Death of the United States Democracy

[Athena]

USA Police State

Before the United States of America engages in any more wars or economic sanctions in the name of democracy, it better take a good look at itself. Only when it had liberal education was it manifesting a social democracy with liberty and freedom. However, since adopting the German model of bureaucracy and German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose, it has changed, just as Germany was changed when the Prussians took control of Germany.

When the Prussians took control of Germany it ended the sovereignty of independent cities, just as the US states are loosing their sovereignty as they allow the federal government to rule over all the states, consolidating power at the federal level. The Prussians also centralized public education, and focused it on technology for military and industrial purpose. This control of public education, allowed them to destroy Germany's national heros, and change national values, making efficiency a higher value than individual freedom, just has been done in the USA, since 1958.

When the USA first warred against Christian Germany, the battle cry was, "Democracy and autocracy can not co exist". However, the USA used the autocratic English model for its industry, proving the two can co exist. And since the USA replaced its liberal education, with the technological model, it is witnessing the same manifestation of a police state with centralized power, that was the enemy it defended its democracy against. In fact, at the end of the second world war, Eisenhower, a military man who became president, praised the Germans for their contribution to democracy. Now if you think the military life is one of liberty and freedom, you might agree with Eisenhower. Their are some who love military and autocratic industrial order, However, it is not the order for which the USA stood. It is not the order of democracy with liberty and freedom. But some God fearing, and evil fearing, let's just say, fearful Christians, could prefer the lack the liberty and freedom that was the Germany the USA fought against, and is what the USA is becoming.

Here is one tiny example of the horror that is swallowing the USA. Education for technology, and the destruction of national heros and praising of efficiency, has justified giving a few people the power of tyranny. The Attorney General of Oregon is one of the these people with the power of tyranny, as his ruling is singular and final.. He has ruled a law can be interpreted to mean, that the state can be sued, if something happens to an adult in a foster home, if the adult was left unattended and state policy allows this. As a result hundreds of adults who were independent, but living in fostering homes because they need assistance, had to give up their house keys, and can not be left on their own when the care provider needs to take someone to a doctors office or go to the grocery store. Now all the once independent adults in foster care, must leave when the care provider leaves. These people have lost dignity and freedom and their independence, because of a decision made without their consensus. There is nothing they can do about it until 2007 when the legislature meets and can rewrite the law, because one man has decided the technological meaning of the law, not the human meaning of it.

All across the USA this fixation on technological correctness and dismissing of human meaning is changing the character of the society. Medial professionals and bankers fear what will happen to them if they do not varify people's addresses. They fear the power of government to punish them, but not what is happening to their democracy. If immediate action is not taken, the liberty and freedom for which their democracy stands, will be as forgotten as the democracy of Athens, and the world will not remember the USA as a nation that stood for liberty and freedom, but as the nation that stands for power and opposed liberty and freedom. Just as those who remember Athens at all, remember the final years when tyrants ruled, not the golden days of Athens democracy. The memory of the liberty the freedom of the USA is dying with its old people, and their children hold values for a police state.

[Mayberry]

All of this comes back around to globalization and all the damage it has done to this country in the name of corporate profiteering. This country was great post WW II. We were the self sufficient manufacturing powerhouse of the world. Americans enjoyed the highest standard of living in the world. Business flourished, families prospered, and life was good. Since this time, life has gone down hill. Crime is up, divorce is up, the wealth gap has widened, the middle class is eroding. Taxes, insurance, and all the other costs of living have soared out of control. We have become a weak, greedy, morally bankrupt country of slouches. A return to isolationism would rebuild our country to the proud stronghold of freedom we once were. Self sufficiency is the source of pride that we are sorely lacking in this country. That American enginuity and can do spirit that is gone now, replaced by imported garbage. We have been lead astray by our leadership, which has also become morally bankrupt in their quest for ever increasing power and personal wealth. Only a complete upheaval and changing of the guard will save us in the end. But this won't happen anytime soon I fear, because the corruption lies so deep, and many Americans today just don't care, or don't have time to care, because just getting by nowadays is all consuming. Maybe that was the master plan?

[Athena]

Oh my goodness we agree on so many points, and if this agreement expands to others there is hope for our children and their children.Â*Â*However, we have one crucial point of disagreement, that must be resolved.Â*Â*The understanding of it is complex and I am not sure how to convey the thought, but will give it a try by chewing one peice of the complex thought.

Let us say 300 people enter a large fertile valley where food grows abundantly with very little effort, and they can market this food to thousands of people living in industrial cities, because there is a railroad connecting them.Â*Â*All these 300 people get large farms and they all become rich.Â*Â*However, they all have 8 children.Â*Â*Now what happens to that wealth?Â*Â*

The oldest son may inherit that farm and then he and his children will enjoy the wealth the farm can produce.Â*Â*However, that leaves all the other sons with nothing. :DÂ*Â*This was the original motivation behind the Vikings.Â*Â*The Vikings were the sons who did not get the farm.Â*Â*When industrialization came along the landless sons could turn to industry, but the person who only has his labor to sell will never be a rich person.Â*Â*

Another option is dividing the farm equally amoung all sons and daughters.Â*Â*Now each ends up with a farm so small, none enjoy wealth.

Here is another look at basically the same thing.Â*Â*Oil is discovered and someone figures out how to use oil and make money with it.Â*Â*A huge industrial complex, beyond the wildest dreams of our forefathers is built on the products made possible because of oil.Â*Â*The states that have oil can provide the public with schools, roads and other public works, without taxing people, because the revenue from oil pays for everything.
Then the day comes when the oil fields are exhausted.Â*Â*Now what happens to the wealth that was built on the discovery of oil?Â*Â*

Or perhaps easier to visualize is what happened during the gold rush.Â*Â*Almost over night boom towns sprung up wherever gold was found.Â*Â*Those who first found the gold and knew how to profit from it became very rich, and they could employ laborers who could buy land dirt cheap because there was a lot of land and a small population, and business men followed the gold diggers and become rich providing the needs and desires of the gold diggers.Â*Â*Property values increased as more and more people move into the boom town.Â*Â*Then.... the gold is gone.Â*Â*The mine owners either live on their wealth or move on.Â*Â*The laborers loose their jobs and the businesses go belly up. The property values crash and the bank closes.Â*Â*The boom town, like all explosions is, gone.Â*Â*What remains after this economic ruin is called a ghost town.Â*Â*

All this time, the population is growing and growing.Â*Â*The demands for roads and other intrastructures increases along with the cost of maintaining these.Â*Â*Property values go up and the banks love this and the economy keeps growing.Â*Â*To maintain this the demand for jobs increases, so we put people to work in the service industry and everything looks great!Â*Â*But now tax payers and shoppers and hamburger eaters, have to pay for these services, because it isn't industry paying for the services that provide the jobs for the masses.Â*Â*In some places 80% of the population has government employment and the city would not exist if it weren't for all these government jobs that tax payers must support.Â*Â* Curse those welfare people living off the government that who are draining our wealth.
Wealth?Â*Â*What wealth?Â*Â* The present appearance of wealth is an illusion that is about to implode.

3,000,000 people in a valley that once gave only 300 people wealth will not have same wealth of the 300 people.Â*Â*The wealth that came with gold, silver and copper mines is now a huge expense to tax payers who got nothing from the mines that closed long ago, because of the polution destroying land and rivers and salmon industry.Â*Â*The national wealth originating from the oil fields is gone, but to keep what is left going, the oil must be imported and as the world competes for that oil, the price keeps going up, and must include the military cost of attempting to secure our economic interest around the world.Â*Â*(Rome)

The wealth of our nation is on a collison course.Â*Â*To maintain our way of life we must keep growing, but the more we grow the more our expenses increase, so the more we must tax the people, and the less they have to spend and the harder it is for them to keep up with inflation, resulting from declining resourses and increasing population. One by one we are loosing the mineral resources that once made the US rich, and therefore we must import more and more to keep going.Â*Â*We can not stop glogalization, because we are no longer minerally self sufficent, and it isn't just the resources we need, but mass production demands mass markets. If we do not sell to rest of the world, we will not have wealth, and this is why minium wage is kept far below the increasing cost of living.

What kind of industry do you think can makes a nation self sufficent and wealthy?Â*Â*It isn't farming, or factory work, or any laborer that can be done any where in the world.Â*Â* Without the mineral resources that produce revenue and support industry, there is no wealth.Â*Â*Not even Japan, a resourceless country, can maintian its industry without mineral resources, and while the world's resources are being consumed, the populations of the world, and therefore the expense of maintianing them, keeps growing.Â*Â* Now how is self sufficency maintain?Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*

[Mayberry]

Now how is self sufficency maintain? That is where that American ingenuity that seems to be lost comes into play. I don't have all the answers, but here are a few things that may get us back on track.

Recycle! Duh! That's what the Japanese and Chinese are doing. They're buying our scrap steel up faster than we can generate it. We can use our own scrap to produce new products.

Waste to Energy. (another duh?) We have mountains of garbage decaying in landfills that can be tapped for power production, by either burning the refuse, or tapping the methane produced by the rotting refuse. Along with solar, wind power, and a renewed nuclear program, we can maintain electrical energy independence. Right now, the move is going towards LNG (liquefied natural gas), which will be yet another expensive import, causing already high electricity prices to soar further.

I also advocate what's known as "Distributed Generation", which has already happened to some degree. The basic concept is that power is generated on site (your home, business..). Excess power is sold to the power company, or if your generation is not enough for your own use from time to time, you import power from the electric company. This saves (or even makes) you money, saves the power company money (less new generation and transmission costs) and is more efficient due to shorter transmission distances (less losses in the power lines). Less wasted energy, less distribution costs equals savings for everyone, and less fuel burned. Independence. This is an expensive endeavour for the individual initially, but tax credits or other incentives could offset the initial expense. Better yet, adopt the "Fair Tax" and I'll have enough money to invest in all this. But that's a subject for another thread.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head, I'm sure there's many more.

[Nathan Brazil]

All of this comes back around to globalization and all the damage it has done to this country in the name of corporate profiteering.

Oh? What about globalism in the form of "one world government", the efforts to submerge the Constitution under international law, and the UN?

That great post-war economy? The US was a global economic powerhouse then because....well because no other country had any factories left. So we did a bang up export trade until they got their feet under them again.

What's happened since then can best be described as a restoration of balance. Other countries saw automobiles as a way to create jobs, independence, and exports. Frankly, the US lost the car chase because Ford and GM started producing total junk, and the Japanese cars were better, especially when the Arabs turned off the oil. High US car prices driven by high US labor prices certainly helped Americans choose imports over Detroits, too. Guess what? Americans now have choices between good foreign and good domestic cars, a phrase which is also losing meaning, anyway, and over all, if you're not a member of the UAW, you're better off as a result.

American fish canneries closed up shop. Why? Because, among other things, unions were demanding $17 an hour to gut fish, when Starkist could pay a proper wage in Thailand and then import the stuff. Union fish gutters lost out. The rest of America benefitted from reasonably priced food.

Ditto that for just about every industry. It's called competition. It's called growth. It's called freedom. Isolationism? Protectionism? That only protects the corporate owners and minority classes of workers in the protected industries. Everyone else suffers.

I benefit from cars made elsewhere, clothes made elsewhere, and so does everyone else.

Moral bankruptcy? Depends on how you define it. Any alleged moral decline is relative, and it would be pretty hard to pin it on "globalism".

Oh, and the "wealth gap". That's the only possible outcome in a growing economy. The poor will always be close to zero, the richest will always be surfing the crest of the waves. It's called "life".

A return to isolationism would destroy this country. We don't have enough oil, we don't have enough horses, and I'll be damned if I'll peddle a bike to power up the TV. Not to mention imports of chromium, titanium, bananas, truffles, or Pokemon cards.

[Nathan Brazil]

Here is one tiny example of the horror that is swallowing the USA. Education for technology, and the destruction of national heros and praising of efficiency, has justified giving a few people the power of tyranny.Â*Â*The Attorney General of Oregon is one of the these people with the power of tyranny, as his ruling is singular and final..Â*Â*He has ruled a law can be interpreted to mean, that the state can be sued, if something happens to an adult in a foster home, if the adult was left unattended and state policy allows this.Â*Â*As a result hundreds of adults who were independent, but living in fostering homes because they need assistance, had to give up their house keys, and can not be left on their own when the care provider needs to take someone to a doctors office or go to the grocery store.Â*Â*Now all the once independent adults in foster care, must leave when the care provider leaves.Â*Â*These people have lost dignity and freedom and their independence, because of a decision made without their consensus.Â*Â*There is nothing they can do about it until 2007 when the legislature meets and can rewrite the law, because one man has decided the technological meaning of the law, not the human meaning of it.

So, are they independent people, or are they people in foster care? They can't be both.