament within the next 10 days.

Later this year, there will be a referendum allowing Venezuelans to decide whether to accept the changes.

[Professor]

I'm not very familiar with the Venezuelan government, but this does send up some red flags. Just because it is common in European and Asian counties (so he says) doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

His popularity could dramatically change by 2012. I hope they leave the laws the way they are.

[December]

GOD BLESS HUGE CHAVEZ!!!

:D

Venezuela opposed to U.S. missile shield in Europe - Chavez

28/ 06/ 2007


MOSCOW, June 28 (RIA Novosti) - Venezuela supports Russia's opposition to the deployment of a U.S missile shield in Europe, President Hugo Chavez said Thursday.

"The U.S. is planning to deploy its missile shield in Europe, and Russia is against it," Chavez said during his current visit to Russia, adding that Venezuela is in agreement with Moscow on the issue.

The U.S. proposed in January deploying 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a missile defense radar in the Czech Republic as part of a proposed missile shield designed to counter alleged threats from "rogue states" such as Iran and North Korea.

Russia, infuriated by the idea of a U.S. missile shield on the territories of its former ally states, has repeatedly condemned the plan, claiming that it could be a "destabilizing factor" and threaten Russia's national security. Moscow warned the West that "appropriate measures" would be taken in response.

"We support Russia [in its stance], we need Russia, which is becoming stronger day by day," he said, adding that Venezuela intended to continue cooperating closely with Moscow, including in the military sphere.

Russia has repeatedly stated that it would actively participate in the modernization of the Venezuelan armed forces until 2013.

In 2005-2006, Venezuela ordered weaponry from Russia worth $3.4 billion, including 24 Su-30MK2V Flanker fighters, Tor-M1 air defense missile systems, Mi-17B multi-role helicopters, Mi-35 Hind E attack helicopters and Mi-26 Halo heavy transport helicopters.

The country also purchased 100,000 AK-103 Kalashnikov assault rifles from Russia in 2005 and sent its fighter and helicopter pilots for training in Russia.

Russian business daily Kommersant said in June that during his visit to Russia, Hugo Chavez could finalize a deal to purchase Russian diesel submarines for the Venezuelan Navy. The contract reportedly is for the supply of five Project 636 Kilo-class diesel submarines and four state-of-the-art Project 677 Amur submarines.

The South American country has been vigorously pursuing the modernization of its armed forces to counter a possible U.S. blockade of its oil fields and to prepare for a direct military confrontation with Washington.

"If the United States attacks Venezuela, we are ready to die defending our sacred land," Chavez said Thursday.

He also said the world must change and adopt a multi-polar model of political development.

"If that does not happen, then humankind might disappear. We cannot allow that to happen. Either we defeat American imperialism, or imperialism defeats us," the Venezuelan president said.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070628/67980682.html

http://img.rian.ru/images/5195/19/51951933.jpg


http://img.rian.ru/images/6818/85/68188569.jpg

During the visit Hugo Chavez had a warm meeting with members of the Russian parliament.

http://img.rian.ru/images/6818/85/68188503.jpg

Russia and Venezuela, which account for a substantial part of global oil production, should coordinate oil prices and consider joint oil projects, the Venezuelan president said at a meeting in the lower house of Russia’s parliament.

http://img.rian.ru/images/6818/95/68189589.jpg

After his meeting with President Vladimir Putin, Hugo Chavez said Russia and Venezuela were ready to give a fresh boost to bilateral relations. He said he had invited President Putin to Venezuela

[BoogyMan]

December, what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[PatrickHenry]

It's worthwhile to note what foreign leaders are up to. But don't forget that we in the US are much more affected by what the rulers of Washington do...

Chavez is small potatoes compared to the fight to preserve our liberties in the US...

[December]

December, what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?


I support Hugo Chavez - he is a good man who works FOR PEOPLE.
But dudes like you hate the guy because he simply don't want to be an American slave.

And also - GOD BLESS RUSSIA FOR PROTECTING HUGO CHAVEZ!!!

:D

http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=5706

[ttriber]

December, what exactly does this have to do with the topic at hand?


I support Hugo Chavez - he is a good man who works FOR PEOPLE.
But dudes like you hate the guy because he simply don't want to be an American slave.

And also - GOD BLESS RUSSIA FOR PROTECTING HUGO CHAVEZ!!!

:D

http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=5706



Hugo chavez a good man??? More like a man who should be named Castro's Mini-me. He has replaced every single one of his news stations with his own propraganda. A man who is leading his people towards Castro's type of Dictatorship and you're gonna support this man. Are you being sarcastic or is this how you really feel about the man?

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed040505a.cfm
A man who is stirring the security pot, sowing fear among its neighbors. From Russia, Chavez is buying 50 advanced MiG-29 fighters, 40 helicopter gunships and 100,000 AK-47 assault rifles. He's also bought arms from Spain and Brazil.

A cashiered former army colonel, Chavez also plans to increase the size of the army reserve as "an honorable answer to President Bush's intention of being the master of the world.


There's also the possibility that some of el presidente's new "toys," especially the AK-47s and ammunition, could fall into the hands of Colombian FARC narcoterrorists.

The FARC is seeking to overthrow the government of Colombian President Alvaro Uribe. Bogota received some $3 billion in U.S. assistance over the last several years to support its fight against narcotraffickers and leftist rebel groups.

Chavez is rumored to be supporting the FARC, letting it use the Colombian-Venezuelan border area to recuperate and resupply.

This is a man who works for his people's destruction. What the hell does he need these weapons for when their is obviously no need for war against the USA since their busy in Iraq. The man wants to rule South America as soon as he can with his spread of weaponry and soon to come communism. It's also pretty obvious I mean look how many have fled since he has come to power.

In 1998, the year Chavez was first elected, just 14 Venezuelans were granted U.S. asylum. That number jumped to 1,086 in the 12 months ending September 30, according to the latest figures from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

The number's are staggering and living here in Miami I can tell you that there is more and more coming.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070716/lf_nm/usa_venezuela_asylum_correction_dc_1

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/193841

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Chavez isn't good for Venezuela, one bit.
2. He will drag the whole Country backwards.
3. And ruin his Nation.
4. Watch this train wreck in action.
5. Its basically a test case, hell look at Cuba!
6. Look at Russia, most Russian would shoot themselves in the head if they could afford a gun and a bullet.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[lily]

Is it just me, or did all this hatred of Chavez start when he turned down Bush on CAFTA?

[Labrocca]

If Bush attempted this same act the same people rooting for Chavez would rush to washington in violent protest. Man we have some self-hating Americans in this country.

[ttriber]

I'm sorry to spoil your eggs but I don't think this has to do with what Chavez has said towards Bush, but more towards what he is doing towards his country.

[Fushar]

I support Hugo Chavez - he is a good man who works FOR PEOPLE.
But dudes like you hate the guy because he simply don't want to be an American slave.

And also - GOD BLESS RUSSIA FOR PROTECTING HUGO CHAVEZ!!!

:D

http://www.democracyforums.com/showthread.php?tid=5706


You got to be kidding me. The first question im gonna make is ask where are you from?. Do you live in Venezuela because I do and I can tell first hand that Chavez doesnt give a .... for the people. All he cares about is power and the destruction of all institutions and private companies so he can become the dictator of Venezuela and of some latin american countries. And I said "some latin american countries" because he already controls Bolivia, Nicaragua and is also expanding his influence in Ecuador. All of these countries are his puppets and they are following Chavez steps, the same way Chavez is following Castro´s bloody steps.

Also those weapons, helicopters, migs, etc, that he is buying is not to confront the USA, he knows he would lose against the USA, thats why he fears the USA (this is true). Hes buying those weapons to become more powerful in this country, to intimidate other countries in the region and keep more and better control of the population. Good part of the Venezuelan army is against him and his socialism, thats why many of his right hand generals have either betrayed him or quitted because they are against what chavez is doing. But they cant overthrow him because these weapons are held by the cubans and the militias loyal to Chavez. Thats right, he is keeping the cubans very well armed to avoid being overthrown by the venezuelan army which he doesnt trust. Just a part of the army supports him and those are the criminals and the cubans he has infiltrated.

There have been many ocasions in which the people have revolted against him (april 11 2002, which lead to the military to take over due to the disaster that happened that day, but it was the people who overthrowed him), (February-March 2004, where people went to the streets and chavez government almost collapsed but some infiltrated politicians who now are known to be playing chavez´s game betrayed the people), (and may-june 2007 when Chavez closed down a tv station that was independent, all the students in many cities of venezuela went to the streets and a lot of chaos was created but it was too late, chavez now controls everything).

I could be more specific and explain everything well, but the point is that chavez is hated even by the poor people. The only people who love him are the lazy, resented people who never worked and never did anything good for their lives and now they have chavez who is fucking and destroying everyone and taking over the propierties of people who did work for their stuff.

For example, there are many farms (I dont remember the exact word, since english isnt my main language), you know the places where you get the milk and the meat from the cows in the country side. There were many private farms (of that type) that were VERY productive, and chavez took them by force and now they are not producing anything because everyone in the government are corrupted incompetents who are only there to get rich and do nothing. Because of that there is lack of goods, meals, milk, cheese, meat, etc. Theres shortage of that stuff. The poor people have to make LONG rows waiting to get their stuff, and IF they find it.

There are many more examples but ill just leave it there.

Chavez is no good, he is not the "champion of the poor", I would say hes the champion of the lazy resented corrupted bastards who like destroying countries just for their greedy pleasure of staying in power for life.

Fuck Chavez!


Sorry bout that,

1. Chavez isn't good for Venezuela, one bit.
2. He will drag the whole Country backwards.
3. And ruin his Nation.
4. Watch this train wreck in action.
5. Its basically a test case, hell look at Cuba!
6. Look at Russia, most Russian would shoot themselves in the head if they could afford a gun and a bullet.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


I would like to add:
1) Not good at all.
2) He already did.
3) He also already ruined us. When he took control of the Oil company (PDVSA) he put in charge only ignorant people who didnt know about it. For example, he put as "Head of the Production" a person who only had experience in other stuff that had nothing to do with production. An example can be if you put a Soccer goalkeeper to be the pitcher of you baseball team. He did things like this because he fired the experts of the company because they were against chavez ideas and he replaced them with ignorant people who dont know shit about it. For this the venezuelan oil production is declining. The big extracting-oil tools are being damaged because the people in charge are ignorants. Imagine if you put in charge of the NASA people who never studied and dont know about space, aircrafts, etc. They are there just because they support chavez and dont care about the country.
4) Its already crashed.
5) Indeed.
6) Dont know about russians, but cubans are willing to risk their lives to the sharks by navegating on rafts just to get out of that hell-prison-island. And Venezuela is following that road.

[PatrickHenry]

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

I don't know if you are aware of it, (many aren't) but GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America just now.

He is ruling the nation under a State of Emergency, since September 11. 2001. What he says, goes...

[Labrocca]

FYI I just confirmed that Fushar IP is from Venezuala in case there is doubt to his statement.

GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America

That doesn't compare to an actual dictator which is exactly what Chavez is trying to do. People are so caught up on Bush and the PR against him that they are not taking notice of the real attrocities that are occuring to democracy around the world. You can blame Bush for that if you like.

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200409080559
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/29/222820.shtml

Remember this is a guy that took Venezuala via a military coup...same as his dictator buddy Castro. Now maybe there is nothing wrong with being a dictator but you seem against it with Bush. So what's wrong with Chavez consolidating his power?

Either you believe dictators are bad or good. Which is it? If you can't see the latest move by Chavez as a consolidation toward fascist power then you are really just fooling yourself and not us. I call it as it is and so does the rest of the world.

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has confirmed that he will try to change the law to allow him to remain in power indefinitely.

As I said..if Bush even HINTED at doing something like this I guarantee you that public outcry would be defeaning. Since this is the socialist liberal favorite there is barely a whisper. Hmm...

[PatrickHenry]

GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America

That doesn't compare to an actual dictator which is exactly what Chavez is trying to do. So you say. As do most of the lying rightist media in America. But they will say that against any leader who defies the US. Maybe you have forgotten Savador Allende? And his replacement, through CIA action, by the repulsive dictator, Pinochet?

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200409080559
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/29/222820.shtml

Remember this is a guy that took Venezuala via a military coup...same as his dictator buddy Castro.I suggest you do a bit more research before making any more embarrassing mistakes of this type. Chavez coup FAILED. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_chavez#Coup_attempt_of_1992
And he was elected President in 1998.

Now maybe there is nothing wrong with being a dictator but you seem against it with Bush. So what's wrong with Chavez consolidating his power?

Either you believe dictators are bad or good. Which is it? If you can't see the latest move by Chavez as a consolidation toward fascist power then you are really just fooling yourself and not us. I call it as it is and so does the rest of the world.You call it as you see it. That doesn't make it "as it is..." Dictatorships are a bad thing, in Latin America and elsewhere. I have no use for authoritarian regimes. But often two such regimes will oppose one another, witness the Third Reich and Stalinist USSR... and Khomeini's Iran vs. Saddam's Iraq. Hell, Ho Chi Minh's VietNam vs. Pol Pot's Cambodia...

Maybe Dubya's America vs. Chavez' Venezuela is next, who knows?

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has confirmed that he will try to change the law to allow him to remain in power indefinitely.

As I said..if Bush even HINTED at doing something like this I guarantee you that public outcry would be defeaning. Since this is the socialist liberal favorite there is barely a whisper. Hmm...


Certainly Chavez is left-leaning. He has been redistributing the large estates to landless peasants. I favor having the tillers own the land however, and think his land reform a good thing. His moves to retain more of Venezuela's oil wealth have resulted in an ability for the government to fund urban health clinics, literacy and housing for the poor. In a nation with extremes of wealth and poverty like Venezuela, I think that's a good thing. It also results in the masses voting for a leader who does these things. And a reaction by the wealthy whose former favoritism has vanished. Is the possibility for demagoguery real and immediate? Of course it is. But many Americans are unaware of how profoundly undemocratic Latin regimes have been in previous centuries. Most american know very little of Latin American history. So I fear left demagoguery less than rightist authoritarianism.

Tell you what, Labrocca. You name all the lefty demagogues of the previous century in Latin America and I'll name all the righties. How's that? Then we'll compare the statistics for who killed or crushed more of their citizens...

P.S. What do you bet that Fushar is from the elitist, collaborator class of the Venezuelan financial oligarchy?

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. Fushar, welcome to my corner of the Internet, glad you spoke out about the huge problems in you're Nation.
2. My heart goes out to you for the plight you're Nation is going through.
3. I would hope the Catholic Church would be prepared to fight against Hugo, with strong words.
4. Words will be the strongest power at this time, with words you can over throw Hugo's plans.
5. My banker is from your Nation, and she is sold to Hugo's ideals, she is educated and not lower class poor, why she can't see how bad Hugo is for you're Nation is very puzzling.
6. Seeing Hugo is gathering up all the land, businesses, banks, and power companies, oil/gas, etc. unless your a complete idiot you would have to be alarmed.
7. For if there is no personal ownership of lands, businesses, banks, power plants, oil/gas companies, then for sure, Hugo is a Commie Bastard, who wants to be the owner of all the peoples wealth.
8. This kind of greed is insane dangerous, for himself, and the people.
9. One words describes the action that should take place there, *REVOLUTION*.
10. *REVOLUTION*, is the only way to over come this Hugo.
11. He has got to go down into the pit.
12. *CWN*, condemns *Hugo Chavez* as a *Evil* man, no good for his brothers or sisters, he is a walking crime.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Truth_and_Power]

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

I don't know if you are aware of it, (many aren't) but GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America just now.

He is ruling the nation under a State of Emergency, since September 11. 2001. What he says, goes...


I know we are all trying to relate this to bush and what we know here in america from CNN, but I talked to my friend who is from venezuela and goes back there when she can to visit family. I say 'when she can' because they cancelled her passport even tho she's not an american citizen (no country now!) so she can't go back to visit her family. She said chavez has put all his people in the "national assembly" that he made after he cancelled their congress and rewrote the constitution, and has done the same with the judiciary. Many of those people are totally underqualified (judges without a PHD??) and the only reason they have a position of power is because chavez put them there, so they are totally loyal and do whatever he says. Now he wants to cancel term limits and make a "prime minister" which is elected regularly while he stays there year in and year out like a king. She has a cousin that works for the state and was recently told by her boss that if she didn't vote for chavez she would have no job the next day, and that he would know who she voted for. She told him she wasn't voting for chavez no matter what he said. It turned out she had what amounts to "tenure" so he couldn't fire her. So she's being forced into early retirement @ age 40.

That is all paraphrased and in some instances direct quotes of what she said. This is not my agenda, this is apparently the feelings of much of the venezuelan people. I said to her I hoped they would recover control of their country without a violent revolution and she said she didn't think that was possible.

Say what you want about georgie, but this looks like POS dictator on the rise folks..

[bobbylien]

Don't they all begin with the best intentions? haha

[Deadshot]

What so many forget is that the best liars are those, who with a straight face, can tell you (for example) that it's wrong to gamble, while they themselves are gambling.

Chavez is a brutal dictator, just as Castro and the majority of dicators in the world are.

I'm no fan of our current POTUS, but I know I can speak out here and in other public places. I don't fear for my life and HOPE that things will get better in '08. Remember Hitler won elections in Germany, then banned all other party's and took over. Looks like Chavez is repeating history. :shame:

[CheesyMuslim]

Sorry bout that,

1. But ( I ) *The Great CWN* agrees with Deadshot.
2. I hope we always agree, but I won't hold my breath.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[Truth_and_Power]

It's official, Chess just PWND Chavez with our support. Who'd a thunk it.

[Labrocca]

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

I don't know if you are aware of it, (many aren't) but GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America just now.

He is ruling the nation under a State of Emergency, since September 11. 2001. What he says, goes...


I know we are all trying to relate this to bush and what we know here in america from CNN, but I talked to my friend who is from venezuela and goes back there when she can to visit family. I say 'when she can' because they cancelled her passport even tho she's not an american citizen (no country now!) so she can't go back to visit her family. She said chavez has put all his people in the "national assembly" that he made after he cancelled their congress and rewrote the constitution, and has done the same with the judiciary. Many of those people are totally underqualified (judges without a PHD??) and the only reason they have a position of power is because chavez put them there, so they are totally loyal and do whatever he says. Now he wants to cancel term limits and make a "prime minister" which is elected regularly while he stays there year in and year out like a king. She has a cousin that works for the state and was recently told by her boss that if she didn't vote for chavez she would have no job the next day, and that he would know who she voted for. She told him she wasn't voting for chavez no matter what he said. It turned out she had what amounts to "tenure" so he couldn't fire her. So she's being forced into early retirement @ age 40.

That is all paraphrased and in some instances direct quotes of what she said. This is not my agenda, this is apparently the feelings of much of the venezuelan people. I said to her I hoped they would recover control of their country without a violent revolution and she said she didn't think that was possible.

Say what you want about georgie, but this looks like POS dictator on the rise folks..


Good solid post. This is the overall stories that keep coming out of Venezuala. It's people like Sean Penn and Cindy Sheehan that have tainted many on the left into thinking he is a kind socialist looking to help his people. And partly that may be true but power corrupts and absolute power...blah blah. This is why term limits are one of the most important things to a democracy. It's no longer a democracy if you remove term limits. Will Venezuala fall apart of Chavez is dictator...no I don't think so. But I think many of it's citizens will suffer. I am a firm believer in America and our way of life. It's not perfect but it has great ideals. If Venezuala continues on it's current path it can change the entire political landscape of South America and for the worse. We could have a new USSR to our south eventually. Chavez is simply taking the steps one at a time instead of all at once. Democracy in the world appears to be failing imho. Now you might want to blame Bush for that and hey..I might even agree. Seems like Neoconservative values may be creating more harm than good. We can't force Democracy onto other nations I think that's becoming apparent.

Chavez...anyway you cut it...is nothing less than a dictator.

[Truth_and_Power]

What was wrong with the cold war strategy.. just leave them behind and they'll be begging to join..

[Fushar]

Fushar, are you saying that Chavez did not win the previous election?

I don't know if you are aware of it, (many aren't) but GW Bush is the virtual dictator of America just now.

He is ruling the nation under a State of Emergency, since September 11. 2001. What he says, goes...


If you have TOTAL control of the CNE (Consejo Nacional Electoral aka electoral power, the ones who controls the elections) then you can win any election you want. A proper CNE should be independent, but this one is also controlled by Chavez, like all institutions in this country. Example: If you put 10 people in a room and theres an election, and 7 are against you, by controlling the CNE you can decide that you won even if you actually lost. This is more complex and if I start explaining the details it would take me hours and a long post almost nobody would read, but thats the basic point of what I mean. He can win any election he wants even if he loses by controlling the CNE. Also, like it was said before, people who work in the state industries are threatened to vote for chavez or be fired from their jobs. Imagine if in the USA you are threatened to vote for Bush (or any other candidate) or be fired, you wouldnt accept that would you?.

We are not talking about Bush, this thread is about Venezuela. Also Bush term ends next year so I highly doubt thats a dictatorship.



Certainly Chavez is left-leaning. He has been redistributing the large estates to landless peasants. I favor having the tillers own the land however, and think his land reform a good thing. His moves to retain more of Venezuela's oil wealth have resulted in an ability for the government to fund urban health clinics, literacy and housing for the poor. In a nation with extremes of wealth and poverty like Venezuela, I think that's a good thing. It also results in the masses voting for a leader who does these things. And a reaction by the wealthy whose former favoritism has vanished.

After reading this paragraph I have realized you dont know jack of what you are saying. Once again I ask you (or it was the other guy December I asked) where are you from?. If you were from Venezuela you would see with your own eyes that this is a big lie.

See, Chavez is sorrounded by people in the government. These people are called the "new rich" or "new oligarchy". These people became rich in these 8 years of chavez´s government. They did by stealing the money from the people (corruption in many ways you cant imagine). The people in power around chavez dont care about the country, they only care about themselves, to make themselves rich and to keep chavez in power because they are becoming rich because of him. Chavez in his wet dreams for becoming "emperor of latin america" (im exagerating a little here, but he would like that) knows that if he keeps these cronies happy by letting them do whatever they want, then they can help him with his dirty ways of governing the country. These people are violent and corrupted, they (chavez and the new oligarchy) would do whatever is neccessary to keep the regime.

You say that chavez is distributing the wealth to the poor people, I have no idea where you got this info from. Probably reading internet communist websites or something. Thats probably where you get your information. But i can tell you first hand that the poor people are poorer than before, and the middle class is dissapearing and joining the poor. The rich are divided in 2, those who are against chavez and those who support chavez. The ones who are against chavez a good part of them have fled and moved their businesses to another country, some have stayed because this is their country. The rich who support chavez do so because hes making them even more rich. When I say "rich who support chavez" im talking about the "new rich" or "new oligarchy" who became rich in 1 day through corruption and also im talking about people who were previously rich, but since they only love money, they dont care making deals and businesses with the devil himself as long as they keep the money flowing in their pockets.

My point is that there are misguided people like you who think that the rich are against chavez and the poor support him. Its not exactly that way. Its true that theres a percentage of poor people that support him, but its a small one.

The small percentage of poor people that support chavez are:
1) Ignorant people who believe everything they read on the news. (chavez controls like 90% of the media in the country, proving that its false the claim that the media is against him. In the beginning most of the media was independent and it pointed out the bad things of chavez government like corruption, etc. This is normal in all democratic nations, where the media points out the bad things of their governments in order to be fixed. But chavez instead of fixing these problems, he decided that the media should be smashed, so he started to take over and silence tv stations like RCTV and/or buy them with the money he gets from oil revenue. He has been succesfully to the point in which we can say that chavez now controls 90% of the media, and his goal is to control it all, he has advanced and is advancing so far).
2) Resented people who were lazy when they were young and instead of getting education and working, they decided to live a lazy life and do nothing. Hence having a life of mediocrity and poverty. They hate anyone who posses a car or a house because they cant afford it because of their lazyness. So they see on Chavez someone who will destroy those who did work for their stuff and they want everyone to be miserable like them. I think it was Churchill who said that communism is the philosophy of the resented or something along the lines.
3) Thugs who are armed by chavez to intimidate the population and keep them under control.

The other part of the poor people who are against chavez are:
1) People who in the beginning (1998) believed in chavez but with the years realized he was a bastard.
2) Honest people who want to succeed in life and have a better standard of life but with chavez in power is impossible.
3) People who were middle class but became poor because of chavez´ plan* (ill explain later what i mean here).

As you can see #1 is the biggest part. People who at the beginning believed in chavez but felt betrayed after realizing chavez is not doing anything for them.

What I meant about "Chavez´ plan", is that in order to successfully keep power for years, he needs to destroy the rich (who are against him), and all the middle class in order for him to become the absolute "Lord" (to say it that way) or "Employer" of the country with the monopoly of employment by controling all industries, companies, etc. Having this monopoly of employment allows him to control all the people and subjugate them, "if you dont support me, ill fire you and you wont be able to get any job to feed your family". So people are coerced to support him whether they like him or not.

Theres more to explain but I dont want to make the post big, so I stop here.


Is the possibility for demagoguery real and immediate? Of course it is. But many Americans are unaware of how profoundly undemocratic Latin regimes have been in previous centuries. Most american know very little of Latin American history. So I fear left demagoguery less than rightist authoritarianism.

Tell you what, Labrocca. You name all the lefty demagogues of the previous century in Latin America and I'll name all the righties. How's that? Then we'll compare the statistics for who killed or crushed more of their citizens...


Once again, we are not talking about the past or previous dictatorships in latin america or Pinochet or whatever. Dont change the subject. Try to stay on-topic and discuss chavez.


P.S. What do you bet that Fushar is from the elitist, collaborator class of the Venezuelan financial oligarchy?

Realizing that you have no real arguments to debate me, you use the "difamation" low attack crap as a last resort. Shame on you, so my answer to your pathetic comment is: :sick: :lmao:




5. My banker is from your Nation, and she is sold to Hugo's ideals, she is educated and not lower class poor, why she can't see how bad Hugo is for you're Nation is very puzzling.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


Shes a banker, so she probably fits into the "new rich" aka "new oligarchy" or probably the previously rich who want to keep making deals with the devil as long as the money keeps flowing into their pockets. Remember these people must support Chavez so they can become more rich. So they will follow his orders and talk well about him no matter what.

[Labrocca]

PH bro you should read this if you want to rebuttle him. (http://patrick-henry.justgotowned.com/)

[lily]

[quote=Fushar]


See, Chavez is sorrounded by people in the government. These people are called the "new rich" or "new oligarchy". These people became rich in these 8 years of chavez´s government. They did by stealing the money from the people (corruption in many ways you cant imagine). The people in power around chavez dont care about the country, they only care about themselves, to make themselves rich and to keep chavez in power because they are becoming rich because of him.

I think you can say that about any person in power. Here we have corruption, missing money, missing arms in Iraq, no bid contracts, the war making people rich and Bush surrounding himself by people that tell him what he wants to hear.




But i can tell you first hand that the poor people are poorer than before, and the middle class is dissapearing and joining the poor.

Again, not to minimize your plight, but the same is happening right here..........but while we are on the subject of poor.......what are your feelings on Chavez giving discounted heating fuel to the poor of this country?

[ttriber]

I may not have said much but I am glad to have Fushar a fellow Anti-communist come to this forum. I may not be in Venezuela and experiencing what Fushar is right know, but I sure as hell know that Venezuela is in deep turmoil If someone in that government doesn't stop the comradarie between Castro and Chavez. What we Cuban's have experienced in our 48 years of hell is soon to happend to Venezuela if something doesn't happend over there to get rid of that bastard.

[lily]

I may not have said much but I am glad to have Fushar a fellow Anti-communist come to this forum.

So....those that wish to discuss and don't agree with Fushar are pro-communists?:ponder:

[Labrocca]

Again, not to minimize your plight, but the same is happening right here...

OMG...are you serious Lily? Dislike Bush and his administration all you want but HOW can you compare our country and government to Venezuala. Please...

Can you elaborate maybe on exactly what "same" things are happening here. And be specific don't give us rhetoric about "losing freedom" or crap like that. I want to hear EXACTLY what part of our society is the "same" as what Chavez is doing to Venezuala.

You have made an outrageous statement imho. One that you won't be able to back up with any facts. Very irresponsible if you ask me. You are helping to spread the misnomer that America is the evil nation.

[lily]

Can you elaborate maybe on exactly what "same" things are happening here. And be specific don't give us rhetoric about "losing freedom" or crap like that. I want to hear EXACTLY what part of our society is the "same" as what Chavez is doing to Venezuala.

I believe I did in my post. Both leaders have corruption. Both leaders surround themselves with people that tell them what they want to hear. Both leaders have people around them that are making money hand over fist. Both countries middle class is becoming a thing of the past.

You have made an outrageous statement imho. One that you won't be able to back up with any facts. Very irresponsible if you ask me. You are helping to spread the misnomer that America is the evil nation.

It's irresponsible for me to post my opionions and have a discussion, or it's irresponsible of me not to agree?

[PatrickHenry]

PH bro you should read this if you want to rebuttle him.[/url]
Heh. Good one...My username isn't hyphenated though...

I see you don't want to discuss the right v left dictatorships. That's OK, I likely couldn't convince a brainwashed individual such as yourself that Uncle Sam has mostly been a supporter of international tyranny.

But I also note that Fushar did not deny the correctness of my guess that he is an elitist with family wealth. Which is subject to redistribution by Chavez' administration. Can you say "ax to grind?"

Fushar, maybe you can explain why Latin Americans have been largely impoverished for centuries, and why there is a class of local oligarchs who collude to subject the poor to government and industrial tyranny in every rightist regime.

I don't object that Chavez is or is not an authoritarian. How would I know? He certainly opposes US hegemony. I think that's a good thing.

Retaining political power indefinitely wouldn't be called democratic. But traditions of democracy aren't all that strong in Latin America...

[Labrocca]

That's OK, I likely couldn't convince a brainwashed individual such as yourself that Uncle Sam has mostly been a supporter of international tyranny.

You are 100% correct...you couldn't convince me becuase I already believe it's true. I am not disillusioned that our government is the goodie-two-shoes of the world. If I had my way...we wouldn't have a single US soldier over seas unless we were specifically attacked or we had 100% verifiable proof of an imminent attack. I wouldn't have bases in Europe, Asia, or Africa. I wouldn't even let the Navy sail past 500 miles of US soil except to go to Hawaii. Fuck the world imho. You can blame (or thank) Bush for my current opinion on that.

Oh..and I don't just think soldiers should be limited..I wouldn't give a fucking dime to an outside nation at least not as charity.

[PatrickHenry]

Good for you Labrocca. Damn. You are looking more libertarian everyday.

Do you ever read Vin Suprynowicz? He's a frequent contributor to the Vegas newspaper...[hr]Here's some Suprynowicz from Lew Rockwell: http://www.lewrockwell.com/suprynowicz/suprynowicz-arch.html