Ron Paul vs Rudy Guilianni on terrorism

[AlonzoMourning23]

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/17340/1/FOXDebate-Paul-Rudy.wmv/

[NortheastCynic]

Rudy Giuliani should be absolutely ashamed for what he did here, sadly he has no shame. He completely and intentionally distorted Paul's [accurate] commentary which didn't JUSTIFY 9/11. Paul simply said that Muslim extremists attacked us on 9/11 because of our involvement in the ME, that's a friggin fact. Giuliani's claim that they attack us because of our freedom of religion is simply bullshit, and even if it were accurate, it would be no reason to call Ron Paul's patriotism into question, he, unlike Giuiliani acutally served in the military. How dare Giuliani do what he did tonight. I've lost all respect for that man.

-NC

[Labrocca]

Giuliani was right. He is now my #1 candidate. Our freedoms are exactly what offends them. We are infidels to them. When our culture leaks into theirs...they are offended to the point of screaming jihad. If we never sent 1 soldier there it would be the same thing. The Danish riots over cartoons (FREAKING CARTOONS) are a perfect example of the violence these people are bringing to the world due to intolerance.

Also our support for Israel has always been an issue. Do you feel that is wrong as well..helping a people have their own country and safe from genocide by maniacal religious zealots?

I was very dissappointed tonight with McCain..he seemed like a puppet...a stuttering one at that.

[NortheastCynic]

The Danish riots over cartoons (FREAKING CARTOONS) are a perfect example of the violence these people are bringing to the world due to intolerance.
Riots and a fatwa/Sept. 11 style attack are two very different things. I agree that radical Islam and Western culture always contrast/conflict, but no one killed 3,000 Danes because of a cartoon. I also am not quite sure why exactly: Italy, France, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and other liberal democracies have not been attacked on a large scale by terrorist groups if it is truly our freedom that they hate.
Also our support for Israel has always been an issue. Do you feel that is wrong as well..helping a people have their own country and safe from genocide by maniacal religious zealots?I don't believe I've said that, I also haven't said that all of our involvement in the Middle East is wrong, but it is a contributing and major factor to why Muslim extremists hate them...That doesn't make them justified, as Rudy Giuliani attempted to skew Ron Paul's commentary; that's simply a major reason why they do what they do. As I've said here, I used to like Rudy, but I have zero respect for him, what he did was disgusting.

-NC

[bobbylien]

As I've said here, I used to like Rudy, but I have zero respect for him, what he did was disgusting.

-NC

Same here, its a shame because I really liked him. Now its looking like I'm stuck with Hillary. I can't vote for McCain, Gingrich, Thompson(Tommy), Obama, or Rudy. I would vote for Paul but he doesn't stand a chance at winning honestly, I wish he did though. I really don't like many of Hillary's views, especially the universal health care thing but its looking like I might have to vote for her.

[NortheastCynic]

I could vote for Romney if he gets the nomination, but if it's Giuilani of McCain I'm writing-in for Ron Paul.

-NC

[Labrocca]

Riots and a fatwa/Sept. 11 style attack are two very different things.Â*Â*I agree that radical Islam and Western culture always contrast/conflict, but no one killed 3,000 Danes because of a cartoon.Â*Â*I also am not quite sure why exactly: Italy, France, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and other liberal democracies have not been attacked on a large scale by terrorist groups if it is truly our freedom that they hate.



We are a target because we are the greatest country in western civilization. They WANT to draw us into a fight. Attacking Norway? For what purpose? We are a target because of who we are and what we represent. Did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor even though we were not directly involved in WWII yet? People attack those they percieve as enemies. The terrorist are radical and extreme. It began imho with the soviet occupation of Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda is a side effect of that.

Anyways...

[Truth_and_Power]

Riots and a fatwa/Sept. 11 style attack are two very different things.Â*Â*I agree that radical Islam and Western culture always contrast/conflict, but no one killed 3,000 Danes because of a cartoon.Â*Â*I also am not quite sure why exactly: Italy, France, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and other liberal democracies have not been attacked on a large scale by terrorist groups if it is truly our freedom that they hate.



We are a target because we are the greatest country in western civilization.Â*Â*They WANT to draw us into a fight.Â*Â*Attacking Norway?Â*Â*For what purpose?Â*Â*We are a target because of who we are and what we represent.Â*Â*Did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor even though we were not directly involved in WWII yet?Â*Â*People attack those they percieve as enemies.Â*Â*The terrorist are radical and extreme.Â*Â*It began imho with the soviet occupation of Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda is a side effect of that.

Anyways...


If western civilization didn't have its hands continually in their business over there its unlikely they would have attacked us.

[NortheastCynic]

Lab, it's purely coincidence then that out of all the countries I just mentioned, we are the only ones with a significant military presence in the Middle East?Â*Â*I don't buy it.Â*Â*I'm not saying that the terrorists are justified, and neither was Ron Paul, we're both saying that a noninterventionalist foreign policy would give people less of a reason to hate us. I'll say it again, what Giuliani did was disgusting and desperate.

-NC

[NortheastCynic]

Wow, RP just tore Rudy apart on The Situation Room:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy4Eugc0Xls

-NC

[lily]

Thanks NC.....between you and Zo, I may never have to turn on my TV again!:D

[Pookie]

Wow, I feel sorry for the Republicans.
Purrs,

[AlonzoMourning23]

Pookie, it seems like republicans who actually have a somewhat complex view of the world, or even a view beyond "We good, they bad", get ridiculed and attacked.

[Pookie]

Maybe, but if this is all the Republicans have to offer, they have a long way to go.
Purrs,

[Questerr]

We are a target because we are the greatest country in western civilization. They WANT to draw us into a fight. Attacking Norway? For what purpose? We are a target because of who we are and what we represent. *Did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor even though we were not directly involved in WWII yet?* People attack those they percieve as enemies. The terrorist are radical and extreme. It began imho with the soviet occupation of Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda is a side effect of that.

Anyways...


That's a bad analogy. The Japanese attacked the US at Pearl Harbor to remove the threat of the US fleet when they grabbed the Philipines and Indonesia. Those were the actual main targets of the Japanese offensive, not the US fleet. The reason they were going after them was to gain further access to oil since the US had placed an oil embargo on them. In addition, the US was in support of the Chinese nationalist armies that were fighting the Japanese.

So to say that were weren't involved in WWII is intelectually dishonest.

[Labrocca]

NOT DIRECTLY INVOLVED!!!! read what I said again...

And Al-Qaeda knows it can't beat the US in a military fight. What they want is to draw us into the middle east conflict and they have. They would continue attacking us UNTIL we did.

So to say that were weren't involved in WWII is intelectually dishonest.

Spell intellectually correctly and I might believe you.

[micfranklin]

Fact:

Paul >>> Giuliani

[lily]

And Al-Qaeda knows it can't beat the US in a military fight. What they want is to draw us into the middle east conflict and they have. They would continue attacking us UNTIL we did.




Well.....it looks like we played right into their hand.

[NortheastCynic]

Today Ron Paul issued a "Reading list for Rudy"...Absolutely hillarious. Paul said that Giuliani is not fit to be President and wouldn't support him unless he reads these books and "reports back to me". Priceless, here are some of excerpts from the book proving Paul right: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20070524/pl_usnw/ron_paul_campaign_issues__reading_for_rudy

"His [bin Laden] rhetoric selectively draws from multiple sources -- Islam, history, and the region's political and economic malaise. He also stresses grievances against the United States widely shared in the Muslim world. He inveighed against the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, the home of Islam's holiest sites. He spoke of the suffering of the Iraqi people as a result of sanctions imposed after the Gulf War..."


-- 9/11 Commission Report, pages 48-49


"There are a lot of things that are different now [after the invasion of Iraq], and one that has gone by almost unnoticed -- but it's huge -- is that by complete mutual agreement between the US and the Saudi government we can now remove almost all of our forces from Saudi Arabia. Their presence there over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. It's been a huge recruiting device for al-Qaeda. In fact if you look at bin Laden, one of his principle grievances was the presence of so- called crusader forces on the holy land, Mecca and Medina. I think just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to open the door to other positive things."


-- Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Vanity Fair, May 2003


"One of the greatest dangers for Americans in deciding how to confront the Islamist threat lies in continuing to believe -- at the urging of senior U.S. leaders -- that Muslims hate and attack us for what we are and think, rather than for what we do. The Islamic world is not so offended by our democratic system of politics, guarantees of personal rights and civil liberties, and separation of church and state that it is willing to wage war against overwhelming odds in order to stop Americans from voting, speaking freely, and praying, or not, as they wish."


-- Michael Scheuer, Imperial Hubris, page 8


"We assume, moreover, that bin Laden and the Islamists hate us for our liberty, freedoms, and democracy -- not because they and many millions of Muslims believe U.S. foreign policy is an attack on Islam or because the U.S. military now has a ten-year record of smashing people and things in the Islamic world."


-- Michael Scheuer, Imperial Hubris, page 165


"The U.S. invasion of Iraq is Osama bin Laden's gift from America, one he has long and ardently desired, but never realistically expected."


-- Michael Scheuer, Imperial Hubris, page 213


"Although suicide terrorism is virtually always a response to foreign occupation, only some occupations lead to this result. Suicide terrorism is most likely when the occupying power's religion differs from the religion of the occupied, for three reasons. A conflict across a religious divide increases fears that the enemy will seek to transform the occupied society; makes demonization, and therefore killing, of enemy civilians easier; and makes it easier to use one's own religion to relabel suicides that would otherwise be taboo as martyrdom instead."

-- Robert A. Pape, Dying to Win, page 22

"An attempt to transform Muslim societies through regime change is likely to dramatically increase the threat we face. The root cause of suicide terrorism is foreign occupation and the threat that foreign military presence poses to the local community's way of life. ... Even if our intentions are good, anti-American terrorism would likely grow, and grow rapidly."

-- Robert A. Pape, Dying to Win, page 245

"The suicidal assassins of September 11, 2001 did not 'attack America,' as political leaders and news media in the United States have tried to maintain; they attacked American foreign policy. Employing the strategy of the weak, they killed innocent bystanders, whose innocence is, of course, no different from that of the civilians killed by American bombs in Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, and elsewhere."

-- Chalmers Johnson, Blowback, page XV

"The term 'blowback,' which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of 'terrorists' or 'drug lords' or 'rogue states' or 'illegal arms merchants' often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations."

-- Chalmers Johnson, Blowback, page 8Nicely done, Dr. Paul. Don't hold your breath for Rudy's appology.

-NC

[lily]

Well, he's got a sense of humor!

[NortheastCynic]

Indeed he does, I was literally laughing out loud when I read the story for the first time. This was a great move by Dr. Paul and a passive-aggressive way of showing Giuliani and the idiots at the University of South Carolina who mindlessly applauded him just how wrong they are. Paul's views are confirmed by the CIA and ex-government officials such as Paul Wolfewitz. Our government operates under the assumption that our foreign policy has blowback, but if some Congressmen says it during a debate he's ridiculed for it. In this country it's style over substance. God help us.

-NC

[firefox]

Welcome to rule by the majority, NEC ;)

[qwerty]

Giuliani was right. He is now my #1 candidate. Our freedoms are exactly what offends them.

THAT`S NOT TRUE!

They hate USA, cause USA is FORCING them to change their way of life.

Just think if Iraqi would force you to live like they are living, you would oppose that.

[ttriber]

I agree with Guiliani that is exactly why I will vote for him because of his strong views towards fighting terrorism. On the other hand I think Ron Paul is to libretarian to be running on the Republican ticket. I can gurantee you that If Ron Paul wins the primaries we Republicans are gonna be in deep sh*t.

[NortheastCynic]

If Ron Paul won the primary, ttriber, he would be an absolute shoe-in for the Presidency. Every libertarian [15% of the population] would vote for him, along with other groups who traditionally do not vote [college-aged libertarians, anarcho-capitalists, etc.] along with independents and some Democrats.

Sadly he won't get the nomination, and as a result, the Republicans will not win the Presidency.

Not that it matters.

-NC