History of Democracy

[Athena]

How do the gods resolve their differences? Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other. Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict. So what did they do?

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study. I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people. The rest of the world had their religions, and the math came from Egypt and India, but the people of Hellas treated math as a secular knowledge to share, not a secret sacred knowledge for preist only. Here is Hellas, the people are turning to science and secular thinking, secular politics among reasoning beings who believe the altimate power is reason! They were intent on educating their children to function in this very different society.

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning. The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today. Can we talk?

[Robodoon]

How do the gods resolve their differences?Â*Â*Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other.Â*Â*Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict.Â*Â*So what did they do?Â*Â*

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study.Â*Â*I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people.Â*Â*The rest of the world had their religions, and the math came from Egypt and India, but the people of Hellas treated math as a secular knowledge to share, not a secret sacred knowledge for preist only.Â*Â*Here is Hellas, the people are turning to science and secular thinking, secular politics among reasoning beings who believe the altimate power is reason!Â*Â*They were intent on educating their children to function in this very different society.Â*Â*

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning.Â*Â*The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today.Â*Â*Can we talk?Â*Â*Â*Â*


Democracy isn't the way to go for a society that wants self rule, Democracy today is sold that way, but its a lie. Americas ideas of Self rule where not held on Democracy, but the ideas of a Republic. Today that word is rarely mentioned and there is a purposefull reason for it, we are being enslaved.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [FEDERALIST PAPERS]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

You know who does support Democracy though? Communist do, or Socialists to be more PC, because it promotes communist/socialist ideas.

"Those who hope that we shall move away from the socialist path will be greatly disappointed. Every part of our program of perestroika...is fully based on the principle of more socialism and more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life..."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

Gorby is helping Agenda 21, he works out of a 2 billion dollar piece of US land that American citizens my find hard to visit.

"...I would like to be clearly understood...we, the Soviet people, are for socialism.... We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

"Socialism has a bad name in America, and no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the left is going to change that.... The words Economic Democracy are an adequate and effective replacement."
Derek Shearer cited in Reason 1982



"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long."

President George Bush (January 1991)

The "new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all."

Nelson Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)


"It's my conviction that the human race has entered a stage where we are all dependent on each other. No other country or nation should be regarded in total separation from another, let alone pitted against another. That's what our communist vocabulary calls internationalism and it means promoting universal human values."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988


"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."

H. G. Wells, in his book entitled The New World Order (1939)

[Athena]

How do the gods resolve their differences?Â*Â*Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other.Â*Â*Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict.Â*Â*So what did they do?Â*Â*

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study.Â*Â*I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people.Â*Â*The rest of the world had their religions, and the math came from Egypt and India, but the people of Hellas treated math as a secular knowledge to share, not a secret sacred knowledge for preist only.Â*Â*Here is Hellas, the people are turning to science and secular thinking, secular politics among reasoning beings who believe the altimate power is reason!Â*Â*They were intent on educating their children to function in this very different society.Â*Â*

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning.Â*Â*The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today.Â*Â*Can we talk?Â*Â*Â*Â*


Democracy isn't the way to go for a society that wants self rule, Democracy today is sold that way, but its a lie. Americas ideas of Self rule where not held on Democracy, but the ideas of a Republic. Today that word is rarely mentioned and there is a purposefull reason for it, we are being enslaved.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [FEDERALIST PAPERS]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

You know who does support Democracy though? Communist do, or Socialists to be more PC, because it promotes communist/socialist ideas.

"Those who hope that we shall move away from the socialist path will be greatly disappointed. Every part of our program of perestroika...is fully based on the principle of more socialism and more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life..."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

Gorby is helping Agenda 21, he works out of a 2 billion dollar piece of US land that American citizens my find hard to visit.

"...I would like to be clearly understood...we, the Soviet people, are for socialism.... We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

"Socialism has a bad name in America, and no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the left is going to change that.... The words Economic Democracy are an adequate and effective replacement."
Derek Shearer cited in Reason 1982



"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long."

President George Bush (January 1991)

The "new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all."

Nelson Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)


"It's my conviction that the human race has entered a stage where we are all dependent on each other. No other country or nation should be regarded in total separation from another, let alone pitted against another. That's what our communist vocabulary calls internationalism and it means promoting universal human values."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988


"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."

H. G. Wells, in his book entitled The New World Order (1939)





When democracy is understood as an imitation of the Gods, no one can be ensalved. The Greek gods were brothers and sisters, and this order is important to understanding democracy, which opposes authority over the people.

Athens philosophers determined the gods do not rule by whim and force, but it is reason that rules even the gods. Democracy is just as much about discovering this reason/truth as anything else. In fact one could even say this is the most important function of democracy. Athenians loved to gather and ask the impossible questions, and then argue about the answers they would give. That is what these forums are about. That is what democracy is about.

Read Cicero for a clearer understanding of the God of reason and our relation with this God and each other. Hum, perhaps I should start a thread just for Democracy and freedom. This one is suppose to be the history of democracy, as it began in Athens, was picked up by Rome, and renewed when the Christian crusaders returned with the ancient Greek and Roman classics that had been preserved by the Arabs. It was this return of crusaders with the ancient classics that began the renascence and Age of Enlightenment.

The American revolution began long before a shot was fired, and it was an intellectual revolution. Only when the masses are literate in Greek and Roman classics, is democracy safe, because it is a matter of the intellect, and the form of government. Democracies can different froms of government and different economic systems. And it is because the form of government can be different and the economic system can be different, that the most important aspect of democracy is of the mind!

Like religion, for democracy to be manifest, it must be learned. Because we are not learning it and people learn their religions, it is in danger. And can not be spread any way, except by thought.

[Robodoon]

How do the gods resolve their differences? Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other. Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict. So what did they do?

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study. I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people. The rest of the world had their religions, and the math came from Egypt and India, but the people of Hellas treated math as a secular knowledge to share, not a secret sacred knowledge for preist only. Here is Hellas, the people are turning to science and secular thinking, secular politics among reasoning beings who believe the altimate power is reason! They were intent on educating their children to function in this very different society.

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning. The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today. Can we talk?


Democracy isn't the way to go for a society that wants self rule, Democracy today is sold that way, but its a lie. Americas ideas of Self rule where not held on Democracy, but the ideas of a Republic. Today that word is rarely mentioned and there is a purposefull reason for it, we are being enslaved.

Is America a Republic or a Democracy?

I know it as a Republic…but I’m told by leaders and when I was in school and on my Nightly News today….that this is a Democracy.

But why would I think this was a Republic and not a Democracy?
Certainly the ideas of democracy dwell within a Republic…but the ideas of a Republic do not dwell within a Democracy. ( or maybe I don’t understand )

Where has this confusion come from? Why do some of us have a problem with this…can’t we all just get along…

but


Has the Definition of Democracy been changed over the years?

- Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928

And the Words of old wisdom [FEDERALIST PAPERS]
From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.


http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/federalist/

You know who does support Democracy though? Communist do, or Socialists to be more PC, because it promotes communist/socialist ideas.

"Those who hope that we shall move away from the socialist path will be greatly disappointed. Every part of our program of perestroika...is fully based on the principle of more socialism and more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

More socialism means more democracy, openness and collectivism in everyday life..."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

Gorby is helping Agenda 21, he works out of a 2 billion dollar piece of US land that American citizens my find hard to visit.

"...I would like to be clearly understood...we, the Soviet people, are for socialism.... We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

"Socialism has a bad name in America, and no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the left is going to change that.... The words Economic Democracy are an adequate and effective replacement."
Derek Shearer cited in Reason 1982



"If we do not follow the dictates of our inner moral compass and stand up for human life, then his lawlessness will threaten the peace and democracy of the emerging new world order we now see, this long dreamed-of vision we've all worked toward for so long."

President George Bush (January 1991)

The "new world order that is in the making must focus on the creation of a world of democracy, peace and prosperity for all."

Nelson Mandela, in The Philadelphia Inquirer (October 1994)


"It's my conviction that the human race has entered a stage where we are all dependent on each other. No other country or nation should be regarded in total separation from another, let alone pitted against another. That's what our communist vocabulary calls internationalism and it means promoting universal human values."
Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika - New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988


"... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people ... will hate the new world order ... and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people."

H. G. Wells, in his book entitled The New World Order (1939)





When democracy is understood as an imitation of the Gods, no one can be ensalved. The Greek gods were brothers and sisters, and this order is important to understanding democracy, which opposes authority over the people.

No gods, just God. Don't bring satanism to my table and tell me its good.


Athens philosophers determined the gods do not rule by whim and force, but it is reason that rules even the gods. Democracy is just as much about discovering this reason/truth as anything else. In fact one could even say this is the most important function of democracy. Athenians loved to gather and ask the impossible questions, and then argue about the answers they would give. That is what these forums are about. That is what democracy is about. Democracy is about mob rule, it holds nothing about good. What holds good is good is God...not gods.

Read Cicero for a clearer understanding of the God of reason and our relation with this God and each other. Hum, perhaps I should start a thread just for Democracy and freedom. This one is suppose to be the history of democracy, as it began in Athens, was picked up by Rome, and renewed when the Christian crusaders returned with the ancient Greek and Roman classics that had been preserved by the Arabs. It was this return of crusaders with the ancient classics that began the renascence and Age of Enlightenment. the age of Enlightenment is the age of folly, it breeds Genocide for the earth, for this is the reason of men...see monument to the death of the world.

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm


The American revolution began long before a shot was fired, and it was an intellectual revolution. Only when the masses are literate in Greek and Roman classics, is democracy safe, because it is a matter of the intellect, and the form of government. Democracies can different froms of government and different economic systems. And it is because the form of government can be different and the economic system can be different, that the most important aspect of democracy is of the mind! You are confused between the revolution of America and France...do you know understand this?

Like religion, for democracy to be manifest, it must be learned. Because we are not learning it and people learn their religions, it is in danger. And can not be spread any way, except by thought.
Reason needs truth...have you forgetten this?

[Nathan Brazil]

How do the gods resolve their differences?Â*Â*Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other.Â*Â*Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict.Â*Â*So what did they do?Â*Â*

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech.Â*Â*That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

Tell that to Prometheus.Â*Â*He disagreed with his fellow gods and got his liver eaten by a bird every day for eternity.


At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study.Â*Â*I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people.

Pythogoras had such a hatred for beans that when he was being pursued he refused to cross a bean field and was captured, to be put to death.

As for studying math, the Greeks had such an irrational reaction to the zero, and it's pal, the infinite, that they refused to incorporate it into their culture, even though they certainly knew all about it from the Babylonians.Â*Â*Result?Â*Â*Discovery of the calculus was delayed by 2000 years.

So Hellenic society wasn't as rational as some people would like us to believe.Â*Â*As the Peloponnesian War showed, the Greeks can be as irrational as anyone else.

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning.Â*Â*The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today.Â*Â*Can we talk?Â*Â*Â*Â*


Sure, Rome hijacked the Christian Church, turned it Catholic, and used it to conquer the world.Â*Â*Yet another reason why it took so long to discover calculus.

[Athena]

"Discovery of the calculus was delayed by 2000 years".Â*Â*Actual Archimedes came very close to callus in 200 B.C..Â*Â*The Roman emperor wanted him captured alive and brought back to Rome, but a Roman soldier killed him.Â*Â*

However, the religious focus of Rome did set civilization back, with all the advances civilizations had made, being forgotten to western civilization, until the crusaders brought forgotten works back from the crusaeds.Â*Â*Fortunately, Islam valued these works and the Arabs preserved them, or we would not have democracy today.Â*Â*When the later church saw what the crusaders brought back, the church began copying and saving them.Â*Â*Cicero had a profound influence on the church during the Middle Ages.

I think we need to grasp the important difference between religion being the only thing people learn, and the Athen scientific approach to life that became democracy.Â*Â* That seems to be what prevents despotism, and when we forget that, we return to despotism. But it can't just be science. The concept of the gods and their relationship, is needed to humanize science.

[Athena]

"No gods, just God. Don't bring satanism to my table and tell me its good". Satan begins with the Christians.Â*Â*There is no Satan when dealing with the Greek and Roman gods.Â*Â*

The mythology of the gods, gives us a vocabulary and concepts essential to civilization.Â*Â*This is myth okay, not supernatural gods, like the Christian God and Satan are supernatural beings.Â*Â* Out of the mythology came the understanding of a God of reason, that is essential to democracy.Â*Â*This is a very different understanding of reality, as there is no God who talks to people and gives them commandments, or sends birds to feed them, or disease to punish them.Â*Â*The God of reason isn't a humanized God who can be pleased or displeased, and therefore, rewards or punishes people, meaning our fate is in the hands of this God.Â*Â*No, man must study nature, and reason with each other to manifest the best possible reality.Â*Â*A God isn't going to provide it for them, or get angry and punish them.Â*Â*Not through a king or any other mystical means.Â*Â*Â*Â*Democracy is secular and separate from the supernatural father God of the bible.Â*Â*Without this other understanding of reality, we wouldn't be doing so well.Â*Â*

Democracy is about mob rule, it holds nothing about good. What holds good is good is God...not gods. This is an incorrect understanding of democracy which is rule by reason. However, I can see how your understanding of religion and how good and evil is manifest, could be a hinderance to understanding of democracy and how it over comes evil.

[RedKnight]

Democracy
A goverment of the masses.
Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.
Results in mobocracy.
Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.
Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate,... without restraint or regard to consequences.
Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.
Army Training Manual Concerning Citizenship 1928 This is actually the definition of anarcho-communism.

[Athena]

"A democracy [is] the only pure republic, but impracticable beyond the limits of a town." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1816. ME 15:65

Jefferson relied on the will of the people when he opposed those who would model the US after England. He saw democracy as essential to the republic. Cicero speaks of the need of balance, a democratic base, an aristocratic branch (supreme court) and an excutive branch (president). Our Republic is not just one, but a combination of the three.
It is the combination of the three that gives us check and balance. Those who insist the US is not a democracy, incorrectly understand the importance of all three, and are misunderstanding democracy- rule by reason.

[dlap]

Nice post, different perceptions on the roots of democracy and, indeed, its definition. So, lets start from that: Democracy did indeed start in ancient athens and the word the athenians used means "rule by the citizens". It is clear to me that the citizens of a state cannot be collectively called a mob, because each citizen should be a mature, responsible and rational individual in order for democracy to work. It is however clear to anybody that today this definition would fail in all the countries of the world without exception.

Now, since most modern countries have millions of citizens, democracy as a strict term is impossible to work. Therefore, all democratic countries today are different forms of republics, which basically means that citizens elect representatives to rule on their behalf. This form of democracy was first introduced in Rome.
So, to finish with the definitions, a republic is compromised democracy, but in today's world democracy is just logistically impossible to implement.

As for the history of democracy, Athena generally made an accurate description of how the Greeks (this word actually predates "Hellas") realised the importance of reason to solve differences between equal and free citizens. "Free" meaning belonging to a state where the law is above the King (or any other ruler)- not just belonging to a free (not enslaved) state.

The Romans always looked up to the Greeks with regards to culture and as a result they redifined their own nation (starting with religion) in order to be culturally closer to them. Thus they acquired democracy but again fitted it to their needs (bigger population), and so the republic was born.

Then, we observe a huge gap in the presence of democracy, and the answer to that is probably what Athena said, religion. With the fall of the Roman empire, two theocratic empires emerge on the east and the west. Now, theocracy is the rule of god, as opposed to the rule of the citizens. It may seem good enough with the exception that god can almost never physically make it to the counsil. Therefore theocracy had to be replaced by its republican equivalent: yes, you've guessed it, god's representative (in the west) was the pope.
And then putting the spiritual world aside for a moment, there was a 180 degree turn in Rome from democracy to absolute monarchy, as the pope was above all kings and rulers, guiding their souls to salvation.

In the east, the emperor assumed that role. Maybe it was because his authority was not superficial (as the pope's), maybe it was because the east contained Greece that during the dark ages the empire was more or less a continuation of the enlightment seen in the Hellenistic period. It was the Eastern empire that preserved the scripts and ideas of the ancients that passed to the west resulting in the renaissance period
(scholars from Byzantium moved to the west during th 12th-13th centuries as the empire was falling to the Turks, taking with them the ancient knowledge; the crucaders took from Constantinople and Arabia what they went there to take, gold and land).

As the ancient values (most important that of investigative thinking and freedom) took new importance in the west, the europeans managed to concentrate on what humans are made for, thinking, and the result was the renaissance period with great inventions and discoveries; the paramount was a rediscovery of the greek and roman heritage with a touch of Christianity expressed in french: liberte, egalite, fraternite.

[tony mitra]

The subject heading is interesting. But the content of the first post from Athena has been somewhat confusing to me. The post seems overly concentrating on the Greek civilization and its influence on Christianity, as well as some famous Greek scholars and their contribution to science. I do not know that the concept of democracy or scientific explorations originated there, and would argue that they did not. Basing the history of democracy with the roots of Greek and Christian origins appears to be perhaps a tad biased, culturally and by religion.

As to secular pursuit of science, I do believe it did not originate in Greece either. The Egyptians had high maths and science when the Greeks were still up the proverbial tree, and not all pursuit of knowledge was for secret knowledge of the high priest, although it might appear like that for the illiterate. Greece, the best I can think of it, was less a democracy of the masses and more a rule of the elite, only further refined by the Romans, again as the rule of the elite and not of the masses. Democratic experimentation there came to an end, if you will, the moment Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and became a dictator. But even before that, the democratic experiment in Rome came with the backdrop of Julius Caesar’s continuous military campaigns across the known world, basically enslaving the rest of mankind. A rather cruel and unfair way of running democracy at home based on the labor of an increasing empire of slaves, I might add.

Robodoon’s post was interesting, and got me thinking on how one might differentiate Democracy against notions of a Republic.

When I look at history from a global perspective, and not isolated within a nation, I cannot help but notice that the biggest promoters of national democracy (i.e. rule of law and equal rights for all citizens), have been among the biggest abusers of democratic principles internationally. The greatest so called democracies from Europe were the very same that also brought us the biggest of the colonial empires with forced abuse of human rights, economic slavery and racial bigotry along with forced imposition of alien religions on others.

Today, I see the greatest shortcoming of democracy in the way it is perceived in the most powerful of the democratic nations - whereas the same democratic values that are touted within the national boundaries are tossed out while dealing with others. In other words, democratic nations, irrespective of what they believed about all men being created equal, did not treat all men as equal, and certainly did not allow women to vote till the very end of its long history of evolution.

So, if democracy is to be made universal there is clearly going to be a need for inventing an international format where strong nations do not swamp weak ones. League of nation and later United Nations were perhaps mankind’s first tentative attempt at arriving at some sort of an universal democracy. Sadly, both have been subverted by the strong “democratic� nations themselves, that like to brag of democracy within their national borders, and act autocratic outside it. That may not be the fault of democracy, but rather, failure of people to believe in its core values. It is less democratic, and more a pursuit of double standards, one for me and another for the rest.


That is just my view, and I do not believe it has much to do with Zeus, who, incidentally is also considered a God of thunder with an Indo-European origin as well as having other near-east influences. In short, Zeus was not even an original Greek invention.

Just my thoughts on a subject that is truly vast in its scope.

No offense to the Greeks or Athena’s mention of the Greek and Christian origins.

Take care, all.
:)

[dlap]

I do not know that the concept of democracy or scientific explorations originated there, and would argue that they did not. Basing the history of democracy with the roots of Greek and Christian origins appears to be perhaps a tad biased, culturally and by religion.

As to secular pursuit of science, I do believe it did not originate in Greece either. The Egyptians had high maths and science when the Greeks were still up the proverbial tree, and not all pursuit of knowledge was for secret knowledge of the high priest, although it might appear like that for the illiterate.


We all (should) know that many sciences did not originate in Greece. We do know that for example mathematics were practiced in Egypt at least a millenium before the Greeks borrowed it. But the interesting question is how we know; there are basically two sources for that knowledge:

1. The structures found in Egypt that required advanced applied mathematics to be built (sort of like mumification must have required advanced knowledge of anatomy).
2. The Greek historians say so.

You see, the topic is the history of democracy; both words describe greek invensions. First and forermost history, the objective recording of ones environment for future generations is almost a definition for sharing the knowledge. Coming back to what we know about Egypt, anybody would expect a civilisation that definatelly possesed the knowledge of science for so long to keep a vast amount of records in order for future generations to have easy access to it. Surprisingly, there are almost no such records found today. This only leads to the assumption that the knowledge was passed orally, which in turn leads to the assumption that there must have been a secrecy involved, that knowledge was not to be open to everyone. So using adjectives such as "illiterate" is a bit harsh, plus would require expanding on the topic.

We also (should) know that political science was born in Greece, being the product of philosophy, and the first and (as far as I know) only democracy ever put to practice was in Athens.
*To avoid any misunderstandings, democracy is rule by citizens, not rule by people; the latter is today's understanding of democracy and owes a lot to christianity.

Therefore I don't think it's biased to credit Greece, Rome and Christianity with the form of democracy today, I'd say the democratic world (i.e. the western world) is marked by Greece, Rome and Christianity.

Now, on the very interesting points made on "international democracy", you have to understand that democracy is just a political form of government, nothing more; the U.S. or any other democratic government is bound to apply equality to and struggle for the prosperity of its citizens, not the people of the world. Of couse I can only agree when it comes to certain democratic rulers (a.k.a. G.W. Bush) suddenly being interested in the well being of other peoples (e.g. Iraqis); this however is also a Greek invension, a parasite of democracy, demagoguery.

As for whether an international organisation such as the U.N. could serve as a global government, I also think that it is already good to see people trying, but the world right now seems like a state where a few prosper and the many are overly poor. History shows us that in such states democracy was never achieved through reasonable agreements, but only through revolutions...

[namguy]

How do the gods resolve their differences? Zues and his brothers and sisters often quarreled with each other. Zues has been considered the top god, but really he is the youngest of his brothers and sisters, and these were brothers sisters, not the hiarchy of authoirty of monarchies.
They were also immortal and couldn't kill each other to end a conflict. So what did they do?

This is what the Greek philosophers asked, and they concluded, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, made manifest in speech. That is, the gods argued until there was a consensus on the best reasoning.

At the same time the people of Hellas, the name Greece before it was known as Greece, Pythagoras was working on math, Hypocrates was working on medicine, Aristotole was establishing the divisions of scientific study. I mean these people were thinking differently from all other people. The rest of the world had their religions, and the math came from Egypt and India, but the people of Hellas treated math as a secular knowledge to share, not a secret sacred knowledge for preist only. Here is Hellas, the people are turning to science and secular thinking, secular politics among reasoning beings who believe the altimate power is reason! They were intent on educating their children to function in this very different society.

Rome adopted much of Hellenism and Christianity was strongly influenced by it, but none were focused on the sciences and perparing their young for citizenship and leadership as were the Athenians. People from around the world came to Athens to learn, but in Rome, there were those suspicious of this learning. The idea of an educated mass positioning themselves in society by merit, and capable of self government, was not widely accepted, in ancient times, nor is it any more accepted by the world today. Can we talk?



S.P.Q.R. - The Second Riht.