Pattern Favors Democrats in '08

[ClayBarham]

Look back almost 400 years ago, when the New England settlements produced a new beginning in people’s relationships. They introduced individual freedom to America and the world. It spread and grew across the North American Continent, creating the greatest free nation and economic super-power ever known in this world. New England today, however, is the home of American Socialism. New Englanders support Old World’s ideals where the few rule the many. New Englanders once promoted individual liberty across America. Now, they infect Americans with Old World beliefs in the primacy of community interests above individual interests. Today’s Democratic Party promises us the modern New England idealism of dictatorship and America on its knees. Today’s Republican Party no longer takes a stand for America’s prosperity through freedom, leaving the Democrats a clear road to victory in 2008.

[ECW]

This post is wrong on so many levels.

New Englanders did not introduce individual freedom to America. The English did. Other people were free before then but not to the extent we were.

They were free because they believed in community interests, not inspite of them. Ignoring those interests leads to the Social Darwinism that is ripping our country apart. They actually lived their Christianity, unlike our current crop of GOPers that merely pay homage to it but don't live it. Sunday Christians we used to call them.

"Infect?" Don't get me started on your boy George and how he has "infected" the body politic.

And this crock of crap: "Today’s Democratic Party promises us the modern New England idealism of dictatorship and America on its knees." The neocons who run this dog and pony show are a whole lot closer to a dictatorship than anything the Democrats could ever imagine much less put into place.

You are just mad that your rightwing buddies in Washington have sold out and you didn't get your cut of the hush money.

[Buck Laser]

ECW, maybe you haven't been around enough lately to realize the totally idiosyncratic view ClayBarham has of American history. Apparently, his views have some precedents, but they're new to me. He claims that the Puritans are the epitome of the American ideal, and that their thinking actually created this country. Go figure. No enlightenment, no British or European thinkers. I guess Ben Franklin just wasted all that time in Europe.

But everything Clay says is filtered through this weird filter, and you "can't tell the players without a program" without that bit of information. Not that it really helps, though.

[ECW]

Another CWN without the goofy numbers... thanks for the tip, Buck. You're OK for a Republican.

[ViolaLee]

Somethings desperately wrong with our school system for people to come out of it believing strange fiction like this OP.

[quiet man]

the tide of desire for a new approach have linked up with a desire for change that we have not experienced in a long time. the voters will have their say in the election. the time is now and remember this is the time of the instant gratification generation. they won't wait long.

[manyfeathers]

Instant Gratification Generation - The IGG

Very scary stuff. All I can say to my fellow boomers is, remember Carousel in Logan's Run?

[Phyxius]

Instant Gratification Generation - The IGG

Very scary stuff. All I can say to my fellow boomers is, remember Carousel in Logan's Run?


RENEW! RENEW! :P

[ClayBarham]

No, the schools have done their job well to make sure people no longer see what happened in our Nation's earliest days. The Puritans came here and established a theocracy and almost starved under it. It was when Bradford loosened the chains that bound them to the church that they, still being Christians, were able to own land and what they produced on it. It was their lifestyle and their pursuits of legitimate self-interest that gave America its start, not something they read in a book from Europe. It was the growth of their families and close communities that established liberty, not the King or any politician. It was that habit of life that was codified 150 years later with the Declaration of Independence, which simply stated what Americans wanted to state, not John Locke or Edmund Burke may have said. The philosophy of freedom grew here, not transplanted here. This may make you angry that ordinary people would have the capacity to establish habits of life based upon individual freedom, and not be given it by some elite people from the Democrat club. Hillary didn't provide it.

[ECW]

Your premise is still wrong, pal. What is being taught today in the schools is simple: the test.

With all the rightwing clamoring about testing students to see if they know what they are supposed to know, teachers and administrators realize that if the school is to survive they have to teach to the test. The test is multiple choice. Easy for a trained chimp to grade. Leaves no gray area. It also doesn't allow variations based on differing ideas, personal interest, or anything else. What you have is a series of disconnected facts that students have to memorize which do not spell out the whole picture of a particular subject.

Thus, you wind up with kids who can tell you about the Holocaust but not who was in charge of Germany when it happened or even WHEN it happened, kids who can do algebra in the 6th grade but can't make change at a bake sale because the register didn't tell them what to give back, and kids who can't argue a coherent position on any issue because they lack knowledge of the theory to connect their assortment of facts.

Don't talk to me about "individual freedom" or our nation's history because today's students cannot grasp the concept. It wasn't on the test.

[ClayBarham]

Why would they put it on the test when it wasn't even taught, nor will it ever be taught in my lifetime in a public school. The only ones who will learn about it is through home schooling or some private schools. The NEA is not a booster of American values of individual liberty, and none of their teachers would survive if they ever taught it. That does not mean it didn't happen. The notion that our prosperity came from individual liberty and private property is, today, a radical right wing ideology not to be repeated in polite company, of which you are obviously a member. It is a regret that your mind is closed to the beauty of liberty and the proof it works by the history of America.

[ECW]

Why would they put it on the test when it wasn't even taught, nor will it ever be taught in my lifetime in a public school. The only ones who will learn about it is through home schooling or some private schools. The NEA is not a booster of American values of individual liberty, and none of their teachers would survive if they ever taught it. That does not mean it didn't happen. The notion that our prosperity came from individual liberty and private property is, today, a radical right wing ideology not to be repeated in polite company, of which you are obviously a member. It is a regret that your mind is closed to the beauty of liberty and the proof it works by the history of America.


Spoken like a neocon with no clue about who he is talking to.

I was taught about liberty in MY public school. They didn't teach to the test like they do now. The teachers I had were trusted to address subject matter in a complete and encompasssing way and, as a result, students learned all about a subject, not just pertinent points. The conservative desire to quantify something like that and make a test for it eliminated the freedom a teacher had to pursue a subject in depth.

Your claim about the NEA is baseless and without a link, your words are just another opinion and not worth the paper they are printed on.

Your assinine statement that my eyes are closed to the beauty of liberty is about the stupidest thing to come out of your head yet. Don't take this the wrong way, Clay, because I don't want this to come across as a personal attack but you really ought to stop spouting wingnuts phrases and neocon talking points when you address my posts because I will take those phrases and figuratively jam them back down your narrow, little throat.

The problem we have with Liberty today in this country is that there is a president who doesn't believe in it for his own folks and has done everything he could to undermine it with a misnamed piece of fascist trash called the Patriot Act which neither makes patriots or promotes patriotism. The march in lockstep and single mindedness of the neocons who control the GOP have seen to that. They hate people who exercise their liberties and hate anyone who speaks out and doesn't speak their words.

Our prosperity came not only from individuals willing to take some risk but also from a government that protected and encouraged those same people to do what the government could not. So take your rightwing blubbering points and buzz off. The teachers of America will thank you.

[PatrickHenry]

New England today, however, is the home of American Socialism. New Englanders support Old World’s ideals where the few rule the many. New Englanders once promoted individual liberty across America. There are six new England states. Are you sure all of them are socialist?

Now, they infect Americans with Old World beliefs in the primacy of community interests above individual interests. Certainly the conquest of private property by a partnership between local government and wealthy private developers has infected the Supreme Court: (Kelo v New London)
It's also the home of Yale University (New Haven) and the hidden hand of elitist control over our nation. Every president for the last 19 years was a Yalie. Last election, we had the spectacle of TWO Yalies vying for the Oval Office...my, my.
But if I am not mistaken, New Hampshire is also the location of the Free State Project, an attempt to make the state a libertarian utopia, so maybe you need to rethink your thesis.

Today’s Democratic Party promises us the modern New England idealism of dictatorship and America on its knees. Today’s Republican Party no longer takes a stand for America’s prosperity through freedom, leaving the Democrats a clear road to victory in 2008.
Hmm...America on its knees. I kinda like the sound of that. Maybe not quite the way you meant it. God says, according to 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, on whom my name is named, make themselves low and come to me in prayer, searching for me and turning from their evil ways; then I will give ear from heaven, overlooking their sin, and will give life again to their land. I wonder what it will take to bring America to her knees?

[ClayBarham]

ECW:
If I understand what you are saying, I should never mention anything like individual liberty, freedom, etc., because it is no longer taught in the schools, right? Am I interpreting your statement correctly? So, should I call the local high school and ask the principle what I can and cannot say that is acceptable to the NEA/AFT folks? I don't know, but I think I'll keep on pushing the ideals of liberty until you liberals silence me once and for all.

[ECW]

No one is trying to silence you, doofus. And you are sooooo completely wrong about what I said. That's the problem I seem to be having here: you don't read what I wrote but, instead, what you think I wrote. Misinterpretation seems to be par for the course here.

Your assertion about liberty not being taught in the schools is wrong. It is being taught but because of how the conservatives have cut the nuts off the way that schools are run, at least here in Texas, kids only learn bits and pieces about it instead of the whole shebang the way they did when I was going to school. THAT'S what I was saying.

Like I told you the first time, bring something concrete to the argument as far as the stand of teacher's unions goes. Your sorry opinion isn't valid as fact. (Bear in mind, I don't work in a school, belong to the union, or have anything else to do with the school system except that glorious time once a year when I pay my school taxes. Just thought I would eliminate THAT as a lame-o talking point before you used it against me instead of finding some relevant facts.)

Tell me again how you are "pushing" your concept of Liberty to school age youngsters in our great land and how your version works better than what is currently used? Just curious...

[ECW]

I wonder what it will take to bring America to her knees?


Under-educated dumbasses getting elected to office and then dumping their half baked ideas out there as Gospel. We're getting closer...

[NortheastCynic]

Under-educated dumbasses getting elected to office and then dumping their half baked ideas out there as Gospel. and gay marriage...:rolleyes:

-NC

[ECW]

Gay marriage will bring America to its knees?

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Funny.

[preservanation]

A Republican states the chances are good that a Dem will win in 08 and the libs go bonkers!
If you don't think your party is turning socialist, you are denying reality.
This is really unhinged.

[ECW]

If you don't think your party is turning socialist, you are denying reality.



If you don't think your party has become neo-fascist, you are also denying reality.

(Trading stereotypes is actually quite fun. Got anymore?)

[NortheastCynic]

Gay marriage will bring America to its knees?

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Funny. Good. It was a joke. Damn the internet, it ruins what could be great sarcastic humor.

-NC

[ClayBarham]

ECW, am I to surmise that, since people won't know what individual freedom means, we should assume an allegiance to your mentor, the one you so valiantly picture on your post?

[Buck Laser]

If you don't think your party is turning socialist, you are denying reality.



If you don't think your party has become neo-fascist, you are also denying reality.

(Trading stereotypes is actually quite fun. Got anymore?)

Actually, ECW, I don't think neo-fascist fits. I think Clay is more a classical fascist with a bad education.

[preservanation]

If you don't think your party is turning socialist, you are denying reality.



If you don't think your party has become neo-fascist, you are also denying reality.

(Trading stereotypes is actually quite fun. Got anymore?)

Actually, ECW, I don't think neo-fascist fits. I think Clay is more a classical fascist with a bad education.

Sorocialist!

[ECW]

If you don't think your party is turning socialist, you are denying reality.



If you don't think your party has become neo-fascist, you are also denying reality.

(Trading stereotypes is actually quite fun. Got anymore?)

Actually, ECW, I don't think neo-fascist fits. I think Clay is more a classical fascist with a bad education.


You know, Buck my dear buddy, I was really trying not to be too rude by just up and calling him a fascist so I put the CWN spin on it with the "neo" thing. You are, however, correct in your evaluation about Clay.

I have never seen anyone on any board that I post on (all one dozen of them) that so regularly mischaracterizes, misinterprets, and mis-states simple known facts and figures and then lumps it all together in a convoluted mismatch that somehow comes out in his brain as the truth. In the end, the wild revisionist history that Clay partakes in does remind me of previous facsist regimes and how they always put the theory out there first and then cherry picked their facts to fit the theory.

If i didn't know better I would think that he writes the scripts for some of the currently popular wrestling programs because I have never seen anyone who can twist and turn things so completely and get lesser educated folks to believe it is real.

Lastly, I am still waiting for an answer to the question I posed a few posts ago:

Tell me again how you are "pushing" your concept of Liberty to school age youngsters in our great land and how your version works better than what is currently used? Just curious...

[ECW]

Sorocialist!


That's MISTER Sorocialist to you, sonny boy.

[Marley]

I didn't think these personal/partisan pissing matches occurred in this forum.

MY understanding of American history is that NE was settled by religious refugees escaping the government power of the Anglican church.

While Virginia was settled by loyalists -- Roanoke colony, Jamestown.

So now can we get back to the point of the initial post???

The problem with Marxism/socialism/liberalism, (all the same thing, only different degrees), is that there must be a supreme entity -- the government -- to exert control over everyone, to deem "abilities," and "needs."

Another problem with the same is that, as Clay implies, people are stuck in their station in life, becuase some one else controls their life, and for that person to maintain their own power, they like everything to stay just as it is.

Marx didn't exist yet when Jefferson and Madison were putting their own spin on Locke and Rousseau.

FDR, on the other hand, did a masterful job availing himself and his party of the Machivellian tendancies of Marxist doctrine in the early 20th century in America.

And as a Republican, there couldn't be a better cycle to lose than 2006!

Democrats are performing PERFECTLY for Republicans currently, overplaying their hand at every turn.

Osama Bin Ladin is more popular than Harry Reid right now!

And the problem is GW Bush is being forced to retire while Reid faces reelection!

[ECW]

The problem with Marxism/socialism/liberalism, (all the same thing, only different degrees), is that there must be a supreme entity -- the government -- to exert control over everyone, to deem "abilities," and "needs."

The problem with the republican/conservative/fascist/totalitarian viewpoint is that a monied elite controls the economy, makes the government a puppet that dances to their whims and wishes, and determines the morality and religious beliefs of everyone else regardless of their personal wishes or beliefs. It becomes an institutionalized Social Darwinism where the poor are exploited to the maximum, the middle class is very small and not upwardly mobile and it is stuck doing vital but labor intensive chores for society that the upper class won't dirty their hands with while the rich live off the labor of everyone else manipulating the government and it's laws to their benefit alone.

Another problem with the same is that, as Clay implies, people are stuck in their station in life, becuase some one else controls their life, and for that person to maintain their own power, they like everything to stay just as it is.

According to the Gospel of Social Darwinism that I hear rightwingers preach all the time NO ONE is stuck in their station in life and if they are, they are lazy, waiting for handouts, and a drag on society as a whole that we would all be better off without. In this interconnected world, everyone is subject to the control of someone else to various degrees. It all comes down to whether they are intent on exploiting you with that control and you agree to that exploitation that determines your quality of life. Are you willing to make the sacrifices needed to free yourself of those "controls"? Most SD whiners aren't. They don't want to pay for new roads with a gas tax and object to toll roads so no new roads get built. They had no problem getting their free public education on other people's tax dollars but now don't want to pay their property taxes because they have no kids in school. The government that they hate so much and refuse to pay taxes to keeps them relatively free and safe to spout their Social Darwinist crap for everyone else to hear. Been there. Heard that. Dumped same into the trash.

FDR, on the other hand, did a masterful job availing himself and his party of the Machivellian tendancies of Marxist doctrine in the early 20th century in America.

Let's see... a Yankee patrician who could have lived his life in relative luxury decides to dedicate himself to public service bettering the society that helped his family acquire their wealth and also decides to give a hand up to the poorest of the poor hard-working Americans that had been pretty much ignored by conservative presidents for decades... yeah, that sounds like a guy dedicated to the principles of Marx and Machiavelli alright. The same guy who used his Justice Department and FBI to bust up the American Communist Party and fill it with ringers is now being accused of having Marxist designs himself. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me. (/sarcasm)


And as a Republican, there couldn't be a better cycle to lose than 2006!

Hang around. There's a few more where that came from.

Democrats are performing PERFECTLY for Republicans currently, overplaying their hand at every turn.

Yep. Keep thinking that.

Osama Bin Ladin is more popular than Harry Reid right now!

Oooopssiee! We let some Faux Noise diatribe slip in there. I'm certain that you'll be able to link me to a legitimate poll that backs you up on that, won't you? May I suggest www.ipulledthatoutofmyass.com for those survey results you alluded to?

And the problem is GW Bush is being forced to retire while Reid faces reelection!

Being one of the magical 29% who still supports the Worst. President. Ever. may be admirable in your circle of chums but it shows a certain cluelessness to the deteriorating situation in the world and in the country itself that stems right from the CiC himself.

Now that we have uncovered the election stealing that got him into the White House and kept him there for eight years, it would be impossible for him to win a third term. Were it not for the 22nd Amendment that Republicans insisted on passing after FDR handed them their asses four elections in a row, he could have given it a shot. Funny how that circle gets closed, ain't it?

I didn't think these personal/partisan pissing matches occurred in this forum.

Usually they don't. Only after someone spews a trail of trash that he cannot or will not defend does it get messy. This forum can get pretty partisan when I decide to post here. Otherwise, it's pretty tame as forums go.

[NortheastCynic]

The problem with the republican/conservative/fascist/totalitarian viewpoint is that a monied elite controls the economy, makes the government a puppet that dances to their whims and wishes, and determines the morality and religious beliefs of everyone else regardless of their personal wishes or beliefs.Hey, ECW, it's been a while...
Don't confuse neoconservatism with conservatism. True conservatives want a separation of government and the economy, meaning the government would not overregulate business and business would not exert influence on government. Business only has the opportunity to influence government if the two have a relationship [via regulation, in this case].
It becomes an institutionalized Social Darwinism where the poor are exploited to the maximum, the middle class is very small and not upwardly mobile and it is stuck doing vital but labor intensive chores for society that the upper class won't dirty their hands with while the rich live off the labor of everyone else manipulating the government and it's laws to their benefit alone.I never liked the word "exploited" because it is one of the most underdefined words in the political lexicon. Is a mutual agreement on a labor contract "exploitation"?


Let's see... a Yankee patrician who could have lived his life in relative luxury decides to dedicate himself to public service bettering the society that helped his family acquire their wealth and also decides to give a hand up to the poorest of the poor hard-working Americans that had been pretty much ignored by conservative presidents for decades... yeah, that sounds like a guy dedicated to the principles of Marx and Machiavelli alright. The same guy who used his Justice Department and FBI to bust up the American Communist Party and fill it with ringers is now being accused of having Marxist designs himself. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me. (/sarcasm)That's one way of looking at it...Another way is this...A Yankee patrician who could have lived his life in relative luxury dedicates himself to public service. He imprisons thousands of American citizens in enormous camps, suspending habeus corpus in the process. He proceeds to coerce the Supreme Court in order to push social programs that would have been found unConstitutional through. He sets a precedent by becoming the first President to run for three terms.

I don't exagerate when I call FDR America's first dictator and our most overrated President. Machiavelli would be proud.

With all that said, again, predicting 08 for the Dems this early doesn't make all that much sense to me.

-NC

[ECW]

Yeah, it's been a while. I've been elsewhere blowing off steam.

I like trading stereotypes with the kids... it messes with their mind set. Trust me, I remember the old days when conservatives and Liberals had discussions over the role of government and business along the lines of your response. I certainly do know the difference between the intolerant, we-know-everything-and-you-know-nothing attitude of the neocons and your garden variety conservative that had his party hijacked from underneath him.

Is a mutual agreement on a labor contract "exploitation"?

It is when fair wages are not paid for fair work and when that contract is agreed to out of desperation, not desire. The race to the bottom thing is at work here.

On FDR: dictators do not, as a rule, put themselves up for re-election without controlling who the opposition can run against them. I know that's not what you meant. Yes, he let the pervasive racism of the times get the best of him but he also let Germans and Italians get rounded up as well. It went counter to what we wished for as a nation but he was proven wrong by the courts and eventually did the correct thing. We could go on and on about FDR's battles with the courts over his programs but I do have to say that pulling America's elderly out of the poor house with the Social Security program (over conservative objections) was the crowning jewel. He wasn't a saint but he is far from the demon/Marxist/Machiavellian character that has been painted here.

Now George bush, on the other hand.....

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Marley]

"the poor are exploited to the maximum,"

You can't cheat an honest person!

ECW, try decaf.

[Marley]

And the bottom line is GWB is twice as popular as your hero Reid.

19%

LMAO

[Marley]

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/harry_reid_s_favorables_fall_to_19

Gotta have "proof!"

Did Newt ever sink as deep in the polls as Reid is right now?
Did Delay ever sink as deep in the polls as Reid is right now?

[ECW]

"the poor are exploited to the maximum,"

You can't cheat an honest person!

ECW, try decaf.


But you can oppress them by not providing honest wages for honest work. Lots of honest people have families to feed and limited opportunity to go where the best jobs are.

Marley, grow up.

[ECW]

And the bottom line is GWB is twice as popular as your hero Reid.

19%

LMAO


Sorry, bubbie, but my hero is Bobby Kennedy. Reid isn't in my top 5,000. Is Bush your hero?

[Marley]

"But you can oppress them by not providing honest wages for honest work."

LOL "honest" wage? Some wages lie?

"Lots of honest people have families to feed and limited opportunity to go where the best jobs are."

False. Let's look at New Orleans.

These mythical honest opportunityless folks ultimately left, didn't they? Their ability to do so was there all along! Wasn't it? Even if I stipulate they were "oppressed" the second part of your assertion, "limited opportunity to go" simply does not hold up when compared to actual, recent facts.

[NortheastCynic]

ECW,
Who determines [or should determine] what a "fair" wage is?

If it isn't the two parties entering an employment contract, than who? And why?

-NC

[ECW]

Fair is where everyone benefits from the work performed; the job owner makes money, the job performer can live in a decent fashion on the wages provided, and the job benefits that to whom it was intended to benefit without undue hardship to any of the parties involved.

All too often, the job owner rakes in the lion's share just because he can and the worker, despite working a 40 hour week, is left in poverty. Exploitation is always ugly and the exploiter always denies it claiming some sort of inherent "right" to act in an immoral or exploitive manner. Living in a civilized society infers certain rights and responsibilities that separates us from living in the jungle. All too often, exploiters substitutes a "right" for a "responsibility" and that is the case here.

[Marley]

You didn't answer the specific question put to you: who?

[ECW]

"But you can oppress them by not providing honest wages for honest work."

LOL "honest" wage? Some wages lie?

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Pretty funny. Don't quit your day job.

Being obtuse is not a virtue.

"Lots of honest people have families to feed and limited opportunity to go where the best jobs are."

False. Let's look at New Orleans.

These mythical honest opportunityless folks ultimately left, didn't they? Their ability to do so was there all along! Wasn't it? Even if I stipulate they were "oppressed" the second part of your assertion, "limited opportunity to go" simply does not hold up when compared to actual, recent facts.


Yeah. Let's look at New Orleans.

The days before the hurricane thousands of people who had vehicles fled. Those who did not have vehicles could not. Leaving out those who could leave and did not, you have a prominently minority population that had been dependent on public transportation who were abandoned. When they did leave, they left with nothing. Everything they had was destroyed but I guess that counts as "ultimately leaving" in your book. Please. You can cherry pick your "facts" all you want but the people on the ground are the proof that you can only deny if doesn't suit your social darwinist theory of how America should be. It is not a view I share or condone.

[Marley]

Let's forget me for the moment. The discussion by chance has an opportunity to focus and resolve something here.

You have left the matter unresolved.

The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?

[ECW]

You didn't answer the specific question put to you: who?


In case you couldn't figure it out from the answer, all parties decide that based on the norms and laws of our country and our society. As much as you would like to deny it, we do not live in a vacuum and everyone has societal rights inherent to being a member of that society and one of those rights is being protected from those who would prey upon others for their own gain.

[ECW]

Let's forget me for the moment. The discussion by chance has an opportunity to focus and resolve something here.

You have left the matter unresolved.

The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?


Posting the question numerous times will not facilitate an answer. I do not choose to spend my time answering questions at your demand. If you get an answer, great. If not, tough shit. Live with it.

[Marley]

"In case you couldn't figure it out from the answer, all parties decide that based on the norms and laws of our country and our society."

I can't figure out what doesn't make sense, sorry.

"Everyone" is nonsense.

Each person has a different opinion of "fair" or this notion of "honest wage" (LOL)

It makes sense that the two parties of the transaction are satified the deal is "fair" since they are FREE, and entering into the transaction of their own free will.

[Marley]

"If not, tough sh1t."

That doesn't have a "fair" or "honest" ring to it my friend!

And no matter what, it is not the langauge of who I would ever look to as arbitor of what is fair or honest.

[ECW]

"If not, tough sh1t."

That doesn't have a "fair" or "honest" ring to it my friend!

And no matter what, it is not the langauge of who I would ever look to as arbitor of what is fair or honest.


Don't think that you can start demanding answers from people and not get called on it. THAT'S where the tough shit part comes in and nowhere else. Nice try in trying to twist what I said but I'll call you on your attempts at intellectual dishonesty everytime.

And whether you look to me to be any kind of arbiter makes no difference since that's not what is important here. Demanding answers of people is obnoxious and that is a road you will regret traveling.

One last thing: hit the quote button when you want to use someone's words in your reply. You'll be surprised at how easy it works.

[Marley]

"One last thing: hit the quote button when you want to use someone's words in your reply. You'll be surprised at how easy it works."

Don't think that you can start demanding me to "hit...buttons" and not get called on it. ROTFLMAO

Hypocrit.


The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?

[preservanation]

"One last thing: hit the quote button when you want to use someone's words in your reply. You'll be surprised at how easy it works."

Don't think that you can start demanding me to "hit...buttons" and not get called on it. ROTFLMAO

Hypocrit.


The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?

anticipated response: "Israel!...Christians!...Bush!"

Of course the socialist elites will put themselves as the arbiter of right , wrong, fair and unfair.
That is at the heart of the lib agenda, and is becoming increasingly apparent within the Democrat Party.

[ECW]

"One last thing: hit the quote button when you want to use someone's words in your reply. You'll be surprised at how easy it works."

Don't think that you can start demanding me to "hit...buttons" and not get called on it. ROTFLMAO

Hypocrit.


The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?


I can see that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points. I answered that question already and asking it again and again isn't going to change the answer. When you are ready to discuss the issue on a more mature level, I'll post more. Until then, you're just wasting my time.

[ECW]

Of course the socialist elites will put themselves as the arbiter of right , wrong, fair and unfair.
That is at the heart of the lib agenda, and is becoming increasingly apparent within the Democrat Party.


Typical neocon blather from the party that excluded half of America from discussion of our nation's problems for six years. I would tell you to look to your own before you start slinging charges about elitism and who might be the sole arbiter of moralistic questions but then you couldn't handle the fact that your party has become the shelter of crooks, liars, and sexual perverts so the discussion would go nowhere fast. When you are unable to even get the name of the left-leaning party correct, it is all too apparent that you will be wrong on damn near everything else as well. Get real, boyo.

[Marley]

"I can see that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points."

LOL Like I care what some one like you thinks! Who cares what you "can see" about the other particiapnts of this forum? Really.

"I answered that question already"

No, you did not. Show me.

"When you are ready to discuss the issue on a more mature level"

LMAO Priceless!


The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?

[ClayBarham]

The responses from the two pro-Osama fellows shows how far America has fallen from its roots and the idea that individual freedom leads to prosperity and peace. Perhaps the best they can expect, since Osama is not on the 2008 ballot, is Barack Hussein Obama in his place.

[ECW]

The responses from the two pro-Osama fellows shows how far America has fallen from its roots and the idea that individual freedom leads to prosperity and peace. Perhaps the best they can expect, since Osama is not on the 2008 ballot, is Barack Hussein Obama in his place.


Your allegation that I am pro-Osama is the biggest pile of bullshit you have posted yet. I would ask you for proof but since the proof is in your fucked up head and your brain is obviously missing-in-action there is no proof. Just more whining from the neocon liars brigade that hasn't got a clue as to how much their holy than thou pack of lies has damaged the United States. If I am pro-Osama then you are a Nazi.

[ECW]

"I can see that reading comprehension is not one of your strong points."

LOL Like I care what some one like you thinks! Who cares what you "can see" about the other particiapnts of this forum? Really.

"I answered that question already"

No, you did not. Show me.

"When you are ready to discuss the issue on a more mature level"

LMAO Priceless!


The question was put to you "who?"

Who decides what's fair?

You?

Who?


Post #44 answered your question but you obviously didn't understand it.

[preservanation]

Libs may call themselves Democrats but they are the antithesis of democratic.
ECW:but then you couldn't handle the fact that your party has become the shelter of crooks, liars, and sexual pervertsSee above.

[ClayBarham]

Hey, you two Osama lovers....want proof? Look at your postings. You have a picture of your idol with the words I'm still free. I would say you admire him enough to put his picture on your post is enough, particularly when coupled with your words and thoughts. Does this mean the closest you can come to an ideal candidate in 2008 is Barack Hussein Osama?

[ECW]

Hey, you two Osama lovers....want proof? Look at your postings. You have a picture of your idol with the words I'm still free. I would say you admire him enough to put his picture on your post is enough, particularly when coupled with your words and thoughts. Does this mean the closest you can come to an ideal candidate in 2008 is Barack Hussein Osama?


He's still free because your dumbass president couldn't catch him. The WTC remains unavenged and the guilty still walk free while your boy George went after the man who threatened his father. It must be YOU who loves Osama because it obviously doesn't bother YOU that he is a free man. It bothers me enough to remind YOU of unfinished business. While YOU prance around calling people Osama lovers it is painfully obvious who has sheltered his family, who let them out the country after 9/11, and who's family did business with them and who now is really protecting Osama: George W Bush and his chimp minions in the GOP.

[ECW]

What's this??
How about egocertric, bombastic, antagonstic unrealistic, autocratic, totalistic, and despotic?
I prefer jackasstic.

All that and you still can't get the name of the party correct. Sad.

WASHINGTON - Indicted U.S. Rep. William Jefferson, charged with 16 violations of federal law, including racketeering and soliciting bribes, is also embroiled in a civil suit by a shareholder in a Kentucky technology firm who alleges the company was put out of business as a result of Jefferson's "illegal acts."

Jefferson is a crook. That much is clear. The difference is the Democrats did not hide his crimes or protect him from prosecution or fire USAs to keep him from being brought to justice.

That's nothing.
Look at the no Less Than SEVENTY TWO Violations of the UNITED STATES CODE by the perp and chief, Clinton.
http://w3f.com/patriots/addendum.html

Lots of allegations but not one conviction. I could compile a similar list for the "crimes" of Bush and Cheney and it would mean exactly the same thing. Nothing.

Wait, what's this?California Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D) chairs the Senate Rules Committee, but she’s also a Cardinal. She is currently chairwoman of the Interior, Environment and Related Agencies subcommittee, but until last year was for six years the top Democrat on the Military Construction, Veterans Affairs, and Related Agencies (or “Milcon”) sub-committee, where she may have directed more than $1 billion to companies controlled by her husband. During this period the two companies, URS of San Francisco and the Perini Corporation of Framingham, Mass., were controlled by Feinstein’s husband, Richard C. Blum, and were awarded a combined total of over $1.5 billion in government business thanks in large measure to her subcommittee.
That’s a lot of money even here in Washington.
Interestingly, she left the subcommittee in late 2005 at about the same time her husband sold his stake in both companies. Their combined net worth increased that year with the sale of the two companies by some 25 percent, to more than $40 million.
http://thehill.com/david-keene/feinsteins-cardinal-shenanigans-2007-04-30.html

Is Feistein a Democratic? I can't remember


Since you can't get the name of the party correct or tell the difference between nouns and adjectives, I'm not surprised in the least that you can't remember.

Again more allegations. With the partisan USAs that are uinder the Justice Department's control, if these were serious allegations, they would have already indicted her. That's how the game is played nowadays. Republican crimes fly under the radar but Democratic ones pop up every time.

But hey, is this all you got? One Democrat under indictment and allegations against two more? You really don't want to come to a gun fight with a butter knife, do ya? My orginal statement stands: your party has become the shelter of crooks, liars, and sexual perverts.

[gemosological]

Look back almost 400 years ago, when the New England settlements produced a new beginning in people’s relationships. They introduced individual freedom to America and the world. It spread and grew across the North American Continent, creating the greatest free nation and economic super-power ever known in this world. New England today, however, is the home of American Socialism. New Englanders support Old World’s ideals where the few rule the many. New Englanders once promoted individual liberty across America. Now, they infect Americans with Old World beliefs in the primacy of community interests above individual interests. Today’s Democratic Party promises us the modern New England idealism of dictatorship and America on its knees. Today’s Republican Party no longer takes a stand for America’s prosperity through freedom, leaving the Democrats a clear road to victory in 2008.


Damn! I join this forum 5 minutes ago, read the first post and find out it was the folks that landed at Plymouth Rock that first introduced freedom to America. Wow! If there's many more posters like you, Claybar, I'm gonna start thinking I've landed in Special Ed forum land!!!

I can't wait to see what else you've got to say! I like it when people make me laugh!

RRD

[gemosological]

Somethings desperately wrong with our school system for people to come out of it believing strange fiction like this OP.


That's assuming there was a school system available where Claybar grew up!

RRD
:)

[gemosological]

Quoting PatrickHenry:

"I wonder what it will take to bring America to her knees?"

RRD replies:

"a burning bush?"

RRD

[ClayBarham]

Hey Redsrdead:
Welcome to the blog. You might even find an opinion that goes against your beliefs, and the best way to oppose an idea is, as most liberals adopt, is to call someone a bad name. That is the intellectual approach. Lots of common sense involved in it. I'm sure the other libs who do likewise will want to emulate your unlimited intellect. As for me, I was fortunate to be able to learn American History, not only in school, but on my own, like, I can read, and even worse, I can contemplate, speculate, formulate and run ideas up the flag pole to see who salutes. As for America, when the Europeans came over 400 years ago, they stood on the shores with their mouths open waiting for some European philosopher to tell them each move to make. God forbid they would think and act on their own and establish a tradition and culture apart from what their leaders give them. God forbid they would actually create, build, develop and grow economically with Karl Marx giving them a plan. And, God forbid that what they did for 400 years that was "good" would actually create a Nation with 5% of the world's population controlling 25% of its wealth....how could that be?

[ECW]

You might even find an opinion that goes against your beliefs, and the best way to oppose an idea is, as most liberals adopt, is to call someone a bad name. That is the intellectual approach. Lots of common sense involved in it. I'm sure the other libs who do likewise will want to emulate your unlimited intellect.

Yeah, I got your namecalling right here...


Hey, you two Osama lovers....want proof? Look at your postings. You have a picture of your idol with the words I'm still free. I would say you admire him enough to put his picture on your post is enough, particularly when coupled with your words and thoughts. Does this mean the closest you can come to an ideal candidate in 2008 is Barack Hussein Osama?


Hypocrite.

[ClayBarham]

I still have difficulty understanding what it is about Osama that you so admire as to require you prominently display his picture. Are you trying to say you like him better, say, than Marx, Stalin, Hitler or Saddam?

[gemosological]

Quoting Claybar:

"And, God forbid that what they did for 400 years that was "good" would actually create a Nation with 5% of the world's population controlling 25% of its wealth....how could that be?"

Well, for starters you don't have to be "good" to control 25% of the worlds wealth. All that would be necessary is to be a liar. And a user. And a manipulator. And a thief! How much did our white forefathers pay for Manhattan Island? And how many treaties did we break with the Native Americans, who were living a lot freer and were a lot more "democratic" before "we" showed up? And who fed who during that first harsh winter? Looks to me like we started using those patterns of behavior that made "US" rich from the get-go. Our ancestors sure didn't waste any time implementing that pattern of behavior now, did they? And the trend, in case you haven't been following the news lately, continues to this very day.

Oh, btw, where did I call you any names? I looked through my posts and couldn't find any instance of me doing that. I may have missed it though. Would you mind C&Ping where I might have called you a name?

RRD

[gemosological]

Quoting Claybar:

"As for me, I was fortunate to be able to learn American History, not only in school, but on my own, like, I can read, and even worse, I can contemplate, speculate, formulate and run ideas up the flag pole to see who salutes."

If I may offer a bit of unsolicited advice I'd say you might get more salutes if you ran that flag up the flagpole right side up!

RRD

[gemosological]

Oh, btw, I read the entire thread last night and was very glad to see the overall level of intelligence here.
You had me worried for a bit there, Claybar!

RRD

[gemosological]

I still have difficulty understanding what it is about Osama that you so admire as to require you prominently display his picture. Are you trying to say you like him better, say, than Marx, Stalin, Hitler or Saddam?


Sardonicism escapes you, doesn't it? And bitter irony goes 'right' over your head too, huh?

RRD

[ECW]

I still have difficulty understanding what it is about Osama that you so admire as to require you prominently display his picture. Are you trying to say you like him better, say, than Marx, Stalin, Hitler or Saddam?


Guess the namecalling issue is dead now that you have been shown that you are one as well. OK...

I already answered your question before and it is quite clear, just like your running buddy preservanation, you aren't getting it. Here's the quote again.

He's still free because your dumbass president couldn't catch him. The WTC remains unavenged and the guilty still walk free while your boy George went after the man who threatened his father. It must be YOU who loves Osama because it obviously doesn't bother YOU that he is a free man. It bothers me enough to remind YOU of unfinished business. While YOU prance around calling people Osama lovers it is painfully obvious who has sheltered his family, who let them out the country after 9/11, and who's family did business with them and who now is really protecting Osama: George W Bush and his chimp minions in the GOP.

I bolded the part that you should pay the closest attention to. When is Osama going to be brought to justice? Bush started the War in Afghanistan to that end and even that war has gone to hell in a handbasket because the neocons running the show can talk a real bad game but they couldn't plot a successful war to fight their way out of a wet paper bag. That war is lost and the one in Iraq is on it's way as well. The neocons never fought in a war but they have no hesitation to send other people's sons and daughters over to fight for something they didn't have the guts to engage in themselves. Their temerity is astonishing as is your ignorance as to why I post Osama's picture with every post I make.

I like how you try and use Marx, Stalin, Hitler or Saddam to try and smear me and what I stand for, ya little puke, but you'll get called on it every time just like I called you out on trying to make me out to be a terrorist sympathizer. You've turned out to be another one of those mindless bushbot neocons with an Ann Coulter sense of humor, a George Bush "truthiness" and a Dick Cheney sense of ethics.

[gemosological]

Looks like Claybar quit posting. He's probably hiking his way out of the woods to the nearest library to find out the meaning of the word "sardonicism", lol!

But it's more likely that he quit posting because he can't come up with any rational responses to what either you or I- and some of the other posters here- have been telling him. But that seems to be the way of the Bushbot neoconservative crowd- if they can't refute an argument with logic and fact they'll resort to put-downs, name-calling and character assassination. If that doesn't work they'll resort to putting you on ignore, giving you negative reps or simply banning you. Such "men" they are! They can fight, they can kill, but when it comes to facing simple truths- about themselves or other issues- they run like hell! They call themselves "men". I call them cowards!

Gem

[preservanation]

Gem, I love your cartoon!

[gemosological]

Gem, I love your cartoon!


What are you smokin' there, buddy? I didn't post any cartoon!

RRD here, Gem elsewhere! Oh well, now that secret's out! My bad!

Readsrdead!!!

[preservanation]

Sorry kimbo,

All my correspondence is now being handled through CWN's service...beep.

[lily]

Looks like Claybar quit posting. He's probably hiking his way out of the woods to the nearest library to find out the meaning of the word "sardonicism", lol!

Well.......I don't know about Clay.......but I had to go look it up.

But it's more likely that he quit posting because he can't come up with any rational responses to what either you or I- and some of the other posters here- have been telling him. But that seems to be the way of the Bushbot neoconservative crowd- if they can't refute an argument with logic and fact they'll resort to put-downs, name-calling and character assassination. If that doesn't work they'll resort to putting you on ignore, giving you negative reps or simply banning you. Such "men" they are! They can fight, they can kill, but when it comes to facing simple truths- about themselves or other issues- they run like hell! They call themselves "men". I call them cowards!

Gem

This is sardonicism, right?

[preservanation]

Gem, I love your cartoon!


What are you smokin' there, buddy? I didn't post any cartoon!

RRD here, Gem elsewhere! Oh well, now that secret's out! My bad!

Readsrdead!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqrWm1M3Sc

[gemosological]

Looks like Claybar quit posting. He's probably hiking his way out of the woods to the nearest library to find out the meaning of the word "sardonicism", lol!

Well.......I don't know about Clay.......but I had to go look it up.

But it's more likely that he quit posting because he can't come up with any rational responses to what either you or I- and some of the other posters here- have been telling him. But that seems to be the way of the Bushbot neoconservative crowd- if they can't refute an argument with logic and fact they'll resort to put-downs, name-calling and character assassination. If that doesn't work they'll resort to putting you on ignore, giving you negative reps or simply banning you. Such "men" they are! They can fight, they can kill, but when it comes to facing simple truths- about themselves or other issues- they run like hell! They call themselves "men". I call them cowards!

Gem

This is sardonicism, right?


No, that wasn't sardonicism. That's just the sad reality.

RRD

[preservanation]

No, this is sardonic....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqrWm1M3Sc

[gemosological]

Gem, I love your cartoon!


What are you smokin' there, buddy? I didn't post any cartoon!

RRD here, Gem elsewhere! Oh well, now that secret's out! My bad!

Readsrdead!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNqrWm1M3Sc


I checked out the link, no connection on this end to any of that! I don't subscribe to youtube anyway- never have, probably never will. You sure you don't have me mixed up with somebody else?

RRD

[preservanation]

Maybe, if so, sorry amigo.

[gemosological]

Maybe, if so, sorry amigo.


No worries. Wouldn't be the first time, lol!

I've noticed the Bush lovin' neocon's have been saying lately that since "WE" invaded Iraq and "broke it" how would you feel if I were to suggest that it should be the neocon "Right" in this country that should be the ones- and the only ones- that should "man up" and be the ones to "fix" it?

Your thoughts on the matter?

Oh, btw, I'm a supporter of Obama too- I think we need some fresh ideas and a new direction in this country and not more of the same old same old. I get tired of doing the same thing over and over again myself. Especially when the results never change and generally get even worse.

How about you?

RRD

[ECW]

Sorry kimbo,

All my correspondence is now being handled through CWN's service...beep.


I'm just wondering when you are going answer the question I posed to you about the conduct of the crooks, liars, and sexual perverts in the GOP. Is that all you got? Jefferson with goods and allegations about Clinton and Feinstein? That's it?

Pretty frikken lame if you ask me.

[ClayBarham]

Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....

[Buck Laser]

Clay, you're really a hoot!:P

[gemosological]

Quoting from post #68 by Redsrdead

"Oh, btw, where did I call you any names? I looked through my posts and couldn't find any instance of me doing that. I may have missed it though. Would you mind C&Ping where I might have called you a name?"

Well, Claybar?

RRD

[gemosological]

Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....



You sure do run off at the mouth a lot, Claybar. I suggest that you provide some proof that US Democrats love Osama. If you were to say that to my face you'd find yourself wanting some freedom from peace-lovin' me.
Get the picture?

RRD

[preservanation]

Sorry kimbo,

All my correspondence is now being handled through CWN's service...beep.


I'm just wondering when you are going answer the question I posed to you about the conduct of the crooks, liars, and sexual perverts in the GOP. Is that all you got? Jefferson with goods and allegations about Clinton and Feinstein? That's it?

Pretty frikken lame if you ask me.

As I stated before, I agree that the GOP has acted abominably and so have the Dems. I am part of tha American public who gives them a historically low (14%) approval rating.
What's your point?
That all Republicans are bad and all Dems are good?
Lamer.

[preservanation]

Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....



You sure do run off at the mouth a lot, Claybar. I suggest that you provide some proof that US Democrats love Osama. If you were to say that to my face you'd find yourself wanting some freedom from peace-lovin' me.
Get the picture?

RRD

Not so veiled threats of violence.
Lamest.

[preservanation]

ECW:What I said was that the GOP was the party of crooks, liars, and sexual perverts. They are far worse than Democrats when it comes to stealing funds, lying out of their asses and then getting hauled into court for it and being the most vile sort of sexual pervert/predator/exploiter in politics today.
And I cited examples that disproved those assertions.
Sorry if that bothers you.

[ECW]

Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....


The GOP has made us all slaves?

MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not this boy! They do try hard, though, don't they? Curtailing of our civil rights and freedoms hasn't ever been under this kind of sustained attack from within in the history of our country. Complain all you want, Clay, but it is your boy George and his sidekick Oilman Dick who have perpetrated this crime. They are the ones to blame for this mess.

Like RRD said, you can run off spewing bullshit out of your piehole, but, much like your bud Cheesewars, you have no proof that Democrats are pro-Islamic (except maybe Keith Ellison from Minnesota) and you look stupider and stupider everytime you repeat it.

IT IS YOU that lacks the basic notions of freedom. IT IS YOU that can't handle a difference of opinion without slipping into the Karl Rove Bucket of Slime to smear your adversaries. IT IS YOU that is the un-American disgusting little puke who thinks he knows it all. Clean up your stupid little neocon act, asshole.

[ECW]

ECW:What I said was that the GOP was the party of crooks, liars, and sexual perverts. They are far worse than Democrats when it comes to stealing funds, lying out of their asses and then getting hauled into court for it and being the most vile sort of sexual pervert/predator/exploiter in politics today.
And I cited examples that disproved those assertions.
Sorry if that bothers you.


Hardly bothers me, pal, because the biggest monkey is on your back. Showing me one crooked Democratic Congressman is nothing compared to the "Family Values Party" that is flying under cover of silence right now. Would you like me to cite some examples of the crooked, lying, sexually perverted party that you belong to?

[gemosological]

Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....



You sure do run off at the mouth a lot, Claybar. I suggest that you provide some proof that US Democrats love Osama. If you were to say that to my face you'd find yourself wanting some freedom from peace-lovin' me.
Get the picture?

RRD

Not so veiled threats of violence.
Lamest.


Well, you have to admit that making such absurd statements about somebody else would probably elicit that kind of reaction from most people, don't you agree?

RRD

[ECW]

Talk is the only thing most neocons have going for themselves, RRD. When they find that they can't bully someone into submission, they get all self-righteous. It's truly pathetic. Typical behavior from the party that shelters Liars, Crooks, and Sexual Perverts.

[gemosological]

You got that right, ECW. What's the count up to now? Girls. Boys. Meth. Influence peddling. Illegal gifts. Graft. Madams.....and God knows what else. And they have the audacity to call themselves the party of family values. How sanctimonious and self- righteous can you get?!!!

RRD

[ECW]

They can get pretty sanctimonious from what we have seen in this thread. I suspect they will not be back to defend their party because they cannot defend the indefensible.

ClayBarham Wrote:
Hey, Osama is still free, and the GOP has made us all slaves. Well, the pro-Islamic Democrats, lovers of Osama, will make us free again....free to speak our mind as long as we do not offend those Muslims who lead us or the Prophet or Kali....

Bobby Kennedy had you pegged, Clay:

"What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents."

End of story.

[gemosological]

Quoting excerpt ECW:

"They can get pretty sanctimonious from what we have seen in this thread. I suspect they will not be back to defend their party because they cannot defend the indefensible."

I dunno, I think they'll be back. They can't defend the indefensible but they'll sure as hell try to rationalize and justify it. They have to. Their pride, ego and fortunes are at stake. That's what scary. They're literally not in their right minds and people who are not in their right minds are capable of doing some really atrocious shit when they believe their pride, ego's and fortunes are threatened. People that are in their right minds won't try to defend the indefensible, will own up and admit to their mistaken beliefs and actions when it's obvious that their beliefs were mistaken and/or wrong, and do whatever they can to rectify and make restitution for harm done when they discover that what they've done has brought harm to others. Folks like Claybar and Preservanation- not to mention folks like Bush or Cheney- apparently don't seem to be capable of that. Personally I think their pride and their ego get in the way of them ever being capable of becoming conscious and aware of what inside themselves motivates them to think what they think and do what they do. It will be their downfall, and hopefully sooner than later. There is a reason why Pride heads the list of the seven deadly sins in the Bible and there is a reason why the saying "Pride always precedes the fall" exists. But they haven't learned that lesson yet. But they will, and I think that lesson is going to driven home in the not to distant future, and I think it's going to involve one hell of a fall.

RRD

[ClayBarham]

All one has to do is check the rabid rantings of those "moderates" with homage-paying pictures of Osama on their posts and you have the whole idea of what they stand for right in front of you. Their picture is worth a thousand words at least. Their words match their sympathies. Hail to Kali, right?

[ECW]

All one has to do is check the rabid rantings of those "moderates" with homage-paying pictures of Osama on their posts and you have the whole idea of what they stand for right in front of you. Their picture is worth a thousand words at least. Their words match their sympathies. Hail to Kali, right?


You truly are a clueless Ann Coulter wannabe, Clay. You conveniently ignore the failings of the Worst. President. Ever. (your boy George) and go back to your little pissy ant screed hoping that someone will listen. You can keep repeating your bleating over Osama and try to utilize your Rovian techniques to smear me but no one believes you. Your credibility here is ZERO.

Proof that you are clueless? Not a single person here would EVER mistake me for a "moderate." I'm a Liberal and you are a dumbshit republican. Shove Kali up your ass, punk.

[gemosological]

All one has to do is check the rabid rantings of those "moderates" with homage-paying pictures of Osama on their posts and you have the whole idea of what they stand for right in front of you. Their picture is worth a thousand words at least. Their words match their sympathies. Hail to Kali, right?


You really are that ignorant, aren't you, Claybar? What ECW is doing is mocking Bush&CO's so- called "War on Terror". After all, it was Bush himself that made the comment that he "doesn't think much about Osama anymore". What does that tell you, brickhead? Here's the guy that gave the order to hijack three jet airliners to hit the WTC, the Pentagon and apparently the WH too, killing thousands of Americans and we have the Idiot Chief of a President sitting in the Oval Office saying he doesn't think much about the bastard that ordered it anymore. And yet you're sitting at your keyboard pissing, moaning and whining that someone would sarcastically and pointedly put an image of Osama into their posts with the words "I'm still free, how about you?" or something to that effect without even being conscious enough to realize the ECW is trying to make an unfortunately valid point. You, instead, get all riled up over it thinking that he- or she- is advocating for Osama and the terrorists, while you remain mute about the idiocy of the president that "doesn't think much about about Osama anymore". I think you got your priorities- not to mention your ethics and morals- wired ass backwards there, Claybrain.

From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself. I could almost believe that except you seem to ignore the President who actually allowed the bin Laden family to leave this country within days of 9/11 and said he "doesn't think much about him anymore". If you're such a Patriot and such a defender of America, Freedom and the "American Way" then how come you aren't raising holy hell about it and demanding answers as to why this is and how it all came to be? I know most of US liberal lefties are.

Personally, you're already coming across to me like a person that is more concerned about yourself than you are your country and thinks that the "American Dream" means having the 'right' to get whatever you can out of the deal without regards to what the consequences of your own self- centeredness may be to your fellow human beings. That makes you, in my eyes, a threat and an enemy to the country that I- and I'm sure ECW- love.

I've come to the opinion and conclusion that maybe this country doesn't need your kind and that "our" country would be better off without you. If a vote were being considered in Congress today to give all those that continue to support Bush&CO and their policies ten thousand dollars each and a one-way plane ticket to the country of each Bush supporters choice I would support it. We really don't need your kind.

RRD

[ECW]

There isn't a country stupid enough to take all those neocons, RRD. Maybe Antarctica.

BTW, Clay, if you are so concerned about OBL, why don't you tell us where he's at?

[preservanation]

Judging from the prater by these two Democrats, I dare say the pattern is not very favorable.

RD:From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself.
Neoliberalism=Mccarthyism.

[gemosological]

Judging from the prater by these two Democrats, I dare say the pattern is not very favorable.

RD:From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself.
Neoliberalism=Mccarthyism.


You're right. It's not. And it's certainly not in the neo-conservative's favor.

Haven't you noticed that there's been a lot of breaking with Bush and the neo-conservative stance among virtually every group on the conservative side of the fence? Hell, it's even happened in the notably conservative Southern Baptist Church. It looks to me like folks like yourself and Claybar are becoming more and more isolated in our society. To a greater and greater extent more rational minds are taking control.

Did you hear about Siegelman, the former Governor of Alabama and Scrushy , the Chief executive of HealthSouth Corp, getting sentenced to prison today? And how his family and are so afraid of the violence he'll face in prison as a result of his tough anti-crime he took when he was Governor of Alabama?

www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/070614/court.shtml

The filing said Siegelman might be harmed in prison because of the anti-crime stances he has taken over the years.

"The climate in the prison system is anti-Don Siegelman," Siegelman's filing said.

And how Scrushy was cryin' and begging the judge not to send him to prison?
And then Scrushy's wife had the audacity to say afterwards:

"I am very shocked," Leslie Scrushy said outside the court. "I will go home and try to explain to my babies what happens in America today."http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/070614/court.shtml

WTF! Her husband commits a crime that when he did it probably knew it was a crime and gets sent to prison and he's whining and bitchin' about it, and his wife has to "explain to her babies what is happening in America these days"!!!

Well, I tell ya what's happening in America these days. The tide is turning and the people- including, apparently, some judges in some notably conservative states- are ceasing to slap the wrists of the rich and powerful and are holding them accountable for their illegal actions and handing them some real time. The time of unbridaled capitalism and for thinking that freedom primarily means having the "right" to become rich is coming to an end.

There was a guy I remember reading about a long time ago that said that the higher up in society your social, legal or governmental status you were the stiffer the penalty for any given crime should be- mostly because the higher up the ladder you are the more visible an example to the rest of society you are and the greater impact on society you have.

I believe his name was Hammurabi.
He was one of my favorite guys!

RRD

[gemosological]

Judging from the prater by these two Democrats, I dare say the pattern is not very favorable.

RD:From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself.
Neoliberalism=Mccarthyism.


Neo -liberalism=McCartyism??? Man, you really are out of touch, aren't you?
I'm from Wisconsin so I know a little bit about McCarthy- and I know there aren't a whole lot of statues commemorating and honoring that man up there. And there's a hell of a difference between a drunken fear mongering paranoid character like McCarthy and the sober-minded liberal intellectual types that I hang out with.

Dear God, man, where do you get your information?!!!

RRD

[preservanation]

Judging from the prater by these two Democrats, I dare say the pattern is not very favorable.

RD:From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself.
Neoliberalism=Mccarthyism.


Neo -liberalism=McCartyism??? Man, you really are out of touch, aren't you?
I'm from Wisconsin so I know a little bit about McCarthy- and I know there aren't a whole lot of statues commemorating and honoring that man up there. And there's a hell of a difference between a drunken fear mongering paranoid character like McCarthy and the sober-minded liberal intellectual types that I hang out with.

Dear God, man, where do you get your information?!!!

RRD

From you labeling someone a "terrorist sleeper agent" if they happen to disagree with your politics, or somewhere like that....

[ECW]

preservanation,

I see you are still ducking the question about your republican party. Would you like me to cite some examples of the crooked, lying, sexually perverted party that you belong to? A simple yes or no will do.

ECW

[preservanation]

Yes, then I'll cite some on the Dem side.
It'll be fun.

[gemosological]

Judging from the prater by these two Democrats, I dare say the pattern is not very favorable.

RD:From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself.
Neoliberalism=Mccarthyism.


Neo -liberalism=McCartyism??? Man, you really are out of touch, aren't you?
I'm from Wisconsin so I know a little bit about McCarthy- and I know there aren't a whole lot of statues commemorating and honoring that man up there. And there's a hell of a difference between a drunken fear mongering paranoid character like McCarthy and the sober-minded liberal intellectual types that I hang out with.

Dear God, man, where do you get your information?!!!

RRD


From you labeling someone a "terrorist sleeper agent" if they happen to disagree with your politics, or somewhere like that....


Who was it that wrote?:

All one has to do is check the rabid rantings of those "moderates" with homage-paying pictures of Osama on their posts…

Want to ask me where I get my information?

Hint: Post #100.


From the way you talk I'm wondering if you aren't one of the terrorists "sleeper agents" yourself. I could almost believe that except…

"...I could almost believe that..."

Almost...

See what happens when you take a phrase out of context and remove the qualifying statement? That is a deliberate deception on your part because it shows you want to portray something said as something quite other than what it was. Know what people call a person who engages in and practices a deception like that? They call them deceivers. And manipulators. And a couple of other things. Just as an aside, do you know what one of things Satan will be in the "End Times", according to the Bible? Satan will be "The Great Deceiver". Hmmm. Imagine that! Whose side are you on anyway?!

Want to know how it is that I can know that about you so soon after joining this forum? Because you focused on that one statement of mine, incompletely at that, and didn't respond to one single point of several that I made in that post- or a few others. I've noticed you respond to ECW in the same fashion. Why is that, Preservanation? Is it because you are unable to find the facts to refute what folks like ECW and I say and ask? Or is it simply because you, deep down inside, fear the things that ECW and I say and ask because you know they're true?

There's plenty of people out there that would probably think you’re a terrible waste of human DNA. My thoughts lean in that direction too.
But not being the murderin' Nazi type I'd prefer to just pay my share of giving you ten grand and sending you and yours happily on your way to a new life in a new land. I may not like folks with attitudes like you but I am at least humane.

RRD

[ECW]

Is it because you are unable to find the facts to refute what folks like ECW and I say and ask? Or is it simply because you, deep down inside, fear the things that ECW and I say and ask because you know they're true?

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2634771/2/istockphoto_2634771_hitting_a_nail_on_the_head.jpg

[ECW]

Spiro Agnew???

LOL

Is it really just the way a liberal brain is wired?

Just how is this supposed to be compelling?

This reminds me of reporting on casualties in Iraq.

If this mindset was DEMOTED back the sports page, you'd be laughed out of the publication as a senseless idiot.

Sorry that you got your panties in a twist about your corrupt Vice President, the only one in history to resign. If this were on the sports pages, we'd be talking about the Oakland Raiders or the Tampa Bay Devil Rays, examples of ineptitude.

After that intro, here's the question, and my point:

COMPARED TO WHAT?

LOL I mean hey! if you want to rewind the entire way back to Spiro Agnew, go for it! Take it back to Lincoln if you must, but please, PLEASE cease trying to imply political corruption only occurs in one political party and is totally absebt in the other!

geeeeez


I made the accusation that the GOP is the party of crooks, liars, and sexual perverts. Your boy preservation didn't think his party (and yours) was all that bad. I'm proving him (and you) wrong. Bear in mind I never claimed Democrats were angels. We're just not as vermin-infested as you are. The arrogance of absolute power and a neocon mindset will do that to you.

[ClayBarham]

I see the comparison now. All those Republicans are crooks and thieves, and when you compare them to that great man at the bottom of your post, His Excellency Osama the Butcher, we should be ashamed of being Republicans. Does this mean the Democrats are more like your idol?

[gemosological]

Spiro Agnew???

LOL

Is it really just the way a liberal brain is wired?

Just how is this supposed to be compelling?

This reminds me of reporting on casualties in Iraq.

If this mindset was DEMOTED back the sports page, you'd be laughed out of the publication as a senseless idiot.

After that intro, here's the question, and my point:

COMPARED TO WHAT?

LOL I mean hey! if you want to rewind the entire way back to Spiro Agnew, go for it! Take it back to Lincoln if you must, but please, PLEASE cease trying to imply political corruption only occurs in one political party and is totally absebt in the other!

geeeeez


Well, Marley, we all know human's of every stripe are often guilty of being corrupt. So why don't you come up with your own comprehensive list of Democrats that have been similarly charged all the way back to Spiro Agnew's time and see how the numbers of the corrupt compare to ECW's? list?

RRD

[ClayBarham]

I could really piss off the Osama idolators and put a big picture of Jesus on my posts, or Jefferson perhaps.

[gemosological]

I could really piss off the Osama idolators and put a big picture of Jesus on my posts, or Jefferson perhaps.


I don't think Jesus would want you to post a pic of Him at the bottom of your posts, Clayhead. Hell, I don't think Jesus would want you posting a pic of Him at the top of your posts. I don't think Jesus would want you posting a pic of Him in your posts at all, seeing as how he would probably be worried that it would tarnish and defile His name. Remember, Jesus didn't have any special fondness for the rich and powerful like you apparently do.

I forget which chapter and verse it is, but isn't there some place in the Bible where it is said that the people will cry out "Lord, Lord..." and Jesus will turn His face away from them saying "You knew me not..." or something to that effect?

Wanna know what my favorite bumper sticker of all time is?

"Jesus is Coming, and boy is He pissed"!!!

Good luck!

RRD

[ECW]

I see the comparison now.

I doubt it. You haven't so far.

All those Republicans are crooks and thieves, and when you compare them to that great man at the bottom of your post, His Excellency Osama the Butcher, we should be ashamed of being Republicans.

Look who is holding up OBL for praise now! You really are clueless. And, yes, you should be ashamed of being a Republican. They are the most crooked, lying, sexually perverted political critters there are. Only NAMBLA members are worse. And not by much.

Does this mean the Democrats are more like your idol?


My idol.

http://library.thinkquest.org/2901/rfk.jpg

Your idol.

http://www.blaskan.nu/Bilder/taliban_george.jpg

[preservanation]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0607/4323.html
In the long investigation leading to the indictments, FBI agents raided Jefferson's office in the Rayburn House Office Building a year ago, resulting in an ongoing legal battle over the constitutionality of the search. Additionally, federal agents found $90,000 in cash that was reportedly to be used for bribes, "wrapped in aluminum foil and concealed inside various frozen food containers" in the freezer of Jefferson's Washington home.

The indictment was embarrassing to congressional Democrats, many of whom ran their campaigns last fall denouncing a GOP "culture of corruption."

[lily]

This thread has been merged with another thread by Staff. If you have a question about this action feel free to PM a staff member.

[preservanation]

ECW,
Dude, you mentioned Ted Bundy!

Serial killer Ted Bundy is known to have campaigned for the Republican Party where, I feel certain, he felt right at home.
What about Ed Geine, Jeff Dahmer and Lizzie Borden?

Jeeze, I bet Bundy just worked for the GOP to find good looking girls who didn't reek of Patchouli.

If you want to play this little game please confine your examples to actual elected officials or they will be stricken from your final tally.

[gemosological]

Score at last count before thread split:
ECW.................53 (deleting Ted Bundy)

Preservanation.....5

49 more to go to match ECW, Preservanation.

What else ya got?

PS:...News Flash...Obama campaign raises 36 million dollars between April and June '07.
Boy, are you guys in trouble, lol!

RRD

[preservanation]

#7, 8.
The Honorable Joe Baca (Democrat-California), chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus allegedly called his colleague, the Honorable Loretta Sanchez a "whore." No crime, but certainly not nice to say.

Sanchez, her sister, the Honorable Linda Sanchez and the Honorable Hilda Solis, who also said she'd been insulted by Baca, quit the CHC. Baca isn't about to apologize, but explains that his chief of staff and lots of women on CHC are women, and they're great.
---------------------------------------
The Honorable Harry Reid (Democrat-Nevada), the Senate Majority leader accepted free ringside seats from the Nevada Athletic Commission to three boxing matches while the state was trying to influence him on federal boxing regulation. Reid, a former boxer and boxing judge himself, defended his actions. "Anyone from Nevada would say I'm glad he is there taking care of the state's number one businesses." Senate ethics rules warn against taking such gifts, particularly on multiple occasions. Senate Ethics manual: "Senators and Senate staff should be wary of accepting any gift where it appears that the gift is motivated by a desire to reward, influence, or elicit favorable official action."

By contrast, Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona) insisted on paying $1,400 for the tickets he shared with Reid in a 2004 championship fight. "I'm not a Goody Two Shoes. I just feel these events are nothing I did wrong," said Reid.

I'm sure Coulter would have a better name for him.

[gemosological]

#7, 8.
The Honorable Joe Baca (Democrat-California), chairman of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus allegedly called his colleague, the Honorable Loretta Sanchez a "whore." No crime, but certainly not nice to say.

Sanchez, her sister, the Honorable Linda Sanchez and the Honorable Hilda Solis, who also said she'd been insulted by Baca, quit the CHC. Baca isn't about to apologize, but explains that his chief of staff and lots of women on CHC are women, and they're great.
---------------------------------------
The Honorable Harry Reid (Democrat-Nevada), the Senate Majority leader accepted free ringside seats from the Nevada Athletic Commission to three boxing matches while the state was trying to influence him on federal boxing regulation. Reid, a former boxer and boxing judge himself, defended his actions. "Anyone from Nevada would say I'm glad he is there taking care of the state's number one businesses." Senate ethics rules warn against taking such gifts, particularly on multiple occasions. Senate Ethics manual: "Senators and Senate staff should be wary of accepting any gift where it appears that the gift is motivated by a desire to reward, influence, or elicit favorable official action."

By contrast, Sen. John McCain (R-Arizona) insisted on paying $1,400 for the tickets he shared with Reid in a 2004 championship fight. "I'm not a Goody Two Shoes. I just feel these events are nothing I did wrong," said Reid.

I'm sure Coulter would have a better name for him.


Preservanation adds a weak one to his list.

Score:

ECW............................53
Preservanation................6

47 more to go to match ECW, Preservanation.

Do you wish to concede yet? You haven't even come close to the depth and impact Republican's have had on society compared to the Democrats yet either.

RRD

[preservanation]

On Friday, March 31, 2000, David Chang of Crosskill, New Jersey was charged with causing false statements to be made by the Senatorial campaign of Robert Torricelli to the FEC, and conspiring with others to defraud the United States. The same indictment charged Chang, in a separate conspiracy, to obstruct the Newark Grand Jury's investigation of the scheme, along with Audrey Yu of Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey. Ms. Yu was also charged with perjury.

On March 2, 2000, Maria Hsia was convicted in D.C. on charges of causing false statements to be submitted to the FEC. The trial had been postponed pending an appeal of a ruling by the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., which had dismissed some of the false statement counts. In May 1999, the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. overturned the ruling and reinstated those counts. The task force dismissed a second indictment on tax charges after a jury in Los Angeles failed to reach a verdict.

On December 17, 1999, Yogesh Gandhi was sentenced to one year in prison for mail fraud, tax evasion, and violating federal election laws by aiding and abetting the making of a political campaign contribution by a foreign national.

On December 1, 1999, Carmine Alampi, a Bergen County New Jersey attorney, entered his guilty plea in United States District Court in Newark, New Jersey, to a one-count Information filed by the Campaign Financing Task Force alleging his illegal campaign contributions to United States Senator Robert Torricelli's 1996 Campaign.

On November 1, 1999, Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie, a Little Rock, Arkansas businessman, was sentenced, after pleading guilty, to a two-count information filed in Little Rock, Arkansas, to three years probation, four months home detention, 200 hours of community service, and a $5,000 fine for violating federal campaign finance laws by making political contributions in someone else's name and by causing a false statement to be made the FEC. Antonio Pan was also indicted with Trie in the District of Columbia, but has not yet been prosecuted because he has remained outside the United States.

On September 15, 1999, Lawrence Penna, the former President of a now-defunct New Jersey securities firm, was charged with violating election laws by funneling illegal campaign contributions to the 1996 federal election campaigns of President Clinton and Senator Torricelli. Penna's case was transferred by agreement to the Southern District of New York where charges relating to his violation of United States' securities laws were pending.

On August 16, 1999, a federal judge sentenced Robert S. Lee to three years of probation and 250 hours of community service for aiding and abetting the making of an illegal foreign campaign contribution to the Democratic National Committee.

On August 12, 1999, former Lippo Executive John Huang pleaded guilty to a felony charge, filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, that he conspired with other employees of the Indonesia-based Lippo Group to make campaign contributions and reimburse employees with corporate funds or with funds from Indonesia. He was sentenced to one year of probation, 500 hours of community service, a $10,000 fine and directed by the judge to continue cooperating with the investigation as a condition of his probation.


In June 1999, Berek Don, former GOP party leader in Bergen County, NJ, also pleaded guilty to making illegal contributions to the Torricelli Campaign. The Don, Alampi, and Penna cases were also investigated by the FBI's Newark Division.

On March 23, 1999, Juan C. Ortiz, the Chief Financial Officer of Future Tech International, Inc., was sentenced to two years probation, $20,000 in fines, and 200 hours in community service for acting as a conduit for an illegal campaign contribution and participating in the reimbursement of eight other conduit contributions.

On December 14, 1998, Johnny Chung was sentenced to probation and 3,000 hours of community service for bank fraud, tax evasion and two misdemeanor counts of conspiring to violate election law.

On November 24, 1998, Howard Glicken, a fund-raiser for the Democratic party, was sentenced to 18 months probation, an $80,000 fine, and ordered to perform 500 hours of community service for violating campaign finance laws.

On November 4, 1998, Franklin Haney was indicted on more than 40 counts, including among others, conspiring with another to defraud the United States by impairing and impeding the FEC and conspiring to violate specific provisions of federal election law. He was acquitted of all charges on June 30, 1999.


On September 30, 1998, Democratic fund-raiser Mark B. Jimenez was indicted in Washington, D.C. on 17 counts of organizing, making and concealing illegal conduit contributions to a number of Democratic campaigns, including the Torricelli Campaign. In December 1998, Future Tech International, Jimenez's Miami based computer sales company, pleaded guilty to tax offenses resulting from its illegal deduction of a $100,000 contribution to the DNC and employee campaign contributions reimbursed through the company's payroll. On April, 15, 1999, Jimenez, who is now in the Philippines, was indicted in Miami on additional charges of tax evasion and fraud. The task force is pursuing Jimenez's extradition from the Philippines.

On July 13, 1998, DNC fund-raiser Pauline Kanchanalak and her business associate Duangnet "Georgie" Kronenerg were charged with conspiring to impair and impede the FEC, and causing the submission of false statements to the FEC. Trial is scheduled for November 2000.

In 1997, the Task Force obtained guilty pleas from Democratic fund-raisers Nora and Gene Lum, and their daughter Trisha, and Michael Brown for illegal fund-raising activities after their cases were referred from Independent Counsel Daniel Pearson. In August 1998, Gene Lum pleaded guilty to filing a false 1994 tax return and falsely preparing Nora's 1994 tax return. After cooperating with the government, he was sentenced in June 1999, to two years in prison. Nora was sentenced to 5 months in a halfway house, 5 months in home detention, and ordered to pay a $30,000 fine. Trisha Lum and Michael Brown each received probation, a $5,000 fine, costs of more than $7,000, and were ordered to perform 150 hours of community service.
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2000/April/172crm.htm
#7-23

[gemosological]

Score at last count before thread split:
ECW.................53 (deleting Ted Bundy)

Preservanation.....5

49 more to go to match ECW, Preservanation.

What else ya got?

PS:...News Flash...Obama campaign raises 36 million dollars between April and June '07.
Boy, are you guys in trouble, lol!

RRD



ECW...49 should read ECW...48 in the first post since the Great Divide.

RRD

[preservanation]

The Honorable Thomas Dodd (Democrat-Connecticut). Censured by the Senate in 1967 for using money from testimonials and campaign contributions for his personal benefit.



The Honorable Hugh Addonizio (Democrat-New Jersey). Served five years in prison for conspiring to extort $235,000 from contractors while he was mayor of Newark.

The Honorable Frank Boykin (Democrat-Alabama). Pardoned by President Lyndon Johnson in 1965 after being placed on probation and fined $40,000 following conviction in a case involving a conflict of interest and conspiracy to defraud the government.

The Honorable Frank Brasco (Democrat-New York). Sentenced to three months in jail and fined $10,000 for conspiracy to accept bribes from a reputed Mafia figure who sought truck leasing contracts from the Post Office and loans to buy trucks.
The Honorable James M. Curley (Democrat-Massachusetts). Convicted in 1946 of using the mails to defraud by accepting retainers on false claims of ability to obtain war contracts. Fined $1,000 and served six months in prison before President Truman commuted the rest of the 6-to-18 month sentence.
The Honorable James M. Curley (Democrat-Massachusetts). Convicted in 1946 of using the mails to defraud by accepting retainers on false claims of ability to obtain war contracts. Fined $1,000 and served six months in prison before President Truman commuted the rest of the 6-to-18 month sentence.
The Honorable Thomas F. Johnson (Democrat-Maryland). Sentenced in 1968 to six months in prison after conflict-of-interest conviction for taking funds to try to influence Justice Department action on indictments in a Maryland savings and loan scandal.

[preservanation]

#31
More??

[preservanation]

The Honorable Andrew J. May (Democrat-Kentucky). Served nine months in prison following 1947 conviction for conspiring to defraud the government and accepting bribes to influence the War Department and other agencies to give contracts to a wartime munitions combined. Pardoned in 1950 by President Truman.

The Honorable Michael (Ozzie) Myers (Democrat-Pennsylvania). Received suspended six-month jail term after pleading no contest to disorderly conduct charged stemming from an incident at a Virginia bar in which he allegedly attacked a hotel security guard and a cashier. (Hey, we're not done with Ozzie).

The Honorable Bertram Podell (Democrat-New York). Sentenced to six months in prison and fined $5,000 for taking money to appear before federal agencies to help Florida Atlantic Airlines obtain a Bahamas route.

The Honorable Adam Clayton Powell (Democrat-New York). House refused to seat him in 1967 after a special committee found he had misused funds of the Education and Labor Committee he chaired. Supreme Court found the action unconstitutional, and he was seated again in 1969 as a freshman and fined #35

[preservanation]

June 15, 2001
Betty Loren Maltese, President of the Town of Cicero, was indicted, along with nine others, by a Federal grand jury on charges of wire, mail, and bank fraud and racketeering. The indictment was the culmination of a five-year investigation headed by the FBI. Maltese and eight co-defendants subsequently were convicted at trial in August 2002.

March 2003
Scott Fawell, Chief of Staff to former Illinois Governor George Ryan, was convicted of racketeering. Fawell became the 65th and highest-ranking defendant in Operation Safe Roads, a five-year investigation of corruption in the Illinois Secretary of State's office under former Governor Ryan.

December 20, 1995
The first indictment was made in FBI Chicago's Operation Silver Shovel, which investigated public corruption in city government. During the course of the investigation, six City of Chicago Aldermen, in addition to twelve other local officials, were convicted of accepting bribes.
http://chicago.fbi.gov/history.htm
#38

[preservanation]

February 14, 1929
The St. Valentine's Day Massacre occurred in Chicago between rival bootlegging gangs. FBI Chicago conducted ballistics tests in the case, leading to the eventual creation of the If you can list Ted Bundy, I'm listing this.

[preservanation]

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/1999/April/137crm.htm
Jimenez is one of sixteen people charged by the Task Force, which was established to investigate allegations of campaign financing abuses in the 1996 election cycle. In addition, FTI itself pled guilty to two counts of tax evasion based on its deduction as business expenses of political contributions. On Feb. 9, 1999, the corporation was sentenced to pay a $1 million fine as well as all back taxes and penalties owed. On March 23, 1999, Juan C. Ortiz, the Chief Financial Officer of FTI, was sentenced to two years probation, $20,000 in fines, and 200 hours in community service for acting as a conduit for an illegal campaign contribution and participating in the reimbursement of eight other conduit contributions.

On December 14, 1998, Johnny Chung was sentenced to probation and 3,000 hours of community service for bank fraud, tax evasion and two misdemeanor counts of conspiring to violate election law. On November 24, 1998, Howard Glicken, a fund-raiser for the Democratic party, was sentenced to 18 months probation, an $80,000 fine, and ordered to perform 500 hours of community service for violating campaign finance laws.

On March 31, 1999, Robert S. Lee was charged in Los Angeles with violating federal election law by giving the Democratic National Committee a $150,000 check drawn from an account funded by a South Korean corporation. On November 4, 1998, Franklin Haney was indicted on more than 40 counts of conspiring with another to defraud the United States by impairing and impeding the FEC and conspiring to violate specific provisions of federal election law. His case is scheduled for trial on June 21, 1999.

On August 5, 1998, the Task Force indicted Yogesh Gandhi on mail fraud charges in San Francisco. A superseding 12-count information filed on March 8, 1999 charged mail and wire fraud, tax evasion, failure to file a tax return and perjury. On July 13, 1998, DNC fund-raiser Pauline Kanchanalak and her business associate Duangnet "Georgie" Kronenberg were charged with conspiring to impair and impede the FEC, and causing the submission of false statements to the FEC. Trial is scheduled for November 1999. Maria Hsia was indicted in Los Angeles on July 7, 1998 on four tax counts. The case is scheduled for trial in May 1999. On February 18, 1998, Hsia was also indicted in D.C. on charges of conspiring to defraud the United States and causing false statements to be submitted to the FEC. On January 29, 1998, Charlie Trie and Antonio Pan were indicted in Washington, D.C. on 15 charges, including obstruction of justice and various crimes relating to campaign financing. Trials in the Hsia and Trie D.C. cases have been postponed pending an appeal of the dismissal of some of the counts in the indictments. Trie was also indicted on November 9, 1998, in Arkansas for obstruction of justice. Trial is scheduled for May 1999.

In 1997, the Task Force obtained guilty pleas from Democratic fund-raisers Nora and Gene Lum, their daughter Trisha, and Michael Brown for illegal fund-raising activities after their cases were referred from Independent Counsel Daniel Pearson.
#52
Oooo, nip and tuck.

[preservanation]

I ran across this in my rummaging. Thought you might be interested. Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many friends of the Clinton's.

1-James McDougal - Clinton's convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr's investigation.

2 -Mary Mahoney - A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.

3- Vince Foster - Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock's Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.

4- Ron Brown - Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown's skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller committed suicide.

5- C. Victor Raiser II- Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane
crash in July 1992.

6-Paul Tulley - Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock,
September 1992. Described by Clinton as a Dear friend and trusted advisor.

7-Ed Willey - Clinton fund raiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.

8-Jerry Parks -He