Hawaiian Sovereignty

[PatrickHenry]

Hawaii is a sovereign nation occupied and colonized by Uncle Sam. It is a Polynesian kingdom whose location is 2,400 miles from the closest point of the US mainland.

The Kingdom of Hawaii had a treaty of friendship and trade with the US and no previous conflicts. Her last monarch, Queen Liliuokalani was overthrown by a conspiracy of wealthy caucasians who spoke American English and were the offspring of US missionaries.

Hawaii at that time was likely the nation with the highest literacy on earth. It was a thriving, culturally distinct nation with newspapers, steamships and telephones.

The coup was supported by a landing of US Marines under orders from the US minister to Hawaii, who apparently had no authorization from the Administration to lend support to the conspirators.

When President Cleveland sent an investigator to look into the matter, the minister, John L Stevens was recalled and forced into retirement.

The US Congress apologized formally in 1993, signed by the President.

Hawaii is a stolen nation, and Uncle Sam has acted in the same manner as the Russian Bear's theft of the Baltic Republics.

They have regained their independence...why should Hawaii not also be freed?

[Alonzo]

I think the argument for an independent hawaii begins and ends with the fact that the idea lacks popular support in hawaii. It's one of those things that shouldn't have happened, but you'd be going against the will of the people if you were to reverse it.

Though you overlook the participation of wealthy native hawaiians in the overthrow and paint an overly rosey picture of what hawaii was.

[PatrickHenry]

I think the argument for an independent hawaii begins and ends with the fact that the idea lacks popular support in hawaii. It's one of those things that shouldn't have happened, but you'd be going against the will of the people if you were to reverse it.
You are mistaken, my friend.
http://www.hawaii-nation.org/
The US colonists cannot descend on another nation, then claim that since the indigenous are outnumbered their views are unrealistic.

Or maybe you think the US should not be a nation of laws...

[BoogyMan]

I think the argument for an independent hawaii begins and ends with the fact that the idea lacks popular support in hawaii. It's one of those things that shouldn't have happened, but you'd be going against the will of the people if you were to reverse it.
You are mistaken, my friend.
http://www.hawaii-nation.org/
The US colonists cannot descend on another nation, then claim that since the indigenous are outnumbered their views are unrealistic.

Or maybe you think the US should not be a nation of laws...


Hmmm, thanks for the link Patrick. This is the first I have ever heard about something like this. Looks like I have some reading to do.

[Alonzo]

I think the argument for an independent hawaii begins and ends with the fact that the idea lacks popular support in hawaii. It's one of those things that shouldn't have happened, but you'd be going against the will of the people if you were to reverse it.
You are mistaken, my friend.
http://www.hawaii-nation.org/
The US colonists cannot descend on another nation, then claim that since the indigenous are outnumbered their views are unrealistic.

Or maybe you think the US should not be a nation of laws...


How much of the non indegenous population living there was involved in the taking of the land? You can't punish people who did nothing wrong in the first place.

I remember a poll conducted in Hawaii years ago that showed that their was not majority support for independence. If the native populations opinion was specifically polled as well I'm pretty sure they didn't support it, but I can't remember if they were separated from the non native population in the poll. Either way, anything dealing with the sovereignity of Hawaii affects everyone.

Both the native hawaiians and the descendents of the colonists have the same rights. This isn't like Israel where one population is putting discrimination against the other into law (though, if anything, your link suggests the native hawaiians are discriminating), or enacting measures to remove people who otherwise would form a majority.

Get the majority to support it and I'll agree, don't have it and I won't.

[Alonzo]

Forty-seven percent of native Hawaiians polled completely favored or partly favored the sovereignty movement, 32 percent were opposed, 18 percent were undecided, and 3 percent didn't know, according to a poll done before the U.S. Supreme Court ruling invalidating Hawaiians-only elections. Officials from the Office of Hawaiian Affairs, which commissioned the poll last year, said interest in sovereignty has likely risen given the Rice vs. Cayetano ruling. But they had no more recent poll results.
Among those native Hawaiians supporting sovereignty, according to the poll:

68 percent believed the sovereign nation should control its own natural resources.

65 percent believed the sovereign nation should be governed by an elected leader.

64.6 percent believed all ceded lands should be returned to a sovereign Hawaiian nation.

62.8 percent believed the new entity should have its own lawmaking body.

Among non-Hawaiians polled, 42 percent completely or partly favored the sovereignty movement, 34 percent were opposed, 21 percent were undecided and 4 percent did not know, the poll said.

The survey included 3,975 respondents, including 1,764 who identified themselves as Hawaiian and 2,211 who were not Hawaiian.


http://starbulletin.com/2000/03/20/special/story3.html

That was in 2000, and there's likely more support for some sovereignity than true independence.

[PatrickHenry]

That was in 2000, and there's likely more support for some sovereignity than true independence.
Do you have an issue with secession generally? Why should a formerly independent nation accept an overlord? (Maybe just to avoid being targeted by the overlord's goons?)

I don't think that Hawaii would have any problem being a close friend and ally of the US. And I think that a sovereign and independent Hawaii would be very considerate of US military basing.

There are many mixed race families here, and in some ways this may be the least prejudiced spot on the planet...

[Buck Laser]

National Geographic ran a significant article 6 or 7 years ago about the Hawaiian Sovereignty movement. I hadn't heard of it otherwise, but since then I've seen a good number of articles about it. My reading on Hawaiian history over the last few years has made it clear that the way the US acquired Hawaii wasn't really Kosher (so to speak).

[Alonzo]

I have an issue with supporting independence that lacks the support of the majority of the population.

I also have an issue with giving one group say that is disproportionate to their numbers other than in special circumstances. Such circumstances would likely have been in place in the 1920's, not today where all those involved in the takeover are long dead. You want to favor a certain group simply due to their ethnic background.

[PatrickHenry]

I have an issue with supporting independence that lacks the support of the majority of the population.Hmm...If my larger family moves into your family's compound, are you ok with being outvoted? I have actually invited homeless families to share my place for a time. Should they be able to tell me what happens in my house? Or does ownership play any part in determining that?

I also have an issue with giving one group say that is disproportionate to their numbers other than in special circumstances. Such circumstances would likely have been in place in the 1920's, not today where all those involved in the takeover are long dead. You want to favor a certain group simply due to their ethnic background.
Not so. There are many of us caucasians and other US nationals who would support an independent Hawaiian nation and change our citizenship. Ethnicity is not the key to modern nationhood. International law and historical justice is.

If the propaganda machine for sovereignty operated at the volume of Uncle Sam's media chorus, I think you would see large majorities happy to ditch the US as an overlord.

And don't think that those who would choose to retain US citizenship would be driven out. We abide by the law here and resident aliens would be welcome to stay and contribute to the national culture. Actually there are many foreign nationals in Hawaii at the present time, often married to people who are from here.

True that those not wishing to swear allegiance to a sovereign Hawaii would be disenfranchised. But, hmpf, how good is anybody's vote for influencing the direction Uncle Sam takes? :P

[Alonzo]

Hmm...If my larger family moves into your family's compound, are you ok with being outvoted? I have actually invited homeless families to share my place for a time. Should they be able to tell me what happens in my house? Or does ownership play any part in determining that?

In that situation you have priority, but that's not hawaii. A better example would be if they stay in your compound for over 100 years, all the original people die, and now their children are the ones living these and one claims their opinion is more valuable simply because their parents had a better claim to ownership than the other peoples parents. The fact that they both have lived their entire lives in that place gets ignored.

Not so. There are many of us caucasians and other US nationals who would support an independent Hawaiian nation and change our citizenship. Ethnicity is not the key to modern nationhood. International law and historical justice is.

You don't take away the rights of people living today to correct the rights of people that were infringed over 100 years ago. Get a majority of the population to support you, grant full equality to all members of that society, and I'll agree with you. Right now you don't have a majority, and things such as native only schools would need to be opened for everyone, something which the people on that website seemed to be complaining about.

Why should you have any more claim to a land than I do when we've both been there since birth?

[PatrickHenry]

May I propose that if I can successfully steal your car for a certain period, I may keep it?

How long does a stolen item remain stolen?

[Alonzo]

May I propose that if I can successfully steal your car for a certain period, I may keep it?

How long does a stolen item remain stolen?


You have yet to explain why a policy such as this, one that lacks majority support, should be enacted. And you have yet to explain why you should punish the children for what their ancestors did.

Your solution doesn't make sense. The righting of a wrong requires steps that most don't want, and it requires the punishment of people who did not take anything but have been born and raised in hawaii.

[Buck Laser]

May I propose that if I can successfully steal your car for a certain period, I may keep it?

How long does a stolen item remain stolen?

Patrick, there's an old adage in the law: "Possession is nine points of the law." It applies particularly to the possession of land. I'm not saying it's right, but that is more or less the practice, as derived from English common law.

[ECW]

I'm stealing me a Lexus this afternoon.

[Labrocca]

IMHO Hawaii would be a Japanese state if it wasn't for America..or possibly annexed by another nation. And if you let Hawaii leave then why not Alaska, Texas, California, and a slew of other states. It's the union that strengthens us...no matter how it was obtained.

The world is also a different place now. Let's look at Puerto Rico...they have been given the chance repeatedly to be a state and it gets voted down every time. So it's not like we are imperialists. I can't speak about Hawaiian history but unless we killed thousands of Hawaiians and took it by military force...I don't see that big of a problem with it being a state. I have more of a problem with Texas...it was also a sovereign nation for a short time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas

Imagine if Texas wasn't a state...we might not have Bush as President today. :)

[PatrickHenry]

May I propose that if I can successfully steal your car for a certain period, I may keep it?

How long does a stolen item remain stolen?

Patrick, there's an old adage in the law: "Possession is nine points of the law." It applies particularly to the possession of land. I'm not saying it's right, but that is more or less the practice, as derived from English common law.
Let's see...do you keep your car in the driveway? Care to tell me your address?

Joke, joke, joke...

[Phyxius]

Imagine if Texas wasn't a state...we might not have Bush as President today. :)


Well, given that the Bush family are Yankees (W was born in New Haven, Connecticut), you'd still be stuck with him... ;)

[Yushimi]

I always thought about Hawaii being its own nation and hell, maybe it should. But today I KNOW that a small country will have a disadvantage to those larger ones IF a world war EVER happened again. It wouldn't be the dumb decision with Hitler invatind Russia, it would be an island like Hawaii.

So Its safe to say that Hawaii would be protected by us.

[PatrickHenry]

The Kingdom of Hawaii was a friend to the US. How did the US repay that friendship? Collusion to overthrow the legitimate government, followed by occupation and colonization.

Uncle Sam's a hypocrite...

[sparks]

Having been to Hawaii I can attest that there is a faction of folks who want their independence back. But, I don't think you can put Pandora back in the box one's it's out. Hawaii is now part of the U.S. and has a lot of people who like it that way...including a whole lot of folks living in Hawaii.

It would almost be like the South wanting to secede from the Union again...and we all know that ain't gonna happen either. Hawaii is now part of the machine, and I don't see that changing in spite of the wishes of some.

[PatrickHenry]

Regardless of how impossible the situation seems...things do change.

The USSR released the Baltics back to independence.

And I think there is nothing in the Constitution that says any state may not secede, much less a formerly sovereign nation that was undermined and overthrown by Uncle Sam...

[David Hume]

Gotta agree with Patrick here. I'm friends with some native Hawaiians. They'd love autonomy, and from what they tell me, most native Hawaiians desire independence. To say that any person of European or Japanese descent (the majority populations on the islands these days) should have say is, to use Patrick's metaphor, akin to polling the Politburo as to what to do with Latvia, Lithuania, & Estonia. . .

[sparks]

Regardless of how impossible the situation seems...things do change.

The USSR released the Baltics back to independence.

And I think there is nothing in the Constitution that says any state may not secede, much less a formerly sovereign nation that was undermined and overthrown by Uncle Sam...

Then theoretically that could include the southern states as well seeing as they were a nation for a short period of time.

I don't see that happening though...what would be gained? What would be lost?

[sparks]

Gotta agree with Patrick here. I'm friends with some native Hawaiians. They'd love autonomy, and from what they tell me, most native Hawaiians desire independence. To say that any person of European or Japanese descent (the majority populations on the islands these days) should have say is, to use Patrick's metaphor, akin to polling the Politburo as to what to do with Latvia, Lithuania, & Estonia. . .


How many true, native bloodline Hawaiians are there left though? Many have mixed though the years and have not stayed true to the bloodline. So...that presents a bit of a dilemma.

[PatrickHenry]

How many true, native bloodline Hawaiians are there left though? Many have mixed though the years and have not stayed true to the bloodline. So...that presents a bit of a dilemma.
Good point, my friend.

But what about those who have little or no Polynesian ancestry, yet call for Hawaiian Sovereignty anyhow based upon a just cause?

For myself, I would gladly take citizenship in a sovereign Hawaii, though I have no Hawaiian ancestry whatsoever...

In fact, the Hawaii of the era of overthrow, 1893-1898, was a mixed race nation. The citizens of the Kingdom of Hawaii were not pure Hawaiian.

[sparks]

How many true, native bloodline Hawaiians are there left though? Many have mixed though the years and have not stayed true to the bloodline. So...that presents a bit of a dilemma.
Good point, my friend.

But what about those who have little or no Polynesian ancestry, yet call for Hawaiian Sovereignty anyhow based upon a just cause?

For myself, I would gladly take citizenship in a sovereign Hawaii, though I have no Hawaiian ancestry whatsoever...

In fact, the Hawaii of the era of overthrow, 1893-1898, was a mixed race nation. The citizens of the Kingdom of Hawaii were not pure Hawaiian.


Would that really make a difference if they had no ownership in the decision? If they weren't a resident of Hawaii, why should they have a say?

I'd venture to say that a lot of corporations and business's located in Hawaii wouldn't be too keen on the idea of a separation from the U.S. at this point. I would think the upheaval would create somewhat of a hostile business climate and that wouldn't be very good for the Hawaiian economy independent of the U.S. In short, I really see no benefit to Hawaii seceding...only problems.

Chances are that if it doesn't make good business and financial sense, it won't have the backing necessary to make it happen. As I said early on, Hawaii is now part of the machine.

[PatrickHenry]

I understand your argument, sparks. And I admit it does make sense from a certain POV. But know this...Hawaii is another nation.

It is not America. It is American occupied Hawaii.

And as a business owner, I would seriously like to get out from under Uncle Sam's confiscatory thumb...

I think that a sovereign Hawaii would remain a friend of the US, despite being abused and occupied for decades. We have a lot of connections. Not to mention some very useful military bases.

How long does it take before stolen property becomes rightfully owned?

[sparks]

I understand your argument, sparks. And I admit it does make sense from a certain POV. But know this...Hawaii is another nation.

It is not America. It is American occupied Hawaii.

And as a business owner, I would seriously like to get out from under Uncle Sam's confiscatory thumb...

I think that a sovereign Hawaii would remain a friend of the US, despite being abused and occupied for decades. We have a lot of connections. Not to mention some very useful military bases.

How long does it take before stolen property becomes rightfully owned?


Every place on Earth was stolen from someone at some point...I don't know the statute of limitations on such. I suppose one could say that we stole the U.S. from the British and that the British stole it from the American Indians.

So reducing your argument to the lowest common demoninator, the American Indians are the rightful owner of this country and perhaps they should kick us out of their country? We're only squatters! :lmao:

Does the fact that the Hawaiian situation is more recent make it a more worthy or emotional issue?

[PatrickHenry]

I think it is a current issue before a world audience.

Why would anyone of good conscience attempt to legitimize imperialism? Creating an empire by force is contrary to the democratic ideals America was allegedly founded upon...

[sparks]

I think it is a current issue before a world audience.

Why would anyone of good conscience attempt to legitimize imperialism? Creating an empire by force is contrary to the democratic ideals America was allegedly founded upon...


Hawaii was a lot longer ago than Iraq. They were a sovereign nation too! Hawaii is a done deal...Iraq's current.

And frankly I really don't think the world cares too much about whether Hawaii finds their independence again or not. It's actually a blip on the radar screen in the grand scheme of things.

Should we give the South back their Confederate states as well? How about the Louisiana purchase deal? Should we return those lands to the French? In other words...where does it end?

[HumanBeast]

If Hawaii can break away from the USA peacefully like the Czech Republic and Slovokia did, I don't think it would bother me.


However, even if Hawaii did that, what if the friendship between it and the USA faded sometime in the future? Who would it turn to for protection?

[Deadshot]

Hawaii, nor any State in the Union isn't going anywhere.

If there was a State the could financially, as well as diplomatically leave, it would be California, but Hawaii just couldn't make it.

[PatrickHenry]

Hawaii, nor any State in the Union isn't going anywhere.

If there was a State the could financially, as well as diplomatically leave, it would be California, but Hawaii just couldn't make it.


Are you saying Hawaii needs the US as a sugar daddy?

The US is spending itself into a abyss of debt and dragging Hawaii down with it. Why do we need your ratty ass?

The tourists of the world love this place.

[Deadshot]

And so do Americans. Do you think we'd just "give up" Hawaii? Grow up.

As to playing "sugar daddy", EVERY state in the union get's some love from Uncle.

But it's a moot point, ever since Pearl Harbor was established as a Naval base, especially after WWII and 7 Dec 41, Hawaii will always be a state. Strategically and Historically Hawaii is linked to the United States of America.

Patrick you might as well be trying to get Missouri to leave the Union.

[PatrickHenry]

And so do Americans. Do you think we'd just "give up" Hawaii? Grow up.

As to playing "sugar daddy", EVERY state in the union get's some love from Uncle.

But it's a moot point, ever since Pearl Harbor was established as a Naval base, especially after WWII and 7 Dec 41, Hawaii will always be a state. Strategically and Historically Hawaii is linked to the United States of America.

Patrick you might as well be trying to get Missouri to leave the Union.
What kind of love does the FedGov hand out? More like endless seas of red ink!

As to the bases...Many foreign nations host US military personnel and assets.

I assume you disapproved of the Baltic nations seeking independence from Russia? Clearly not a fan of self-determination...

[AlanC]

Patrick,

From your posts, it sounds like you are part of the white establishment that "stole" the islands from the native population.

What makes you think they will let you stay, tax free, once they have their nation back? It doesn't sound like they like the idea of you even being there.

I'm also a bit confused as to whether the aims of this movement is supported by a majority of all the residents of Hawaii, or just the 20% that are native Hawaiian or 50% native by blood.

It sounds as though there are several conflicting goals, depending on who your are talking too. Total independance, autonomy for the "native" population, greater autonomy for the state from the Feds...what? And when you say a majority is actually in favor of this, which version is it?

And none of the Baltic nations ever petitioned Russia by popular vote asking to be included in the Soviet Union.

[PatrickHenry]

OK, Alan. Reasonable questions.

You think I am part of the "white establishment?" Based upon my ethnicity? That's a pretty racist argument isn't it?

Let's see...if you are white does that make you part of the slave trading establishment that brought Blacks to America?

It's not your ethnicity that counts. You can't pay for the sins of your ancestors. It's your understanding of what actually happened and your commitment to restitution and reconciliation.

And I would not need to be tax-free in a sovereign Hawaii. I would gladly pay my way as a citizen in a smaller, more responsive government in my island nation. I am assuming that Hawaii would not be a militaristic, aggressor nation like Uncle Sam.

Perhaps you are not cognizant that the Kingdom of Hawaii was and is a mixed race kingdom. Ethnicity is not a factor in citizenship. Civilized, see, just like a lot of other nations.

A surprising number of people of all races support Hawaiian sovereignty. I don't have any polling figures, just a familiarity with the local scene.

Did I say a majority is in favor? If I did, I apologize. I don't have those numbers.

But my vote would be for complete autonomy from the USA. With good diplomatic and trade relations, and perhaps a military alliance. This based upon the goodwill and friendship, even family relationships of many in Hawaii and the US.

There is a Congressional Apology, signed by the President for the US role in the overthrow of the legitimate government here. Why should there be no restitution to the status quo ante?

I submit that landing US Marines and pointing weapons at the monarch's palace was an act of war and conquest against a kingdom that had friendship and trust for the US.

The vote in 1959? It had approval by a majority, true. But here's another little fact: There was not a place on the ballot to vote for independence! The UN regulation regarding non-selfgoverning territories was ignored. The plebiscite was required to have a ballot position for independence.

You might say that the US siezed and colonized an independent nation, then brought enormous numbers of foreigners, and propagandized them so heavily that the whole process was illegitimate.

That is my view. Uncle Sam is the conqueror of Hawaii, not its legitimate ruler...

[AlanC]

You think I am part of the "white establishment?" Based upon my ethnicity? That's a pretty racist argument isn't it?

Patrick, “white” was perhaps a poor word to choose and I wasn’t making a statement of how I saw you, but rather how you are perceived by the majority with this movement for autonomy or independence. A better choice of word would have been non-native as it seems the impetus for this movement is drawn from those who see themselves as being part of the native Hawaiian people.

This impression, mine, comes from two sources. The first is that link you posted. For example, those who formed the native only village on the island of Hawaii are accepting only people who can prove at least 50% native blood for residency. If that was all there was to it, I could understand it. But the article went on to say that non-natives and visitors were distinctly not welcome. Now that indicates a biased attitude if not racist. My pointing out that such an attitude exists does not make my comment racist.

The second source for this perception is that I have known 5 different couples who used to live on the islands and one woman who I used to work with and lives there now. The response I get when I ask why anyone would leave such a paradise usually has only two reasons. They cite the cost of land and living and the sometimes openly racist dislike by those who see themselves as part of the native population.

Thus my perception is that some in the movement for autonomy may see you as part of their problem and not necessarily welcome your support. I grant you that my perception is based on merely minimal information and thus my questions to you.

Did I say a majority is in favor? If I did, I apologize. I don't have those numbers.

I apologize as that was not your statement. It was from someone else’s post back a bit and it said that this movement is supported by a majority of the native population. The link you provided included the estimation that the native population makes up roughly 20% of the current population of Hawaii. So I guess I answered my own question with that one.

Perhaps you are not cognizant that the Kingdom of Hawaii was and is a mixed race kingdom. Ethnicity is not a factor in citizenship. Civilized, see, just like a lot of other nations.

Yes, I am cognizant of this fact. Since the Hawaiian Islands are actually the tip of and underwater mountain range on the floor of the Pacific Ocean and are the result of volcanic action, there is perhaps no such thing as a “native” population. And while the majority of those that found their way to the islands are of Polynesian blood, there is a long history of others coming to and assimilating into the population of the islands. But, again, my knowledge in this area is admittedly limited.

But my vote would be for complete autonomy from the USA. With good diplomatic and trade relations, and perhaps a military alliance. This based upon the goodwill and friendship, even family relationships of many in Hawaii and the US.

This gets to the meat of what I was asking. Would you and all the other residents, business and property owners even get a vote? What I have been reading is that many of those “natives” who want this are openly hostile to the idea of outsiders even having a say in how this progresses. Granted there seem to be a variety of ideas as to how this is to proceed and I would imagine that the very diversity of opinion itself would prevent a majority wanting your specific outcome. Like all serious political discussions, what one hears is going to change dramatically from one location to another. Is there any credible polling of the entire population on this topic?

I submit that landing US Marines and pointing weapons at the monarch's palace was an act of war and conquest against a kingdom that had friendship and trust for the US.

I will not argue that point, you would be quite correct. As always though it comes down to a matter of justification and that is usually in the eye of the beholder. Though I imagine in this instance I would agree with you on the justification issue as well.

Why should there be no restitution to the status quo ante?

I have no idea here what you mean. What is restitution to the status quo ante? You mean turn the clock back and simply declare Hawaii an independent nation similar to the outcome in the Philippines? Off the top of my head, I would see that as probably the most unlikely of occurrences.

History can almost never be undone. Hawaii is no longer the Hawaii of the 1800’s and neither is the United States. This may be a fact that we both lament, but it is what it is. I will look forward to hearing more on this, but if I had to bet, I would say you will continue to be frustrated in your quest for that stated outcome.

This has all been an interesting read. I was unaware that this was even a discussion in Hawaii. Thanks for the information and the post.

[PatrickHenry]

Cool, Alan. Thanks for taking the time to look into this.

As to the racism in Hawaii, frankly it exists.

However in many ways it is undermined by the circumstances.

First, Hawaii has a traditional concept of "Aloha" or welcome for visitors. That sort of background cultural bias is not easily swept aside. There really is a spirit of love and interest in others in much of the polynesian-descended folks. And it is an undercurrent of the broader culture here.

Second, there is a lengthy tradition of mixed race marriages in Hawaii. The first agricultural immigrant group were Chinese, and even today, if someone is Hawaiian, they are usually Chinese/Hawaiian! The arms-length race traditions of other nations were not so applicable here.

The one immigrant group that did maintain cohesiveness was the Japanese, and that has broken down to a great extent, too, in the last fifty years.

There is some anti-haole sentiment. It is expressed more freely among the lower class, poorer local people, who in their ignorance of history, blame the "white people" for all their troubles. Since caucasians are in a minority, sometimes an encounter with a mass of hostile voices can be overwhelming. But I must point out that there are many, many families of a mom and dad being two very distinct ethnicities and having tremendous acceptance in the community. Being community leaders...

I have had some fruitful interaction with Hawaiian sovereignty activists. It is true that many of them are clearly of polynesian descent. But nearly all of them have at least some component, even a strong strain of other ethnic background, and many are very nearly pure caucasian to look at them. And they have never made me feel like an outsider. When I speak with them knowledgeably about the issues and extend my approval of the goals of a return to independent status, I don't get any kind of attitude. They seem genuinely welcoming of my presence and my input.

I have lived in the cities of the mainland US. I have viewed the racism there over a lifetime, from growing up in the Jim Crow South, to being assaulted by blacks, to being denigrated by a drunken Mexican friend whose inhibitions had dropped. I will tell you that IMO, Hawaii is one of the least racist places on earth. If people experience what they interpret as racism, many times it is because they are unwittingly transgressing subtle cultural threshholds and causing offense. It is not always due to their racial status, but often to their "mainland ways."

As to opting out of the USA, you may be correct that it is not possible. Yet I have hope. The US is failing before our eyes. Insurmountable debt, off-the-charts trade imbalances, the growing Federal Police state...These things and many others may bring on a revolt that will shatter the US.

I still believe in rule of law and in self-determination. I call for people to be responsible for themselves and their families and communities. There are aspects of the Federal system that I support and would call for in any government entity. But the USA may not last forever. Many empires have disintegrated in world history. The USA would not be the first.

[Osborn F. Enready]

I support smaller government, so I would support Hawaii seperating.

[brien]

Great Britian backed out of Hong Kong when the "lease" expired, and China is once again looking to take back Taiwan, so these things can go either way. Self determination is what mankind is all about, so if Hawaii votes for independence then I support it. That said, I doubt the US imperialist war mongers would ever cede Hawaii back to the citizens who own it because of its strategic importance to the East.