Flag upside down, country in distress, couple arrested

[ViolaLee]

A gung ho cop just back from Iraq broke into their house and put the husband into a choke hold. The wife had to call 911. But of course since the cop was the criminal, the couple went to jail.

All for flying their flag upside down with signs pinned to it, explaining what an upside down flag stands for.

http://cmsimg.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=B0&Date=20070726&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=70725118&Ref=AR&maxW=313&border=1

Mark and Deborah Kuhn display signs they attached to an American flag flying upside down at their home on Brevard Road.

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770725118

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/310707coupleterrorized.htm

[lawless168]

Haha!

[Mayberry]

An upside down flag is a universally recognized distress signal communicating an immediate threat to life and/or property. Display of any distress signal when no threat exists is illegal, and for good reason. If you fired a flare when no emergency existed, emergency responders might be putting their lives in jeopardy for no good reason. And attaching signs to the flag is disrespectful.

[Truth_and_Power]

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[micfranklin]

Arresting for upside-down flag = unneeded overkill.

[Alonzo]

Get a lawyer and sue the cop.

[PatrickHenry]

Get a hitman for the cop.

[Mayberry]

Get a hitman for the cop.

That's just not right.

[lily]

An upside down flag is a universally recognized distress signal communicating an immediate threat to life and/or property. Display of any distress signal when no threat exists is illegal, and for good reason. If you fired a flare when no emergency existed, emergency responders might be putting their lives in jeopardy for no good reason. And attaching signs to the flag is disrespectful.


Interesting.......so your theory is the cop thought their lives were in danger, so he broke into their house and put the man in a choke hold?

[Mayberry]

so your theory is the cop thought their lives were in danger, so he broke into their house and put the man in a choke hold?
What the cop did or didn't do is a seperate issue. The fact that remains is that falsely displaying a distress signal is against the law for good reasons. And "political statements" is one of them.

[Stoner]

I'd rather see the hitman visit the dumbass, neolib couple.

[underdawg]

I think that the couple had every right to display their flag upside down. This country is in a constitutional crisis. Bush has done illegal wire tapping against US citizens, Cheney claims to be above the law, the president is claiming executive privilege in order to halt investigations into possible criminal activity within the Bush administration, and we are in the midst of an illegal and very unpopular war. The country is in a state of crisis, maybe not on the same catagory as a call to 9-1-1 but certainly a state of distress.This is an issue of free speach and that cop should be punished for his illegal actions.

[Mayberry]

This is an issue of free speach No it is not. It is an issue of illegally displaying a distress signal. The cop is a seperate issue entirely.

[lily]

I'd like to retract my statement and slap my self upside of my head for not reading the article.


Scarborough told Mark Kuhn he was going to be issued a citation and asked for identification. Kuhn refused, slammed the door on the deputy’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting Scarborough’s hand, the Sheriff’s Office said.

Deborah Kuhn said they removed the flag from their front porch after Scarborough threatened to cite them, but they objected to showing Scarborough their IDs, which he needed to write the tickets. Scarborough then broke into their house and came after them, they said.

“He tried to keep us from closing the door, but we managed to get it closed,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We locked the door and he broke the glass to our front door and proceeded to assault my husband, saying, ‘You’re under arrest.’”

The Sheriff’s Office said a struggle ensued when Scarborough followed Kuhn back into the house. At that time, Deborah Kuhn also struck Scarborough in the face, authorities said in arrest reports.

[underdawg]

And what makes you think we are not experiencing a crisis in our country at this very moment in American history? An upside down flag is not the same as a call to 9-1-1.

[Mayberry]

An upside down flag is not the same as a call to 9-1-1. WRONG!!! An upside down flag IS a call to 911!!! I'd like to retract my statement and slap my self upside of my head for not reading the article.
We'll let it go this time Lily! :P

[NortheastCynic]

I'd like to point out that the couple were not liberals [or at least it isn't likely]. Based on the "on Paul" part of the sign in their living room, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say they were Dr. Paul supporters. Anyway, the police officer appeared to act rationally, given the fact that the couple resisted and acted violently. With that said it is absolutely ridiculous that you can get into any kind of trouble for flying a flag upside-down.

-NC

[underdawg]

I must admit that I judged the cop before reading the story and realize that he was just doing his job. I still firmly believe that the couple had every right to display the flag upside down.

[Lazarus]

Well, this is just idiotic.
An inverted flag is used when a situation has brought about dire distress.
Additionally, this method is employed when no other means of communication is available.

Now, whether or not one finds the current state of our government in such a condition to warrant this signal is purely a matter of perspective.
This family obviously felt it did. Where they erred was in attaching the signs to their distress signal.
But what other avenues of effective communication are at this families' disposal?
This elicited an immediate responce - any publicity is good publicity, or so I'm told.

Whether this breach of etiquette required law enforcement to interject is likewise a matter of perspective.
I would proffer that this was a waste of resoures.

My views on the direction our country is headed is obvious, and I feel the dire need for a course correction.
But then again, sometimes I can see the future.

[Truth_and_Power]

The signs on the flag are actually a pretty good explanation that the upside down flag is not a 911-style distress call, and is in fact intended as political speech. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say all the reports of this "illegal action" to the police department were based in politics as well. Whether the cop was influenced by his politics is unknown to me. The article certainly makes the suspects seem in the wrong, but I don't think they were quoted.

[ViolaLee]

There were two articles posted. Both say the cop broke into their house. Flying a flag upside down is not against the law. The cop was a gung ho soldier just home from Iraq, probably with some ptsd issues.

These Americans do not deserve to have a cop break in their house and abuse them for flying their flag upside down in a distress signal that means our country is in distress.



An upside down flag is not the same as a call to 9-1-1. WRONG!!! An upside down flag IS a call to 911!!!
No - an upside down flag is not a call to 911 and the cop didn't burst in without a warrant to save them, he burst in to arrest them.


I'd like to point out that the couple were not liberals [or at least it isn't likely]. Based on the "on Paul" part of the sign in their living room, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say they were Dr. Paul supporters. Anyway, the police officer appeared to act rationally, given the fact that the couple resisted and acted violently. With that said it is absolutely ridiculous that you can get into any kind of trouble for flying a flag upside-down.

-NC
I don't see that he acted rationally. He broke the glass to open the door without a warrant and put the husband in a choke hold. The wife had to call 911 ON THE COP!

[lawless168]

Well why don't you dial 911 a few times and see what happens......

This couple wanted attention and they got it & I personally think it’s funny. Hope they get a jail sentence of some kind.

[NortheastCynic]

Viola, I understand, but from the quote Lily highlighted, it appears as though the couple assaulted the officer.
Scarborough told Mark Kuhn he was going to be issued a citation and asked for identification. Kuhn refused, slammed the door on the deputy’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting Scarborough’s hand, the Sheriff’s Office said.

Deborah Kuhn said they removed the flag from their front porch after Scarborough threatened to cite them, but they objected to showing Scarborough their IDs, which he needed to write the tickets. Scarborough then broke into their house and came after them, they said.

“He tried to keep us from closing the door, but we managed to get it closed,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We locked the door and he broke the glass to our front door and proceeded to assault my husband, saying, ‘You’re under arrest.’”

The Sheriff’s Office said a struggle ensued when Scarborough followed Kuhn back into the house. At that time, Deborah Kuhn also struck Scarborough in the face, authorities said in arrest reports.

The cop overreacted slightly, but only slightly. The couple acted fairly aggressively.

-NC

[Mayberry]

No - an upside down flag is not a call to 911 Yes, it is. Ask any search and rescue types and they'll tell you. the cop didn't burst in without a warrant to save them, he burst in to arrest them.
Read the article.

[lily]

There were two articles posted. Both say the cop broke into their house. Flying a flag upside down is not against the law. The cop was a gung ho soldier just home from Iraq, probably with some ptsd issues.

Viola.....it's your assumption that the cop was a gung ho soldier and had ptsd. Your article states that more than one report was made and more than one call was made to their house. Also, it is reasonable to expect that a cop is going to put someone in a choke hold after having the door slammed on him and his hand going through the glass. It would be reasonable to think that there was something far more sinster going on behind that door, than a flag being waved. It's his job and he did it. I wouldn't expect any less.

As for the flag and it's rules......I'm sure now that elections are coming up, this will be addressed since it seems flag burning is always a hot button issue only during elections.

[Mayberry]

It seems that Viola's whole issue is that the cop was a soldier in Iraq, so he must be bad. All soldiers who fought in Iraq are inherently evil, don't you know? Or is it all soldiers in general Viola? Are sailors included too? Air Force? Marines?

[ViolaLee]

There's two articles.

Read both of them.

Here is what I found on the upside down flag. Most people apparently don't know what it means.

OCEANSIDE ---- In the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C., Vietnam veteran Dana Rickard began flying his flag upside down, a move which he said caused him to be harassed by some people.

Rickard said flying the flag upside down is a standard military distress signal and was never intended to be disrepectful.

"It means we need some help here. That's American heritage, it has nothing to do with saying anything bad about the flag," said Rickard, an Oceanside resident.

The United States Flag Code supports Richard's statement.

The code formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag and includes the following:



The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.

The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.

The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.

The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything. link (http://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/global-texte/g-a/Upside%20down%20flag%20is%20distress%20signal%20-%209-28-01%20-%20NCTimes_net.htm)

It's a military distress signal and it's not even used anymore. At one time ships turned their flags upside down to signal distress.

The US flag turned upside down means COUNTRY IN DISTRESS.

It does not mean the same thing as dialing 911.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-flip.html

Public Law 829 (77th Congress) Sec. 4(a) :
"The flag should never be displayed with the union down
SAVE AS A SIGNAL OF DIRE DISTRESS"

The flying of your Flag upside-down represents that you see
"This Country IS In Crisis"

http://syninfo.com/Responsibility/

Here are more details to the story and a picture of Mr Kuhn being arrested.

http://www.mountainx.com/images/blogimages/arrest.jpg

Flagged down: Activists arrested in row over protest flag, allege abuse by Buncombe deputy
by David Forbes on 07/26/2007

The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]

The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.

The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.

According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.

Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”

Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.

After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.

“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”

Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”

There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”

The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”

However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.

“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”

Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”

Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.

“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”

Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.

Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”

Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”

Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”

Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.

“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.”
Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.

Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.

This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.

“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”

After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.

A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.

Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.

Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.

Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”

After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”

http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/flagged_down_activists_arrested_in_row_over_protes t_flag_allege_abuse_by_bu

There are lots of stories of people showing dissent with what the Bush admin is doing to our country, by flying the flag upside down in a distress signal.

http://chicagofreespeechzone.com/html/the_tale_of_the_upside-down_fl.html

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_5623827,00.html

Just google upside down flag. Lots of stories.

[Mayberry]

The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
Well Viola, it is obvious that you won't even acknowledge what was written in your own link. At any rate, these people apparently assaulted the cop, and refused to show their ID so he could write them a citation. And if he was able to write them a citation, then they must have violated some law, ordinance, or statute. At any rate, it is disrespectful to fly the flag upside down. Do it on a boat, and the Coast Guard will show up to rescue you, so you had better be in trouble or you'll face a hefty fine. Rightfully so.

[ViolaLee]

It seems that Viola's whole issue is that the cop was a soldier in Iraq, so he must be bad. All soldiers who fought in Iraq are inherently evil, don't you know? Or is it all soldiers in general Viola? Are sailors included too? Air Force? Marines?


Strange. You don't know anything about me and yet you have the nerve to tell me how I feel about the troops. But I realize this is just your brainwashed, right wing, liar lover spin you put on things, so I'll try not to get too angry with you for this rude, arrogant and false statement.


The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
Well Viola, it is obvious that you won't even acknowledge what was written in your own link. At any rate, these people apparently assaulted the cop, and refused to show their ID so he could write them a citation. And if he was able to write them a citation, then they must have violated some law, ordinance, or statute. At any rate, it is disrespectful to fly the flag upside down. Do it on a boat, and the Coast Guard will show up to rescue you, so you had better be in trouble or you'll face a hefty fine. Rightfully so.
It's obvious that I did read it and it's obvious that if you read it, you must have, you quoted it, that you did not comprehend the meaning of the words clearly written in the English language. You are making up a story and no where in my posts does it say anything about it being disrespectful to fly the flag upside down. It says it is a sign of distress.

If you are going to spread misinformation, at least tell us what website you are getting this misinformation from.

[Mayberry]

It's obvious that I did read it and it's obvious that if you read it, you must have, you quoted it, that you did not comprehend the meaning of the words clearly written in the English language.
The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
Plain enough English for you? I comprehend it perfectly. I also comprehend that your not liking how things are going does not constitute distress. Main Entry: 1dis·tress
Pronunciation: di-'stres
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English destresse, from Anglo-French destresce, from Vulgar Latin *districtia, from Latin districtus, past participle of distringere
1 a : seizure and detention of the goods of another as pledge or to obtain satisfaction of a claim by the sale of the goods seized b : something that is distrained
2 a : pain or suffering affecting the body, a bodily part, or the mind : TROUBLE <gastric distress> b : a painful situation : MISFORTUNE
3 : a state of danger or desperate need <a ship in distress>

[Stoner]

So to sum it up for those who are just joining us...a neolib couple decided to show their hate for their country by disrespecting the flag. When an officer tried to write them a citation the neolib slammed the door on the officer's hand and the officer arrested him.

Any questions?

[ViolaLee]

Another one who didn't read the quotes from the articles I posted.

The cop cut his had by smashing the window in the door of the house he was breaking in to.

The couple don't hate or disrespect the flag or the country. An upside down flag means distress. They fly it that way because they feel our country is in distress. We are experiencing a Constitutional crisis.

If you think it means something else, please provide a link to back that up.

Here's the official US flag etiquette.

Flag Etiquette
STANDARDS of RESPECT
The Flag Code, which formalizes and unifies the traditional ways in which we give respect to the flag, also contains specific instructions on how the flag is not to be used. They are:

The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing. It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.

The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard

The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.

The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.

The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.

When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.

The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.

When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of our country, it should be destroyed by burning in a dignified manner.

http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

http://www.legion.org/?section=our_flag&subsection=flag_code&content=flag_respect

http://www.heritage-flag.com/heritage_etiquette.htm

And here is President Bush desecrating the US Flag.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg

In July 2003 President Bush autographed a small flag. This picture was circulated across the Internet noting its violation of the Flag Code: "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature." Photo credit: AP Photo/Charles Dharapak

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bush911.jpg

September 11, 2006, President Bush and first lady Laura Bush stand on a carpet of the American flag at Ground Zero in Manhattan, the site of the September 11, 2001 attack. Section 8b of the Flag Code reads, " The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground..." Photo credit: Reuters/Jason Reed

[PatrickHenry]

The cop's story is an obvious lie. "Slammed the door on his hand causing the glass to break?" Heh. A child could discern this is a crock of sh1t.

And policemen never lie huh, you right-wing pukes?

This excrement of a cop abused his office, took the law into his own hands, broke and entered this couple's home and is being covered by his department, in the blue-wall we are all familiar with. Such cops are the spear's point, the footsoldiers of advancing fascist tyranny in America and there are some ninnies on this thread, including libertarians and liberals who give credence to his transparent lies.

My respect for this forum's brainpower just fell through the floor.

The flag is just a piece of cloth. Its meaning is no better than the republic for which it stands, and that republic is strangling on the power-mad abuses of the Washington crowd. Distress position is the proper way to fly the flag in these times fraught with crisis.

I expect no better from "conservatives", but when liberals and libertarians support tyranny and police lies, we are seeing the end...

[Stoner]

Easy, Patty, this isn't the end of the world. It's just a bunch of neolibs disrespecting the flag who refused to show a cop their ID and slammed the door on the cops hand so hard it caused the glass in the door to shatter, cutting the officer's hand.

Now said neolibs are facing multiple charges. Typical.

[NortheastCynic]

Well allow one of those "ninnies" to respond. :rolleyes:

Police officers lie, yes they do, that is truly a fact. And when they do, I'm the first to criticize. The difference between any other case of a cop lying and this one is...Uh...There's no proof of a lie. There is only your suspicion. Is it possible that the cop lied, sure. Is it possible that the woman lied, yes. Is there proof of either, no. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the woman did not slam the door on the cops hand, thereby breaking the glass. You can say it's nonsense and a transparent lie, but the fact is you cannot prove either. With that said, I did say that the cop overreacted slightly if he put the gentlemen in a choke hold. Regardless, and I'll say it again, there is no proof that the mans hand was not cut by glass nor that the door was slammed shut by the woman.

None.

Calling those who don't believe in a conspiracy or whatever you'd like to call it, 'ninnies' is unbecoming of you , Patrick.

-NC

[Truth_and_Power]

Actually there is definitely evidence of whether it was slammed in a door or cut by glass. It's just a matter of someone with half a brain looking at the guy's hand for 30 seconds. One cut caused by pressure with huge bruising, one sliced with glass with only minimal bruising. I'm sure we can count on the cops to investigate this properly.

Left wingers want to omit "under god" but right wingers want to omit "..and to the republic for which it stands.."

[DANG]

An upside down flag is a universally recognized distress signal communicating an immediate threat to life and/or property. Display of any distress signal when no threat exists is illegal, and for good reason. There is a VERY REAL threat to person and property. It is immediate. If you will turn off your ganster rap, or Faux Newz, or whatever is distracting you, for a second.... you will hear the jackboots of fascism trampling on that same flag you pretend to protect.

That flag is not sacred in itself,.... but for what it represents. It represents free speech as outlined in our Bill of Rights. Which also, of itself, is not physically sacred.... GW Cheney can wipe his ass with it without being throw in jail. But, that Bill of Rights and Constitution are sacred in that they do not give any rights at all. They merely describe the rights that are given by God/Nature.... whatever your concept of God/Nature may be. You even have a right to pursue or worship any concept you wish.... but you should not be allowed to force your perception on another citizen.

gw bush CAN and should; however, be held accountable for every life lost and every limb mangled (foreign and domestic) as a result of his foreign policy of shoot first and and declare Executive Privilege, later.

There are laws against gw bushs kind of religion.... God told him to attack Iraq.... juniors' pile of shiat God is a f#cking homicidal maniac.... or is HE just ignorant? Is it possible the presitards God had "bad intelligence" on those WMD's?

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/6208/godblessqo3.png
... because God is not a bigot!

Peace is patriotic.

Pre-emptive war is murder

[Mayberry]

And policemen never lie huh, you right-wing pukes?
Damn Pat! Take a deep breath. In through the mouth, out through the nose. Oooooohhhhmmmmmm. Oooooooohhhhmmmmmm. There, better now? :P I am inclined to believe the cop. For the most part, police are just Average Joes. I know many cops, several here that I graduated high school with. They just do their job like anyone else. I understand that there are bad cops out there, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. There is a VERY REAL threat to person and property. It is immediate. If you will turn off your ganster rap, or Faux Newz, or whatever is distracting you, for a second.... you will hear the jackboots of fascism trampling on that same flag you pretend to protect.
I hate rap, and CNN:P. As far as "jackboots of fascism".... not so much. If anything, it's "bunny slippers of socialism". And I pretend nothing my friend, I am an American first, a Texan second, and true to both.

[Jaaaman]

Pre-emptive war is murder


No it's not. Not if we are striking first to prevent future attacks on American soil. :rolleyes:

Peaceniks such as yourself are what will eventually cause the downfall of this great country we live in. When our country is one day absorbed by other rogue nations or by pacts such as the European Union you can just eat your utopian words. :shy:

[DANG]

Pre-emptive war is murder


No it's not. Not if we are striking first to prevent future attacks on American soil. :rolleyes:HAHAHA... by that "logic" you can justify the murder of your family and all your neighbors. They could attack you some day!!!

Peaceniks such as yourself are what will eventually cause the downfall of this great country we live in. Peace is un-American?? WOW, what orifice did that come from? When our country is one day absorbed by other rogue nations or by pacts such as the European Union you can just eat your utopian words. :shy:Snap out of it....its the neo-convicts who are going forward with the NAU.

[DANG]

All.
Charges.
Dropped.
Citizen Times (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770802076)

~snip~

"They're being dropped because after reviewing the initial reason why we were at the Kuhn's residence to begin with, it's pretty apparent to us where the Supreme Court stands on this issue (flag desecration) and also it has been dealt with in this state in 1971, and we do not feel like we can successfully prosecute the desecration of the flag statute."

[ViolaLee]

Thank God. I can still recognize my country, even if just barely.

Dang, have I mentioned how great your posts are lately?

:D

[DANG]

Thx, Viola. Yours too!

[Lazarus]

And the lie is exposed.
This all began with some NoGo with a chip on his shoulder. He saw this " umbrage " and called his local PD. Unfortunately, when the officer investigated, billy club was not employed.
Plan B - locate a " friendly " to mete out " justice ". What better place than ones' own NoGo unit.
Enter stage left officer Scarborough.
Desired result , however fleeting, is obtained.
Disregard said fact that Scarborough was acting outside his traditional jurisdiction.
Disregard said fact that Scarborough just so happened to have copy of flag desecration statute on his person.

" All Charges Dropped " = never any substance to bogus claim of assault on officer.

Yet another case of an overzealous law enforcement official.

Can you say civil liberties lawsuit?
I knew that you could.

[Truth_and_Power]

If he wasn't a cop he'd be charged with assault, breaking & entering, and kidnapping. As it stands now, maybe he'll get disciplined by his boss... maybe not.

Double standard?

[ViolaLee]

If he wasn't a cop he'd be charged with assault, breaking & entering, and kidnapping. As it stands now, maybe he'll get disciplined by his boss... maybe not.

Double standard?

He shouldn't be a cop at all. He obviously doesn't know the law.

[DANG]

He shouldn't be a cop at all. He obviously doesn't know the law.
He's done. These people HAVE TO sue. For all of us!

Citizen bush wasnt arrested for desecration, right?
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/images/bushflag.jpg
Nobody busted down his door and frog marched him in front of his neighbors for signing his GOD DAMNED name on the flag!
Rickards is a Viet Nam Vet for crissakes!
Bush was a wartime deserter during that same war. bush should have been shot by the firing squad for TREASON.... If anyone should be cited for flag desecration ... its THAT asshat traitor.

[Truth_and_Power]

If he wasn't a cop he'd be charged with assault, breaking & entering, and kidnapping. As it stands now, maybe he'll get disciplined by his boss... maybe not.

Double standard?

He shouldn't be a cop at all. He obviously doesn't know the law.


Yeah, and he should go to jail for assult.

[DANG]

....Breaking and entering... false arrest/kidnapping...
...and impersonating a peace officer

[lily]

....Breaking and entering...
false arrest/kidnapping...
...and impersonating a peace officer


Hogwash. If they weren't resisting arrest and injuring an officer of the law, then there would be no need to forcefully enter their home and put this man in a headlock. Like it or not, we are a nation of laws. The fact that those people support your opinion does not change the fact that they resisted arrest.

[Truth_and_Power]

....Breaking and entering...
false arrest/kidnapping...
...and impersonating a peace officer


Hogwash. If they weren't resisting arrest and injuring an officer of the law, then there would be no need to forcefully enter their home and put this man in a headlock. Like it or not, we are a nation of laws. The fact that those people support your opinion does not change the fact that they resisted arrest.


One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. ~Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Why We Can't Wait, 1963

[PatrickHenry]

Hogwash. If they weren't resisting arrest and injuring an officer of the law, then there would be no need to forcefully enter their home and put this man in a headlock.
Uhh...Lily, I think that dropping all charges indicates very clearly that THERE WAS NO NEED...

That this policeman exceeded his authority and is HIMSELF a lawbreaker...

[lily]

Uhh...Lily, I think that dropping all charges indicates very clearly that THERE WAS NO NEED...

That this policeman exceeded his authority and is HIMSELF a lawbreaker...


Yes, Pat I know........but it doesn't change my opinion. Both parties over-reacted, but I still stand by my statement that the sherrif was well within his rights to subdue a suspect. No harm came to the man, in fact it's also my opinion, after more than one policeman came to the house on complaints, they may have been waiting for this to happen for the publicity they would recieve.

[ViolaLee]

Lily, why do you believe only one side of the story? The couple deny any wrongdoing. Did you listen to any of the audio on the link that Dang provided? There are a bunch of interviews.

The cop was wrong to and violated their constitutional rights by breaking into their home without a warrant.[hr]

....Breaking and entering...
false arrest/kidnapping...
...and impersonating a peace officer


Hogwash. If they weren't resisting arrest and injuring an officer of the law, then there would be no need to forcefully enter their home and put this man in a headlock. Like it or not, we are a nation of laws. The fact that those people support your opinion does not change the fact that they resisted arrest.


I'd resist being arrested for hanging my flag upside down too, since it's not against the law and the cop himself was breaking the law by breaking into the house.

As you said, like it or not we are a nation of laws, and it's against the law for the cops to do what they did.

[lily]

Lily, why do you believe only one side of the story?

Why do you insist that he is a "A gung ho cop just back from Iraq"?

Viola, I'm going by the local paper and not by a blogger who added his own spin to the story. Same way I'm going by the local paper that Dang linked that said all charges were dropped.

The couple deny any wrongdoing.

......and prisons are full of people saying they also did nothing wrong.



Did you listen to any of the audio on the link that Dang provided? There are a bunch of interviews.

No, my speakers have a short in the wire.

The cop was wrong to and violated their constitutional rights by breaking into their home without a warrant.

I disagree, especially after they assaulted him.


I'd resist being arrested for hanging my flag upside down too, since it's not against the law and the cop himself was breaking the law by breaking into the house.

Well, if you'd resist being arrested, then I'm sorry I would also fight for the cop's right to persue you. Viola, he felt threatened enough to call for 5 police car backups.

Hanging the flag upside down is not against the law, but defacing it with signs is.

State law prohibits anyone from knowingly mutilating, defiling, defacing or trampling the U.S. or North Carolina flags. Lt. Randy Sorrells of the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office said the Kuhns desecrated the flag by pinning signs to it, not by flying it upside down.

Also, this solidifies my original opinion that these people were doing it for the publicity they would gain.

"We are going to do our best to get a civil liberties lawyer from the ACLU,"
Kuhn said.

"We are going to take this big time. Officer Scarborough is not going to get
away with this."

[DANG]

Hogwash. If they weren't resisting arrest and injuring an officer of the law, then there would be no need to forcefully enter their home and put this man in a headlock.The officer should not have crossed the threshhold without a warrant. The pig would not have been hurt if he werent breaking in their house. Link (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070726/NEWS01/70725118)

“He tried to keep us from closing the door, but we managed to get it closed,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We locked the door and he broke the glass to our front door and proceeded to assault my husband, saying, ‘You’re under arrest.’”
Like it or not, we are a nation of laws. Exactly! And if the STATE has a law that is contradictory to the Supreme Court ruling on these cases..... guess which one has to change its course? The state must adjust its own laws. Or be sued.
The fact that those people support your opinion does not change the fact that they resisted arrest. They resisted false arrest. I like T&P's quote a minute ago:"... Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.



Uhh...Lily, I think that dropping all charges indicates very clearly that THERE WAS NO NEED...

That this policeman exceeded his authority and is HIMSELF a lawbreaker...


Yes, Pat I know........but it doesn't change my opinion. Both parties over-reacted, but I still stand by my statement that the sherrif was well within his rights to subdue a suspect. If the fascist pig wants to play hero, why doesnt he arrest gw bush?. Do us all a favor.

[Mayberry]

If the fascist pig wants to play hero, why doesnt he arrest gw bush?. Do us all a favor.

Calm down Finkelstein. All these people had to do was cooperate. All they would have gotten was a citation, which they could have fought in court. Instead, they chose to be a$$holes.

[Jaaaman]

If the fascist pig wants to play hero, why doesnt he arrest gw bush?. Do us all a favor.


It has nothing to do with him playing hero, it has to do with him doing his job... they chose to assault him, and he did what he was trained to do as an officer of the law. End of story.

[lily]

The officer should not have crossed the threshhold without a warrant. The pig would not have been hurt if he werent breaking in their house.

“I think the officer did the appropriate thing by stating his intention to simply issue a citation and let it be worked out in court,” Sorrells said. “If Mr. Kuhn had simply complied with that request for identification and accepted the citation, we would have all gone about our way, and it could have been worked out in court. Once he assaulted the officer, it escalated very quickly.”



“He tried to keep us from closing the door, but we managed to get it closed,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We locked the door and he broke the glass to our front door and proceeded to assault my husband, saying, ‘You’re under arrest.’”

They say he broke the glass, he said they broke the glass. I would imagine if it went to court, some expert will let the truth be known.

They resisted false arrest. I like T&P's quote a minute ago:[quote]"... Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

Well, I don't know how may different ways I can say this, but in this instance I don't agree.

[DANG]

They DID cooperate. Kuhn took the flag down.

Thats another crime to tag on the pigs....
The Kuhns said the Sheriff’s Office kept their flag. Sorrells said he had no record of that. they STOLE their flag.

And this:
Mark Kuhn said he did not attack Scarborough.

“He came after me, and I fought him back,” Kuhn, 43, said. “After I got out of his hold, I ran outside.”
Both clippings from here (http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070726/NEWS01/70725118)

[Jaaaman]

They DID cooperate. Kuhn took the flag down.

Thats another crime to tag on the pigs....


Would you kindly not refer to officers of the law as 'pigs'? It is a very degrading remark. My father was Chief of Police in a small town in Montana for many years. I do not like the term 'pig'.

Thank you.

[DANG]

I have great respect for most cops. When they become outlaws I refer to them as pigs. Dont take it personal, I wasnt talking about your dad.

[ViolaLee]

If the fascist pig wants to play hero, why doesnt he arrest gw bush?. Do us all a favor.


It has nothing to do with him playing hero, it has to do with him doing his job... they chose to assault him, and he did what he was trained to do as an officer of the law. End of story.


He didn't do his job. He broke the law by breaking into a US citizen's house without a warrant.

Some cops are pigs. This one is. Perhaps your father is not. That's good.

Lily asked me Why do you insist that he is a "A gung ho cop just back from Iraq"?

Because he was just back from Iraq and acting like a gung ho cop who didn't know the law and so he made up the law and in doing so broke the law.

[Deputy Brian] Scarborough, who is also a National Guardsman, became a full-time deputy on June 13 after spending seven months in Iraq. Scarborough had been a reserve deputy since 2003.

According to the Sheriff’s Office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint lodged that morning by Staff Sgt. Mark Radford of the National Guard’s 105th Military Police Battalion, which is based in Asheville.

“I’d taken photos on my personal cell phone after I got off duty and out of uniform,” Radford told Xpress. “The [National Guard] Armory is a gathering place for a lot of cops; they’ll come here to do their paperwork. I showed the pictures to him [Scarborough], asked him if it was illegal and left it in his hands.

Obviously this cop didn't try to find out if it was illegal, he just took the law into his own hands.

He should be fired.


“I can’t speak for the Guard, of course, but personally, I felt [the display of the flag] was totally uncalled for,” he added. “If they want to do the political thing, that’s fine, but don’t deface the flag.”

A constitutional act
The U.S. Flag Code, a federal law that spells out rules for flying and displaying the flag, regards an upside-down flag as a distress signal and prohibits attaching anything to the flag. No penalties are prescribed for failing to follow the rules, however, and they are routinely violated by such activities as writing on the flag, using it in clothing or advertising, and flying a dirty or tattered flag.

And in separate rulings in 1989 and 1990, the U.S. Supreme Court found that defacing a flag to express an opinion is a constitutionally protected act of free speech. Furthermore, a 1971 ruling by the District Court for Western North Carolina declared the state statute unconstitutional.

“It’s specifically protected under the Constitution,” said attorney Bruce Elmore, who’s representing the Kuhns. “The founders burned King George in effigy, and protecting that sort of protest was clearly their intent. They realized that it’s unpopular speech that needs protection.” Elmore serves as board president for the American Civil Liberties Union of North Carolina.


This explains why she put the note on the flag explaining why it was upside down.

This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.

“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”

After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.

A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.

Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.

Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.

Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”

After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”



http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/flagged_down_activists_arrested_in_row_over_protes t_flag_allege_abuse_by_bu

http://www.mountainx.com/images/2007/080107debbieandmark.jpg
Expressing distress: Deborah and Mark Kuhn on the porch of their West Asheville house. The glass panel of their front door (not pictured), which was broken during the incident, was recently patched over.

http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/080107flag

[DANG]

They say he broke the glass, he said they broke the glass. I would imagine if it went to court, some expert will let the truth be known. Dont forget the neighbors testimony... they saw the PIG break the window.

(jaaman just gave me a neg rep for using the word pig... so I may use it more than usual for a while. In caps and bold. He did this after I said I wasnt talking about his dad. Whose credential is now dubious)

[Truth_and_Power]

I have cops in the family, as long as its targeted at the real PIGS I don't care.[hr]
They say he broke the glass, he said they broke the glass. I would imagine if it went to court, some expert will let the truth be known. Dont forget the neighbors testimony... they saw the PIG break the window.


Anyone want to guess how they treat Iraqis over there based on this? Does anyone think the guy came back to america and treated americans worse than he'd been treating iraqis.. sorry towel heads or whatever gookish word they use (I'll ask and get back to you).

[ViolaLee]

I'm sure he treated the Americans badly here in the US because he was used to treating the Iraqis badly in Iraq.

That's why I said he probably had some PTSD of some sort. You can't just come home from killing people and settle down to following the laws that we have here, that protect our citizens under the constitution.

He definately needs some treatment, that cop just home from the war. It's obvious after this incident. And it's not easy to get the treatment you need, from this incompetent Bush administration.
link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/16/AR2007061600866.html)
link (http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2005/12/22/141235/16) link (http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=1154&issueID=79)

[PatrickHenry]

There's obviously a lot of folks who still haven't been run over by a bad cop.

When it happens, it sorta creates cynicism regarding the integrity of law enforcement.

See...I like someone there to make wrongdoers quit. But when the badge and gun combine with an arrogant attitude toward innocent people, you get some unfortunate results. The citizens end up fearing the police instead of supporting them. It has happened in many nations and it's happening right here in America. Lawmen need to uphold the laws...all the laws, not just the ones they like. Not just the ones that don't inconvenience them.

I bet everyone who opined on the correctness of that policeman's actions is white and hasn't been tossed by a funky cop...

Blacks and other minorities know that the cops will f*** you up....

[potter]

Get a hitman for the cop.

That's just not right.


So much is not right these days....